1909 FA Cup Final

[Slacker]

4 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

A few images from the internet. 

 

 

Made hard work of getting to the Final didn't we.

Thought I had some old cigarette cards , but mine are later.

 

 

Glossop North End in the quarters!

[Merrick's Marvels]

19 hours ago, eardun said:

I’m guessing that Billy Wedlock is the player central on the edge of the six yard box 

Yes it is.

In the centre of the 6 yard box, just to the left of Wedlock as we look, is Joe Cottle our Left Back. 2 months before the Cup Final he won his only cap, playing for England against Northern Ireland in a Home International match.

Billy Wedlock also played in that game. Imagine that - 2 current City players playing together for England, 2 City players born and bred in Bedminster as it happens. Local heroes, indeed. On retirement, both then ran pubs - Cottle 2 pubs on East Street long since gone, Wedlock the, er, Wedlock's! (The Star).

What is it with our England internationals and pubs? Billy Jones, our first ever international, capped by England in 1901, ran The Barley Mow when he retired - a pub that hasn't changed much since 1901!

But we digress.

The City player nearest the foreground, with his back to us, is likely to be our Right Back and tallest player, Archie Annan.

 The other 3 in the 6 yard box are likely to be our Half Backs ("midfield") - Wedlock played in the centre with Pat Hanlin and Arthur Spear (leaning over) either side of him.

Our 2 players furthest to the right are possibly Inside Forwards - Bob Hardy nearest, Andy Burton on the edge of the area.

Harry Clay is in goal, as he was for over a decade.

We were missing 2 key players for the Cup Final - Reuben Marr from midfield and no. 9 Willis Rippon, who scored regularly in this Cup run, most notably 2 penalties in the semi-final against Derby (one in the 90th minute).    

Heroes all !

 

 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Merrick's Marvels

[Spudgun]

Meanwhile in 1909 the gas were playing in the downs league and few would've ever heard of them.

The blue few, some things never change.

[eardun]

3 hours ago, Slacker said:

Glossop North End in the quarters!

That sparked my interest too - smallest town to have played in the English top flight:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossop_North_End_A.F.C.

[eardun]

2 hours ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Yes it is.

In the centre of the 6 yard box, just to the left of Wedlock as we look, is Joe Cottle our Left Back. 2 months before the Cup Final he won his only cap, playing for England against Northern Ireland in a Home International match.

Billy Wedlock also played in that game. Imagine that - 2 current City players playing together for England, 2 City players born and bred in Bedminster as it happens. Local heroes, indeed. On retirement, both then ran pubs - Cottle 2 pubs on East Street long since gone, Wedlock the, er, Wedlock's! (The Star).

What is it with our England internationals and pubs? Billy Jones, our first ever international, capped by England in 1901, ran The Barley Mow when he retired - a pub that hasn't changed much since 1901!

But we digress.

The City player nearest the foreground, with his back to us, is likely to be our Right Back and tallest player, Archie Annan.

 The other 3 in the 6 yard box are likely to be our Half Backs ("midfield") - Wedlock played in the centre with Pat Hanlin and Arthur Spear (leaning over) either side of him.

Our 2 players furthest to the right are possibly Inside Forwards - Bob Hardy nearest, Andy Burton on the edge of the area.

Harry Clay is in goal, as he was for over a decade.

We were missing 2 key players for the Cup Final - Reuben Marr from midfield and no. 9 Willis Rippon, who scored regularly in this Cup run, most notably 2 penalties in the semi-final against Derby (one in the 90th minute).    

Heroes all !

 

 

Thank you. Fascinating. And I never appreciated we had two players playing for England in the same match. What an era that must have been. Runners up in the league too.

[eardun]

This thread prompted me to see what City say about our history on their website. Tony Pulis gets a mention but Alan Dicks doesn’t  

https://www.bcfc.co.uk/club-history/

[chowie]

2 hours ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Yes it is.

In the centre of the 6 yard box, just to the left of Wedlock as we look, is Joe Cottle our Left Back. 2 months before the Cup Final he won his only cap, playing for England against Northern Ireland in a Home International match.

Billy Wedlock also played in that game. Imagine that - 2 current City players playing together for England, 2 City players born and bred in Bedminster as it happens. Local heroes, indeed. On retirement, both then ran pubs - Cottle 2 pubs on East Street long since gone, Wedlock the, er, Wedlock's! (The Star).

What is it with our England internationals and pubs? Billy Jones, our first ever international, capped by England in 1901, ran The Barley Mow when he retired - a pub that hasn't changed much since 1901!

But we digress.

The City player nearest the foreground, with his back to us, is likely to be our Right Back and tallest player, Archie Annan.

 The other 3 in the 6 yard box are likely to be our Half Backs ("midfield") - Wedlock played in the centre with Pat Hanlin and Arthur Spear (leaning over) either side of him.

Our 2 players furthest to the right are possibly Inside Forwards - Bob Hardy nearest, Andy Burton on the edge of the area.

Harry Clay is in goal, as he was for over a decade.

We were missing 2 key players for the Cup Final - Reuben Marr from midfield and no. 9 Willis Rippon, who scored regularly in this Cup run, most notably 2 penalties in the semi-final against Derby (one in the 90th minute).    

Heroes all !

 

 

Do you happen to know the Hotel and/or Pub Sam Hollis ran?

He left in March 1905, and managed a hotel between 1905 and 1911, having previously run a pub between 1899 and 1909. He took over as Bristol City manager for the third time in January 1911, and oversaw the club's relegation from the First Division back to the Second.

[GrahamC]

@Merrick's Marvels This is the badge I’m referring to, I’ve taken this photo on my phone & so if I remember we can discuss tomorrow.

If anyone else can shed any light on it I’d be grateful.

Edited August 18, 2023 by GrahamC

[spudski]

I've got a copy of the 1909 cup final ' programme'...easy to buy online. 

However...this is a rare find. The programme for our semi final game played at Stamford Bridge. When were known as the Bristol Babes. They had some weird humour back then. 

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/graham-budd-auctions-ltd/catalogue-id-srgrah10038/lot-06e26ffb-3a56-4053-831e-aef30136e081

The original 1909 cup final ' programme' set a world record. 

https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2012-05-15/bristol-city-programme-could-fetch-20-000

[Merrick's Marvels]

1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

@Merrick's Marvels This is the badge I’m referring to, I’ve taken this photo on my phone & so if I remember we can discuss tomorrow.

If anyone else can shed any light on it I’d be grateful.

Wow. That's old!

Looks like Sam Hollis in the suit, standing to the Left - he was manager 1897-99, 1901-05, 1911-13.   

No Wedlock there by the looks of it, so it's pre-1905.

So between 1901-1905. (Can't be 1897-99 as that's Ashton Gate and we didn't start playing there until amalgamating with Bedminster in 1900.)  

Harry Thickett played Right Back for us for 1 season 1904-05 before taking over as manager in 1905. Can't see him there, so it's probabaly pre 1904.

So 1901 - 1904. 

Look forward to having a closer look tomorrow   

Edited August 18, 2023 by Merrick's Marvels

[Steve Watts]

13 hours ago, chowie said:

Do you happen to know the Hotel and/or Pub Sam Hollis ran?

He left in March 1905, and managed a hotel between 1905 and 1911, having previously run a pub between 1899 and 1909. He took over as Bristol City manager for the third time in January 1911, and oversaw the club's relegation from the First Division back to the Second.

Could always ask Alan Curbishley...he'd probably know.....

In all seriousness I do love these old photos and to be fair old photos in general. Fascinating to see the changing look of everyday things, whether it be clothes, football supporters, teams, grounds, transport etc. 

[Steve Watts]

23 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Wow. That's old!

Looks like Sam Hollis in the suit, standing to the Left - he was manager 1897-99, 1901-05, 1911-13.   

No Wedlock there by the looks of it, so it's pre-1905.

So between 1901-1905.

Harry Thickett played Right Back for us for 1 season 1904-05 before taking over as manager in 1905. Can't see him there, so it could be pre 1904 in fact.

Look forward to having a closer look tomorrow   

From what I can see I think the first kit to have a badge on it was 1900-1903, which could narrow it down further.  I couldn't see a squad picture in any timescale that matched it though....  Lots of big bushy Magnum PI moustaches there, so this timescale would also fit with turn of the century.

[Curr Avon]

Thank god for The Wayback Machine!

I was fortunate enough to be part of the collaboration between the Supporters Club and Trust and the Manchester United Supporters Trust (MUST) "1909 Replayed" centenary celebration - in April 2009 - at The Crystal Palace Athletics Stadium.

The website still exists in part here: http://web.archive.org/web/20090417052838/http://www.1909replayed.org/home.html

We had a wonderful day, despite a 2-1 defeat.

Enjoy!

Edited August 18, 2023 by Curr Avon

[spudski]

15 minutes ago, Steve Watts said:

From what I can see I think the first kit to have a badge on it was 1900-1903, which could narrow it down further.  I couldn't see a squad picture in any timescale that matched it though....  Lots of big bushy Magnum PI moustaches there, so this timescale would also fit with turn of the century.

That's a good spot. Definitely badges on those shirts, so that will help the chaps narrow down the year on the badge. 

I also noted whilst going down a rabbit hole, a few photographs of City team photos online, from pre 1905 of us wearing white shirts. 

Seems White shirts was our away colour back then. 

[spudski]

16 minutes ago, Curr Avon said:

Thank god for The Wayback Machine!

I was fortunate enough to be part of the collaboration between the Supporters Club and Trust and the Manchester United Supporters Trust (MUST) "1909 Replayed" centenary celebration - in April 2009 - at The Crystal Palace Athletics Stadium.

The website still exists in part here: http://web.archive.org/web/20090417052838/http://www.1909replayed.org/home.html

We had a wonderful day, despite a 2-1 defeat.

Enjoy!

Getty images has loads of photos from that day if you are interested.

[handsofclay]

1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

@Merrick's Marvels This is the badge I’m referring to, I’ve taken this photo on my phone & so if I remember we can discuss tomorrow.

If anyone else can shed any light on it I’d be grateful.

I cannot see Harry Clay the goalkeeper on that picture. The only one who looks a bit like him is the player with the ball between his feet. The picture is a bit fuzzy so I wouldn't swear on it not being him.

The relevance to Clay not being in the picture is that he joined City in November 1901 and was first choice keeper pretty much thereafter during the rise to the First Division and until the drop back to the Second. 

Team photos were obviously taken at the start of the season in August/September. Back then the football season started in September. So with all the other evidence etc I would plump for this being the 1901-02 season team pic taken in August-September 1901 two months before the arrival of Clay.

[Red-Robbo]

On 16/08/2023 at 22:13, Super said:

Looked offside. Did VAR check it?

 

Unfortunately, no one stood still enough for 10minutes for the camera to work...

 

[Merrick's Marvels]

14 hours ago, chowie said:

Do you happen to know the Hotel and/or Pub Sam Hollis ran?

He left in March 1905, and managed a hotel between 1905 and 1911, having previously run a pub between 1899 and 1909. He took over as Bristol City manager for the third time in January 1911, and oversaw the club's relegation from the First Division back to the Second.

Yes, it was called The Southville Hotel, better known to us - until turned into flats recently - as The Imp.

No. 2, Alpha Street, Southville. 

Hollis was the licensee from 1906 to 1911. 

The bit you've quoted above which says "having previously run a pub between 1899 and 1909" is obviously wrong. Good old Wikipedia!

I reckon this should be 1901 not 1909 - which would tie in with his first and second spells as manager. I don't know what pub this was but will keep digging! 

The book by Leigh Edwards and David Woods 'Bristol City FC The First 100 Years' also states he was a local publican after leaving City for a 3rd time in 1913 and remained so until his death in 1942. Need to find out about that, too!

A final note on Hollis:

He was born in Nottingham - same as our current manager.

He was one of the best managers we've had - same as our current manager.

He left in 1899 because of interference from the directors and conditions they attached to the offer of a new contract - er, same as our current manager????? Let's hope not!

He joined local rivals (Bedminster) but lost his job when the two clubs amalgamated - I think we can safely say this one won't be happening.

History might repeat itself in one other way though:

The work Nottingham-born Hollis did laid the foundations for a new manager to come in and lead us into the top flight of English football in 1906, Championship runners-up in 1907, FA Cup finalists in 1909.

What does fate have in store for Nottingham-born Nigel Pearson? Like at Leicester, will it be someone else taking all the glory? Let's hope not!

Edited August 18, 2023 by Merrick's Marvels

[handsofclay]

Further to my previous post, in other team photos of the period it's the captain who is holding the ball. Clay wasn't the captain so I would pretty well rule out the player who looks slightly like Clay. So would plump for 1901-02 season pic taken at the start of that season.

[22A]

1901-03 we wore a badge, then not again until 1949 (when the robin looks similar to Norwich's canary).

http://www.historicalkits.co.uk/Bristol_City/Bristol_City.htm

[Merrick's Marvels]

16 minutes ago, handsofclay said:

Further to my previous post, in other team photos of the period it's the captain who is holding the ball. Clay wasn't the captain so I would pretty well rule out the player who looks slightly like Clay. So would plump for 1901-02 season pic taken at the start of that season.

Yes. My first reaction, before looking at it closely, was this might be the 1901-02 team simply because that was our first season in the Football League - and this would seem to be an appropriate occasion to mark by producing a pin badge. 

As for Clay - I think he is there - take a look at the middle row, 2nd in from the right (in front of the chap who's been distracted by the Away End!) - it's a young looking Clay for sure (he'd have been 20) but I reckon that's him.

He signed in November, debuted in December, so the photo would have to be mid-season but I still reckon that's him and 1901-02 is a strong possibility.   

The badge detectives are helping to narrow it down to this season too.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Merrick's Marvels

[Curr Avon]

39 minutes ago, spudski said:

Getty images has loads of photos from that day if you are interested.

Very interested thanks Spudski. I haven't seen them for a while.

[handsofclay]

2 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Yes. My first reaction, before looking at it closely, was this might be the 1901-02 team simply because that was our first season in the Football League - and this would seem to be an appropriate occasion to mark by producing a pin badge. 

As for Clay - I think he is there - take a look at the middle row, 2nd in from the right (in front of the chap who's been distracted by the Away End!) - it's a young looking Clay for sure (he'd have been 20) but I reckon that's him.

He signed in November, debuted in December, so the photo would have to be mid-season but I still reckon that's him and 1901-02 is a strong possibility.   

The badge detectives are helping to narrow it down to this season too.

Yes that could be him. The pics I have generally of him he is in his mid twenties but the one in this pic could be of a younger, 20 year old Clay with a bushy moustache. 

[Red-Robbo]

12 minutes ago, handsofclay said:

Yes that could be him. The pics I have generally of him he is in his mid twenties but the one in this pic could be of a younger, 20 year old Clay with a bushy moustache. 

 

I've got some memorabilia at home (not purchased on the day by myself, you understand  ).

At 5' 9", Clay was the second tallest on our team that day. Only Annan, our right back at 5ft 10" was taller. Most of the team were 5' 6"/5' 7". Wedlock was 5' 5". JD would've loved to have played back then.

Man U were cheating a bit, I think by having a goalie who was 6' 1.5" and lighter than ours. In fact, they were a considerably larger team than us.

Somethings never change. 

[Bristol Oil Services]

15 hours ago, eardun said:

Thank you. Fascinating. And I never appreciated we had two players playing for England in the same match. What an era that must have been. Runners up in the league too.

Fascinating era, and tantalisingly out of reach to us now with just these few fragments of memories, pictures, memorabilia etc. How Bristol City that our greatest team/era was before television, before radio, and so little to remember it by.

[chowie]

7 hours ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Yes, it was called The Southville Hotel, better known to us - until turned into flats recently - as The Imp.

No. 2, Alpha Street, Southville. 

Hollis was the licensee from 1906 to 1911. 

The bit you've quoted above which says "having previously run a pub between 1899 and 1909" is obviously wrong. Good old Wikipedia!

I reckon this should be 1901 not 1909 - which would tie in with his first and second spells as manager. I don't know what pub this was but will keep digging! 

The book by Leigh Edwards and David Woods 'Bristol City FC The First 100 Years' also states he was a local publican after leaving City for a 3rd time in 1913 and remained so until his death in 1942. Need to find out about that, too!

A final note on Hollis:

He was born in Nottingham - same as our current manager.

He was one of the best managers we've had - same as our current manager.

He left in 1899 because of interference from the directors and conditions they attached to the offer of a new contract - er, same as our current manager????? Let's hope not!

He joined local rivals (Bedminster) but lost his job when the two clubs amalgamated - I think we can safely say this one won't be happening.

History might repeat itself in one other way though:

The work Nottingham-born Hollis did laid the foundations for a new manager to come in and lead us into the top flight of English football in 1906, Championship runners-up in 1907, FA Cup finalists in 1909.

What does fate have in store for Nottingham-born Nigel Pearson? Like at Leicester, will it be someone else taking all the glory? Let's hope not!

Nice, I have a feeling it maybe The Albert, (possibly Prince of Wales for 1913 onwards) as he signed my Great Grandfather and that’s where the family used to drink back in the day.

[Merrick's Marvels]

37 minutes ago, chowie said:

Nice, I have a feeling it maybe The Albert, (possibly Prince of Wales for 1913 onwards) as he signed my Great Grandfather and that’s where the family used to drink back in the day.

Good stuff

Yes, signed him for Bedminster in 1899. They finished above both City and Rovers that season as Bristol's top professional club, before amalgamating with City in the summer of 1900.

Their last ever home game was a 4-1 win against QPR at Ashton Gate. Your great grandfather opened the scoring on 2 minutes, described in the history books as "a fast drive" - whatever that is, a Walshy piledriver perhaps? 

Here's to him. Cheers!

[Merrick's Marvels]

23 hours ago, chowie said:

Do you happen to know the Hotel and/or Pub Sam Hollis ran?

He left in March 1905, and managed a hotel between 1905 and 1911, having previously run a pub between 1899 and 1909. He took over as Bristol City manager for the third time in January 1911, and oversaw the club's relegation from the First Division back to the Second.

There's a website called bristolslostpubs.com 

Takes a bit of wading through, especially on a Friday night after a pint or two! But...

I've found a record of Hollis running 2 pubs in the Old Market area between 1914 - 1928 and 1934 -1938. And talking of great grandfathers, just a stone's throw from where mine worked as a Wheelwright!

I'll keep looking for him running pubs in BS3

[Ivorguy]

My grandfather, who was at the match, always said the England centre forward (Man U) got the better, on the day, of the England centre half (Wedlock) and that in the end settled the game.

PS He never lost his admiration for Wedlock, but he lived to see Atyeo in his heyday and those two were his all time City greats.  I only saw Atyeo and know no one playing for City who can compare, save Billy Wedlock whom I wish I’d seen play

[22A]

On 16/08/2023 at 21:27, Offside said:

Apologies if this has already been posted, but I’ve just seen this colourised picture on fb. Fascinating. I think it’s Billy Wedlock who is standing on the 6 yard line. 

That was 1909, but in 1902 the pitch markings were different as seen here.

This is the 1902 F.A. Cup final-replay between Sheffield United and Southampton, at Crystal Palace. It was the last final to be played with Victorian pitch markings...The six-yard-box, we know today, consisted of two semi-circles. Penalties were taken from anywhere along the solid white 12-yard line. The remaining players had to stand behind the intermittent white line as the kick was taken.

Here is Billy Barnes scoring the winning goal, in a 2-1 victory, for Sheffield United (Att: 33,068)