16 Points, 13 League Games

[Mr Popodopolous]

45 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Completely agreed. Crude, simplistic and I’d add naive as well.  It’s as if the manager has 100% control over results which simply isn’t the case 

 

15 minutes ago, Fjmcity said:

Good point, people always seem to forget there’s a team opposite you also trying to win a game and having the subsequent conversations on their own forums.

2-1 tonight and it’s a great win for manning and although blunt up front it would have been our good football getting us to that result, keeper spills a shot and it’s a negative on Manning’s ppg.

for me and where we are at the moment it’s about the eye test, and I prefer watching us now under manning, although the same killer pass/finishing problems persist. 

this conversation continues under this banner because of the ludicrous statements by the board on the capabilities of the squad. Why not just say it’s a different direction? Guessing there could be something in this about inciting the wrath of the unions or whatever for an unfair sacking (does that happen?) either way Any gains then this season would have been a delightful bonus positive, it’s so frustrating and the board gave so much ammo

Tbh tonight was good, I'd argue both Watford games too albeit there is some debate on the home game v them..Cup games obviously, Hull game, Middlesbrough and Sunderland, we espcislly had some luck in the latter so good and bad, Birmingham not the worst in some ways..

..It's a mixed bag isn't it. 

Norwich and Millwall home games were undoubted low points, not scoring when on top at Preston and perhaps Pring not following in fully at Birmingham adversely affected us, parts of Blackburn away were appalling and highly concerning.

Edited January 30 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, And Its Smith said:

Is there any point in ignoring the cup games when analysing Manning?  Or is it moaners ignore and happy claps include?

Personally I would include every game 

Yes, there is good reason, but it depends on each person’s view on how they want to judge.

For me it depends on the level I’m looking at it.

If I was to go down the PPG route, or Wins, Draws, Losses in isolation I’d probably include everything.

But if I’m going into lower level, then I tend to stick to league games, because cup games can skew, partly because of opposition strength, or how much they rotate, etc…and similarly what we do too in respect of selection.

I never hear anyone include Nige’s 5-1 win over Manning’s () Oxford for example.

For form, I always do last 6 games….none of this “since last win” or “since last defeat”.

[RollsRoyce]

[W-S-M Seagull]

5 hours ago, BCFCGav said:

Still think Manning is a good pick up. But his having a worse record than Nige after equal games (this season) does make Jon look a plonker. 
 

I’ll always wonder what this season may have been under Nige. And I’ll always blame the Lansdown’s for my never knowing. 

This. 

I felt like under Nige and especially this season we had something which is rather hard to quantify. That was hard work, determination, team spirit, grit etc etc. 

And I know from experience that those things can propel a team to success. Luton and Coventry last season for example. Even Sheffield United. 

I was convinced that this season, with a fair wind we could have had a chance of the play offs going into the final games of the season. I just felt that we had that something about us this season. 

Not saying that it's completely gone, but it's not as prominent. The focus has now shifted towards on the grass coaching and tactics etc. That could be successful in the future of course but not this season. 

Conceding the leveler yesterday kinda shows how we have lost that something. There wasn't a huge determination to not concede. There wasn't a determination to kill the game. Waste time etc. We were too soft. 

[Major Isewater]

On 21/01/2024 at 10:33, And Its Smith said:

I don’t expect a coach to be able to come in, change the style almost overnight AND gain more points than his predecessor.  

Then, you Sir, are not Jon Lansdown nor Brian Tinnion. 

[Jeez]

6 hours ago, formerly known as ivan said:

Each to their own I guess. Some people want more than mediocre…

Maybe but anything else  is wishful thinking.  Because on what basis is the expectation of more in anyway realistic - it can’t be based on any history at this level.

[Monkeh]

7 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Utter nonsense. All games contribute towards a manager’s reputation and help demonstrate what the team is capable of and how the coach deals with superior opposition. Manning deserves a lot of credit for the West Ham games in particular, not for them to be ignored because of some weird rule you made up that for some reason they don’t count.

We beat West ham because they didn't turn up, not because we were outstanding

[Silvio Dante]

On the cup vs league thing, I think what you have to do is see if the cup is an outlier to the league performance. If you take 2017, we were good in league cup and league - so I’d absolutely say we were in form, and it wasn’t a case of weakened teams/sides not being up for it. Conversely, as I’ve mentioned before, if you take the Liverpool season we were poor in the league with barely a goal a game and turgid football. The performances were outliers, maybe due to the pressure on Souness, maybe due to the atmosphere. But we got relegated the following season with a whimper as the league performances were undoubtedly the norm.

With us currently, our cup performances are markedly better than the league. So it’s erring more to the Liverpool season than the Man U. With any statistical analysis you remove outliers - and the cup games are that.

So, I think it’s probably wisest to review based on the league performance alone. And as I’ve said elsewhere, I think 3 from the next 3 is a decent haul in isolation, but when that makes it 20 points from 17 games that’s pretty close to relegation form over a season from a good sample size. So yeah, I’m a touch worried about next season.

@Davefevs - you mention the Oxford game. I really wonder if that was sliding doors. I’d be confident we’d sounded LM out way before NP left and I wonder if that game convinced LM he would be coming to a side that could challenge, and he overestimated his ability to get the side playing his way or the sides ability to adapt in view of the scoreline. Either way, he’s never felt like a natural “continuation” so you start to wonder why here, and why not wait for a better fit. I’m thinking that league cup game was a big factor.

[formerly known as ivan]

1 hour ago, Jeez said:

Maybe but anything else  is wishful thinking.  Because on what basis is the expectation of more in anyway realistic - it can’t be based on any history at this level.

The sacking of NP, quotes from the board about squad being good enough for promotion, top 10 budget in the league, appointing a young forward thinking head coach…

I know I am hanging on the words/actions of our board but this is what they have set themselves up for. After everything that has happened over the last 4 to 6 months, we are entitled to believe we deserve more than what we are getting.

[FNQ]

3 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said:

The sacking of NP, quotes from the board about squad being good enough for promotion, top 10 budget in the league, appointing a young forward thinking head coach…

I know I am hanging on the words/actions of our board but this is what they have set themselves up for. After everything that has happened over the last 4 to 6 months, we are entitled to believe we deserve more than what we are getting.

Can’t argue with that…

[ChippenhamRed]

1 hour ago, Monkeh said:

We beat West ham because they didn't turn up, not because we were outstanding

You clearly didn’t watch the second half in London.

[Numero Uno]

11 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said:

The sacking of NP, quotes from the board about squad being good enough for promotion, top 10 budget in the league, appointing a young forward thinking head coach…

I know I am hanging on the words/actions of our board but this is what they have set themselves up for. After everything that has happened over the last 4 to 6 months, we are entitled to believe we deserve more than what we are getting.

In terms of results we are getting what we’ve previously got albeit Manning is changing the method. No surprise there as it’s the same players with the same limitations.

The bigger concern for me is we’ve competed for two “here and now” players with other Championship clubs in the last month and lost out both times. The one we did get is on loan. We only seem to win the race when we are signing players from St Patrick’s Athletic and Aldershot who offer potential future talent which in all honesty is mainly due to the previous manager blooding kids.

The FFFP mess, the way Pearson was sacked, the delusional messages around the strength of the squad, the club not persuading current talent to come here…..that tells me it is the people at the TOP that are holding us back and have been for far too long. We must be extremely frustrating to manage at first team level.

[Son of Fred]

54 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

3 from the next 3 is a decent haul in isolation, but when that makes it 20 points from 17 games that’s pretty close to relegation form over a season from a good sample size. So yeah, I’m a touch worried about next season.

Ditto - no concerns this term as I see another ten points to be more than enough to see us through....

Summer window will be nerve wrackingly crucial.

[Tomo]

I never intended for this topic to turn into a NP v LM debate.

It's more about where we are verses what the board quoted, when making a managerial change so early.

I think the football under Liam is pretty sexy at times, but also sometimes a little boring. I can see what he is trying to do and I applaud him for that. 

Some are saying, it's a tad harsh to completely focus on PPG and I get that as well. However...

Managers are ultimately judged on their league position and the points attained. At this time, we are more relegation fodder, than a top end outfit based on those fundamentals.

I am behind LM. Let's see where we are after 'his 20 league games' and continue this very interesting debate of where we are and how it looks going into next season.

Edited January 31 by Tomo

[Numero Uno]

6 minutes ago, Son of Fred said:

Ditto - no concerns this term as I see another ten points to be more than enough to see us through....

Summer window will be nerve wrackingly crucial.

Agree that the next window is key. We are seeing performances in isolation that suggest the change of style is being taken on board by the players. Manning really needs to find some consistency in both positive performance and results by the end of the season then it’s down to the leadership.

One thing is for sure, next August is a clean slate. What Nige did or didn’t do becomes irrelevant. Manning will be judged by the fanbase at that point on what HE produces. My main concern is around the people above him getting it right. When has that ever happened?

[Silvio Dante]

6 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Agree that the next window is key. We are seeing performances in isolation that suggest the change of style is being taken on board by the players. Manning really needs to find some consistency in both positive performance and results by the end of the season then it’s down to the leadership.

One thing is for sure, next August is a clean slate. What Nige did or didn’t do becomes irrelevant. Manning will be judged by the fanbase at that point on what HE produces. My main concern is around the people above him getting it right. When has that ever happened?

I’m going to say again that there is no guarantee that LM will get it right given time - we all hope he will, but he’s never been in a job more than 18 months. And his record with a pre season is sacked in December or jumping ship in October.

For that reason, I’m not sure August is a totally clean slate. He needs performances this season - if he’s been in charge for 30 games this year and we’re not seeing consistent improvement there isn’t a compelling argument that he will get it right given a pre season, and if after 10 or so games next year it’s not looking fantastic, there may be a bit of a difficult decision to make.

[Numero Uno]

3 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I’m going to say again that there is no guarantee that LM will get it right given time - we all hope he will, but he’s never been in a job more than 18 months. And his record with a pre season is sacked in December or jumping ship in October.

For that reason, I’m not sure August is a totally clean slate. He needs performances this season - if he’s been in charge for 30 games this year and we’re not seeing consistent improvement there isn’t a compelling argument that he will get it right given a pre season, and if after 10 or so games next year it’s not looking fantastic, there may be a bit of a difficult decision to make.

The end of my first paragraph says he needs to produce consistency THIS season. I’m working on the basis that, regardless of what you or I think, he ain’t going anywhere soon. Jon and Sid ain’t going down that road

When I say clean slate I mean that people can’t play the “look what he inherited” card albeit attitude wise he was dealt a good hand by the previous manager. He will have had enough time to decide what’s needed and taken more than enough training sessions by then to fully implement his style with the current players.

[bexhill reds]

3 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I’m going to say again that there is no guarantee that LM will get it right given time - we all hope he will, but he’s never been in a job more than 18 months. And his record with a pre season is sacked in December or jumping ship in October.

For that reason, I’m not sure August is a totally clean slate. He needs performances this season - if he’s been in charge for 30 games this year and we’re not seeing consistent improvement there isn’t a compelling argument that he will get it right given a pre season, and if after 10 or so games next year it’s not looking fantastic, there may be a bit of a difficult decision to make.

I was very sceptical when LM was brought in, but you can clearly see the results of his endeavours, the team are playing much more attractive football and look much more difficult to beat, defensive and goalkeeping aberrations aside.

Our issue remains the age old quality up front, be it crossing, finishing or decision making, the problem is the solution to that does not come cheap, solve that and I think we have much to look forward to.

 

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, bexhill reds said:

I was very sceptical when LM was brought in, but you can clearly see the results of his endeavours, the team are playing much more attractive football and look much more difficult to beat, defensive and goalkeeping aberrations aside.

Our issue remains the age old quality up front, be it crossing, finishing or decision making, the problem is the solution to that does not come cheap, solve that and I think we have much to look forward to.

 

Over to the two muscateers then. What could possibly go wrong?

[Super]

36 minutes ago, Tomo said:

I never intended for this topic to turn into a NP v LM debate.

It's more about where we are verses what the board quoted, when making a managerial change so early.

I think the football under Liam is pretty sexy at times, but also sometimes a little boring. I can see what he is trying to do and I applaud him for that. 

Some are saying, it's a tad harsh to completely focus on PPG and I get that as well. However...

Managers are ultimately judged on their league position and the points attained. At this time, we are more relegation fodder, than a top end outfit based on those fundamentals.

I am behind LM. Let's see where we are after 'his 20 league games' and continue this very interesting debate of where we are and how it looks going into next season.

Some of our football has been very good but like under Pearson we are massively lacking in the final 3rd mainly due to the wide areas.

Edited January 31 by Super

[Monkeh]

1 hour ago, ChippenhamRed said:

You clearly didn’t watch the second half in London.

We didn't beat West ham in london

[Monkeh]

54 minutes ago, Tomo said:

I never intended for this topic to turn into a NP v LM debate.

It's more about where we are verses what the board quoted, when making a managerial change so early.

I think the football under Liam is pretty sexy at times, but also sometimes a little boring. I can see what he is trying to do and I applaud him for that. 

Some are saying, it's a tad harsh to completely focus on PPG and I get that as well. However...

Managers are ultimately judged on their league position and the points attained. At this time, we are more relegation fodder, than a top end outfit based on those fundamentals.

I am behind LM. Let's see where we are after 'his 20 league games' and continue this very interesting debate of where we are and how it looks going into next season.

If you want to measure who is better then win percentage at Bristol city is the best way

Nige was 32.06 manning is 29.41

Therefore nige is currently the better manager

[DirtySanchez]

I like Mannings playing style better than NPs. Yes, it is a results business but I do think we will get better over the next couple of months.

It is nice to have a cup run but this will affect the players. Mentally, physically. Let's see when we get knocked out in the 1/4 finals.

 

[REDOXO]

6 hours ago, RollsRoyce said:

There really isn’t a lot of arguing about our current form! But apparently our playing style is better! 

 

^^^^^^
 

We are currently failing in the league With players that we were told that should be doing better (despite the constant threads telling us who was/is crap)

Do I believe JL or the forum regarding Bell, OLeary, Knight, Mehmeti, Cornick all named this morning. Or are we not Championship standard in general, as current form more than suggests we are not competitive in terms of picking up points in the league right now! Particularly if we have aspirations of sixth place  

Personally I don’t think we create enough chances, consequently we don’t score enough goals and we have gone a bit soft at the back in the league! But we are much better at retaining possession until we give it away of course.

 

 

 

[Wanderingred]

3 hours ago, Monkeh said:

We beat West ham because they didn't turn up, not because we were outstanding

So results don’t matter unless the opposition play to the best of their ability ? Sorry Maidstone, you only won on Saturday because Ipswich didn’t turn up. No plaudits for you.

Edited January 31 by Wanderingred

[AshtonGreat]

I thought we just beat European champions West Ham, drew with Forest and almost beat in-form Coventry away from home...?

[chinapig]

11 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

I thought we just beat European champions West Ham, drew with Forest and almost beat in-form Coventry away from home...?

What about Birmingham, Millwall, Preston, pretty wretched stuff eh? See, I can cherry pick games to make a spurious point too.

[bearded_red]

17 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

I thought we just beat European champions West Ham, drew with Forest and almost beat in-form Coventry away from home...?

‘European champions’. Well it’s a take I’ll give you that.

[AshtonGreat]

1 minute ago, bearded_red said:

‘European champions’. Well it’s a take I’ll give you that.

Well, they are champions of a European competition

6 minutes ago, chinapig said:

What about Birmingham, Millwall, Preston, pretty wretched stuff eh? See, I can cherry pick games to make a spurious point too.

Granted, but it seems an odd time to start berating the bloke after a run of impressive performances and results

[bearded_red]

1 minute ago, AshtonGreat said:

Well, they are champions of a European competition

If you wish to call West Ham ‘European Champions’ then good luck to you, I however won’t be joining in.