16 Points, 13 League Games

[Tomo]

Liam has now had 13 league games in charge and banked 16 points in the process, which equates to 1.23PPG... not great reading is it!

That's below what the average was, this season, before Liam was appointed, but let's try to focus on Liam in this thread and look forward, not back.

Of course, Liam has had 2 great FA Cup games, but it's the league statistics that's the most important.

If we continue at this rate, we will end up on 59 points and probably be positioned in and around 14th, which is the exact same position and points total we achieved last season...

Can we do better over the next 18 games or shall we accept that we are likely to be mirroring last season?

[Numero Uno]

This is my issue. Don’t win the next league game and the record is worse than the sacked manager from an identical number of games yet we have Robins TV getting sound bites left, right and centre from players about how fantastic the new manager is. How do Jon and Sid square Liam’s record off?

We are now fantastically coached I’m advised. First twenty yesterday we were ******* abysmal, looked ANYTHING BUT COACHED then improved.

My message to everyone at the club is forget issuing soundbites and let’s start SEEING what “top end” looks like. Actually DELIVER something decent that isn’t just treading water at Championship level.

Edited January 21 by Numero Uno

[Tomo]

Liam's current statistics prove that Jon and Brian were so inaccurate, claiming that we had a Top 6 squad.

I think we may better last season and possibly hit 65 points, but if we finish with less than 59 points, oh boy, it really shows how deluded the board were in their statement a few months back.

Stats don't lie. I sincerely hope we are better in the next 18 games, but regretfully, we are probably more likely to mirror last season in terms of points and our league table position.

 

[Silvio Dante]

I think what it does do is confirm what many of us thought at the time - we’ve started another project, and one that (as any project) has no guarantees of success. The squad isn’t set up to play fully the way LM wants and what’s probably happened is he’s imposed his style on players who aren’t fits for it.
 

Nothing essentially wrong in that if you’re writing the season off as it gives you more time to adapt/see who can manage, but it is fundamentally a mixed message from what was said at appointment.

One of the things I’ve been consistent on is the need to evolve as opposed to change things too soon. And the reason there is if your changes don’t work you end up with a bloated squad or a mixture of players who don’t fit with each other stylistically.

It’s clear money will need to be spent to get players in to play how LM wants in full, which should in turn improve the ppg. However, I’m unsure that we’ll have the quality to be the best at that style as it will need more investment than I think we’ll put in (Fevs has mentioned if you look at Martin it works better at Soton than Swansea because he has better players), and my gut is that we’ll see a mid table team next year, just with a bit of a different style.

[phantom]

16 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Liam's current statistics prove that Jon and Brian were so inaccurate, claiming that we had a Top 6 squad.

Whilst personally I completely agree with you, perhaps we do have the squad but not the right person to get the best out of them 

[Sir Geoff]

15 goals scored. 7 of those in 2 games.

 

[Fordy62]

I’m fed up of financial constraints changing when a manager who deserves financial backing gets none and then the war chest opening when a new play thing is brought in. We all know that’s the way this is going. 

[MelksRed]

2 minutes ago, phantom said:

Whilst personally I completely agree with you, perhaps we do have the squad but not the right person to get the best out of them 

Must admit, I used to rush back to the car post match to listen to NP's view on the game. Haven't listened to a single LM pre / post game chat....its almost an unconscious 'not my coach' position - we have times where we look really positive going forward....but it takes an age to get going. Feel like it's returned to a comfortable environment, the lack of team depth means that selection is all but guaranteed for some....where are the motivators?

Need some igniting and exciting football, accurate, fast moving to get a crowd going. Taking 3 passes to cover the ground that 1 could have only to play backward (sometimes all the way back to MOL) and concede that ground is not only wasting effort but frustrating to watch

Not intended as a negative post - more a how I see / feel things are.  

[cellist]

The cup games have definitely taken some scrutiny off him and the owners. 4 league games without a win and a tough run coming up - even if the performances improve (I think yesterday was a step up from the previous 3 league games!) the points per game probably won't be looking good by mid Feb.

 

What would be acceptable to most from the next 4? I wouldn't bet on us winning any - Cov are a good side and though we used to win there every year I think those days are gone! Leeds, Boro and Southampton? Let's say 2 draws and 2 plucky defeats - not unrealistic - leaves us with 18 points from 17 games which across a season works out as less than 50 points. Have to hope we'll bounce back with games against QPR, Sheff Wed and Cardiff, but pressure will be on

[Numero Uno]

3 minutes ago, cellist said:

The cup games have definitely taken some scrutiny off him and the owners. 4 league games without a win and a tough run coming up - even if the performances improve (I think yesterday was a step up from the previous 3 league games!) the points per game probably won't be looking good by mid Feb.

 

What would be acceptable to most from the next 4? I wouldn't bet on us winning any - Cov are a good side and though we used to win there every year I think those days are gone! Leeds, Boro and Southampton? Let's say 2 draws and 2 plucky defeats - not unrealistic - leaves us with 18 points from 17 games which across a season works out as less than 50 points. Have to hope we'll bounce back with games against QPR, Sheff Wed and Cardiff, but pressure will be on

This is where it COULD get embarrassing for the two muscateers. If we end the season with less than 60 points and the majority of that season has been managed by someone brought in to “correct the problem” (the previous staff), they have brought a couple in and the injuries are largely clearing up there are bound to be questions asked of the hierarchy.

[And Its Smith]

I don’t expect a coach to be able to come in, change the style almost overnight AND gain more points than his predecessor.  I think he will need until at least a pre season to be able to do that.  And 2-3 more players suited to what he wants.  So far, we have seen the good and bad. I would expect with time that the bad bits are minimised and progress is made.  

[petehinton]

Don’t ruin this with facts, you’ll be a cult of Nigel!

Think it’s pretty clear we need a pre season under him now, but do still think he’s very much still working out what to do. 

16 from 13 with a near enough fit squad (or at least much better than he inherited) isn’t great reading. 

Yesterday was poor to me and certainly not the kindest of fixture lists coming up, although maybe it’ll work in our favour playing against teams who ‘open up’ more. This will certainly be a test of whether that’s true or not. 

[cellist]

Just now, Numero Uno said:

This is where it COULD get embarrassing for the two muscateers. If we end the season with less than 60 points and the majority of that season has been managed by someone brought in to “correct the problem” (the previous staff), they have brought a couple in and the injuries are largely clearing up there are bound to be questions asked of the hierarchy.

Let's hope those questions do get asked! I'm sure there will be excuses - they'll argue performances have improved, or the style of play is a work in progress with a change of manager mid-season (their fault mind!). They'll say we young developing squad inexperienced at this level, and that Manning hasn't had a summer transfer window or full pre-season. Some of those things may be true - but that's not what they said in November.

Definitely reasonable to expect a higher points return than previous seasons under Nige given what they said. Last season 59 points finished 14th, season before 55 finished 17th.

To get to 60 points requires us to get 23 points from the next 17. The next four are tough, so looks like we'll have some catching up to do.

[Numero Uno]

3 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

I don’t expect a coach to be able to come in, change the style almost overnight AND gain more points than his predecessor.  I think he will need until at least a pre season to be able to do that.  And 2-3 more players suited to what he wants.  So far, we have seen the good and bad. I would expect with time that the bad bits are minimised and progress is made.  

I don’t expect great things in all honesty. However that’s not what the Senior Management indicated so surely they have to explain themselves based on their comments if what we expect to happen does happen?

[Galley is our king]

52 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Liam's current statistics prove that Jon and Brian were so inaccurate, claiming that we had a Top 6 squad.

I think we may better last season and possibly hit 65 points, but if we finish with less than 59 points, oh boy, it really shows how deluded the board were in their statement a few months back.

Stats don't lie. I sincerely hope we are better in the next 18 games, but regretfully, we are probably more likely to mirror last season in terms of points and our league table position.

 

You are right, stats don't lie....

Unfortunately, the 2 people now running our club do.....

[beaverface]

One of the things I keep hearing is the lack of time for coaching and doing work on the grass.

Therefore putting aside any of the arguments about whether NP was getting the most from the players, or whether we have a top 6 squad, the fact of the matter is that those at the top made a decision to replace our head coach when there's pretty much no opportunity during the season to get his coaching principles across. 

Got similar hallmarks to what happened at Oxford for LM. Took him all preseason to get the squad playing his way.

I'm expecting that this season is just gonna fizzle out.

[And Its Smith]

3 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

I don’t expect great things in all honesty. However that’s not what the Senior Management indicated so surely they have to explain themselves based on their comments if what we expect to happen does happen?

I’m over worrying about what those people say and do.  Tinnion obviously has his strengths but I don’t think he’s suited to the role he is in.  Jon Lansdown doesn’t seem capable either.  I’d prefer to just judge Manning on what I believe is fair and realistic.  I’ve said before, I’d rather give a manager too long than not long enough.  If there are signs of progress and momentum come September/October then personally, I will be happy.   I can certainly see what you are saying but I just can’t be bothered to waste any emotion or energy on the senior management of this club 

[Bar BS3]

If we match last seasons totals without Alex Scott at our disposal, that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, in an arguably tougher division than last seasons was.

It took NP 2.5 years to get to where we were - it may be harsh to expect overnight improvement on his record without a summer window or pre-season to work on things.

I think with how we are trying to play now, Skyes & Naismith are being sorely missed.

I like the addition of Twine & hope that Sykes' running will compliment him - Likewise, having Atkinson available for Twines set pieces would be a huge boost aswell.

I expect a mixed bag for the remainder of this season & to kick on a bit next season.

NP cleared the decks & paved the way - but didn't feel like we were going anywhere beyond that with him & many forget that he was probably leaving in the summer anyway.

LM is showing foundations of a more controlled & deliberate way of playing, but fully expect that to take time & probably some different personally to make it click.

 

[Natchfever]

55 minutes ago, phantom said:

Whilst personally I completely agree with you, perhaps we do have the squad but not the right person to get the best out of them 

Well here's the thing.

I hope Manning really delivers, but like players coming up from the division below, its entirely possible he isnt up to scratch, and lets be fair, his boss/mentor doesnt exactly have a stellar cv to provide guidance does he.

 

[Cole Not Gas]

Some good posts IMO with the normally negative views expressed by those who are anti Manning, anti the management, anti the club - or so it would appear.

I dont get to every game these days but note a very marked improvement since Pearson's poor record of wins over 30 months. When people talk about stats this season, surely we should wait for Manning to have a few transfer windows and at least one full season. Unfortunately i did get to most of the games in Pearson's first FULL season and it strikes me people have forgotten how awful most of the play was, how badly his subs and tactics were deployed and MOST IMPORTANTLY how many times we all went home feeling sick that we'd just chucked away vital points in the last few mins I know we've done that under Liam as well.

From memory, FGR away was a real low-point with pens, then we had the opener v Blackpool, Luton, Forest, Coventry away chucking a lead, QPR, Preston,Swansea away, Coventry again and so on. And of all low points the dismal showing against Lincoln was when Gould and J.L should have got rid of Pearson - he had been given enough time.

I dont believe we would have beaten Sunderland, Hull, Watford, West Ham and finished the strongest yesterday under the previous regime. In fact i think we would now be bottom 5 or 6 had the club not changed the coach. I know its all about opinions and the forum, like all media, thrive on blame and criticizing anyone in power but i, for one, like our new style. It has positivity, ambition and i like 'Twine The Shine' as a first real signing. I saw Andy Cole's debut and had never seen anyone as fast. Shine may just be another reason to be cheerful - unlike Simpson 30 months ago

 

[FNQ]

50 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

15 goals scored. 7 of those in 2 games.

 

Actually worse 10 of those in 3 games..

The performances have been so hit and miss, the wins over Watford away especially and Boro / Hull at home were good. But bloody hell some of the others Huddersfield, Brum, Blackburn have been really poor.

[bearded_red]

Nothing more ridiculous than comparing what’s happening now favourably with the first few months of Pearson’s tenure.

Have a look at what both managers were inheriting if you wish to make such comparisons. 
 

Or, and I I know this is a mental shout, you could just judge the current manager on what you see before you without worrying about what anybody else has done.

As it happens I think results are broadly fine, it’s absolute bang average and that’s what this squad is. Entertainment however is almost nonexistent.

[W-S-M Seagull]

21 minutes ago, Cole Not Gas said:

Some good posts IMO with the normally negative views expressed by those who are anti Manning, anti the management, anti the club - or so it would appear.

I dont get to every game these days but note a very marked improvement since Pearson's poor record of wins over 30 months. When people talk about stats this season, surely we should wait for Manning to have a few transfer windows and at least one full season. Unfortunately i did get to most of the games in Pearson's first FULL season and it strikes me people have forgotten how awful most of the play was, how badly his subs and tactics were deployed and MOST IMPORTANTLY how many times we all went home feeling sick that we'd just chucked away vital points in the last few mins I know we've done that under Liam as well.

From memory, FGR away was a real low-point with pens, then we had the opener v Blackpool, Luton, Forest, Coventry away chucking a lead, QPR, Preston,Swansea away, Coventry again and so on. And of all low points the dismal showing against Lincoln was when Gould and J.L should have got rid of Pearson - he had been given enough time.

I dont believe we would have beaten Sunderland, Hull, Watford, West Ham and finished the strongest yesterday under the previous regime. In fact i think we would now be bottom 5 or 6 had the club not changed the coach. I know its all about opinions and the forum, like all media, thrive on blame and criticizing anyone in power but i, for one, like our new style. It has positivity, ambition and i like 'Twine The Shine' as a first real signing. I saw Andy Cole's debut and had never seen anyone as fast. Shine may just be another reason to be cheerful - unlike Simpson 30 months ago

 

I don't know where to begin with this. 

You note a very marked improvement? Where's the marked improvement in 4 games without a league win and only 1 goal in 4 league games? 

How was losing on pens to FGR a real low point? 

What strikes me is that in Pearsons first full season here, people forget the shite players he had available to him, yet they use that as a stick to beat him with. 

I've failed to find one single positive in your post about Pearsons time here and I think that says it all so I'm not going to even bother unpicking the rest of the bs you have wrote. 

[mozo]

16 points in 13 games doesn't worry me in the slightest. Manning was never going to propel us up the league and stay there (very few managers could with these players).

We know Nige was harshly dealt with. We know the Lansdowns were chatting shit. But we've got to give Manning a fair crack over a longer period of time.

We're still the same team of tryers. We look good in spells. We look weak in spells. We consistently pick up injuries to key players (Sykes a big miss now). 

In my opinion, performances have been no better or worse than pre-Manning, so I don't feel like it's necessary to criticise him at this stage.

Our fans are a right bunch of moaners, irrespective of the manager, mind. My expectation for this season was mid table and that's where we'll finish.

Edited January 21 by mozo

[Galley is our king]

13 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I don't know where to begin with this. 

You note a very marked improvement? Where's the marked improvement in 4 games without a league win and only 1 goal in 4 league games? 

How was losing on pens to FGR a real low point? 

What strikes me is that in Pearsons first full season here, people forget the shite players he had available to him, yet they use that as a stick to beat him with. 

I've failed to find one single positive in your post about Pearsons time here and I think that says it all so I'm not going to even bother unpicking the rest of the bs you have wrote. 

Absolutely. Joined 24th November 2023 and that was the second post!

You were right with the bs comment, might just be a different bs though....

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, And Its Smith said:

I don’t expect a coach to be able to come in, change the style almost overnight AND gain more points than his predecessor.  I think he will need until at least a pre season to be able to do that.  And 2-3 more players suited to what he wants.  So far, we have seen the good and bad. I would expect with time that the bad bits are minimised and progress is made.  

Fair comment and it's not Liam's fault but that isn't the way the change was sold.

Like it or not he is going to be judged by the claims JL and BT made - top end squad, front foot football and so on. If they say,as they did, that we should be challenging for the playoffs now, not at some unspecified point in the future, it seems reasonable for us to expect that to happen.

If it doesn't Liam will take the rap and the gruesome twosome will likely disappear into the shadows again.

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

47 minutes ago, Galley is our king said:

You are right, stats don't lie....

Unfortunately, the 2 people now running our club do.....

Not just those two. Almost everyone who interprets them does. Depending on which side of a fence people are sat on stats are used to illustrate their argument and it is often quite possible to use the same set of statistics to illustrate opposing arguments. Unless you are a total purist who puts the aesthetics of performance over results then the only statistic that matters for advancement through the league is points and you can stick xg and all other indicators where the sun don't shine. We can't keep regurgitating arguments that seemingly indicate it was wrong to dismiss Pearson (which it was in my view) and employ Manning. It's moot, it's happened and we need to concentrate our efforts on supporting the management and team instead of decrying it. As someone who prefers to look at a glass as half full rather than half empty I see us as moving forward, and I believe we'll finish just inside the top 10. As a tortoise rather than a hare with slow and steady progress we will get there. 

[Midlands Robin]

For those who say we should just judge Liam on the here and now and forget the past, they are correct but to some extent looking back can't be helped.

Imagine if you were going to watch a bang average film. One that you'd not heard anything about in advance but you knew a few of the people in it and thought you'd give it a go. After watching it you'd form an opinion of the film, there'd be bits you enjoyed, bits you didn't and you'd give your opinion to others on what it was like.

Now imagine the same film but you're watching it because you've been told how great it is and that it should be recognised as a brilliant bit of work and that you'll really enjoy it. The film is still the same bang average film as it was before and there will still be bits you'll enjoy and bits you don't but your expectations have now been increased by someone telling you that it's better than it actually is.

That's exactly the problem we have with the Nige / Liam situation. Even though 90 percent of us knew that the board were talking out of their collective backsides, its still expectation management at its worse.

On another note, if you look at some of the clubs that Nige has managed for a decent spell, in the first full season following his sackings at Hull (12/13 season), Leicester (15/16 season) and OH Leuven (20/21 season), all three clubs were promoted or won their league. It seems like Nige is great at setting clubs up but not so great at getting them over the line.

We've got 10 days of the transfer window to go and aprart from brining in Twine on loan and nailing down TGH (who would have been here until the summer anyway), our first team transfer business has been slow so far. I have a feeling it will remain so with maybe 1 more coming in but no big cash signings until the summer. This season has already been parked at board level and they a) know that and b) don't give a flying fig.

The big step forward will come in July and then, starting in the 24/25 season we will really be able to properly judge Liam on what we see on the pitch.

Edited January 21 by Midlands Robin

[And Its Smith]

11 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Fair comment and it's not Liam's fault but that isn't the way the change was sold.

Like it or not he is going to be judged by the claims JL and BT made - top end squad, front foot football and so on. If they say,as they did, that we should be challenging for the playoffs now, not at some unspecified point in the future, it seems reasonable for us to expect that to happen.

If it doesn't Liam will take the rap and the gruesome twosome will likely disappear into the shadows again.

He will be judged BY SOME by the claims JL and BT made. Not by me and not by some others either.  He won’t be sacked if we finish 10th, for example.  Or even 14th I suspect. 

Edited January 21 by And Its Smith

[pillred]

1 hour ago, Fordy62 said:

I’m fed up of financial constraints changing when a manager who deserves financial backing gets none and then the war chest opening when a new play thing is brought in. We all know that’s the way this is going. 

Well, I've seen no evidence of that so far and there are certainly no rumours of imminent transfers that would fit your thinking.