16 Points, 13 League Games

[Red Skin]

7 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

If you listed forum users from top to bottom, patient to non patient I think we would both be near the top! 

I think as a fan base, rather than OTIB, we are a pretty patient bunch.  I think Pearson was quite surprised at times how much fans appreciated the difficult circumstances under which he was expecting to operate. 

Edited January 21 by Red Skin

[And Its Smith]

1 minute ago, Red Skin said:

I think as a fan base, rather than OTIB, we are a pretty patient bunch.  I think Pearson was quite surprised at times, at the fans appreciated the difficult circumstances under which he was expecting to operate. 

Some of us have had 30+ years of training! 

[W-S-M Seagull]

2 hours ago, ray savino said:

LM was given a 3.5 year contract wasn’t he? 
 

Year One (and this season the half year!) Next Season 24/25

I would suspect that he will need a turnover of squad to accommodate players that will perform more comfortably in the roles he wants for his team. Plus a pre-season of coaching on the grass, I reckon we’re going to see next season as the one of change not challenge the top.

Year Two Season 25/26

I would expect we should have a squad and team looking like it is challenging for play-offs.

Year Three Season 26/27

Serious challengers for promotion via play-offs or even auto. (Plus 10 year anniversary celebration of our defeat of Manchester United).

Whether I’m happy about the timescale as a fan is immaterial (unless of course performances don’t markedly improve consistently to give us fans real belief - thereby potential for drop off in attendances). That is all up to the owners and what they need to invest again to back the manager.

Given that it would appear that there won’t be risky huge amounts of cash to spend for a quick go at success and the sort of young players to develop that we seem to want to sign, then inevitably it looks like another significant amount of time and patience that we are going to have to have before we have a tangible squad to become one of the favourites for top six and not just an optimistic outside bet/dark horse.

If Manning doesn’t come up to scratch in this time, or he does and is poached by a bigger club, I would at least hope that the changes the club have decided to make will would mean they would stick to their strategy and appoint a replacement that would suit the style and properly have a succession plan.

Meanwhile if we can’t win trophies or get promotion, let’s hope we can see more performances with the passion and commitment we saw in the cup games, starting on Friday.

I think where I'm at with this is - 

As a fan, it's hard to buy into a 'rebuild' or another project when it was stated that Liam was brought in here to get the best out of the current squad through on the grass coaching. 

Also, most of us probably felt as if a rebuild or another project wasn't needed. Just evolution. 

I hear people saying he needs his own players etc. But I don't know. Surely he needs to adapt to the players hes got? 

This team is better than 1 goal in 4 league games. 

What's currently going round in my mind is, if Manning continues to not get the best out of this squad, how can we be sure that even with his own players, he will get the best out of them? 

We then may find ourselves in a position where we once again have to have a rebuild of the rebuild. 

[Red Skin]

Just now, And Its Smith said:

Some of us have had 30+ years of training! 

I'm one of those too.  Gotta be a factor.

[mozo]

One thing that is absolutely guaranteed is that when City win, OTIB will be full of posts praising Manning, and every time we lose or don't play well, he'll be criticised. It will be perpetual 'I told you so'. Always been that way, always will be.

Edited January 21 by mozo

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

I think it's fair to say that any style will work better with better players.   The quality of player is always going to put a ceiling on the level of success you will have.   

I do think the style we are moving to under Manning has a better chance of getting more from the players.  Given our level of finances compared to teams with parachute payments, we need to find a way of playing that elevates the team over the individual.  When the emphasis is on the system they play to is elevated, you do not rely on star performers to get success.  (You still need intelligent, coachable decent players though).  The upshot being that when someone does come in to buy your better performers the team isn't overly reliant on them because the strength is the system.  You also know what you need to replace them because you know what the system needs. You aren't looking to replace an 'Alex Scott', you are looking to replace the role he does in the system.  Succession planning for the here and now (and if we are looking to upgrade because we get promoted) becomes easier at least in terms of being clear about what's needed.  Same goes for academy recruitment and coaching.  No guarantee you'll find those players with your finances within any given window though.  

Maybe that's why Scott Twine hasn't reached the heights he did under Manning?  Because he needs some structure within which to play his best football.  Maybe that's why Oxford aren't fairing so well without Manning now.  Because the same players aren't able to perform as well collectively without the system and patterns of play he was coaching?

I am not a fan of this threads.  I appreciate that results and points on the board is ultimately to only objective measure of success, but sneaking an extra couple of points here and there isn't a real measure of a team's development for me.   We all know promotion challenging football when we see it - as we did under Cotts - without needing to check the points tally per game.

I don't know if Manning is the answer, but I am happy to give him the rest of the season, a couple of transfer windows, and a full preseason to really make a full assessment.  For me, I have seen enough to be encouraged so far. 

Just my view, but I think you’ve got more chance as a non-PP club of getting to the PL over PP clubs by playing something other than “Martin-ball” (ala Manningball).

My opinion, was that we would be better off trying to be Luton style than Southampton.  We don’t have the resources to match the quality of “footballers” as them, so try something different.

Brentford prove your point thought (), but they did it through excellence in recruitment by and large..

I think strength is in players not systems.

That slightly contradicts my Luton point, but Luton weren’t competing with those Martin-ball teams for recruitment, they were looking at vastly different pools of players, predominantly cheaper ones too.

[And Its Smith]

3 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I think where I'm at with this is - 

As a fan, it's hard to buy into a 'rebuild' or another project when it was stated that Liam was brought in here to get the best out of the current squad through on the grass coaching. 

Also, most of us probably felt as if a rebuild or another project wasn't needed. Just evolution. 

I hear people saying he needs his own players etc. But I don't know. Surely he needs to adapt to the players hes got? 

This team is better than 1 goal in 4 league games. 

What's currently going round in my mind is, if Manning continues to not get the best out of this squad, how can we be sure that even with his own players, he will get the best out of them? 

We then may find ourselves in a position where we once again have to have a rebuild of the rebuild. 

To answer your last point, to get around that we would just to have to appoint a replacement who coached similar patterns of play and could work with the squad.  A head coach model rather than a manager model. This, in my opinion, is our first real step towards that model 

[ChrisJ]

25 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Absolute effing horseshit. Sane as the other poster who alluded to that who I’ve forgotten…pillred was it?

Nobody wants him to fail.

You are not taking into account the situation that Manning came into.  A well executed rebuild by Nige.  Therefore the expectations of time it will take to move us forward is lessened.

Holden didn’t get time did he?

I’m happy with Manning, but imho, I’ve seen a lot of smoke blown up his arse without much substance.  As you’ll know I’m massively into my stats.  They show very little to justify anything other than we pass the ball a bit more, we block a bit more than press.  The fundamentals of goals, quality of chances both for and against are remarkably similar.  I’d summarise my 13 game view, as we are playing a bit differently for the same results.

I’m happy with that.  I do expect the trend to start going up at some point this season though.  The replacement of Nige with LM wasn’t to stand still, was it?  It was ridiculous to point at promotion, admittedly.  But somewhere in between???

I recon there are definitely some of our fan base all be it small who want us to lose games just so they can say Nige was right etc - I’m not saying everyone just a ver minor number! And for what it’s worth I don’t think manning is the next big thing or the next sir Alex but he needs time!!! That is not an unreasonable expectation so he can stamp his footprint on the side. I have no issue with anyone saying what they think however some people here are being slightly unrealistic!!! 

[And Its Smith]

2 minutes ago, ChrisJ said:

I recon there are definitely some of our fan base all be it small who want us to lose games just so they can say Nige was right etc - I’m not saying everyone just a ver minor number! And for what it’s worth I don’t think manning is the next big thing or the next sir Alex but he needs time!!! That is not an unreasonable expectation so he can stamp his footprint on the side. I have no issue with anyone saying what they think however some people here are being slightly unrealistic!!! 

I don’t think anyone wants us to lose but if we do lose they like the ammunition it gives them to moan about whatever their agenda is. 

[cidercity1987]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Just my view, but I think you’ve got more chance as a non-PP club of getting to the PL over PP clubs by playing something other than “Martin-ball” (ala Manningball).

My opinion, was that we would be better off trying to be Luton style than Southampton.  We don’t have the resources to match the quality of “footballers” as them, so try something different.

Brentford prove your point thought (), but they did it through excellence in recruitment by and large..

I think strength is in players not systems.

That slightly contradicts my Luton point, but Luton weren’t competing with those Martin-ball teams for recruitment, they were looking at vastly different pools of players, predominantly cheaper ones too.

Also with most clubs trying to play 'Manningball' with younger new coaches , it strikes me our best chance was to be slightly different. A la 'Pearsonball'

Our shiny new intelligent coach ain't gonna be so good in a division of shiny new intelligent coaches 

[ChrisJ]

2 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

I don’t think anyone wants us to lose but if we do lose they like the ammunition it gives them to moan about whatever their agenda is. 

Ok maybe fair.

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

I don’t think anyone wants us to lose but if we do lose they like the ammunition it gives them to moan about whatever their agenda is. 

I can’t believe how a couple of Nige-moaners have suddenly become Liam-moaners and Nige-luvvers!  I think they just like to moan about the current!

[W-S-M Seagull]

2 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

Also with most clubs trying to play 'Manningball' with younger new coaches , it strikes me our best chance was to be slightly different. A la 'Pearsonball'

Our shiny new intelligent coach ain't gonna be so good in a division of shiny new intelligent coaches 

I posted earlier on in the season that Luton and Sheffield Utd didn't get to the premier league by playing the best football. 

They got there on hard work, desire, determination, belief etc. In this modern day, those things are really over looked but they are massive. They are probably over looked because you can't put a stat on them! 

It's how we got to the play off final before. 

We saw against West Ham in both games that when the fans and the players come together, something special can happen. 

[Silvio Dante]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Just my view, but I think you’ve got more chance as a non-PP club of getting to the PL over PP clubs by playing something other than “Martin-ball” (ala Manningball).

My opinion, was that we would be better off trying to be Luton style than Southampton.  We don’t have the resources to match the quality of “footballers” as them, so try something different.

Brentford prove your point thought (), but they did it through excellence in recruitment by and large..

I think strength is in players not systems.

That slightly contradicts my Luton point, but Luton weren’t competing with those Martin-ball teams for recruitment, they were looking at vastly different pools of players, predominantly cheaper ones too.

 

3 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

Also with most clubs trying to play 'Manningball' with younger new coaches , it strikes me our best chance was to be slightly different. A la 'Pearsonball'

Our shiny new intelligent coach ain't gonna be so good in a division of shiny new intelligent coaches 

It’s a point I’ve made a few times - if everybody (or a large percentage) of teams want to play the same way, then you either need better players in that system than anyone else, or a better coach (including most key in game adaptability) than anyone else in order to finish near the top.
 

In the first point, we aren’t going to be buying the best players - we simply don’t have that muscle - and we certainly don’t have it within this squad who aren’t set up to play that way. Our reliance then seems to be that LM is a markedly better coach than the other teams who want to play this way have. And whether people like/don’t like rate/don’t rate him that's undoubtedly a gamble.

[And Its Smith]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I can’t believe how a couple of Nige-moaners have suddenly become Liam-moaners and Nige-luvvers!  I think they just like to moan about the current!

Absolutely.  Bizarre 

[Red Skin]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Just my view, but I think you’ve got more chance as a non-PP club of getting to the PL over PP clubs by playing something other than “Martin-ball” (ala Manningball).

My opinion, was that we would be better off trying to be Luton style than Southampton.  We don’t have the resources to match the quality of “footballers” as them, so try something different.

Brentford prove your point thought (), but they did it through excellence in recruitment by and large..

I think strength is in players not systems.

That slightly contradicts my Luton point, but Luton weren’t competing with those Martin-ball teams for recruitment, they were looking at vastly different pools of players, predominantly cheaper ones too.

Maybe so, but it all depends what you want from football. 

I want to see decent football over getting promotion.  Be nice to get promotion playing decent football though.   To perfectly honest I was more annoyed with the amount of Watford fans in the Tobacco Factory making it harder for me to get a pint in than anything I seen during the game!  Bloody liberty! 

I guess the point I was making is we can't compete to sign 'star' players.  We will also struggle to keep our 'star' player so we have to develop a team that better collectively that the individuals that make it up.  Easy to say, but not easy to do.  

[Roger Red Hat]

59 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Skies starts all day long

I think something is clouding your judgement...

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, Red Skin said:

I guess the point I was making is we can't compete to sign 'star' players.  We will also struggle to keep our 'star' player so we have to develop a team that better collectively that the individuals that make it up.  Easy to say, but not easy to do.  

As we always get so close to agreeing on everything, have a “like”. I think our diagnosis is identical here but we may disagree on the medicine - so that’s something!

[Red Skin]

2 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

As we always get so close to agreeing on everything, have a “like”. I think our diagnosis is identical here but we may disagree on the medicine - so that’s something!

Hmmm, yes it seems that way.   I've always played the long game on medicine too.   Lifestyle changes to affect the long-term wellbeing rather than running to the docs for a quick fix to cure the latest ailment before lurching on to next crisis!  

[ray savino]

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

So if we are looking at a 3.5 year time line as Rays post articulates

I’m not particularly happy with yet another rebuild that could take at least 2 years or more. But without substantial investment (in terms of our clubs financial position) I can’t see it being anything but a gradual process again with the way Manning wants to play. 

Coventry look to be well ahead in terms of a settled philosophy/strategy, but then they’ve been building with Robins in charge since their dark days of League 2. In contrast we seemed to flip flop between trying to find the coach and style we think we need.

Pearson was a firefighter. It was a shitshow by the end of LJ/MA/DH, with too many underperforming players and a bloated wage bill to match. NP and Gould helped put the club on a more stable footing without suffering our usual relegation after such a disappointing previous period. To be fair, LJ had his moments (with good backing), but ultimately it all fizzled out and failed.

Now we seem a relatively comfortable if not somewhat underwhelming mid table team, at least there’s the chance to build now. That is largely down to the NP /Gould stewardship.

Sad the way NP leaving was handled, we needed his type at the time. We needed him 8 years younger I believe. But now it was decided we needed a new coach to progress fair enough. Pearsons sacking isn’t LM’s fault, he’ll need backing and time from the Board and the fans.

If it doesn’t work out, then the decision makers will have to take ultimate responsibility for the directions and decisions they have made. We as fans can’t decide the manager. The owners can and do. If it comes off they’ll take the success, if it doesn’t they’ll take the flak.

 

[The Journalist]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Absolute effing horseshit. Sane as the other poster who alluded to that who I’ve forgotten…pillred was it?

Nobody wants him to fail.

You are not taking into account the situation that Manning came into.  A well executed rebuild by Nige.  Therefore the expectations of time it will take to move us forward is lessened.

Holden didn’t get time did he?

I’m happy with Manning, but imho, I’ve seen a lot of smoke blown up his arse without much substance.  As you’ll know I’m massively into my stats.  They show very little to justify anything other than we pass the ball a bit more, we block a bit more than press.  The fundamentals of goals, quality of chances both for and against are remarkably similar.  I’d summarise my 13 game view, as we are playing a bit differently for the same results.

I’m happy with that.  I do expect the trend to start going up at some point this season though.  The replacement of Nige with LM wasn’t to stand still, was it?  It was ridiculous to point at promotion, admittedly.  But somewhere in between???

As you say, while all the footbally stats are pretty similar, one bit I would be interested in is the average age of the starting XIs fielded in the first part of the season compared to under Manning.

It feels to me like we’re fielding more experienced teams with fewer minutes for some of our academy players, but I may be wrong…

[redkev]

47 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Some of us have had 30+ years of training! 

Make that 50+

[italian dave]

6 hours ago, Tomo said:

 

 but let's try to focus on Liam in this thread and look forward, not back.

 

That's going well then....

[W-S-M Seagull]

8 minutes ago, The Journalist said:

As you say, while all the footbally stats are pretty similar, one bit I would be interested in is the average age of the starting XIs fielded in the first part of the season compared to under Manning.

It feels to me like we’re fielding more experienced teams with fewer minutes for some of our academy players, but I may be wrong…

Thats my observations too. 

Manning is also getting less out of a squad which has a greater availability than it did under Nige. 

[Cole Not Gas]

4 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I don't know where to begin with this. 

You note a very marked improvement? Where's the marked improvement in 4 games without a league win and only 1 goal in 4 league games? 

How was losing on pens to FGR a real low point? 

What strikes me is that in Pearsons first full season here, people forget the shite players he had available to him, yet they use that as a stick to beat him with. 

I've failed to find one single positive in your post about Pearsons time here and I think that says it all so I'm not going to even bother unpicking the rest of the bs you have wrote. 

Thats fine if you dont agree with my opinion. To write it off as BS isnt that helpful though. Happy to explain on a one to one if you would prefer.

Some really good follow up posts from Midland Red, Ray Savino and LondonBristoliam however. 

Re FGR and Lincoln; they were both cup exits which are real lows if you want your team to be be doing well in competitions as we did under SC, LG and now hopefully LM. If you attended those two games you'd know how embarrassed all fans felt at the end. You may not find too many positives in any post on Pearson; he had a hard job, like most managers he was well paid to do that job. He was the 2nd biggest disappointment of all time (after Coppell) but that doesnt mean he did a bad job; Rather i had very high expectations and hopes and he failed to deliver anywhere near what i hoped for and expected of such an experienced coach. I think his win rate was very low 30s during 30 months which is so far behind even Johnson whose was about 40% 

What did Pearson do well? A number of things IMO; bringing on Scott and Pring would be high on my list. Using W-S-M (ok he inherited all three) to get as many goals as they did was to his credit. Believing in Max and Zak who have been two of our best this season would also be to Pearsons credit.

As you may not want a balanced view from an older supporter who rarely posts, i'll spare you my list of negatives.

Do i think Manning is the right person for the job? I hope so, but i really dont know. I like his calm approach, and his first signing, albeit a loan, in Twine. As others have said, to quote stats over 4 games is pointless but over a full season or two one can make a better judgement on the quality of a coach

[ray savino]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

The problem for me RS is that Manning’s 26/27 was Nige’s 24/25….why delay that by 2 years.  I really expected Nige to settle on the progress path this season, ready to attack promotion next season.

FWIW I expect Manning to give it a shot next season too.  He doesn’t get 3 years / x windows.  He came in on firm foundations ready for a push.  I didn’t expect it this season.

 

Yep. All I was trying to say was that in reality I think it could be a timeline of Manning’s contract. I agree, I think it took NP longer to build and he was a year behind, because it was a bigger mess than he envisaged and how hard it was to get rid of the big wage contracts still on the books.

Such is the nature of the Championship you can never rule out everything aligning, few injuries, etc. and we have dream season next year. But I think it is going to take sometime to instill that consistency in the playing squad unless he can get in some key players in, with a decent amount of financial backing.

[phantom]

5 hours ago, MelksRed said:

Must admit, I used to rush back to the car post match to listen to NP's view on the game. Haven't listened to a single LM pre / post game chat....its almost an unconscious 'not my coach' position - we have times where we look really positive going forward....but it takes an age to get going. Feel like it's returned to a comfortable environment, the lack of team depth means that selection is all but guaranteed for some....where are the motivators?

Need some igniting and exciting football, accurate, fast moving to get a crowd going. Taking 3 passes to cover the ground that 1 could have only to play backward (sometimes all the way back to MOL) and concede that ground is not only wasting effort but frustrating to watch

Not intended as a negative post - more a how I see / feel things are.  

I was saying exactly the same before the game yesterday, there are so many times a pass is on but we over play it a lose the opportunity 

[Silvio Dante]

7 minutes ago, The Journalist said:

As you say, while all the footbally stats are pretty similar, one bit I would be interested in is the average age of the starting XIs fielded in the first part of the season compared to under Manning.

It feels to me like we’re fielding more experienced teams with fewer minutes for some of our academy players, but I may be wrong…

I’m not sure there will be a marked difference, and for avoidance of skewing things you probably need to take the injury crisis Cardiff game out. It’s pretty much the same squad - maybe Bell getting less minutes but to counter that Cornick getting less. You’d also have to remember that Tommy was injured under Nige and Wells playing so there’s a 10+ year swing there already.

The big differences are clearly Yeboah dropping out of the squad and not filling the bench with academy players, and going with 8 subs instead. Average age though I’d guess will be pretty similar in terms of the starting lineup.

(NB - One of my lower concerns with LM is youth usage. He made the same comments at Oxford “look to the academy” as he did on appointment here but didn’t bring any through. If the average age does go up as your instinct it’d crystallise that)

[MelksRed]

4 minutes ago, phantom said:

I was saying exactly the same before the game yesterday, there are so many times a pass is on but we over play it a lose the opportunity 

It's about bravery / willingness to back ourselves......we have a 'safety first' / possession based approach which (normally) yields few opportunities (admit that this has started to change)...but, more importantly, invites teams onto us applying pressure. Whilst we look generally robust at the back......We will come undone through needless pi55ing with the ball at the back.

Millwall last minute goal is evidence of this.

Need also to be more clinical / ruthless when we have our opportunities- again, about backing ourselves.

Edited January 21 by MelksRed

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

I agree because for me the reason that 2024/25 is the target season for a "push" isn't because it would have been Pearson's 4th full season in charge.

It's always been the target season because factors other than the identity of the manager align in that season. Finances, squad age, FFP freedom etc. Those things don't change when we swap from one manager to another. 

Secondly, it's the CLUB that should be aiming for a push in 24/25. That timeline should be part of the meta-plan that the directors and owners have, and managers should be recruited in order to give that plan the best chance of success.

If that's why Manning was recruited then on. But as you say, that means he should be expected to orchestrate a proper assault on the top 6 next season.

Tend to agree with this albeit some backing of NP ie one or two more signings such as thw profile in the summer then someone like Twine on top may have had a dual effect.

1) A bit more depth for when injuries hit hard especially in the Autumn to early winter.

2) A happier NP.

Both of these would've helped the side and perhaps club IMO, which may also add the boost of no necessary churn and experimentation with a new manager mid season.

ie Are we back 3 or back 4?

Is Knight deeper or higher.

Tanner and McCrorie Centreback and Wingback or Fullback.

Etc.

Edited January 21 by Mr Popodopolous