16 Points, 13 League Games

[Sir Geoff]

10 minutes ago, ChrisJ said:

Don’t know.what you’re talking about? 

He isn’t sweep cleaning that’s just not true.

You forgot to mention the 2 clubs where changing to a Manning clone has been an unmitigated disaster.

[W-S-M Seagull]

3 minutes ago, JP Hampton said:

So what are you going to go about it then. We are either patient and watch or we give up and stop it support and I’m not doing that. 
I’ve said it before I’ll support LM and any manager, until I feel he’s not the best thing for the team and at present I can’t in all honesty say that and to be fair neither can you. 

I'm not gonna just shut up and accept it. I and others will no doubt continue to hold then to account. 

I always support the team. I find it a bizarre concept that people seemingly can't be critical of the owners whilst supporting the team. It's not one or the other. 

[ChrisJ]

4 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

You forgot to mention the 2 clubs where changing to a Manning clone has been an unmitigated disaster.

In what way is rooney a manning clone? 

[Sir Geoff]

10 minutes ago, Jeez said:

We all know/knew it’s never a top 6 squad, I don’t know why this keep getting quoted, it obvious spin & repeating is as preposterous as the statement itself.

Change of coach was never going to revolutionise our season - I can’t imagine anyone thought for a minute it would.

But I think we can all agree there are green shoots with Liam & more importantly the board like him so he will be backed which is good for us as fans.

 

Re para one. The reason it gets repeated is because there are many fans, including me, who will never forget the lies and nonsense JL and Tinnion spouted.

Para 2. Two people thought it a good idea to derail our season, in order to revolutionise it.

Para3. Green shoots, really. I'm seeing the same branches as before and as this thread alluded to those shoots look like they need a bit of tlc.

1 minute ago, ChrisJ said:

In what way is rooney a manning clone? 

Hired to play front foot attacking football.

[Davefevs]

City’s league goals this season:

Pearson: 15

Pens: 0

Build-up Play: 6

Transition / Press: 3

Set-pieces: 6

Fleming: 1

Set-Pieces: 1

Manning: 15

Pens: 3 (2 from Press / 1 from Build-up play)

Build-up Play: 5

Transition / Press: 5

Set-Pieces: 2

@JoeAman08

 

[ChrisJ]

Just now, Sir Geoff said:

Re para one. The reason it gets repeated is because there are many fans, including me, who will never forget the lies and nonsense JL and Tinnion spouted.

Para 2. Two people thought it a good idea to derail our season, in order to revolutionise it.

Para3. Green shoots, really. I'm seeing the same branches as before and as this thread alluded to those shoots look like they need a bit of tlc.

Hired to play front foot attacking football.

You’re trying too hard comparing Rooney to manning I mean what planet are you on. One of the greatest playing careers in recent years v someone who never played pro…..a bloke who has managed big teams v manager who has only managed smaller sides, one who is new to coaching other has 20 years in the bank learning. Very very strange comparison but that’s what people do, no one will take you seriously spouting nonsense like that.

[Sir Geoff]

Just now, ChrisJ said:

You’re trying too hard comparing Rooney to manning I mean what planet are you on. One of the greatest playing careers in recent years v someone who never played pro…..a bloke who has managed big teams v manager who has only managed smaller sides, one who is new to coaching other has 20 years in the bank learning. Very very strange comparison but that’s what people do, no one will take you seriously spouting nonsense like that.

I'm not comparing. It's called sarcasm. You were the one quoting all the teams hiring Manning clones.

The only comparison between Rooney and Manning is they were both hired to provide front foot attacking football. Rooney has already been sacked and Beale won't be long at Sunderland which is why I questioned you ignoring those two job changes.

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

City’s league goals this season:

Pearson: 15

Pens: 0

Build-up Play: 6

Transition / Press: 3

Set-pieces: 6

Fleming: 1

Set-Pieces: 1

Manning: 15

Pens: 3 (2 from Press / 1 from Build-up play)

Build-up Play: 5

Transition / Press: 5

Set-Pieces: 2

@JoeAman08

 

Just to add to my own post as I can’t edit it…I do see improvement in the efficiency of our press (under LM) even though we go into a block to readily imho.

But what I think the above highlights is that it’s not the “pretty pattern” football that’s getting us goals, and I suspect most of us thought this would be the case based on the type of manager (head-coach) we appointed.  It’s a bit of a myth!  Transition / press has accounted for 7 / 15 goals if you include pens!

Hopefully we will increase our set-piece goal tally with TGH and Twine on them.

[JP Hampton]

15 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I'm not gonna just shut up and accept it. I and others will no doubt continue to hold then to account. 

I always support the team. I find it a bizarre concept that people seemingly can't be critical of the owners whilst supporting the team. It's not one or the other. 

I don’t think you’re understanding what I’m saying. I’ve never said, don’t hold the bosses to account, but I’m just talking about harking back, because in the words of NP “we are where we are”.  
 

 If you actually read my original post I did say exactly what you’ve said here about being able to be supportive of the team whilst being able to be critical of managers etc  

 

[BrizzleRed]

I was, and still am totally against Nige's sacking and also reckon we could have improved under him by this point, through having injured players back and also a transfer window.  That's all water under the bridge now though, so it's totally down now to what LM is achieving.  

Like many others, I never bought all that shit about us having a top 6 squad, so I feared the worst when Manning arrived with no Championship experience.  Let's be fair, it could have gone horribly wrong and he could have proved totally out of his depth at this level.  Whilst he hasn't pulled up any trees, results have been fairly steady and the football has generally been reasonable and pretty good in patches.  I think our defence has looked more vulnerable under LM, but we also seem to be a little more attack minded now.

So in short, have we made massive improvements, to achieve our "top 6 squad" potential under LM?   The points haul and table tells us, most definitely not.

Are our performances worse than under Nige?  Imho no they aren't and whilst the points per game are roughly similar, I think the football has been a little more entertaining under LM.

I think for a newbie to the Championship, Liam Manning is currently doing a decent job whilst he finds his feet, so fair play to him for that.  We'll see where we are at the end of the season to have a better picture on the wrongs and rights of the decisions made by the owner and junior.  At the moment, I'm just glad it hasn't turned out to be the total shitshow I initially feared.  

[Mr Popodopolous]

12 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

I'm not comparing. It's called sarcasm. You were the one quoting all the teams hiring Manning clones.

The only comparison between Rooney and Manning is they were both hired to provide front foot attacking football. Rooney has already been sacked and Beale won't be long at Sunderland which is why I questioned you ignoring those two job changes.

Ironically an older, more experienced manager in Mowbray sacked by  club 1, may resolve the mess and stabilise if not build at Club 2.

[1team]

In conclusion the change we were sold hasn't happened. We replaced a manager who was  making a purse out of a sows ear with a manager who is making a half purse half sows ear out of the same sows ear. We'll done BCFC if there was a balloon d'or for kicking yourself in the bollocks we might finally win something.

[ChrisJ]

23 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

I'm not comparing. It's called sarcasm. You were the one quoting all the teams hiring Manning clones.

The only comparison between Rooney and Manning is they were both hired to provide front foot attacking football. Rooney has already been sacked and Beale won't be long at Sunderland which is why I questioned you ignoring those two job changes.

I ignored those 2 job changes because they weren’t relevant to the point as you should be able to work out. Rohl young up and coming manager, Plymouth bloke young up and coming manager manning young up and coming manager milwall young and upcoming manager Swansea young upcoming manager QPR upcoming manger. Rooney ex derby and Washington Beale ex QPR and Rangers spot the difference it ain’t rocket science. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, ChrisJ said:

I ignored those 2 job changes because they weren’t relevant to the point as you should be able to work out. Rohl young up and coming manager, Plymouth bloke young up and coming manager manning young up and coming manager milwall young and upcoming manager Swansea young upcoming manager QPR upcoming manger. Rooney ex derby and Washington Beale ex QPR and Rangers spot the difference it ain’t rocket science. 

Just because something is fashionable a bit of a fad doesn't mean it is the right call.

McKenna so far so the gold standard. Carrick is doing well, started amazingly but this season more of a challenge. Middlesbrough are also quite a big club at the level too. Unsure he's done enough to be linked with PL jobs yet, Carrick but linked he is.

Giles, Akpom and Archer a huge hole but again he is backed reasonably well.

You could also have cited Corberan who I do rate but WBA seem quite well resourced currently in terms of ability and experience albeit lacking in absolute numbers.

Edited January 21 by Mr Popodopolous

[italian dave]

1 hour ago, Galley is our king said:

Sorry, they both said we have a squad capable of being at the top end of the table and we didn't want to wait until the end of the season for that so we acted now.

Complete bollox.

It’s not “bollox”. Unusually for this place, it’s “fact”.

As I said, it’s splitting hairs, because, yes, both talked about top end, challenging, that sort of thing. But they neither of them said anything as explicit as top 6. 

[The turtle]

3 hours ago, cidercity1987 said:

Of course not everything but Palace's attendances in the Champ are poor. Their display yesterday seemed very Charlton esq.

Football is about dreaming. Palace have stopped doing so, operation survival mode. It also doesn't help their main rivals lead around 1000000 categories in how to run a football club. They are who everyone wants to be 

Brighton fans go to a game knowing; we probably aren't going to keep a clean sheet today, but our team will go for it. They are in the euro hunt.

Palace fans are being clear! Simply survival, it's not enough, this is not the dream. Could it bite them? Absolutely!  But that's the deal with dreams. But is it really asking so much to go to. Stadium and enjoy the football your team wants to play.

I mean fans aren't stupid. They know backs to the will be needed in a season. They know teams have off days! And in terms of palace fans they've done their bit making an atmosphere. How their fans feel, to me it's on the board.

 

[cidercity1987]

7 minutes ago, The turtle said:

Football is about dreaming. Palace have stopped doing so, operation survival mode. It also doesn't help their main rivals lead around 1000000 categories in how to run a football club. They are who everyone wants to be 

Brighton fans go to a game knowing; we probably aren't going to keep a clean sheet today, but our team will go for it. They are in the euro hunt.

Palace fans are being clear! Simply survival, it's not enough, this is not the dream. Could it bite them? Absolutely!  But that's the deal with dreams. But is it really asking so much to go to. Stadium and enjoy the football your team wants to play.

I mean fans aren't stupid. They know backs to the will be needed in a season. They know teams have off days! And in terms of palace fans they've done their bit making an atmosphere. How their fans feel, to me it's on the board.

 

The banner said 'wasted potential on and off the pitch'

What a load of nonsense. If you compiled a list of overachieving clubs (both now and historically) compared to fanbase, stadium, etc etc then Palace would be right near the very top of the list. 

[1team]

7 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

The banner said 'wasted potential on and off the pitch'

What a load of nonsense. If you compiled a list of overachieving clubs (both now and historically) compared to fanbase, stadium, etc etc then Palace would be right near the very top of the list. 

Describes us perfectly.

[Red Skin]

2 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

In the first point, we aren’t going to be buying the best players - we simply don’t have that muscle - and we certainly don’t have it within this squad who aren’t set up to play that way. Our reliance then seems to be that LM is a markedly better coach than the other teams who want to play this way have. And whether people like/don’t like rate/don’t rate him that's undoubtedly a gamble

Clearly player recruitment is key, but I've always wondered why there hasn't been more of a focus on recruitment of other aspects of clubs set ups?   Head caches/mangers are obvious ones which do get focus, but why isn't there more head hunting at other coaching levels within clubs or is this happening and just not registering on my radar?   

Similarly player recruitment/analyst  teams.  It's so crucial to a club's success, you'd think that clubs would invest more in poaching from other successful set ups?  For example Peterborough always seem to have an eye for a player.  Most of these post are still relatively poorly paid as far I can tell, so wouldn't it be an obvious tactic to raid the clubs lower down the leagues that seem to do this well?   Surely, the same principles apply it's just the calibre of player you are looking at is different? 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, Red Skin said:

Clearly player recruitment is key, but I've always wondered why there hasn't been more of a focus on recruitment of other aspects of clubs set ups?   Head caches/mangers are obvious ones which do get focus, but why isn't there more head hunting at other coaching levels within clubs or is this happening and just not registering on my radar?   

Similarly player recruitment/analyst  teams.  It's so crucial to a club's success, you'd think that clubs would invest more in poaching from other successful set ups?  For example Peterborough always seem to have an eye for a player.  Most of these post are still relatively poorly paid as far I can tell, so wouldn't it be an obvious tactic to raid the clubs lower down the leagues that seem to do this well?   Surely, the same principles apply it's just the calibre of player you are looking at is different? 

Does happen. Dan Ashworth, credited with strong work at West Brom and notably Brighton now at Newcastle, one example.

Think Everton went and got Steve Walsh from Leicester too..This perhaps didn't work so well.

[The turtle]

2 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Thats my observations too. 

Manning is also getting less out of a squad which has a greater availability than it did under Nige. 

Which is exactly what everyone and anyone could have said, well everyone bar those who made the decision it's normal for most Managers.

 

Yesterday at HT, I felt responded well to going behind. But at half time. If a tad lucky to be level thanks to max

 in the 2nd half, our best stuff came from corners, set pieces, deliveries into the box. Asking questions of their defence. (What i want to see)

But i also don't remember any clear cut chances created from build up football.

I didn't feel is was a particularly great game with attacking incisive football, but at the same time it was well above poor. And importantly city were trying to win, as were Watford at the end.

[cidercity1987]

2 minutes ago, 1team said:

Describes us perfectly.

Exactly, definitely not Palace ffs

[Silvio Dante]

9 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

Clearly player recruitment is key, but I've always wondered why there hasn't been more of a focus on recruitment of other aspects of clubs set ups?   Head caches/mangers are obvious ones which do get focus, but why isn't there more head hunting at other coaching levels within clubs or is this happening and just not registering on my radar?   

Similarly player recruitment/analyst  teams.  It's so crucial to a club's success, you'd think that clubs would invest more in poaching from other successful set ups?  For example Peterborough always seem to have an eye for a player.  Most of these post are still relatively poorly paid as far I can tell, so wouldn't it be an obvious tactic to raid the clubs lower down the leagues that seem to do this well?   Surely, the same principles apply it's just the calibre of player you are looking at is different? 

We’re getting dangerously close to a Tinnion conversation here. What you say makes perfect sense and is fully within his remit. The devil in me says the better people he employs, the more likely it is they’ll disagree.

The more practical side says that it takes guts and a very strong philosophy to not have the head coach be the main influencer of an overall club. This is why most coaches bring their own teams at the lower levels (Hogg/Krause here). We do clearly have coaches that have been retained such as Mountain and Cisse, but I think your broader question is why are they retained, and should we recruit better.

On the recruitment front totally agree. I’m not sure how effective our setup is - I think for example Dickie was signed following a Sykes conversation rather than anything else. Hopefully Murphy/Stokes are green shoots.

 

[The turtle]

16 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

The banner said 'wasted potential on and off the pitch'

What a load of nonsense. If you compiled a list of overachieving clubs (both now and historically) compared to fanbase, stadium, etc etc then Palace would be right near the very top of the list. 

Because they have potential to be so much more.

By wasted potential, they mean they've stopped. Blinded by money of survival. They've settled. This is their peak, the end of the story 

One day, city will get there. Year 1, survival, year 2 survival. But at some point fans ask, and now? What now?

Palace are meh! Don't entertain, don't threaten europe. exist to survive. I mean even Bournemouth want more.

[RedRoss]

Manning or Nige are/we're both doing decent with what they have/had. We're just a bang average side. Not surprising considering the lack of spend over 3 seasons.

We needed to spend more in the summer and that was a mistake not doing so. I know fans always want new additions but literally everyone said thought so asides from the club apparently. We went into the season very light and now are trying to 'trade' in the toughest transfer window. Whilst at the same time reiterating the goal of the PL, top 6 squad ect.

 

[Red Skin]

4 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Hopefully Murphy/Stokes are green shoots.

Murphy, quite literally

Have we actually signed Stokes? 

[Son of Fred]

1 hour ago, BrizzleRed said:

I was, and still am totally against Nige's sacking and also reckon we could have improved under him by this point, through having injured players back and also a transfer window.  That's all water under the bridge now though, so it's totally down now to what LM is achieving.  

Like many others, I never bought all that shit about us having a top 6 squad, so I feared the worst when Manning arrived with no Championship experience.  Let's be fair, it could have gone horribly wrong and he could have proved totally out of his depth at this level.  Whilst he hasn't pulled up any trees, results have been fairly steady and the football has generally been reasonable and pretty good in patches.  I think our defence has looked more vulnerable under LM, but we also seem to be a little more attack minded now.

So in short, have we made massive improvements, to achieve our "top 6 squad" potential under LM?   The points haul and table tells us, most definitely not.

Are our performances worse than under Nige?  Imho no they aren't and whilst the points per game are roughly similar, I think the football has been a little more entertaining under LM.

I think for a newbie to the Championship, Liam Manning is currently doing a decent job whilst he finds his feet, so fair play to him for that.  We'll see where we are at the end of the season to have a better picture on the wrongs and rights of the decisions made by the owner and junior.  At the moment, I'm just glad it hasn't turned out to be the total shitshow I initially feared.  

Things can get a bit skewed in one's head by a couple of particularly dismal performances -

In reality our last nine (league & cup) 4 wins - 3 draws - 2 losses...... doesn't look too shabby on paper.

Edited January 21 by Son of Fred

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, The turtle said:

Because they have potential to be so much more.

By wasted potential, they mean they've stopped. Blinded by money of survival. They've settled. This is their peak, the end of the story 

One day, city will get there. Year 1, survival, year 2 survival. But at some point fans ask, and now? What now?

Palace are meh! Don't entertain, don't threaten europe. exist to survive. I mean even Bournemouth want more.

They looked like they were moving to a more exciting future under Vieira but it stalled, they sacked him and Hodgson returned.

Then Hodgson had a reasonable run of games but suddenly had Eze, Zaha and Olise all available at once and they became free wheeling, free scoring to cruise to survival. Some strong attacking numbers too.

They appear, minus Zaha too to have reverted to type now.

[mozo]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

City’s league goals this season:

Pearson: 15

Pens: 0

Build-up Play: 6

Transition / Press: 3

Set-pieces: 6

Fleming: 1

Set-Pieces: 1

Manning: 15

Pens: 3 (2 from Press / 1 from Build-up play)

Build-up Play: 5

Transition / Press: 5

Set-Pieces: 2

@JoeAman08

 

Dave has the number of passes increased since Manning took over?

As you know, I've got nothing against Nige and didn't support his sacking, but I did feel that we played too many wasteful percentage balls when we could have kept possession and been more patient under his management. My eyes are telling me that under Manning, whilst we play percentage balls down the channel or crossfield when we are boxed in, we tend to try more to play our way out more often now. Personally, I much prefer to see the ball on the grass and I think I see nice passing patterns more often than pre-Manning. So I was wondering if that's supported by the stats?

[Davefevs]

37 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Does happen. Dan Ashworth, credited with strong work at West Brom and notably Brighton now at Newcastle, one example.

Think Everton went and got Steve Walsh from Leicester too..This perhaps didn't work so well.

Walsh, who recommended a young Haaland to Everton!!!

17 minutes ago, Son of Fred said:

Things can get a bit skewed in one's head by a couple of particularly dismal performances -

In reality our last nine (league & cup) 4 wins - 3 draws - 2 losses...... doesn't look too shabby on paper.

I think you can always spin a run depending on when you start it from.

I pretty much rigidly stick to 6 game form.  I prefer to stick to League too, but occasionally I’ll break my own rules (hypocrite, eh?).

So, for me LM is on P6 W2 D2 L2 (League)

If you include Cup it’s P6 W1 D3 L2

But that’s just me.