16 Points, 13 League Games

[AshtonGreat]

1 minute ago, bearded_red said:

If you wish to call West Ham ‘European Champions’ then good luck to you, I however won’t be joining in.

Haha no, I'm well aware that Man City are THE European Champions, but West Ham are still A European champion. Put it this way, they're still in a much better place than us

[mozo]

41 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

There really isn’t a lot of arguing about our current form! But apparently our playing style is better! 

 

^^^^^^
 

We are currently failing in the league With players that we were told that should be doing better (despite the constant threads telling us who was/is crap)

Do I believe JL or the forum regarding Bell, OLeary, Knight, Mehmeti, Cornick all named this morning. Or are we not Championship standard in general, as current form more than suggests we are not competitive in terms of picking up points in the league right now! Particularly if we have aspirations of sixth place  

Personally I don’t think we create enough chances, consequently we don’t score enough goals and we have gone a bit soft at the back in the league! But we are much better at retaining possession until we give it away of course.

 

 

 

There was also a spell of 5 games where we had 10 points under Manning. So was he a good coach then, but a bad one now? Were the players top 6 quality then, but bottom 6 quality now?

We scored two goals away from home yesterday but we're all pissed off about attacking play...

None of this makes any sense. 

 

[chinapig]

13 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Well, they are champions of a European competition

Granted, but it seems an odd time to start berating the bloke after a run of impressive performances and results

I'm not one to berate Manning as it wasn't him who made ludicrous claims when he was appointed.

But I would disagree that we have had a run of impressive performances and results in the league. There are differences in how we play but no improvement in either.

The cup run is fun but he wasn't brought in to win the FA Cup!

[REDOXO]

10 minutes ago, mozo said:

There was also a spell of 5 games where we had 10 points under Manning. So was he a good coach then, but a bad one now? Were the players top 6 quality then, but bottom 6 quality now?

We scored two goals away from home yesterday but we're all pissed off about attacking play...

None of this makes any sense. 

 

Our current form is crap. Makes sense to me. 

We are currently failing with players that we were told should be doing better. Makes sense to me 

The forum is attacking individual named players who some think are not good enough we were told should be doing better by the Chairman. Makers sense to me 

We are currently failing to pick up the points that we require to challenge for sixth place. We are third bottom of the current form table is a matter of record. Makes sense to me

We do not create enough (many) chances another matter of record Makes sense to me

We have gotten softer. Matter of watching and opinion I guess. Makes sense to me

We retain possession for longer periods but eventually lose it with a poor pass. Makes sense to me. 
 

I never mentioned manning not being a good coach. You did. Makes no sense to me.

However as You bring it up right now he is failing to do what he was specifically brought into do. Will he turn it around we will see. But the immediate last five games are what they are the stats and the points say so. Makes sense to me!

[ChippenhamRed]

3 hours ago, Monkeh said:

We didn't beat West ham in london

This is just a desperately weak reply. We won the second half in London 1-0, and drew the game away against a side who were 6th in the Premier League at the time, who picked the strongest side available to them on the day and were thoroughly outplayed by us for long periods - because we were absolutely excellent, and Manning got tactics spot on.

If you can't give the team credit for a superb display that day - especially in that second half - then you clearly aren't capable of a reasonable or fair assessment of Manning.

[Tomo]

It's certainly interesting that many fans are saying that we are playing 'better football' under Liam and I tend to agree.

However, having more possession of the ball and looking 'better on the eye' doesn't mean we are more effective.

In fact, our new style of play is proving to be less effective than before. The points tally proves that.

I hope that turns around quickly but I'm struggling to see more than 1 point per game looking at the next 4 fixtures. Worrying.

[ChippenhamRed]

2 hours ago, Wanderingred said:

So results don’t matter unless the opposition play to the best of their ability ? Sorry Maidstone, you only won on Saturday because Ipswich didn’t turn up. No plaudits for you.

Indeed. A team's performance is always a function of how BOTH sides play, how they line up and what tactics they employ. Part of the reason West Ham "didn't turn up" is because WE played very well, defended excellently, and didn't allow them to get a stranglehold on the game. Not simply because they decided not to play. Manning deserves credit for that and anyone unwilling to recognise that clearly has an unfair, pejorative view of the manager.

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, Tomo said:

It's certainly interesting that many fans are saying that we are playing 'better football' under Liam and I tend to agree.

However, having more possession of the ball and looking 'better on the eye' doesn't mean we are more effective.

In fact, our new style of play is proving to be less effective than before. The points tally proves that.

I hope that turns around quickly but I'm struggling to see more than 1 point per game looking at the next 4 fixtures. Worrying.

I’m not sure that’s true. We’re playing different football with marginally worse results, but I think if you put a poll on here it’d be 50/50 at best as to whether the football is “better”. Keeping the ball more generally - yes. Necessarily better on the eye - not sure. It’s slower, less exciting and as you say a bit less effective.

More than one way to skin a cat and if it was cached as ball retention is better wholeheartedly agree. But it’s ultimately an entertainment (and results) industry and our broadly binary scorelines aren’t really something a fair percentage would call “better”

[Davefevs]

5 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

On the cup vs league thing, I think what you have to do is see if the cup is an outlier to the league performance. If you take 2017, we were good in league cup and league - so I’d absolutely say we were in form, and it wasn’t a case of weakened teams/sides not being up for it. Conversely, as I’ve mentioned before, if you take the Liverpool season we were poor in the league with barely a goal a game and turgid football. The performances were outliers, maybe due to the pressure on Souness, maybe due to the atmosphere. But we got relegated the following season with a whimper as the league performances were undoubtedly the norm.

With us currently, our cup performances are markedly better than the league. So it’s erring more to the Liverpool season than the Man U. With any statistical analysis you remove outliers - and the cup games are that.

So, I think it’s probably wisest to review based on the league performance alone. And as I’ve said elsewhere, I think 3 from the next 3 is a decent haul in isolation, but when that makes it 20 points from 17 games that’s pretty close to relegation form over a season from a good sample size. So yeah, I’m a touch worried about next season.

@Davefevs - you mention the Oxford game. I really wonder if that was sliding doors. I’d be confident we’d sounded LM out way before NP left and I wonder if that game convinced LM he would be coming to a side that could challenge, and he overestimated his ability to get the side playing his way or the sides ability to adapt in view of the scoreline. Either way, he’s never felt like a natural “continuation” so you start to wonder why here, and why not wait for a better fit. I’m thinking that league cup game was a big factor.

I honestly don’t know, or have much of an opinion on whether he was “on a list” or not…only that we allegedly had a list and Rob Edwards was on it.

I can imagine elements of that Oxford game appealing, quick, incisive attacks in the opening half hour.

I was very open-minded on his appointment.  I hoped he wasn’t a Martin-clone, my research looked like he was much more adaptable, less-rigid.  I don’t think that has changed really.

4 hours ago, bexhill reds said:

I was very sceptical when LM was brought in, but you can clearly see the results of his endeavours, the team are playing much more attractive football and look much more difficult to beat, defensive and goalkeeping aberrations aside.

Our issue remains the age old quality up front, be it crossing, finishing or decision making, the problem is the solution to that does not come cheap, solve that and I think we have much to look forward to.

 

Can you?

I’m struggling to be honest.

Most games under LM - because of the ebbs and flows, ups and downs of a championship matches, don’t feel a whole lot different to me to phases of games under Nige.  Perhaps those couple of sterile games where we passed it around the back for hours on end felt a bit different, but in attacking third it’s fairly similar.

We were sold a head-coach that would coach those attacking elements. 

1 hour ago, mozo said:

There was also a spell of 5 games where we had 10 points under Manning. So was he a good coach then, but a bad one now? Were the players top 6 quality then, but bottom 6 quality now?

We scored two goals away from home yesterday but we're all pissed off about attacking play...

None of this makes any sense. 

 

Which is why I prefer to talk about two things:

- current form (6 games is my standard)

- overall performances

Too much spin given to “haven't lost in x” / “haven't won in y”, taking a selective point to prove the point as FACT!

[Major Isewater]

It’s easy , cheaper and more pragmatic to have a team of robust players than a team of ball playing artists.

I fear that ultimately Manning will come unstuck with us through the lack of quality of player that he/we can attract to the club. 

We are a club of footballing snobs , not for us the snarling, ugly win at all costs football.No we think we should play like Barcelona or Brazil and jump on the players when they can’t do it.

 I love creative attacking football but if you can’t or won’t bring in this standard of footballer then you will forever struggle. 
 

 

[mozo]

3 hours ago, REDOXO said:

Our current form is crap. Makes sense to me. 

We are currently failing with players that we were told should be doing better. Makes sense to me 

The forum is attacking individual named players who some think are not good enough we were told should be doing better by the Chairman. Makers sense to me 

We are currently failing to pick up the points that we require to challenge for sixth place. We are third bottom of the current form table is a matter of record. Makes sense to me

We do not create enough (many) chances another matter of record Makes sense to me

We have gotten softer. Matter of watching and opinion I guess. Makes sense to me

We retain possession for longer periods but eventually lose it with a poor pass. Makes sense to me. 
 

I never mentioned manning not being a good coach. You did. Makes no sense to me.

However as You bring it up right now he is failing to do what he was specifically brought into do. Will he turn it around we will see. But the immediate last five games are what they are the stats and the points say so. Makes sense to me!

One of Manning's sayings is about players never getting to high and never getting too low, and I think those forum could do with considering that.

When we have a spell of good form, don't get all giddy that we're going to win the league, and when we have a spell of poor form, don't assume all is lost.

I actually don't think performances have been that bad. The team are clearly working hard, trying to create chances and make things happen. 

We scored twice last night. How many goals did you expect?

[Baldyman]

Interesting developments at Leicester today . Maresca has threatened to quit because the fans are moaning at his possession based approach ! Even though they’re walking the league , the style of play isn’t popular with the locals . As much as the style we’re playing is entertaining, it’s a results business and we’ll need to up our game very soon if Manning wants to keep the fan base happy . 

 

“LEICESTER CITY manager Enzo Maresca threatened he will walk away from the club if Foxes fans do not want his brand of football.
Maresca has led the Foxes to the top of the Championship – where they hold a ten-point lead over Ipswich Town.
But despite looking certs to return to the Premier League at the first time of asking, the Italian coach’s methodical, possession-based tactics have not always gone down well with the King Power Stadium supporters.
Following Tuesday night’s 3-1 win over Swansea, Maresca made his feelings known after hearing groans among fans as they tried to build on an early lead.
He said: “I came to this club to play with this idea.
“The moment there is some doubt about the idea, I will leave the day after, it’s so clear.
“You can feel the fans when they’re not happy, some people take things for granted” 

[Engvall’s Splinter]

12 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

You clearly didn’t watch the second half in London.

We drew that game. 

[Back of the Dolman]

9 hours ago, bearded_red said:

If you wish to call West Ham ‘European Champions’ then good luck to you, I however won’t be joining in.

I’d imagine we would class ourselves as a champion of European competition if we won the Europa league though.

[bearded_red]

1 minute ago, Back of the Dolman said:

I’d imagine we would class ourselves as a champion of European competition if we won the Europa league though.

Can’t say the thought of that has troubled me to be honest.

[Back of the Dolman]

1 minute ago, bearded_red said:

Can’t say the thought of that has troubled me to be honest.

that’s a very good point actually!

But just imagine for a second if we won the ECL, we’d be a European champion and nobody could dispute it

[Redtucks]

9 hours ago, chinapig said:

What about Birmingham, Millwall, Preston, pretty wretched stuff eh? See, I can cherry pick games to make a spurious point too.

Conveniently not mentioning Sunderland, Hull and Watford!

 

[chinapig]

Just now, Redtucks said:

Conveniently not mentioning Sunderland, Hull and Watford!

 

That was rather my point. I responded to cherry picking by cherry picking alternative games to suit the opposite argument.

Picking games and excluding others to suit a narrative, whether positive or negative, invalidates the person's case.

[Monkeh]

8 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

This is just a desperately weak reply. We won the second half in London 1-0, and drew the game away against a side who were 6th in the Premier League at the time, who picked the strongest side available to them on the day and were thoroughly outplayed by us for long periods - because we were absolutely excellent, and Manning got tactics spot on.

If you can't give the team credit for a superb display that day - especially in that second half - then you clearly aren't capable of a reasonable or fair assessment of Manning.

I can give the team credit, city played well, but mainly because West ham were sub par,

Same whenever we beat man you, we were good they were poor, great,

But it didn't end up with city winning promotion or getting top 6,

We aren't getting results, we are trying to implement a style that isn't working, 

Our lone striker is isolated there is no creativity in midfield, there isn't any attacking front foot football,

One good result doesn't change that one good performance doesn't change that,

Most games we are shockingly bad for large parts, and look devoid of ideas, there is no consistency and the promised improvement from Jon and Brian hasn't come

It's another season of rebuilding, and when we are midtable next season  or the season  after manning will be sacked and we'd go with another new plan

I'm sick to death of the club having no plan no strategy and seemingly changing its mind and direction all the bloody time

It's not a slight on manning, he's on a hiding to nothing because of those at the top of the club, who seem to disappear when things get a bit hard, but happily take plaudits when we win 2 games in a row

There was a good article on sky a few months back that just about sums this shit show up

And it was something along the lines of Bristol City, a club that doesn't know what it wants to be

[Superjack]

Are they selling up yet?

[Graham76]

We were promised top 6, but feels like we’re going through another reset.  

[Davefevs]

28 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

It's another season of rebuilding, and when we are midtable next season  or the season  after manning will be sacked and we'd go with another new plan

I'm sick to death of the club having no plan no strategy and seemingly changing its mind and direction all the bloody time

Good post btw, just picked this big out.

There is a big assumption from some fans that this is a “rebuild”.  I don’t know where this has come from?  What necessitates a rebuild?  It feels like an excuse for the start made.  This should be a tweak here and tweak there.

[38MC]

I can’t say I’m enamoured yet. In the cup against big opposition it’s undeniable we’ve done exceptionally well.

I think Forest contributed to a really thrilling game because they didn’t want a replay so they encouraged us to go blow-for-blow. 

But then I watch the League games and I am reminded of Lee Johnson. Not necessarily in style, but in approach. And the approach is thinking you can install a Pep style of play with Salford standard players (I’m deliberately using hyperbole here).

It is something I think most modern managers are guilty of and most fans are guilty of. They see what the best can do but forget pragmatism. Style over substance. If you want to progress from the championship you don’t actually have time to install that style of play unless you’re a parachute club. You need to do a Luton or a Blackpool and play pragmatic football. In the championship as a manager you do exceptionally well to last 3 years - you’ll be one of the longest serving - whilst losing your best players each 6 months at worst , 12 months at very best.
 

Don’t fall into the trap you can coach your way there. You can’t, you won’t have the time or the stability. 
 

Modern managers try and get you playing a particular style but that takes investment which FFP no longer allows. 

And that’s why I’m not sure Manning is going to work. We gave Lee longer than we should have - based on spend - for romanticism. But Manning wont get that. 

If you exclude the parachute clubs going back up, it’s the elder statesman and pragmatic managers that get you out of this league. Generally. 
 

and just to add in league one a few technically gifted players can make alll the difference to you being a great footballing side on the eye, but that doesn’t cut it in this league as they’ll be average. The league one to championship gulf is absolutely massive in that in league one 3-4 quality players will get you playoffs, in this league you need 7-8 to achieve the same. And I think that leads to managers from league one being overrated. 

Edited January 31 by 38MC

[ChippenhamRed]

1 hour ago, Engvall’s Splinter said:

We drew that game. 

You think a draw away to a side 6th in the Premier League playing their strongest team available…isn’t a good result?

[38MC]

8 minutes ago, mason said:

When a new manager rebuilds he hopes to bring in his players to play his type of game/plan, this is restricted by his employees who dont always want to back their choice of manager;

Some fans live in hope that somehow words alone can get us to the top div, forgetting that only money can do that.

Income from many prev transfers are set aside to cover losses,.... i.e prev poor choices from those employers, while fans yet again are fed hope and words alone and the round-a-bout turns again as we stand still.

You can’t rebuild in the championship though as your average tenure is 18 months. And you’ll lose your best players because they’ll get picked off for big money as chairmen can’t turn down bids due to FFP. 

it is such a poisoned chalice this league. That’s why I don’t like possession based teams; possession based sides with parachute payments - for sure; if you aren’t that you have to play differently in this league. Two horrible centre half’s, one maverick in the middle and a deadly pace merchant up top, Thats the recipe for getting yourselves in the mix for a playoff lottery. I truly believe otherwise you’re in a win/lose/draw cycle  

If Manning thinks he can rebuild he’s been sold a lie (and I think he has to be honest). He needs 5 years to go and get the best out of league one and two, to train them at the HPC (that’s what Tinnion wanted) and for us not to sell them. That’s pie in the sky. We’ll sell. Like we did semenyo, Webster, Scott. 

whats the point in a ‘training ground manager’ if you’re just going to rip the carpet from under their feet every window?

Edited January 31 by 38MC

[Sheltons Army]

40 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Good post btw, just picked this big out.

There is a big assumption from some fans that this is a “rebuild”.  I don’t know where this has come from?  What necessitates a rebuild?  It feels like an excuse for the start made.  This should be a tweak here and tweak there.

Ha ha

Spooky

I was going to post to @Monkeh about those two paras in particular as they are absolutely spot on
 

Pretty sure you , I and many others looked at LM’s ‘profile’ and then early signs (Not firing in his direction but like most he has his philosophies / ideas) and realised that this is a ‘rebuild’ again with a particular type of player required 

I like you hoped that Manning may be quite adaptable , and tweak but use coaching skills to bring a bit more out of what we had and could add to

Im still way from making any significant judgement on LM , but he clearly has his philosophies which he wants to follow and I’d expect our recruitment to reflect this and some players may be sacrificed along the way.

This is , as far as I can read Jon’s first ‘go’ at driving the bus with his , and Tinnions ‘vision’

Its not a tweak , it never was , it was their ‘vision’ / plan , and we go back to the complete ****** they said at the time , if they actually headhunted LM and thought it was just a ‘tweak’ well...... no words

They didn’t did they , they were happy to throw , and to some degree at least ,what we’d built , and recruited for , off the shelf , and go with their ‘vision’ / plan *

 

* Hey , it may work , but not only will it need some excellent coaching and man managing by LM , but the recruitment will need to be spot on , as will the management and support to LM

 

Being honest, it could be good , but could well be bumpy !

 

Edited January 31 by Sheltons Army

[Mr Popodopolous]

I'd say 4-3-3 suits us best..and you can steadily without overdoing it, the possession side through that too.

A Parallell Universe midfield of Naismith-Scott-Knight would have covered a fair few bases.

[Sheltons Army]

57 minutes ago, Graham76 said:

We were promised top 6, but feels like we’re going through another reset.  

They talked some utter *****

But ,  We were never promised anything , and certainly not top 6 

[Silvio Dante]

59 minutes ago, 38MC said:

and just to add in league one a few technically gifted players can make alll the difference to you being a great footballing side on the eye, but that doesn’t cut it in this league as they’ll be average. The league one to championship gulf is absolutely massive in that in league one 3-4 quality players will get you playoffs, in this league you need 7-8 to achieve the same. And I think that leads to managers from league one being overrated. 

Excellent post overall and just to pick up on this bit, with a few observations:

- In his most successful tenure at Dons, Manning had just what you stated - 3 quality players at that level (Twine, O’Reilly, Darling). Got playoffs. Without them, despite more time on the grass, failed - plays to your theory.

- More pertinently, the L1-Champ gulf is big - and I know there are outliers such as Ipswich. As sometimes players do, managers can struggle; they’re up against better managers who adapt more readily, change mid game. We accept this happens with players but seem less conditioned to do so with managers, and I genuinely think LM has struggled with the step up and being out-thought in game.

- Broader basis, I think he’s found it to be a higher standard than expected, and  players who were slam dunks at L1 aren’t that at this level so he overestimated either his or the squads ability. Mehmetis the obvious example. Nige had him and saw him at close quarters for 9 months and barely played him. Under Liam, he was a target for Oxford and straight in the side against QPR. He’s been below the standard needed but I’d bet that he would have shone at the Kassam. My feeling is he was judging him at L1 standard as opposed to what was needed at this level

Bottom line is there’s discussion if this is a rebuild. It is - now - but shouldn’t have been. LM is adapting to a new level we have no guarantees he’ll succeed at, while trying to impose a style on a squad not set up fully for it. It might work. But it won’t be a quick fix, and I again make the point as you do that if everyone’s playing the same way you need to be the best at it. I’m not sure we’ll be able to compete to get the players to do that, or wait for the coaching team to develop to a level to achieve it the other way.

 

[Sheltons Army]

5 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Excellent post overall and just to pick up on this bit, with a few observations:

- In his most successful tenure at Dons, Manning had just what you stated - 3 quality players at that level (Twine, O’Reilly, Darling). Got playoffs. Without them, despite more time on the grass, failed - plays to your theory.

- More pertinently, the L1-Champ gulf is big - and I know there are outliers such as Ipswich. As sometimes players do, managers can struggle; they’re up against better managers who adapt more readily, change mid game. We accept this happens with players but seem less conditioned to do so with managers, and I genuinely think LM has struggled with the step up and being out-thought in game.

- Broader basis, I think he’s found it to be a higher standard than expected, and  players who were slam dunks at L1 aren’t that at this level so he overestimated either his or the squads ability. Mehmetis the obvious example. Nige had him and saw him at close quarters for 9 months and barely played him. Under Liam, he was a target for Oxford and straight in the side against QPR. He’s been below the standard needed but I’d bet that he would have shone at the Kassam. My feeling is he was judging him at L1 standard as opposed to what was needed at this level

Bottom line is there’s discussion if this is a rebuild. It is - now - but shouldn’t have been. LM is adapting to a new level we have no guarantees he’ll succeed at, while trying to impose a style on a squad not set up fully for it. It might work. But it won’t be a quick fix, and I again make the point as you do that if everyone’s playing the same way you need to be the best at it. I’m not sure we’ll be able to compete to get the players to do that, or wait for the coaching team to develop to a level to achieve it the other way.

 

Your thoughts , points , and post is again ‘thought provoking’.........
 

I have tbh I’m not sure at all which way this one is going to sway