16 Points, 13 League Games

[Sir Geoff]

1 hour ago, Midlands Robin said:

For those who say we should just judge Liam on the here and now and forget the past, they are correct but to some extent looking back can't be helped.

Imagine if you were going to watch a bang average film. One that you'd not heard anything about in advance but you knew a few of the people in it and thought you'd give it a go. After watching it you'd form an opinion of the film, there'd be bits you enjoyed, bits you didn't and you'd give your opinion to others on what it was like.

Now imagine the same film but you're watching it because you've been told how great it is and that it should be recognised as a brilliant bit of work and that you'll really enjoy it. The film is still the same bang average film as it was before and there will still be bits you'll enjoy and bits you don't but your expectations have now been increased by someone telling you that it's better than it actually is.

That's exactly the problem we have with the Nige / Liam situation. Even though 90 percent of us knew that the board were talking out of their collective backsides, its still expectation management at its worse.

On another note, if you look at some of the clubs that Nige has managed for a decent spell, in the first full season following his sackings at Hull (12/13 season), Leicester (15/16 season) and OH Leuven (20/21 season), all three clubs were promoted or won their league. It seems like Nige is great at setting clubs up but not so great at getting them over the line.

We've got 10 days of the transfer window to go and aprart from brining in Twine on loan and nailing down TGH (who would have been here until the summer anyway), our first team transfer business has been slow so far. I have a feeling it will remain so with maybe 1 more coming in but no big cash signings until the summer. This season has already been parked at board level and they a) know that and b) don't give a flying fig.

The big step forward will come in July and then, starting in the 24/25 season we will really be able to properly judge Liam on what we see on the pitch.

Yes but the Director has changed so there should be some nuanced changes for the better.

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

https://european-football-statistics.co.uk/attnclub/league/cryp.htm

Their attendances are utter shit, they'd be near the bottom of this years Champ

Tbh attendances aren't everything or Bournemouth would be bottom 3 Championship and maybe even back below.

[cidercity1987]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Tbh attendances aren't everything or Bournemouth would be bottom 3 Championship and maybe even back below.

Of course not everything but Palace's attendances in the Champ are poor. Their display yesterday seemed very Charlton esq.

[Sir Geoff]

1 hour ago, luke_bristol said:

If come the end of the season we are in 15th place with fewer points than last season even after lots of returnees from injury and backing in the transfer window, how will JL and BT justify keeping him for next season? Why did they give him a 3.5 year contract? I was probably expecting 10-15th at the start of the season so it’s not that position that would disappoint me, it would be the conduct of senior figures at the club.

Of course I don’t think he’ll be going anywhere in that scenario. They’ve stitched him up with the talk of a top 6 squad but they can hardly complain of fan impatience when the circumstances are of their own making. 

I too expected 10th-15th. After the change and what we were promised I was expecting 6th- 10th and an exciting brand of football.

[JackofromSanJavier]

4 hours ago, Tomo said:

Of course, Liam has had 2 great FA Cup games, but it's the league statistics that's the most important.

 

Sadly, I suspect that we'll continue struggling to break down championship teams for the remainder of the season………..but go on to win the bloody FA Cup!

 

If so, I'll boo   

[ChrisJ]

4 hours ago, Tomo said:

Liam has now had 13 league games in charge and banked 16 points in the process, which equates to 1.23PPG... not great reading is it!

That's below what the average was, this season, before Liam was appointed, but let's try to focus on Liam in this thread and look forward, not back.

Of course, Liam has had 2 great FA Cup games, but it's the league statistics that's the most important.

If we continue at this rate, we will end up on 59 points and probably be positioned in and around 14th, which is the exact same position and points total we achieved last season...

Can we do better over the next 18 games or shall we accept that we are likely to be mirroring last season?

Sorry there were times under Pearson where we were awful. And yes there were Better times but I can assure you that SOME clubs in this league would’ve sacked Pearson far sooner. It was not good for large spells. But I will say he had a horrible hand and did ok considering the circumstances. Also had awful times under Holden and LJ. Manning needs time Pearson got time and LJ got time so according to some on here Manning doesn’t deserve time others are wishing him to fail clearly!!!! I have some confidence in what I’ve seen we are going down a different route and already some players are getting better under Manning. Williams, Mehmeti, Pring are getting better funny how people forget about that!!

[ChrisJ]

1 hour ago, The Swan and Cemetery said:

The club would be much better having a more authentic/less spin approach to communications. Desperate attempts to imply everything is obvious and binary, when clearly it’s not, look silly. “NP was untenable, LM does need time and windows” etc might result in short term egg on faces given comms to date, but keeping the spin going will be more damaging in the medium term. For those of us who thought NP was doing a good job and didn’t deserve to go, we can disagree with that decision, but also accept it might turn out to be the right one and we’ll get behind LM anyway as he’s managing/coaching City. But pretending that we’re already seeing revolution is daft and unnecessary, when we’re not (and no reason to expect it from LM yet, it’s the rampant confirmation bias from the club comms that is annoying people, or at least me). 

Yes well said the club shot itself in the foot with its comms we don’t have a top 6 squad so why say it!!!! Took us for fools. I actually don’t have issue with the NP decision and I understand why they got manning look at other champ clubs they are all doing it Millwall, Swansea, Plymouth Sheff Wed QPR seem to be all the rage now and they all need time!!!!

[Silvio Dante]

1 hour ago, ray savino said:

LM was given a 3.5 year contract wasn’t he? 
 

Year One (and this season the half year!) Next Season 24/25

I would suspect that he will need a turnover of squad to accommodate players that will perform more comfortably in the roles he wants for his team. Plus a pre-season of coaching on the grass, I reckon we’re going to see next season as the one of change not challenge the top.

Year Two Season 25/26

I would expect we should have a squad and team looking like it is challenging for play-offs.

Year Three Season 26/27

Serious challengers for promotion via play-offs or even auto. (Plus 10 year anniversary celebration of our defeat of Manchester United).

Whether I’m happy about the timescale as a fan is immaterial (unless of course performances don’t markedly improve consistently to give us fans real belief - thereby potential for drop off in attendances). That is all up to the owners and what they need to invest again to back the manager.

Given that it would appear that there won’t be risky huge amounts of cash to spend for a quick go at success and the sort of young players to develop that we seem to want to sign, then inevitably it looks like another significant amount of time and patience that we are going to have to have before we have a tangible squad to become one of the favourites for top six and not just an optimistic outside bet/dark horse.

If Manning doesn’t come up to scratch in this time, or he does and is poached by a bigger club, I would at least hope that the changes the club have decided to make will would mean they would stick to their strategy and appoint a replacement that would suit the style and properly have a succession plan.

Meanwhile if we can’t win trophies or get promotion, let’s hope we can see more performances with the passion and commitment we saw in the cup games, starting on Friday.

 

59 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

For me, there was a fundamental lack of realism about three things.

1) Our team is decent but not one that anyone looking objectively would expect to be challenging for promotion. 

2) The appointment of Manning - whilst I'd argue it was logical and consistent with direction Pearson had taken the club and the players brought in - was not an immediate continuity appointment in a way that Manning could be expected to hit the ground running without a bedding in period. 

3) We've got some decent technical players but not a team immediately reading to play possession-based football without hitches.

The reality is that the result will be a season of (yet more) transition and inconsistency and, as others have said, it won't be until Manning has had a pre-season to get his ideas across that we'll really know whether he can improve the team. I'm okay with that and I see no evidence so far that a January and summer transfer window under Manning will take us in the wrong direction or lead to a fundamental change of approach. At the same time, I think the level of rebuild we undertook under Pearson and then Manning means we can't allow us to get ourselves in another Lee Johnson-type situation of waiting three years to see if the appointment is going to pay off or not. 

I want Manning to succeed next season but - if we get to November and the signs aren't there - I'd be frustrated if we kept giving a manager brought in for immediate results more and more time to see what happens. 

I think these two posts collectively sum up where we are nicely - it is a project, and we are starting again - as @ray savinos post excellently articulates in terms of timeline. The issue there is broadly twofold:

- The time managers have broadly won’t allow them to have that timeline - as I stated last week, Ryan Lowe is second longest serving manager at this level and LM himself has only had max 18 months at a club. Odds are that he’ll be sacked or poached before the end of the contract 

- And then that brings us to @LondonBristolians points - I don’t think anyone thought LM, despite the board statements, was taking us to the playoffs this season. But equally, it was a solid mid table championship squad that didn’t need ripping up and starting again - it needed tweaking and additions, not surgery. So if we are looking at a 3.5 year time line as Rays post articulates, I don’t think anyone is massively up for that considering the starting position (which is better relative to Pearson) - and on that basis I err with LBs thinking. There is no way Manning should be sacked or it be considered despite the points return. But there is also no way he should need a 3.5 year project and the question probably is at what point (hopefully never as it will work) is it acceptable to say “it’s not working”

Essentially if LM delivers Status Quo (and I think he will next year, just in a different style as the level of investment to reshape the squad as opposed to tweak it will be too much), I wonder if that will end up being less accepted than otherwise because of the way things were handled.

[And Its Smith]

11 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

I too expected 10th-15th. After the change and what we were promised I was expecting 6th- 10th and an exciting brand of football.

Instantly ?

[petehinton]

14 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

Of course not everything but Palace's attendances in the Champ are poor. Their display yesterday seemed very Charlton esq.

And also, note how they waited until they were losing to reveal the banners. How strong and noble of them…

Have a lot of time and respect for Palace as a club and fanbase, but what they did yesterday was pretty cringe imo. 

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, cellist said:

The cup games have definitely taken some scrutiny off him and the owners. 4 league games without a win and a tough run coming up - even if the performances improve (I think yesterday was a step up from the previous 3 league games!) the points per game probably won't be looking good by mid Feb.

 

What would be acceptable to most from the next 4? I wouldn't bet on us winning any - Cov are a good side and though we used to win there every year I think those days are gone! Leeds, Boro and Southampton? Let's say 2 draws and 2 plucky defeats - not unrealistic - leaves us with 18 points from 17 games which across a season works out as less than 50 points. Have to hope we'll bounce back with games against QPR, Sheff Wed and Cardiff, but pressure will be on

For me, this shows how sequence of fixtures, opposition type, etc can sway mood.

The next 6 games are a classic split of “good” teams and “not so good” teams…and I would think it’s fair to judge after the next 6 not the next 3 if you’re looking at it that way.

For me, I’m sticking to Coventry being my first real evaluation point.  I chose that because it coincided with the window closing, so we’d not just see how he’s fared across a range of opponents in 14 games, but also recruitment in / out.  I didn’t choose that because Nige also had 14, that’s a coincidence.

3 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

I don’t expect a coach to be able to come in, change the style almost overnight AND gain more points than his predecessor.  I think he will need until at least a pre season to be able to do that.  And 2-3 more players suited to what he wants.  So far, we have seen the good and bad. I would expect with time that the bad bits are minimised and progress is made.  

Why would a head-coach coming in want to change the style overnight.  There wasn’t a huge amount wrong really.  My expectations were that we wouldn’t regress over 14 games.  I think a few games of Forming and Storming, then some progress to make up for the short-term regress.

I am getting a little fed up of:

We’ve only had 9 sessions

I can’t remember the last time I had a week with the players

For info, he had 6 days between Millwall and West Ham and another 6 days after that between West Ham and Preston.

Yes, 6 days isn’t a week, but if you can’t create a training regime in 6 days, you’re coaching in the wrong league / country imho.

2 hours ago, Cole Not Gas said:

Some good posts IMO with the normally negative views expressed by those who are anti Manning, anti the management, anti the club - or so it would appear.

I dont get to every game these days but note a very marked improvement since Pearson's poor record of wins over 30 months. When people talk about stats this season, surely we should wait for Manning to have a few transfer windows and at least one full season. Unfortunately i did get to most of the games in Pearson's first FULL season and it strikes me people have forgotten how awful most of the play was, how badly his subs and tactics were deployed and MOST IMPORTANTLY how many times we all went home feeling sick that we'd just chucked away vital points in the last few mins I know we've done that under Liam as well.

From memory, FGR away was a real low-point with pens, then we had the opener v Blackpool, Luton, Forest, Coventry away chucking a lead, QPR, Preston,Swansea away, Coventry again and so on. And of all low points the dismal showing against Lincoln was when Gould and J.L should have got rid of Pearson - he had been given enough time.

I dont believe we would have beaten Sunderland, Hull, Watford, West Ham and finished the strongest yesterday under the previous regime. In fact i think we would now be bottom 5 or 6 had the club not changed the coach. I know its all about opinions and the forum, like all media, thrive on blame and criticizing anyone in power but i, for one, like our new style. It has positivity, ambition and i like 'Twine The Shine' as a first real signing. I saw Andy Cole's debut and had never seen anyone as fast. Shine may just be another reason to be cheerful - unlike Simpson 30 months ago

 

you’re gonna be horrified to find out his win percentage is currently worse than Nige’s across Nigel’s whole time here which included that horrible 3 month spell in 20/21.

I’m keen to understand what you see as the marked improvements?  There are some, but what do you think they are?  You are very selective in the games you choose!

[The Gasbuster]

22 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Tbh attendances aren't everything or Bournemouth would be bottom 3 Championship and maybe even back below.

Oh, if only !

[Jose]

2 minutes ago, petehinton said:

And also, note how they waited until they were losing to reveal the banners. How strong and noble of them…

Have a lot of time and respect for Palace as a club and fanbase, but what they did yesterday was pretty cringe imo. 

Or they focused their support to the team until the end when they revealed the banner? 
 

I say fair play to them. They don’t really seem to have a plan and just waiting for Roy to go. Must make it nigh on impossible to sign players. They are lucky there are some awful teams this year. 

[The Gasbuster]

15 minutes ago, JackofromSanJavier said:

Sadly, I suspect that we'll continue struggling to break down championship teams for the remainder of the season………..but go on to win the bloody FA Cup!

 

Finish 21st on GD and win the F.A. Cup ?!

I will take that now !! 

[Numero Uno]

3 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

I’m over worrying about what those people say and do.  Tinnion obviously has his strengths but I don’t think he’s suited to the role he is in.  Jon Lansdown doesn’t seem capable either.  I’d prefer to just judge Manning on what I believe is fair and realistic.  I’ve said before, I’d rather give a manager too long than not long enough.  If there are signs of progress and momentum come September/October then personally, I will be happy.   I can certainly see what you are saying but I just can’t be bothered to waste any emotion or energy on the senior management of this club 

I’m the same as far as Manning goes tbf. You can’t do what isn’t realistically possible.

[Bar BS3]

1 hour ago, headhunter said:

Sykes is a starter for me but where does Naismith now fit in a first X1?

If you are labelling Atkinson as a starter when fit then what is your best picks line up and in what formation [accepting that the matchday squad is 20 which offers plenty of scope for change]?

Skies starts all day long, but Naismith & Atkinson, currently, for more squad depth, rotation & changing things from the bench. 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, ray savino said:

LM was given a 3.5 year contract wasn’t he? 
 

Year One (and this season the half year!) Next Season 24/25

I would suspect that he will need a turnover of squad to accommodate players that will perform more comfortably in the roles he wants for his team. Plus a pre-season of coaching on the grass, I reckon we’re going to see next season as the one of change not challenge the top.

Year Two Season 25/26

I would expect we should have a squad and team looking like it is challenging for play-offs.

Year Three Season 26/27

Serious challengers for promotion via play-offs or even auto. (Plus 10 year anniversary celebration of our defeat of Manchester United).

Whether I’m happy about the timescale as a fan is immaterial (unless of course performances don’t markedly improve consistently to give us fans real belief - thereby potential for drop off in attendances). That is all up to the owners and what they need to invest again to back the manager.

Given that it would appear that there won’t be risky huge amounts of cash to spend for a quick go at success and the sort of young players to develop that we seem to want to sign, then inevitably it looks like another significant amount of time and patience that we are going to have to have before we have a tangible squad to become one of the favourites for top six and not just an optimistic outside bet/dark horse.

If Manning doesn’t come up to scratch in this time, or he does and is poached by a bigger club, I would at least hope that the changes the club have decided to make will would mean they would stick to their strategy and appoint a replacement that would suit the style and properly have a succession plan.

Meanwhile if we can’t win trophies or get promotion, let’s hope we can see more performances with the passion and commitment we saw in the cup games, starting on Friday.

The problem for me RS is that Manning’s 26/27 was Nige’s 24/25….why delay that by 2 years.  I really expected Nige to settle on the progress path this season, ready to attack promotion next season.

FWIW I expect Manning to give it a shot next season too.  He doesn’t get 3 years / x windows.  He came in on firm foundations ready for a push.  I didn’t expect it this season.

 

[And Its Smith]

14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

For me, this shows how sequence of fixtures, opposition type, etc can sway mood.

The next 6 games are a classic split of “good” teams and “not so good” teams…and I would think it’s fair to judge after the next 6 not the next 3 if you’re looking at it that way.

For me, I’m sticking to Coventry being my first real evaluation point.  I chose that because it coincided with the window closing, so we’d not just see how he’s fared across a range of opponents in 14 games, but also recruitment in / out.  I didn’t choose that because Nige also had 14, that’s a coincidence.

Why would a head-coach coming in want to change the style overnight.  There wasn’t a huge amount wrong really.  My expectations were that we wouldn’t regress over 14 games.  I think a few games of Forming and Storming, then some progress to make up for the short-term regress.

I am getting a little fed up of:

We’ve only had 9 sessions

I can’t remember the last time I had a week with the players

For info, he had 6 days between Millwall and West Ham and another 6 days after that between West Ham and Preston.

Yes, 6 days isn’t a week, but if you can’t create a training regime in 6 days, you’re coaching in the wrong league / country imho.

you’re gonna be horrified to find out his win percentage is currently worse than Nige’s across Nigel’s whole time here which included that horrible 3 month spell in 20/21.

I’m keen to understand what you see as the marked improvements?  There are some, but what do you think they are?  You are very selective in the games you choose!

Didn’t have you down as someone to look at win percentages so closely Dave! 

[chinapig]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Why would a head-coach coming in want to change the style overnight.  

To be fair to Liam, perhaps because that is what Tinnion said we wanted! Front foot football (whatever that means) that would have us challenging for the top 6 with our top end squad.

So the Technical Director dictates the style of play and the Head Coach is expected to deliver it.

[Shauntaylor85]

1 minute ago, chinapig said:

To be fair to Liam, perhaps because that is what Tinnion said we wanted! Front foot football (whatever that means) that would have us challenging for the top 6 with our top end squad.

So the Technical Director dictates the style of play and the Head Coach is expected to deliver it.

If I came in as an owner first thing I would do is appoint an established DOF and remove all the legacy players from this club. Too cosy. 

[Davefevs]

21 minutes ago, ChrisJ said:

Sorry there were times under Pearson where we were awful. And yes there were Better times but I can assure you that SOME clubs in this league would’ve sacked Pearson far sooner. It was not good for large spells. But I will say he had a horrible hand and did ok considering the circumstances. Also had awful times under Holden and LJ. Manning needs time Pearson got time and LJ got time so according to some on here Manning doesn’t deserve time others are wishing him to fail clearly!!!! I have some confidence in what I’ve seen we are going down a different route and already some players are getting better under Manning. Williams, Mehmeti, Pring are getting better funny how people forget about that!!

Absolute effing horseshit. Sane as the other poster who alluded to that who I’ve forgotten…pillred was it?

Nobody wants him to fail.

You are not taking into account the situation that Manning came into.  A well executed rebuild by Nige.  Therefore the expectations of time it will take to move us forward is lessened.

Holden didn’t get time did he?

I’m happy with Manning, but imho, I’ve seen a lot of smoke blown up his arse without much substance.  As you’ll know I’m massively into my stats.  They show very little to justify anything other than we pass the ball a bit more, we block a bit more than press.  The fundamentals of goals, quality of chances both for and against are remarkably similar.  I’d summarise my 13 game view, as we are playing a bit differently for the same results.

I’m happy with that.  I do expect the trend to start going up at some point this season though.  The replacement of Nige with LM wasn’t to stand still, was it?  It was ridiculous to point at promotion, admittedly.  But somewhere in between???

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Didn’t have you down as someone to look at win percentages so closely Dave! 

I only use it to correct people spouting bollox Dave!!!

I’m sure some are wearing:

[And Its Smith]

14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The problem for me RS is that Manning’s 26/27 was Nige’s 24/25….why delay that by 2 years.  I really expected Nige to settle on the progress path this season, ready to attack promotion next season.

FWIW I expect Manning to give it a shot next season too.  He doesn’t get 3 years / x windows.  He came in on firm foundations ready for a push.  I didn’t expect it this season.

 

I think a play off shot next season is to be expected. Not this season.  If we just missed out next season then I would give him another.  If next season was another 10-14th finish then we’d have to think again I expect.  Unless the 10th was only 4-5 points off the play offs. 

[Numero Uno]

34 minutes ago, ChrisJ said:

Sorry there were times under Pearson where we were awful. And yes there were Better times but I can assure you that SOME clubs in this league would’ve sacked Pearson far sooner. It was not good for large spells. But I will say he had a horrible hand and did ok considering the circumstances. Also had awful times under Holden and LJ. Manning needs time Pearson got time and LJ got time so according to some on here Manning doesn’t deserve time others are wishing him to fail clearly!!!! I have some confidence in what I’ve seen we are going down a different route and already some players are getting better under Manning. Williams, Mehmeti, Pring are getting better funny how people forget about that!!

Who is wishing the manager to fail?

[Davefevs]

Just now, And Its Smith said:

I think a play off shot next season is to be expected. Not this season.  If we just missed out next season then I would give him another.  If next season was another 10-14th finish then we’d have to think again I expect.  Unless the 10th was only 4-5 points off the play offs. 

Yes, agreed Dave.

Thats exactly as I see it too.  Blige

[Mr Popodopolous]

35 minutes ago, ChrisJ said:

Yes well said the club shot itself in the foot with its comms we don’t have a top 6 squad so why say it!!!! Took us for fools. I actually don’t have issue with the NP decision and I understand why they got manning look at other champ clubs they are all doing it Millwall, Swansea, Plymouth Sheff Wed QPR seem to be all the rage now and they all need time!!!!

Plymouth lost a manager who was going well through no fault of their own and some key players too. Too early to say but they're quite an open side and at home especially should keep ticking over.

QPR and Sheffield Wednesday improved yes but were doing so badly the only way was up in some ways. Sheffield Wednesday had 2 points from 10 which saw Munoz get sacked, 3 from 11 after 1 caretaker game. You're talking record breaking bad.

Think QPR had 1 home win in 10 months, a year or something farcical.

Millwall win some lose some, Swansea too early to say.

Otoh Mowbray should stabilise Birmingham.

Edited January 21 by Mr Popodopolous

[ExiledAjax]

20 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The problem for me RS is that Manning’s 26/27 was Nige’s 24/25….why delay that by 2 years.  I really expected Nige to settle on the progress path this season, ready to attack promotion next season.

FWIW I expect Manning to give it a shot next season too.  He doesn’t get 3 years / x windows.  He came in on firm foundations ready for a push.  I didn’t expect it this season.

I agree because for me the reason that 2024/25 is the target season for a "push" isn't because it would have been Pearson's 4th full season in charge.

It's always been the target season because factors other than the identity of the manager align in that season. Finances, squad age, FFP freedom etc. Those things don't change when we swap from one manager to another. 

Secondly, it's the CLUB that should be aiming for a push in 24/25. That timeline should be part of the meta-plan that the directors and owners have, and managers should be recruited in order to give that plan the best chance of success.

If that's why Manning was recruited then on. But as you say, that means he should be expected to orchestrate a proper assault on the top 6 next season.

Edited January 21 by ExiledAjax

[Red Skin]

4 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

I’m unsure that we’ll have the quality to be the best at that style as it will need more investment than I think we’ll put in (Fevs has mentioned if you look at Martin it works better at Soton than Swansea because he has better players), and my gut is that we’ll see a mid table team next year, just with a bit of a different style.

I think it's fair to say that any style will work better with better players.   The quality of player is always going to put a ceiling on the level of success you will have.   

I do think the style we are moving to under Manning has a better chance of getting more from the players.  Given our level of finances compared to teams with parachute payments, we need to find a way of playing that elevates the team over the individual.  When the emphasis is on the system they play to is elevated, you do not rely on star performers to get success.  (You still need intelligent, coachable decent players though).  The upshot being that when someone does come in to buy your better performers the team isn't overly reliant on them because the strength is the system.  You also know what you need to replace them because you know what the system needs. You aren't looking to replace an 'Alex Scott', you are looking to replace the role he does in the system.  Succession planning for the here and now (and if we are looking to upgrade because we get promoted) becomes easier at least in terms of being clear about what's needed.  Same goes for academy recruitment and coaching.  No guarantee you'll find those players with your finances within any given window though.  

Maybe that's why Scott Twine hasn't reached the heights he did under Manning?  Because he needs some structure within which to play his best football.  Maybe that's why Oxford aren't fairing so well without Manning now.  Because the same players aren't able to perform as well collectively without the system and patterns of play he was coaching?

I am not a fan of this threads.  I appreciate that results and points on the board is ultimately to only objective measure of success, but sneaking an extra couple of points here and there isn't a real measure of a team's development for me.   We all know promotion challenging football when we see it - as we did under Cotts - without needing to check the points tally per game.

I don't know if Manning is the answer, but I am happy to give him the rest of the season, a couple of transfer windows, and a full preseason to really make an full assessment.  For me, I have seen enough to be encouraged so far. 

Edited January 21 by Red Skin

[petehinton]

12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Absolute effing horseshit. Sane as the other poster who alluded to that who I’ve forgotten…pillred was it?

Nobody wants him to fail.

You are not taking into account the situation that Manning came into.  A well executed rebuild by Nige.  Therefore the expectations of time it will take to move us forward is lessened.

Holden didn’t get time did he?

I’m happy with Manning, but imho, I’ve seen a lot of smoke blown up his arse without much substance.  As you’ll know I’m massively into my stats.  They show very little to justify anything other than we pass the ball a bit more, we block a bit more than press.  The fundamentals of goals, quality of chances both for and against are remarkably similar.  I’d summarise my 13 game view, as we are playing a bit differently for the same results.

I’m happy with that.  I do expect the trend to start going up at some point this season though.  The replacement of Nige with LM wasn’t to stand still, was it?  It was ridiculous to point at promotion, admittedly.  But somewhere in between???

I dunno Dave, I for one spend £400 on a ST, spend however many extra hundreds a year travelling to as many away days as possible, and each game I have my fingers crossed that we lose so that the manager fails. 
 

It’s just honest logic. 
 

[And Its Smith]

12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yes, agreed Dave.

Thats exactly as I see it too.  Blige

If you listed forum users from top to bottom, patient to non patient I think we would both be near the top!