Chris Hogg on Sound of The City 6:15pm today (13/11/23)

[Red Army 75]

Hope they succeed. But still can’t take to them, especially Hogg. 

[Shauntaylor85]

12 minutes ago, Red Army 75 said:

Hope they succeed. But still can’t take to them, especially Hogg. 

Agree. Looks terrified quite frankly, I really don’t understand why we felt this was an upgrade. 

[ExiledAjax]

42 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Well- I was actually saying it in support of your post not against it so you can maintain your blood pressure within recommended levels.

I thought so. My doctor will be very pleased.

42 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

My point is that someone only has to change a word in a quote to entirely change what was actually meant.

Absolutely. 

[Son of Fred]

6 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Tinnion answers:

"I think everybody in the summer was happy with how we recruited, it's a squad that should be at the top end of the division..."

Mr Tinnion either believes this wholeheartedly (which if so, in my opinion, renders him unfit for post)

Or he's blatently gilding the lily .........(and I'm being kind)

 

I can't get rid of that feeling I now have of mistrust. 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Son of Fred

[GrahamC]

34 minutes ago, JP Hampton said:

Well I’d be amazed if anyone other than you would make that interpretation !!

 I think we all knew what was meant and is probably why “top six” was adopted genuinely (not made up) as an interpretation. 
 

Considering we were 8th in the table at one point, they had to mean higher than that for starters. 

We were 5th when we beat Plymouth & even after the sides around us played on the following night, we were 7th.

It is utter nonsense to try and rewrite history, both the chairman & Tinnion were talking about us making the top six, not effing staying up.

That would mean dropping 9 or 10 places from the position at which we made the managerial change.

Who in their right mind sees that as a justification?

[JP Hampton]

5 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

We were 5th when we beat Plymouth & even after the sides around us played on the following night, we were 7th.

It is utter nonsense to try and rewrite history, both the chairman & Tinnion were talking about us making the top six, not effing staying up.

That would mean dropping 9 or 10 places from the position at which we made the managerial change.

Who in their right mind sees that as a justification?

I thought we might have been 5th, but didn’t want to be accused of “making things up”

Edited November 14, 2023 by JP Hampton

[GrahamC]

Just now, JP Hampton said:

I thought we might have been 5th, but didn’t want to be accused of “making things up”

& that’s why I qualified it with 7th because I’m sure some would have pointed out that the likes of Hull played the night afterwards & so it wasn’t a true reflection of the table.

[JP Hampton]

Just now, GrahamC said:

& that’s why I qualified it with 7th because I’m sure some would have pointed out that the likes of Hull played the night afterwards & so it wasn’t a true reflection of the table.

Talk about semantics!

[BCFC Rich]

12 minutes ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

Agree. Looks terrified quite frankly, I really don’t understand why we felt this was an upgrade. 

I think for me it's pretty hard to get an upgrade on NP for the level we are at, which is why I was so angry with what the board did.

However, with the decision to let NP go made, I wanted someone like this to come in. There aren't more established championship managers than the NP out there, that's even more true when it comes to having previously gained promotions. So, fo ,e. we had to go left field/up-and-coming for there to be any chance of it being a successful decision. We couldn't go for a Rowett - for example.

LM has shown he can build a side, and from the level of anger Oxford fans had at him leaving you've got to feel he has something. Add to that fans of MK and Oxford saying that he improves players (even older players nearer the end of their careers) and that he can be flexible with what he has available - and I think it's better to try and look at those positives for now.

How our board treated NP certainly isn't LM's fault, he is only guilty of wanting to come to our club and being excited about that. I also desperately don't want to see all the work NP did be for nothing, I'd rather NP was here to oversee it, but that obviously can't happen now. So instead I'm being optimistic and hoping for it to be like his time at Leicester and that his foundations lead to success. Or that it's like when Nigel Adkins was sacked at Southampton after back-to-back promotions from L1 - Premier League. That seemed a terrible, unfair, and unjust decision - then they replaced him with the not-so-well-known Mauricio Pochettino.

[Bristol Oil Services]

4 hours ago, beaverface said:

If I asked someone which road they lived on, and they said the top end of "blah blah lane", I wouldn't expect to travel halfway along that road to get to their house.

If I offered someone a bite out the top end of my chocolate bar, I wouldn't expect them to guzzle down half the bar!

If a Chairman of a football club said he expects to be challenging at the top end of the division, then finishing in the top "half" wouldn't be the top end either IMO.

Top end means the end of the measure, or in football terms, the top 6 six places of the division. If your team is a just a few points outside of the top 6 with only a 3rd of the season gone, I'd say that a team in and around ~8th position would constitute challenging the top end - and it's at this point NP was let go.

As has been said many times, the hierarchy at Bristol City have now set expectations for the season, and should be held accountable for their actions.

Top: the highest part or point of something 

End: the extremity or outermost part

Top end: the highest part or point of the extremity or outermost part

Nest egg: an amount of money that has been saved for a special purpose ie the bit where you are at the highest part of the outermost point, or 'there or thereabouts' at least .....

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

The other end to bottom- strictly speaking. Does  top end means top 2? Or top 6? Is 7th top end? I think "top end" is indeed down to interpretation and deliberately vague when referenced by some.

 

However, as a long term BCFC supporter my personal interpretation of top end is anywhere whatsoever higher than 22nd.

Good way of not answering the question but do you think that's what the club means by top end? I'm assuming you won't actually be happy if we finish in 21st place.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

The other end to bottom- strictly speaking. Does  top end means top 2? Or top 6? Is 7th top end? I think "top end" is indeed down to interpretation and deliberately vague when referenced by some.

 

However, as a long term BCFC supporter my personal interpretation of top end is anywhere whatsoever higher than 22nd.

It is open to interpretation to an extent, don't disagree. Could be argued 7th-10th if the playoff tilt is meaningful and we aren't that far away points wise would qualify. Top third to 40%.

Taking you at your word 2nd paragraph, that means NP, and even DH plus LJ mostly succeeded, think we were on the bottom 3 a couple of times under him...let alone before budget etc.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Numero Uno]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It is open to interpretation to an extent, don't disagree. Could be argued 7th-10th if the playoff tilt is meaningful and we aren't that far away points wise would qualify. Top third to 40%.

Taking you at your word 2nd paragraph, that means NP, and even DH plus LJ mostly succeeded, think we were on the bottom 3 a couple of times under him...let alone before budget etc.

I can accept 33% but not 40%, that’s 10th and upper mid table, not the top end. Sort of thing the Few would claim!! Put simply, if NINE clubs out perform you in a 24 team league you ain’t “top end” and unless you were in the shit you don’t sack a manager and pat yourself on the back when you come tenth!!

That said if we come tenth Manning has done alright with this squad.

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

2 hours ago, chinapig said:

Good way of not answering the question but do you think that's what the club means by top end? I'm assuming you won't actually be happy if we finish in 21st place.

 

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It is open to interpretation to an extent, don't disagree. Could be argued 7th-10th if the playoff tilt is meaningful and we aren't that far away points wise would qualify. Top third to 40%.

Taking you at your word 2nd paragraph, that means NP, and even DH plus LJ mostly succeeded, think we were on the bottom 3 a couple of times under him...let alone before budget etc.

I guess my humour is lost on here atm.

I was alluding to the fact that as a long suffering City supporter- a good finish is one where we don't get relegated. I'm not used to much else since the 80's. 

I refer your comments to the statement made by the Honourable member for @ChippenhamRed who did a great post about the trials and lack of tribulations of being a BCFC supporter.

Managers come and go, players come and go but the excitement off the pitch seems more consistent than on it. Yet we go again.

 

[ExiledAjax]

4 hours ago, Son of Fred said:

Mr Tinnion either believes this wholeheartedly (which if so, in my opinion, renders him unfit for post)

Or he's blatently gilding the lily .........(and I'm being kind)

 I can't get rid of that feeling I now have of mistrust. 

And the problem is, whichever he's doing...those are the words that are on record and those are the words he is going to be judged by.

If Tinnion struggles with this then he needs to be supported by people like Barton to communicate with accuracy and honesty. If that's not happening then there is an issue.

[Harry]

12 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

You know, I was wondering whether anyone ever actually claimed that or if I (and everyone else) had misremembered. I went back and looked at the interviews and statements from the early days following Pearson's sacking.

Firstly JL's 2 minute "interview" on 31 October 2023.

Then key quote here is at 01:02 "...[we] ultimately made the decision [to sack Pearson] because we think the squad's good enough and I believe in it. If we didn't then why make a change? You'd just see see things through as they are, but the ultimate reason is I think we've got a really good squad here and and we've got a good chance at competing at the right end of the division this season..."

So he doesn't quite say the words "we have a top 6 squad" but that last line in particular near as means the same thing.

Then BT's longer 5 minute "interview" published the same day, 13 October 2023.

You don't have to wait long here. Barton opens with the question "Brian, John Lansdown's talked about the belief that you all have in the quality of this squad how confident are you that these players can compete at the top of the Championship?" Tinnion answers:

"I think everybody in the summer was happy with how we recruited, it's a squad that should be at the top end of the division..."

No debate there I don't think. Clearly says that this squad should be at the top end of the division.

There's then the ITV interview with GM from 3 November 2023.

https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2023-11-03/we-want-promotion-this-year-bristol-city-board-on-sacking-nigel-pearson

The video opens with Marshall saying "We had a three year plan with Nigel and we the objective for us including Nigel was to be at the top end, challenging at the top end of the table..."

He then says at 2:02 "The club is looking for a manager who we believe will get us to the top end of the Championship. We think we've got a great squad of players, a great fanbase, we've got great facilities. It's a puzzle that someone needs to solve and we're looking for someone who believes, and we believe, will get us into the Premier League."

The next question, at 02:29 is "And that [getting to the Premier League] is still the aim, for Bristol City this season, and for seasons moving forwards?"

GM answers "100% it's the aim for this season and we didn't  feel that we were going to get there unless we made a change and that's one of the drivers. We're less than a third of the way through the season and we feel that we're giving the next manager time to come in and make an impact and hopefully have us challenging towards the top end of the table. We believe this squad of players are very capable of doing that."

So he rambles a little bit, and answers it across several questions, but that final line is there for all to see. It's not quite as definite as BT's words but the hierarchy clearly think this squad is "very capable" of challenging "towards the top end".

I’d written the following direct quotes in another thread last week  

The expectation is promotion. Not bumbling along.   

THIS squad should be at the top end”, “the aim is promotion and we wouldn’t have made the change if we didn’t think we could achieve that”, “there would be no point in making the change now if we were happy to just bumble along for the rest of this season

[cidercity1987]

Don't forget they wanted him out when we were eighth after the Coventry game. They were just waiting for an excuse at that time.

If Manning gets us eighth at the end of the season I will be happy and impressed but ultimately I don't perceive its anything Nige wouldn't have done

[Ian M]

I fully expect the board to back Manning in January, sorry I do of course mean “bring forward Summer business”, if nothing else to try and prove themselves right with the change of hierarchy.

With that in mind I think the central midfield is the area that potentially limits us the most from what @Harry described as how Manning has had his previous teams playing, I’ll call it Manningball. This area also sees a few contracts expiring in the Summer I believe, so would also make sense in a “bringing forward Summer business” point of view.

That would also give us the remainder of the season to see how the rest of the positions adjust to Manningball once we have midfielders able to cope with that style and can potentially provide clarity to our actual Summer business.

I am thinking a CM and a CAM, possibly a second CM too if they don’t feel they have any midfielders within the club able to fulfil the CM roles.

[bcfc01]

1 minute ago, Ian M said:

I fully expect the board to back Manning in January, sorry I do of course mean “bring forward Summer business”, if nothing else to try and prove themselves right with the change of hierarchy.

Yep.

Inevitable.

[Ian M]

1 minute ago, bcfc01 said:

Yep.

Inevitable.

Whilst I won’t think this was fair on Nige, I don’t plan to give the club shit for it as having made the decision to switch and lacking players to adapt to the desired style, it would be insane not to back him in January! 

[Andy082005]

44 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

Don't forget they wanted him out when we were eighth after the Coventry game. They were just waiting for an excuse at that time.

If Manning gets us eighth at the end of the season I will be happy and impressed but ultimately I don't perceive its anything Nige wouldn't have done

Nige wouldn’t have had us finishing 8th

[Mr Popodopolous]

24 minutes ago, Andy082005 said:

Nige wouldn’t have had us finishing 8th

Numerous injuries, still competitive and 8th at that point. As and when injuries reduced we may have found another gear.

If we are judging Manning by exactly the same constraints and criteria...time will tell.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

50 minutes ago, Andy082005 said:

Nige wouldn’t have had us finishing 8th

Out of interest Andy, where do you reckon Nige would’ve had us finish?

And where do you think Manning will?

[Shauntaylor85]

3 hours ago, Harry said:

I’d written the following direct quotes in another thread last week  

The expectation is promotion. Not bumbling along.   

THIS squad should be at the top end”, “the aim is promotion and we wouldn’t have made the change if we didn’t think we could achieve that”, “there would be no point in making the change now if we were happy to just bumble along for the rest of this season

Indeed. So let’s all hold them to account! 

[W-S-M Seagull]

13 hours ago, BCFC Rich said:

LM has shown he can build a side, and from the level of anger Oxford fans had at him leaving you've got to feel he has something. Add to that fans of MK and Oxford saying that he improves players (even older players nearer the end of their careers) and that he can be flexible with what he has available - and I think it's better to try and look at those positives for now.

He's shown he can build a side with significant investment. 

At Lommel he had a huge amount of money to spend at that level. 

At MK 18 players were brought in. I'm not sure how many were his signings in the summer but he signed 8 in January. 

At Oxford he brought in 12 players in the summer, a significant investment for them. 

When people talk about his career, they conveniently forget to mention the above information. 

There is nothing in his career which to me suggests he can work with what he has got. In fact when MK signed 20 players with him so say having little involvement in, he failed miserably at working with what he was given to work with. 

For the immediate future, he has to work with what he has got here. Now is the time for him to prove his coaching ability. 

[RollsRoyce]

I am struggling to understand why the appointment of Manning is deemed different to that of a new manager or coach coming in to save a side from relegation.

The words from the club were in public, they feel that promotion is possible with the squad that we have. There is no need to buy more players or Manning-type players, as we have recruited to a BCFC plan, not a Manning plan. That is also what the club said. Of course, there will be a normal squad evolution, that is football. But the excuses being laid out are not acceptable. You do not get time to save a side from relegation, and Manning has 3/4 of a season to make a strong promotion push. Steve Cooper did it at Forest. 

It is undoubtedly far too early to judge Manning, and he has some skills that deserve their chance to shine. It is far preferable that he does make a great success of his stint at BCFC, and that he can realise the ambition of the board to get promoted this season. If he does not, he and the board will have failed. Well, certainly Tinnion and Lansdown. 

Manning has come in as many players return from injury, he has not had to field a bench with 5/6 players with zero league games starting experience. So he is getting the best, almost, that this squad can offer. Let his ability shine, and by January, we should have a better idea of where this new adventure is heading. He deserves the support and best wishes of everyone. 

But enough of the excuses. His target is promotion, nothing less. 

 

[downendcity]

8 hours ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

Indeed. So let’s all hold them to account! 

The way OTIB is going...........

 

[RedRock]

I really liked Nige. Loved his approach and ‘buy in’ to us, the fact he cleansed the Club and helped make/save the Club a fortune by his management of younger players. At the same time he kept us in the division, comfortably, while we were ‘transitioning’. 

I also ‘get’ that he didn’t suffer fools - as determined by himself - gladly so would have been a challenge to manage for some, and made some mistakes on transfers, subs and tactics. I also see that progress was slow, entertainment value was depressingly scarce and the old chestnut, our massive injury list, had raised its ugly head again.   

The hierarchy, who bravely stuck by Nige when many were calling for his head last Winter, have made an equally brave call now. 

This new management team won’t be perfect either. It seems though now we have a united, not divided, management/hierarchy team, a likely fresh approach on the pitch and all trying to deliver success.

May be, just may be, if we all start pulling in the same direction we may get somewhere. While it may be difficult, given our respect for Nige, we need to get behind this new regime. It’s going to take a while to be comfortable with ‘Manning’s Red Army’ but as with an ex-wife, there comes a time to move on. Analysing the body language and words, in micro-detail, of ‘the heirachy/management’ ain’t going to help. Let’s just see over the next 3 months what happens on the pitch. 
 

 

[Kibs]

9 hours ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

Indeed. So let’s all hold them to account! 

How do you intend to do that, out of interest? 

[downendcity]

1 minute ago, Kibs said:

How do you intend to do that, out of interest? 

Well I'm going to cancel my Reader's Digest subscription.

That'll show 'em!