16 Points, 13 League Games

[italian dave]

6 hours ago, Tomo said:

Liam's current statistics prove that Jon and Brian were so inaccurate, claiming that we had a Top 6 squad.

 

 

Splitting hairs, maybe, but neither of them actually said that. Marshall did - but he's not the footballing man (evidently!).

[Sir Geoff]

4 hours ago, FNQ said:

Actually worse 10 of those in 3 games..

The performances have been so hit and miss, the wins over Watford away especially and Boro / Hull at home were good. But bloody hell some of the others Huddersfield, Brum, Blackburn have been really poor.

Plus 2 pens.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, Sir Geoff said:

Plus 2 pens.

I make it 3.

Middlesbrough home, Sunderland home, Hull home.

On a side note is it me or do we seem to get more key decisions post NP?? Or literally coincidence?

[ray savino]

56 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I think where I'm at with this is - 

As a fan, it's hard to buy into a 'rebuild' or another project when it was stated that Liam was brought in here to get the best out of the current squad through on the grass coaching. 

Also, most of us probably felt as if a rebuild or another project wasn't needed. Just evolution. 

I hear people saying he needs his own players etc. But I don't know. Surely he needs to adapt to the players hes got? 

This team is better than 1 goal in 4 league games. 

What's currently going round in my mind is, if Manning continues to not get the best out of this squad, how can we be sure that even with his own players, he will get the best out of them? 

We then may find ourselves in a position where we once again have to have a rebuild of the rebuild. 

I can understand that as a long suffering fan myself, to some extent. But the statements made about ‘best squad we’ve had since I’ve been here’ (JL) and don’t want this season to just stumble along is not Mannings fault. It’s on the heads of those who told the fans this and will have to ultimately justify these things if it doesn’t deliver.

LM has to do a lot to convince me he was the right choice. But he’s got to be given time, that to me looks patently obvious with the inconsistency in our performances.

The time scale management and its communication to the fan base  is all down to the Board.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Under NP especially, was there any indication we would or should be returning to a back 3?

Not sure if it is the best course of action..by all means in-game switches especially with Naismith able to either drop or slot into the deepest point between midfield and defence but that aside Idk.

We spent the best part of a year going 4-3-3 or some version of this, possibly recruiting for that too.

Edited January 21 by Mr Popodopolous

[Galley is our king]

10 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Splitting hairs, maybe, but neither of them actually said that. Marshall did - but he's not the footballing man (evidently!).

Sorry, they both said we have a squad capable of being at the top end of the table and we didn't want to wait until the end of the season for that so we acted now.

Complete bollox.

[Natchfever]

1 hour ago, ChrisJ said:

I recon there are definitely some of our fan base all be it small who want us to lose games just so they can say Nige was right etc - I’m not saying everyone just a ver minor number! And for what it’s worth I don’t think manning is the next big thing or the next sir Alex but he needs time!!! That is not an unreasonable expectation so he can stamp his footprint on the side. I have no issue with anyone saying what they think however some people here are being slightly unrealistic!!! 

I dont think ive picked up any hints that posters want the team to lose, any posts you can point to?

Talking about fans being unrealistic  what do you say about the hype spouted by Tinnion and Lansdown about the ability of the squad (minus Twine and any other newbies) and where they saw that squad sitting in the table?

If you reckon that they spoke bullshit, but its ok because they can change goalposts and barefaced lie to justify a dismissal then dont be surprised if their front man gets judged on what he does THIS season.

[Davefevs]

29 minutes ago, Cole Not Gas said:

As you may not want a balanced view from an older supporter who rarely posts, i'll spare you my list of negatives.

Spot the contradiction

As per my earlier post, what marked improvements have you seen under Manning?

[BS3 Ark at Ee]

Currently further away from the play off places than we were when Manning took over 15 games ago! 

[W-S-M Seagull]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Spot the contradiction

As per my earlier post, what marked improvements have you seen under Manning?

We're well coached

[ChrisJ]

1 minute ago, Natchfever said:

I dont think ive picked up any hints that posters want the team to lose, any posts you can point to?

Talking about fans being unrealistic  what do you say about the hype spouted by Tinnion and Lansdown about the ability of the squad (minus Twine and any other newbies) and where they saw that squad sitting in the table?

If you reckon that they spoke bullshit, but its ok because they can change goalposts and barefaced lie to justify a dismissal then dont be surprised if their front man gets judged on what he does THIS season.

Yea they spoke bullshit I knew that at the time I don’t think they truely believe it themselves not with parachute payments and clubs spending big money like Hull. Well he can be judged all you want by people like you and whoever he isn’t going anywhere so they are just wasting their energy and being negative, up to them, I don’t like to live my life that way but if you do that’s up to you.

[JP Hampton]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Absolute effing horseshit. Sane as the other poster who alluded to that who I’ve forgotten…pillred was it?

Nobody wants him to fail.

You are not taking into account the situation that Manning came into.  A well executed rebuild by Nige.  Therefore the expectations of time it will take to move us forward is lessened.

Holden didn’t get time did he?

I’m happy with Manning, but imho, I’ve seen a lot of smoke blown up his arse without much substance.  As you’ll know I’m massively into my stats.  They show very little to justify anything other than we pass the ball a bit more, we block a bit more than press.  The fundamentals of goals, quality of chances both for and against are remarkably similar.  I’d summarise my 13 game view, as we are playing a bit differently for the same results.

I’m happy with that.  I do expect the trend to start going up at some point this season though.  The replacement of Nige with LM wasn’t to stand still, was it?  It was ridiculous to point at promotion, admittedly.  But somewhere in between???

I get the impression all these comments about “wanting the club to fail or being anti Manning” is simply the modern way of arguing, it’s called shutting down the argument. Rather than discussing things properly, just throw out a few generalisations. 
 

In this conversation, given it’s discussing LMs lack of roaring success, where it would be easy to do so, I don’t think I’ve read anyone saying their anti Manning, yes a few anti JL and BT, but certainly not anti club as Cole not Gas alluded to.  
 

Honestly it does get a bit old, when mentioning NP in any positive light, automatically means you’re anti Manning. 
It is actually possible to have slightly nuanced opinions about NP and LM without the need to be anti either. 
 

We all knew we weren’t a top six side, so stepping back now and basically accepting that we’re starting again, seems the only sane path to take. As many new managers do, he’s come in and wants to sweep clean, rather than necessarily building on what we already were. It’s going to be a long road….again. 

[ChrisJ]

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Spot the contradiction

As per my earlier post, what marked improvements have you seen under Manning?

I can give a handful of things that I have seen. I think we have been better on the ball playing between the 3rds, I don’t think that has been the case every week though. Pring is getting forward more because bell ain’t on the left closing space…..Mehmeti has been looking more dangerous and playing better and Williams looks a completely different player. I think under Pearson it was dour mostly and I will say that under manning it hasn’t been much better dour as well mostly but I am seeing what we are trying to do. 

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, JP Hampton said:

I get the impression all these comments about “wanting the club to fail or being anti Manning” is simply the modern way of arguing, it’s called shutting down the argument. Rather than discussing things properly, just throw out a few generalisations. 
 

In this conversation, given it’s discussing LMs lack of roaring success, where it would be easy to do so, I don’t think I’ve read anyone saying their anti Manning, yes a few anti JL and BT, but certainly not anti club as Cole not Gas alluded to.  
 

Honestly it does get a bit old, when mentioning NP in any positive light, automatically means you’re anti Manning. 
It is actually possible to have slightly nuanced opinions about NP and LM without the need to be anti either. 
 

We all knew we weren’t a top six side, so stepping back now and basically accepting that we’re starting again, seems the only sane path to take. As many new managers do, he’s come in and wants to sweep clean, rather than necessarily building on what we already were. It’s going to be a long road….again. 

Good post JPH, but…

…we shouldn’t be “starting again”.

That is as unnecessary and the hierarchy comments on sacking / appointing.

[Sir Geoff]

4 hours ago, ray savino said:

LM was given a 3.5 year contract wasn’t he? 
 

Year One (and this season the half year!) Next Season 24/25

I would suspect that he will need a turnover of squad to accommodate players that will perform more comfortably in the roles he wants for his team. Plus a pre-season of coaching on the grass, I reckon we’re going to see next season as the one of change not challenge the top.

Year Two Season 25/26

I would expect we should have a squad and team looking like it is challenging for play-offs.

Year Three Season 26/27

Serious challengers for promotion via play-offs or even auto. (Plus 10 year anniversary celebration of our defeat of Manchester United).

Whether I’m happy about the timescale as a fan is immaterial (unless of course performances don’t markedly improve consistently to give us fans real belief - thereby potential for drop off in attendances). That is all up to the owners and what they need to invest again to back the manager.

Given that it would appear that there won’t be risky huge amounts of cash to spend for a quick go at success and the sort of young players to develop that we seem to want to sign, then inevitably it looks like another significant amount of time and patience that we are going to have to have before we have a tangible squad to become one of the favourites for top six and not just an optimistic outside bet/dark horse.

If Manning doesn’t come up to scratch in this time, or he does and is poached by a bigger club, I would at least hope that the changes the club have decided to make will would mean they would stick to their strategy and appoint a replacement that would suit the style and properly have a succession plan.

Meanwhile if we can’t win trophies or get promotion, let’s hope we can see more performances with the passion and commitment we saw in the cup games, starting on Friday.

You do realise the average length of tenure for a Manager in the Championship is 10 months.

The change was made to improve our chances of promotion THIS season.

[cidered abroad]

30 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Under NP especially, was there any indication we would or should be returning to a back 3?

Not sure if it is the best course of action..by all means in-game switches especially with Naismith able to either drop or slot into the deepest point between midfield and defence but that aside Idk.

We spent the best part of a year going 4-3-3 or some version of this, possibly recruiting for that too.

Will Naismith stay here? Is he one the LM will want to play?

I suspect he'll be on his way in summer.

[JP Hampton]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Good post JPH, but…

…we shouldn’t be “starting again”.

That is as unnecessary and the hierarchy comments on sacking / appointing.

I couldn’t agree more, we shouldn’t be and agree it’s perfectly clear that the comments/reasons/excuses around sacking and appointing were complete nonsense, but starting again (it seems to me) is what appears to be happening. 

[Sir Geoff]

2 hours ago, ChrisJ said:

Yes well said the club shot itself in the foot with its comms we don’t have a top 6 squad so why say it!!!! Took us for fools. I actually don’t have issue with the NP decision and I understand why they got manning look at other champ clubs they are all doing it Millwall, Swansea, Plymouth Sheff Wed QPR seem to be all the rage now and they all need time!!!!

Sunderland, Birmingham how's that going ?

[JoeAman08]

2 minutes ago, ChrisJ said:

I can give a handful of things that I have seen. I think we have been better on the ball playing between the 3rds, I don’t think that has been the case every week though. Pring is getting forward more because bell ain’t on the left closing space…..Mehmeti has been looking more dangerous and playing better and Williams looks a completely different player. I think under Pearson it was dour mostly and I will say that under manning it hasn’t been much better dour as well mostly but I am seeing what we are trying to do. 

Spot on. Am convinced anyone who can’t see it either watches on tv or has never played football before. We were pretty much exclusively a threat from set pieces or long throws under Pearson. 
 

Got people asking if it coincidence we have had 3 penalties in 15 games under LM and went over a whole season without on under NP. Not coincidence at all. We are much sharper in the final third. Tommy Conway getting a 1v1 with the keeper nearly every game now. Also not coincidence. 
 

Unfortunately mate, you are arguing with a bunch of dinosaurs that are stuck in 1991. More in love with the bloke NP than the manager. The board actually getting things right and it is the most negative on here as I have ever seen it. Have someone now actually on the grass and you only hear great things from the players yet they know better on here. 

[Sir Geoff]

2 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

Instantly ?

As promised.

[Kibs]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Good post JPH, but…

…we shouldn’t be “starting again”.

That is as unnecessary and the hierarchy comments on sacking / appointing.

But it’s now inevitable isn’t it.

The players which have been previously recruited have been recruited to play out of possession, on the break etc….

We could not have picked a manager with a more different approach. It’s absolute insanity and goes against everything we have been told previously about head coaches being able to come in and not needing to rip it all up.

This isn’t a dig at LM btw, I actually quite like him (as do the players I believe) but like it or not, we’re now going to have to go through another period of transition.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

Spot on. Am convinced anyone who can’t see it either watches on tv or has never played football before. We were pretty much exclusively a threat from set pieces or long throws under Pearson. 

Seriously???

Where did all our chances come from yesterday?  Set-pieces or press.

In recent games it’s been from transition. Not from build-up.

Thats a bad take Joe!

Edited January 21 by Davefevs

[W-S-M Seagull]

12 minutes ago, JP Hampton said:

We all knew we weren’t a top six side, so stepping back now and basically accepting that we’re starting again, seems the only sane path to take. As many new managers do, he’s come in and wants to sweep clean, rather than necessarily building on what we already were. It’s going to be a long road….again. 

 

 

Neither were Coventry or Luton, but they both got to the play off final. 

Why do we have to start again and why do we need to accept that we're starting again? 

Why should Manning be allowed to sweep clean? Why can't he just build upon what we have? 

Surely if he has to do that, he is the wrong choice? 

[W-S-M Seagull]

9 minutes ago, JP Hampton said:

I couldn’t agree more, we shouldn’t be and agree it’s perfectly clear that the comments/reasons/excuses around sacking and appointing were complete nonsense, but starting again (it seems to me) is what appears to be happening. 

But just because it appears to be happening, doesn't mean we as fans should just roll over and accept that and be patient whilst it happens. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

11 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Will Naismith stay here? Is he one the LM will want to play?

I suspect he'll be on his way in summer.

I actually think that *when fit*, that he is best suited to the switching in-game between a back 3 and 4 on our books currently.

*=This of course is hugely caveated by his availability.

[ChrisJ]

8 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Sunderland, Birmingham how's that going ?

Don’t know.what you’re talking about? 

1 minute ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Neither were Coventry or Luton, but they both got to the play off final. 

Why do we have to start again and why do we need to accept that we're starting again? 

Why should Manning be allowed to sweep clean? Why can't he just build upon what we have? 

Surely if he has to do that, he is the wrong choice? 

He isn’t sweep cleaning that’s just not true.

[Jeez]

We all know/knew it’s never a top 6 squad, I don’t know why this keep getting quoted, it obvious spin & repeating is as preposterous as the statement itself.

Change of coach was never going to revolutionise our season - I can’t imagine anyone thought for a minute it would.

But I think we can all agree there are green shoots with Liam & more importantly the board like him so he will be backed which is good for us as fans.

 

[ChrisJ]

Just now, Jeez said:

We all know/knew it’s never a top 6 squad, I don’t know why this keep getting quoted, it obvious spin & repeating is as preposterous as the statement itself.

Change of coach was never going to revolutionise our season - I can’t imagine anyone thought for a minute it would.

But I think we can all agree there are green shoots with Liam & more importantly the board like him so he will be backed which is good for us as fans.

 

This is ExCtly how I see it.

[JP Hampton]

4 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Neither were Coventry or Luton, but they both got to the play off final. 

Why do we have to start again and why do we need to accept that we're starting again? 

Why should Manning be allowed to sweep clean? Why can't he just build upon what we have? 

Surely if he has to do that, he is the wrong choice? 

The answers to your questions are, because we have no choice. 

[JP Hampton]

5 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

But just because it appears to be happening, doesn't mean we as fans should just roll over and accept that and be patient whilst it happens. 

So what are you going to go about it then. We are either patient and watch or we give up and stop it support and I’m not doing that. 
I’ve said it before I’ll support LM and any manager, until I feel he’s not the best thing for the team and at present I can’t in all honesty say that and to be fair neither can you.