16 Points, 13 League Games

[mozo]

5 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Excellent post overall and just to pick up on this bit, with a few observations:

- In his most successful tenure at Dons, Manning had just what you stated - 3 quality players at that level (Twine, O’Reilly, Darling). Got playoffs. Without them, despite more time on the grass, failed - plays to your theory.

- More pertinently, the L1-Champ gulf is big - and I know there are outliers such as Ipswich. As sometimes players do, managers can struggle; they’re up against better managers who adapt more readily, change mid game. We accept this happens with players but seem less conditioned to do so with managers, and I genuinely think LM has struggled with the step up and being out-thought in game.

- Broader basis, I think he’s found it to be a higher standard than expected, and  players who were slam dunks at L1 aren’t that at this level so he overestimated either his or the squads ability. Mehmetis the obvious example. Nige had him and saw him at close quarters for 9 months and barely played him. Under Liam, he was a target for Oxford and straight in the side against QPR. He’s been below the standard needed but I’d bet that he would have shone at the Kassam. My feeling is he was judging him at L1 standard as opposed to what was needed at this level

Bottom line is there’s discussion if this is a rebuild. It is - now - but shouldn’t have been. LM is adapting to a new level we have no guarantees he’ll succeed at, while trying to impose a style on a squad not set up fully for it. It might work. But it won’t be a quick fix, and I again make the point as you do that if everyone’s playing the same way you need to be the best at it. I’m not sure we’ll be able to compete to get the players to do that, or wait for the coaching team to develop to a level to achieve it the other way.

 

Let's be real though... Nige wasn't going to get us in play offs this season with players like Bell, Mehmetti, Cornick and Wells to choose from. The last three he barely used. He played Bell in the Mehmetti position and we didn't get much more end product with him.

Nige was a vastly experienced manager who knew everything you need to know about the game, but even he was arguable 3 quality additions away from success. 

Those 3 exceptional players that Manning had previously are what most successful teams need. Maybe if Scott and Semenyo were still here with the work rate and resilience that both Nige and Manning have instilled in the current squad, we would be pushing up the league. 

[bexhill reds]

10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I honestly don’t know, or have much of an opinion on whether he was “on a list” or not…only that we allegedly had a list and Rob Edwards was on it.

I can imagine elements of that Oxford game appealing, quick, incisive attacks in the opening half hour.

I was very open-minded on his appointment.  I hoped he wasn’t a Martin-clone, my research looked like he was much more adaptable, less-rigid.  I don’t think that has changed really.

Can you?

I’m struggling to be honest.

Most games under LM - because of the ebbs and flows, ups and downs of a championship matches, don’t feel a whole lot different to me to phases of games under Nige.  Perhaps those couple of sterile games where we passed it around the back for hours on end felt a bit different, but in attacking third it’s fairly similar.

We were sold a head-coach that would coach those attacking elements. 

Which is why I prefer to talk about two things:

- current form (6 games is my standard)

- overall performances

Too much spin given to “haven't lost in x” / “haven't won in y”, taking a selective point to prove the point as FACT!

I genuinely do think that there has been a visible improvement in what LM is getting out of this team, they now look very comfortable in possession (whereas NP did not think we had the players for possession football), they press cleverly with some of the passing being exceptional, Tanner, Pring, Dickie and to a lesser extent Vyner look so much more comfortable playing in this team, and the football is very pleasing on the eye (mine at least)

Up top remains a problem to be solved but that’s been the case pretty much post-Cotts, but I think if LM can get that enigma solved then someone is going to get an absolute hiding.

 It’s too early to determine if the Lansdowns have finally appointed a good head coach, but I’m liking what I see of late.

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, mozo said:

Let's be real though... Nige wasn't going to get us in play offs this season with players like Bell, Mehmetti, Cornick and Wells to choose from. The last three he barely used. He played Bell in the Mehmetti position and we didn't get much more end product with him.

Nige was a vastly experienced manager who knew everything you need to know about the game, but even he was arguable 3 quality additions away from success. 

Those 3 exceptional players that Manning had previously are what most successful teams need. Maybe if Scott and Semenyo were still here with the work rate and resilience that both Nige and Manning have instilled in the current squad, we would be pushing up the league. 

One part of the whole. I’ve tried to avoid the whole Nige vs Liam piece because it is reductive, and ultimately, who knows. But my gut feeling is that this season (had we kept Scott or replaced him with say a Twine at that stage), there was a shout of the playoffs, and even without him, bearing in mind how the division has shaken up with a lot of mid range teams, that shot was still there. I don’t think it is now (and again, this isn’t about last night which was a decent point).

Ultimately we lessened our chances by changing the manager - it was a small chance in any case, but if you’re appointing someone who wants to change the style and needs time to adapt, as I think we’ve seen, then in any organisation or industry, that rarely leads to an uptick in the short term.

That gets me to the place that if we did want to succeed this season and wanted to replace Nige, it should have been an evolution not revolution candidate. But we plumped for the latter and we are where we are.

None of that says he won’t succeed over a longer term, but base common sense says if you built a side to play one way then try and change it, it’s going to take time. My broader piece here is whether it’ll actually push us forward long term, bearing in mind average championship management tenure and again the need to be “better” at this particular style when it is more the norm and we have less resource.

[Davefevs]

 

22 minutes ago, bexhill reds said:

I genuinely do think that there has been a visible improvement in what LM is getting out of this team, they now look very comfortable in possession (whereas NP did not think we had the players for possession football), they press cleverly with some of the passing being exceptional, Tanner, Pring, Dickie and to a lesser extent Vyner look so much more comfortable playing in this team, and the football is very pleasing on the eye (mine at least)

Up top remains a problem to be solved but that’s been the case pretty much post-Cotts, but I think if LM can get that enigma solved then someone is going to get an absolute hiding.

 It’s too early to determine if the Lansdowns have finally appointed a good head coach, but I’m liking what I see of late.

Hey BR, that’s totally fine, we all see things in our own ways.  I’m know I have certain biases.  Keep up the good debate.

Edited January 31 by Davefevs

[Davefevs]

@Silvio Dante I had a conversation with another OTIBer last season about someone he’d come across in the pro-game who was working in recruitment at an EFL club but had come from another country, and couldn’t believe how badly he’d estimated the level of the league he was in against where he’d come from.  He thought he could bring in a few from his own country and they’d fly.  But they struggled. So little surprise the jump from Lg1 to Champ is so large.

[Bs4Red]

It’s laughable to think NP would have got us anywhere near the play offs. 
 

Edited February 1 by Bs4Red
Bad

[Monkeh]

4 hours ago, Bs4Red said:

It’s laughable to think NP would have got us anywhere near the play offs. 
 

We were 5 points away.....that's pretty close

[Silvio Dante]

5 hours ago, Bs4Red said:

It’s laughable to think NP would have got us anywhere near the play offs. 
 

I don’t think that’s what’s being discussed tbh. It’s more that, having seen what we’ve seen from LM, whether the change in manager reduced or improved whatever chances we did have this season. 
 

And again, you can be of the mind that the appointment improved our chances long term but lessened them short term and there’s nothing contradictory in that.

[TheJudge07]

I think having watched the majority of league games we are no better than we were under Pearson. In fact, the stats say we are worse. There has been no managerial bounce. I am surprised that tippy tappy football between the defenders and midfield is getting so many plaudits. The end product is the key and we do not appear to be creating more chances than we were under Pearson. TBH, I never bought the rubbish stated by the board about Pearson. They should have said it how it was instead of creating a narrative that this is the best City Squad and it should be pushing for promotion. That was never true and those words have put Manning under pressure. Its hard to do a reset midseason. Its even harder to change the playing style.  Its damn near impossible to do it when you do not have the players to do it. Sadly, we do not. We were well short under Pearson and remain so. It is a failure of recruitment but this was hamstrung by FFP. We needed a target man/physical presence up front (in the mould of Wilbraham), a bully in midfield and someone to link the play. I dont think we have any of those types of players on our roster. Twine possibly is the link up player but he is injured.  I also dont like the formation. I have never thought we have the players to play it and it relies heavily on the quality of the wing backs, which we do not have.  Id love to see the stats on our attacking play? Have those improved under Manning? I am not sure they have. The current form table has us 3rd from bottom. Unless we get in 2 or 3 players today, I can see us getting closer to the relegation places than the top 10. It is sadly, another season of disappointment. 

Edited February 1 by TheJudge07

[mozo]

10 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

One part of the whole. I’ve tried to avoid the whole Nige vs Liam piece because it is reductive, and ultimately, who knows. But my gut feeling is that this season (had we kept Scott or replaced him with say a Twine at that stage), there was a shout of the playoffs, and even without him, bearing in mind how the division has shaken up with a lot of mid range teams, that shot was still there. I don’t think it is now (and again, this isn’t about last night which was a decent point).

Ultimately we lessened our chances by changing the manager - it was a small chance in any case, but if you’re appointing someone who wants to change the style and needs time to adapt, as I think we’ve seen, then in any organisation or industry, that rarely leads to an uptick in the short term.

That gets me to the place that if we did want to succeed this season and wanted to replace Nige, it should have been an evolution not revolution candidate. But we plumped for the latter and we are where we are.

None of that says he won’t succeed over a longer term, but base common sense says if you built a side to play one way then try and change it, it’s going to take time. My broader piece here is whether it’ll actually push us forward long term, bearing in mind average championship management tenure and again the need to be “better” at this particular style when it is more the norm and we have less resource.

Yep, I don't think we're too far apart in our thinking tbh. I wanted Nige to be given a big chunk of Scott money to have a real go at promotion this season. We'd still have needed slightly better luck with injuries imo, but we could have continued what NP was building and had a shot.

Bringing Manning in was  unnecessary, and if we have either improved or regressed under LM it's only by a fraction imo. 

We're still not good enough a squad for playoffs unless all the stars in the universe align. Having said that LM's Ciry have recently proven they can compete with Coventry (6th) and Hull (8th) and Watford (9th), so we're not galaxies away.

[Bs4Red]

2 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

I don’t think that’s what’s being discussed tbh. It’s more that, having seen what we’ve seen from LM, whether the change in manager reduced or improved whatever chances we did have this season. 
 

And again, you can be of the mind that the appointment improved our chances long term but lessened them short term and there’s nothing contradictory in that.

This would pretty much be my opinion. 
Think we’ve done okay under LM considering limited training time and changing the system. Still totally agree with the change. 

Shame the powers above couldn’t keep their mouths shut, that’s where all these issues have arose.

[mozo]

21 minutes ago, Bs4Red said:

This would pretty much be my opinion. 
Think we’ve done okay under LM considering limited training time and changing the system. Still totally agree with the change. 

Shame the powers above couldn’t keep their mouths shut, that’s where all these issues have arose.

PR disaster from the City board... who would have thought it... 

[Clutton Caveman]

On 21/01/2024 at 09:35, cellist said:

Let's hope those questions do get asked! I'm sure there will be excuses - they'll argue performances have improved, or the style of play is a work in progress with a change of manager mid-season (their fault mind!). They'll say we young developing squad inexperienced at this level, and that Manning hasn't had a summer transfer window or full pre-season. Some of those things may be true - but that's not what they said in November.

Definitely reasonable to expect a higher points return than previous seasons under Nige given what they said. Last season 59 points finished 14th, season before 55 finished 17th.

To get to 60 points requires us to get 23 points from the next 17. The next four are tough, so looks like we'll have some catching up to do.

I am finding it hard to get worked up on this topic. For me it is clear that we are set up to not go down. Anything better than that is a bonus. With a good striker we could probably be 6 points better off but they cost a lot and we don't do that, so to me our position in table reflects the ambition of the owners and we have to accept it or be habitually angry.

[The turtle]

Watford away was the high point, the game where it came together. It's the only game, and if you do want to finish high up the league playing this way ,  that needs to be the standard.

The problem is we are having to look for signs of improvement, data to prove points rather then a long term swing of both playing well and winning matches.

Coventry was kind of manning time in a bottle.

First half so much promise, i thought played well and made Coventry look bad.

2nd half, for 35 mins, we did nothing, the game became nothing. 

There are so many periods of games where absolutely nothing happens in the name of control, the stadium home or away just dies the game then has nothing to feed off.

passing the ball around in areas where the other team let's you have it is not playing well; it's a mirage. Because as soon as we get to the business end, the creativity/end product has been found wanting (wanting to play football a certain way v utilizing strengths you have; i mean wells and Conway produced results together who knew?)

It's not like we are pulling teams ragged either created golden opportunities.  More goals seem to come from winning the ball high up the pitch which has been a strength all season, transition counters a strength all season, and crosses.

It's not all good, it's not all bad, it's Just different...... And right now it's fair to question what's the point of the different, here today for this season?

Because we lack certain players, all season long games have often been boring where little happens then quality moments. (Selling best player and injuries don't help) Now that seems even more extreme. There are long periods of operation control where you could go for a pint and miss nothing, but every so often in a game you get a period of "oh that's decent" but it's too often fleeting.

We live in an world where our manager preaches control and and balanced emotions, which if you listen closely he's making a good point, but it causes an emotive response from supporters because football is EMOTION heavy. The game thrives on emotion. Take it away and nobody goes anymore.

And then there's the team! They are likable, the effort is there. The will is there. But, to play football this way

X2 strikers (as the two we have don't fit this way)

Right sided attacking 

Left sided attacking

Attacking midfielder

That's a lot of money, because playing this way costs more. 

 

 

 

[Graham76]

14 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

They talked some utter *****

But ,  We were never promised anything , and certainly not top 6 

That’s odd, I recall Jon Lansdown telling us that we had a top 6 squad and Manning was bought in to challenge for the playoffs? 

[Davefevs]

@The turtle 

 

[redsquirrel]

1 hour ago, Graham76 said:

That’s odd, I recall Jon Lansdown telling us that we had a top 6 squad and Manning was bought in to challenge for the playoffs? 

yes but hes a dick and hasnt got a clue

[TheJudge07]

7 hours ago, Bs4Red said:

This would pretty much be my opinion. 
Think we’ve done okay under LM considering limited training time and changing the system. Still totally agree with the change. 

Shame the powers above couldn’t keep their mouths shut, that’s where all these issues have arose.

I dont really understand the point "weve done okay under LM"..... We haven't. He has 5 wins from 17 games. We have 3 points from 15. We are 3rd bottom of the form table. The PPG is relegation form.  This is when the board say, the previous manager was underperforming with a team that should be challenging.  I am all for giving LM time but this is equally dependent on him having the right tools to do the job and if he doesnt then he has to adapt. From what I can see, he only plays one way. The biggest irony being that during our last game we scored 2 goals from direct football.  The next 5 games are critical for LM for the rest of the season and beyond. 

Edited February 1 by TheJudge07

[TheJudge07]

5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

@The turtle 

 

Does this mean then we are passing and pressing more under Manning. Our attacking play is actually worse but our defence is better in terms of denying opposition chances.

 

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, TheJudge07 said:

Does this mean then we are passing and pressing more under Manning. Our attacking play is actually worse but our defence is better in terms of denying opposition chances.

 

Making more passes - yes, but so are our opponents - you may have seen me reference that we’ve gone from 800 pass games to 1000 pass games, I wish the 200 pass difference was all City’s but it’s more like 96 / 104!

Pressing more - no, but when we decide to press (rather than block) we are efficient at exciting it

Attacking play worse - yes, slightly

Defending better - yes, slightly

[mozo]

43 minutes ago, TheJudge07 said:

I dont really understand the point "weve done okay under LM"..... We haven't. He has 5 wins from 17 games. We have 3 points from 15. We are 3rd bottom of the form table. The PPG is relegation form.  This is when the board say, the previous manager was underperforming with a team that should be challenging.  I am all for giving LM time but this is equally dependent on him having the right tools to do the job and if he doesnt then he has to adapt. From what I can see, he only plays one way. The biggest irony being that during our last game we scored 2 goals from direct football.  The next 5 games are critical for LM for the rest of the season and beyond. 

If you go back 6 games we're 17th in the form table.  

If you go back 10 games we're 10th in the form table. 

If City win the next two games your sample of 5 games will be meaningless.

I think the important thing is that we're clearly a tough team to play against (ask Hull, Watford and Coventry, plus West Ham and Forest), but absolutely we need to pick up some wins. It's clear that we're good enough, but I do worry that fatigue might be am issue with all the FA Cup games.

[Tomo]

On 30/01/2024 at 22:44, Tomo said:

17 from 14 now...1.21PPG 

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy with a point against Coventry tonight...

Let's see where we are in a month's time....

17 from 15 now = 1.13PPG

Relegation Form

[Leabrook]

1 minute ago, Tomo said:

17 from 15 now = 1.13PPG

Relegation Form

52 points over a season. Not often that gets a team relegated. 

[Leabrook]

I’ve checked last 8 seasons and 52 has never been relegation. Usually around 18th

[Tomo]

4 minutes ago, Leabrook said:

52 points over a season. Not often that gets a team relegated. 

Granted, but Charlton went down a few seasons ago on 48, so it's fairly close to it.

The side have performed worse in terms of points attained since the change of style. Simples.

Edited February 2 by Tomo

[Leabrook]

Just now, Tomo said:

Granted, but Charlton went down a few seasons ago on 48. 

The side have performed worse in terms of points attained since the change of style. Simples.

Yeah they have. It’s just not relegation form. Close to it for sure. Fine lines though as always. If Max doesn’t make that error Tuesday then the record is about the same I’d guess 

[Tomo]

3 minutes ago, Leabrook said:

I’ve checked last 8 seasons and 52 has never been relegation. Usually around 18th

We lose to Boro and Southampton, and we are 1PPG. I am stunned that you are trying to defend the current form?

[Tomo]

1 minute ago, Leabrook said:

Yeah they have. It’s just not relegation form. Close to it for sure. Fine lines though as always. If Max doesn’t make that error Tuesday then the record is about the same I’d guess 

I think we were on 1.4PPG when the change was made, so not that close really....

[Leabrook]

3 minutes ago, Tomo said:

We lose to Boro and Southampton, and we are 1PPG. I am stunned that you are trying to defend the current form?

Show me where I have tried to defend it? All I did was correct your error 

Edited February 2 by Leabrook

[Leabrook]

I just think @Tomo that if Manning is so bad then criticise him but if he is that bad then you shouldn’t have to make stuff up like it’s relegation form as you should have enough ammunition anyway