16 Points, 13 League Games

[stephenkibby.]

3 hours ago, ray savino said:

I’m not particularly happy with yet another rebuild that could take at least 2 years or more. But without substantial investment (in terms of our clubs financial position) I can’t see it being anything but a gradual process again with the way Manning wants to play. 

Coventry look to be well ahead in terms of a settled philosophy/strategy, but then they’ve been building with Robins in charge since their dark days of League 2. In contrast we seemed to flip flop between trying to find the coach and style we think we need.

Pearson was a firefighter. It was a shitshow by the end of LJ/MA/DH, with too many underperforming players and a bloated wage bill to match. NP and Gould helped put the club on a more stable footing without suffering our usual relegation after such a disappointing previous period. To be fair, LJ had his moments (with good backing), but ultimately it all fizzled out and failed.

Now we seem a relatively comfortable if not somewhat underwhelming mid table team, at least there’s the chance to build now. That is largely down to the NP /Gould stewardship.

Sad the way NP leaving was handled, we needed his type at the time. We needed him 8 years younger I believe. But now it was decided we needed a new coach to progress fair enough. Pearsons sacking isn’t LM’s fault, he’ll need backing and time from the Board and the fans.

If it doesn’t work out, then the decision makers will have to take ultimate responsibility for the directions and decisions they have made. We as fans can’t decide the manager. The owners can and do. If it comes off they’ll take the success, if it doesn’t they’ll take the flak.

 

As Ray Savino i reckon you've  got a max of two rebuilds left.

[RollsRoyce]

9 hours ago, Tomo said:

Liam has now had 13 league games in charge and banked 16 points in the process, which equates to 1.23PPG... not great reading is it!

That's below what the average was, this season, before Liam was appointed, but let's try to focus on Liam in this thread and look forward, not back.

Of course, Liam has had 2 great FA Cup games, but it's the league statistics that's the most important.

If we continue at this rate, we will end up on 59 points and probably be positioned in and around 14th, which is the exact same position and points total we achieved last season...

Can we do better over the next 18 games or shall we accept that we are likely to be mirroring last season?

He has not had to field a team like this one either. Far from it. He has a massive boost from senior players returning from injury. Minutes for the pathway talent is lost, and there is a place for just one on the bench these days. Let's see how Tinnion's pathway looks in 12 months. Looks like we will be going back to loan them out all over the place again. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Did he indeed.

Walsh I mean.

When did they hit the buffers, Walsh or the other guy.

[2015]

8 hours ago, Cole Not Gas said:

Some good posts IMO with the normally negative views expressed by those who are anti Manning, anti the management, anti the club - or so it would appear.

I dont get to every game these days but note a very marked improvement since Pearson's poor record of wins over 30 months. When people talk about stats this season, surely we should wait for Manning to have a few transfer windows and at least one full season. Unfortunately i did get to most of the games in Pearson's first FULL season and it strikes me people have forgotten how awful most of the play was, how badly his subs and tactics were deployed and MOST IMPORTANTLY how many times we all went home feeling sick that we'd just chucked away vital points in the last few mins I know we've done that under Liam as well.

From memory, FGR away was a real low-point with pens, then we had the opener v Blackpool, Luton, Forest, Coventry away chucking a lead, QPR, Preston,Swansea away, Coventry again and so on. And of all low points the dismal showing against Lincoln was when Gould and J.L should have got rid of Pearson - he had been given enough time.

I dont believe we would have beaten Sunderland, Hull, Watford, West Ham and finished the strongest yesterday under the previous regime. In fact i think we would now be bottom 5 or 6 had the club not changed the coach. I know its all about opinions and the forum, like all media, thrive on blame and criticizing anyone in power but i, for one, like our new style. It has positivity, ambition and i like 'Twine The Shine' as a first real signing. I saw Andy Cole's debut and had never seen anyone as fast. Shine may just be another reason to be cheerful - unlike Simpson 30 months ago

 

Hi Ian

[Fuber]

6 hours ago, pillred said:

I realise £2.5 million is quite a chunk of money but in the grand scheme of things it's almost chickenfeed these days even in the championship, the timing was maybe wrong for NP perhaps the maths just didn't add up at the time, of course, you could well be right and they just weren't happy with Pearson for reasons we know nothing about and did not trust him anymore with transfers.

I don't trust them with decision making 

Yet here we are.

It was the wrong time to sack him by every metric especially after throwing him under the bus with the Scott sale.

We had, considering the injury crisis in spite of the loss to Cardiff, a relatively strong position.

NPs only mistake was thinking he could speak his mind or preceding that, that our incompetent leadership would listen.

It's literally Cotts into LJ all over again.

Can't deal with being told their errors by an experienced manager, not actioning said coach's requested recruitment scenarios (Pilling's interference), said experienced coach is sacked after a poor run, then replaced by a malleable younger fashionable 'coach' to do what he's told while having money chucked at the problem so that it looks like such a great idea and that we have such progressive leadership at the club.

This. Board. Doesn't. Learn.

It's like watching someone trying to paint a wall with a spoon. Twice. I need a drink.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Sort of agree on Cotts to LJ but this was worse on 2 metrics IMO.

1) Our League position was far less urgent when NP was ridiculously sacked.

2) Our financial position was surely stronger when NP sacked.

It was highly similar, history repeating..except worse this one. I think anyway.

[Graham76]

9 minutes ago, RollsRoyce said:

He has not had to field a team like this one either. Far from it. He has a massive boost from senior players returning from injury. Minutes for the pathway talent is lost, and there is a place for just one on the bench these days. Let's see how Tinnion's pathway looks in 12 months. Looks like we will be going back to loan them out all over the place again. 

When you look at how depleted our squad was back then, Nigel was working miracles. 

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, mozo said:

Dave has the number of passes increased since Manning took over?

As you know, I've got nothing against Nige and didn't support his sacking, but I did feel that we played too many wasteful percentage balls when we could have kept possession and been more patient under his management. My eyes are telling me that under Manning, whilst we play percentage balls down the channel or crossfield when we are boxed in, we tend to try more to play our way out more often now. Personally, I much prefer to see the ball on the grass and I think I see nice passing patterns more often than pre-Manning. So I was wondering if that's supported by the stats?

Yes, it’s fairly clear, we pass the ball more, we make more successful passes, and therefore our successful pass percentage is up. Fleming was of course v 10-man Wednesday, so ignore, pretty much!

But the big question is - to what effect are those extra 76 passes / that extra 4% success?  The obvious one is that we are allowing our opponents 2 more passes per possession (blue data) also.

O said in other posts, we’ve gone from 800 pass matches for 50% possession to 1000 pass matches for the same 50% possession.  Basically games have become less intense / more patient, both teams exchanging more passes in their own third.  What’s happening in the final third isn’t really changing.

A more cynical person (okay I’m an a bit cynical) might ask - what was the point then?

As you suggest it comes down to personal preference of playing style.  So, you’ll probably enjoy Manning more than Pearson.

Personally, I’m not worried about “style”.  I want the process to achieve results.  I’m not seeing that at the mo’, albeit I must point out I’m not saying it’s better or worse under one or the other.

I haven’t done my weekly update across the league, because there is still one fixture to go, but here is last week’s pre and post Manning data.

There is a different in “style”, but little tangible different in what happens in and around the box (at both ends).

Shout, if you want any more explanation on the above.

 

[maxjak]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I can’t believe how a couple of Nige-moaners have suddenly become Liam-moaners and Nige-luvvers!  I think they just like to moan about the current!

Some posters on here should apply for the UK Moaning Olympic Squad.  So much negativity and blind criticism.  It is sad, from people who call themselves "Supporters"?   13 games compared to Two and a Half years?  I liked NP, but we have a new manager now, who needs our backing, instead of people setting up their own agendas as to why everything is a terrible failure.  Patience young Jedi's, give it some time?  13 Games is No time at all..... and far too soon for so much defeatism.                 

[Davefevs]

25 minutes ago, Fuber said:

I don't trust them with decision making 

Yet here we are.

It was the wrong time to sack him by every metric especially after throwing him under the bus with the Scott sale.

We had, considering the injury crisis in spite of the loss to Cardiff, a relatively strong position.

NPs only mistake was thinking he could speak his mind or preceding that, that our incompetent leadership would listen.

It's literally Cotts into LJ all over again.

Can't deal with being told their errors by an experienced manager, not actioning said coach's requested recruitment scenarios (Pilling's interference), said experienced coach is sacked after a poor run, then replaced by a malleable younger fashionable 'coach' to do what he's told while having money chucked at the problem so that it looks like such a great idea and that we have such progressive leadership at the club.

This. Board. Doesn't. Learn.

It's like watching someone trying to paint a wall with a spoon. Twice. I need a drink.

The one thing I think is that LM is his own man, strong in his beliefs, no baggage to Bristol City.  I’m more than happy to allow it to play out.

[mozo]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yes, it’s fairly clear, we pass the ball more, we make more successful passes, and therefore our successful pass percentage is up. Fleming was of course v 10-man Wednesday, so ignore, pretty much!

But the big question is - to what effect are those extra 76 passes / that extra 4% success?  The obvious one is that we are allowing our opponents 2 more passes per possession (blue data) also.

O said in other posts, we’ve gone from 800 pass matches for 50% possession to 1000 pass matches for the same 50% possession.  Basically games have become less intense / more patient, both teams exchanging more passes in their own third.  What’s happening in the final third isn’t really changing.

A more cynical person (okay I’m an a bit cynical) might ask - what was the point then?

As you suggest it comes down to personal preference of playing style.  So, you’ll probably enjoy Manning more than Pearson.

Personally, I’m not worried about “style”.  I want the process to achieve results.  I’m not seeing that at the mo’, albeit I must point out I’m not saying it’s better or worse under one or the other.

I haven’t done my weekly update across the league, because there is still one fixture to go, but here is last week’s pre and post Manning data.

There is a different in “style”, but little tangible different in what happens in and around the box (at both ends).

Shout, if you want any more explanation on the above.

 

Thanks Dave, I really appreciate that, and I fully expect that more cynical/skeptical perspective too. 

Totally agree with you too that style can be a personal thing, there's no objective right or wrong way to play. But Manning's brand is definitely the type that I've always preferred

(again not a sleight on Nige, and it's not like we were vintage Wimbledon under him).

I think there are distinct advantages to a passing based game, but there's no point me banging on about that if we're not getting results. 

Danny Wilson springs to mind!

Both Nige and Manning have talked about players being braver in possession, and I think that's the nut that both are trying to crack. The styles are irrelevant.

[Bar BS3]

4 hours ago, Roger Red Hat said:

I think something is clouding your judgement...

Won't let me edit the predictive text typo now.!

 

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, mozo said:

Thanks Dave, I really appreciate that, and I fully expect that more cynical/skeptical perspective too. 

Totally agree with you too that style can be a personal thing, there's no objective right or wrong way to play. But Manning's brand is definitely the type that I've always preferred

(again not a sleight on Nige, and it's not like we were vintage Wimbledon under him).

I think there are distinct advantages to a passing based game, but there's no point me banging on about that if we're not getting results. 

Danny Wilson springs to mind!

Both Nige and Manning have talked about players being braver in possession, and I think that's the nut that both are trying to crack. The styles are irrelevant.

Yep agree.

[Tomo]

Wow, I have just revisited this post after having a busy day. Fair shout to all those who have put forward their opinions.

The bottom line is, at this moment in time, the managerial change has made little difference. In fact our PPG is worse (for this season), since the appointment of Liam.

Those fans saying that Liam needs a couple of transfer windows, to improve the squad, are not wrong. 

Our previous manager could have made milestones and achieved this goal, had he been backed by the board in August 23 and January 24. 

We all want Liam to succeed but in the most simplistic of terms, JL and BT said that they sacked the previous manager as he was not achieving the results from our 'top 6 squad'.

Deluded.

 

 

Edited January 21 by Tomo

[Galley is our king]

47 minutes ago, RollsRoyce said:

He has not had to field a team like this one either. Far from it. He has a massive boost from senior players returning from injury. Minutes for the pathway talent is lost, and there is a place for just one on the bench these days. Let's see how Tinnion's pathway looks in 12 months. Looks like we will be going back to loan them out all over the place again. 

Yep, lost 2 -0.

One 17 year old making his debut and a bench full of kids with Tommy coming back from injury.

And yet, apparently, this loss was enough to sack the manager.

******* disgusting. 

We must never forget this and the powers that be must be held to account if things do not rapidly improve.

[Jose]

3 minutes ago, Galley is our king said:

Yep, lost 2 -0.

One 17 year old making his debut and a bench full of kids with Tommy coming back from injury.

And yet, apparently, this loss was enough to sack the manager.

******* disgusting. 

We must never forget this and the powers that be must be held to account if things do not rapidly improve.

I get the impression people are already starting to forget. 

[petehinton]

1 hour ago, RollsRoyce said:

He has not had to field a team like this one either. Far from it. He has a massive boost from senior players returning from injury. Minutes for the pathway talent is lost, and there is a place for just one on the bench these days. Let's see how Tinnion's pathway looks in 12 months. Looks like we will be going back to loan them out all over the place again. 

God, it’s even worse than I remembered when you look at it again in the cold light of day. 2 keepers on the bench and still can’t even fill it. 

[luke_bristol]

34 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Some posters on here should apply for the UK Moaning Olympic Squad.  So much negativity and blind criticism.  It is sad, from people who call themselves "Supporters"?   13 games compared to Two and a Half years?  I liked NP, but we have a new manager now, who needs our backing, instead of people setting up their own agendas as to why everything is a terrible failure.  Patience young Jedi's, give it some time?  13 Games is No time at all..... and far too soon for so much defeatism.                 

1) We’re comparing PPG over the course of this season, not 2.5 years 

2) We’re specifically making the point that patience shouldn’t be required if we have a so-called top 6 squad that LM was brought in to get the best out of. It’s not about instant success, it’s about boardroom lies.

[Fuber]

56 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Sort of agree on Cotts to LJ but this was worse on 2 metrics IMO.

1) Our League position was far less urgent when NP was ridiculously sacked.

2) Our financial position was surely stronger when NP sacked.

It was highly similar, history repeating..except worse this one. I think anyway.

100% - was more being vague as I was aware of the fact that Cotts was also sacked due to his own lack of adaptability or willingness to change his setup/tactics.

[Tomo]

Our previous manager built the current side (upto this squad of players) and Liam's current results are worse. Simples. Forget what happened previous seasons as that was a shit show of players who we had to offload....I want Liam to succeed more than anyone but the simple facts are, we are no better and the board claimed that we were a top 6 squad....my beef is with the board, not any manager.

Its another crappy reset and the rebuilding starts again, mostly shopping in the lower leagues no doubt...it's mistake after mistake from the owners imo.

Cotts rebuilt with lower league players as we were a lower league side. We are not a League 1 side now...

 

Edited January 21 by Tomo

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Our previous manager built the current side (upto this squad of players) and Liam's current results are worse. Simples. Forget what happened previous seasons as that was a shit show of players who we had to offload....I want Liam to succeed more than anyone but the simple facts are, we are no better and the board claimed that we were a top 6 squad....my beef is with the board, not any manager.

Its another crappy reset and the rebuilding starts again, mostly shopping in the lower leagues no doubt...it's mistake after mistake from the owners imo.

Cotts rebuilt with lower league players as we were a lower league side. We are not a League 1 side now...

 

I agree with most of this but Lower League players need not be looked on like that.

Atkinson, Sykes, Knight to name 3, albeit the latter also had experience at this level.

Cashin is being looked at by PL clubs e.g. Bird out of contract in the summer. Derby having a Category One Academy certainly helps there.

[Tomo]

We played our 1st game back in the top flight on the 21st August 1976. That's 47.5 years ago...

Why would we expect it again anytime soon...depressing.

Tomo 

[Tomo]

10 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I agree with most of this but Lower League players need not be looked on like that.

Atkinson, Sykes, Knight to name 3, albeit the latter also had experience at this level.

Cashin is being looked at by PL clubs e.g. Bird out of contract in the summer. Derby having a Category One Academy certainly helps there.

Valid points. However, are there any top championship sides that would even consider signing those 3 players at this time....? Probably not.

[goalie100]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Sort of agree on Cotts to LJ but this was worse on 2 metrics IMO.

1) Our League position was far less urgent when NP was ridiculously sacked.

2) Our financial position was surely stronger when NP sacked.

It was highly similar, history repeating..except worse this one. I think anyway.

Ridiculously sacked!! If after 30 months he hadn’t moved the club forward how much longer did he need? If by end of may 26 manning hasn’t moved us forward no doubt he will get the same treatment. Be interesting to see where we are this time next year 

[Supersonic Robin]

26 minutes ago, goalie100 said:

Ridiculously sacked!! If after 30 months he hadn’t moved the club forward how much longer did he need? If by end of may 26 manning hasn’t moved us forward no doubt he will get the same treatment. Be interesting to see where we are this time next year 

It's incredible that we have fans who genuinely believe Pearson didn't move the club forward

Edited January 21 by Supersonic Robin

[Sheltons Army]

5 minutes ago, goalie100 said:

Ridiculously sacked!! If after 30 months he hadn’t moved the club forward how much longer did he need? If by end of may 26 manning hasn’t moved us forward no doubt he will get the same treatment. Be interesting to see where we are this time next year 

‘Hadn’t moved the club forward’ ........

 

Oh my ...... some of our fans.......

[goalie100]

Just now, Supersonic Robin said:

It's incredibly that we have fans who genuinely believe Pearson didn't move the club forward

All about league progress 

[bearded_red]

1 minute ago, Supersonic Robin said:

It's incredibly that we have fans who genuinely believe Pearson didn't move the club forward

Genuinely staggering isn't it.

[Sheltons Army]

Just now, goalie100 said:

All about league progress 

Of course

 

Forget context , circumstances or any other part of the task

 

Didn't get us in the play offs innnnit.......... 

Jesus wept

[Galley is our king]

3 minutes ago, goalie100 said:

Ridiculously sacked!! If after 30 months he hadn’t moved the club forward how much longer did he need? If by end of may 26 manning hasn’t moved us forward no doubt he will get the same treatment. Be interesting to see where we are this time next year 

So you "apparently" joined in 2006, and this is your first post????

If you couldn't see the progress he made considering the shit squad he inherited, the players that had to go, the wage reduction and the brilliant way he brought through the kids from the academy.....and retained championship status, then maybe, your first post should be your last!