3 goals in 7 games…

[38MC]

41 minutes ago, BCFCGav said:

Agreed, I rate Tommy highly. I think he has ‘it’ and will do really well. I’d love him to stay. 
 

It’s more Bell, Mehmeti, Knight for me. They get into some great areas that should lead to a really high quality chance, and it just never quite drops. I rate all three, they just need to find that last bit far more frequently.

I agree with you. I think mehmeti is having his bedding in season and will be a menace next season. I think each week we all seem to say ‘he’s getting better’ and I think Manning is going to give him the chance to play his way into being a key player. 
 

Bell is the one for me I’m still less certain on. Earlier on he seemed more instinctive, which made him dangerous, but now he’s being coached, he’s losing something. I’m less convinced he’s going to carve out a career at this level. I hope I’m wrong though. 

[You Do The Dziekanowski]

57 minutes ago, CityCiderEd said:

They said the same about us......

Well within their right to do so. 
 

Any team that doesn’t look like scoring, imo, are crap. You can do all you want with the ball in two thirds and teams will allow you, knowing you can’t do anything in the one that matters 

[Dr Balls]

Over the years most successful teas have needed a strike partnership up front. We have it with Conway and Wells but they haven’t been on the pitch at the same time all season. There is no variety or change in the formation with the subs, just like for like in the same formation that wasn’t scoring goals before. Doing the same thing and expecting change is the definition of madness!

[YorkshireSection]

17 minutes ago, 38MC said:

I agree with you. I think mehmeti is having his bedding in season and will be a menace next season. I think each week we all seem to say ‘he’s getting better’ and I think Manning is going to give him the chance to play his way into being a key player. 
 

Bell is the one for me I’m still less certain on. Earlier on he seemed more instinctive, which made him dangerous, but now he’s being coached, he’s losing something. I’m less convinced he’s going to carve out a career at this level. I hope I’m wrong though. 

He (Bell) seems to make the wrong decision, he lacks a final ball and takes a touch too many. We are lacking someone who could whip a ball in like his DAD.

[GrahamC]

6 minutes ago, YorkshireSection said:

He (Bell) seems to make the wrong decision, he lacks a final ball and takes a touch too many. We are lacking someone who could whip a ball in like his DAD.

Who played one season above League One in his whole career..

[W-S-M Seagull]

4 minutes ago, YorkshireSection said:

He (Bell) seems to make the wrong decision, he lacks a final ball and takes a touch too many. We are lacking someone who could whip a ball in like his DAD.

I like Bell. Really like him. I felt as if he was trying to make something happen tonight and was trying to prove a point. 

But there was one occasion where Conway was free in the box and rather than pass it to Conway, Bell decided to take the shot on which was a poor decision. Conway was visibly frustrated with that. 

[38MC]

6 minutes ago, YorkshireSection said:

He (Bell) seems to make the wrong decision, he lacks a final ball and takes a touch too many. We are lacking someone who could whip a ball in like his DAD.

I think the wrong decisions are coming from how he’s being asked to play. Right now he’s meant to be an impact player. He made impact when he came into the side because his remit was ‘run towards goal and swing your boot’ and he created chaos. Obviously you’re never going to be a starter playing like that, but he needed /needs to get that freedom again, whilst on the training ground trying to finesse him. Right now he’s ineffective as a sub and surely draining confidence. 

[Rocking Red Cyril]

59 minutes ago, tin said:

Totally agree, but we could pick an XI and play a formation that suits Wells and Conway by dropping the box midfield. For example, 3-4-1-2: Max; Tanner, Vyner, Dickie; McCrorie, Knight, James/Williams, Pring; Twine; Wells, Conway. 

But it seems that's not the LM formation so it's not happening any time soon. But.......... thought.........

Did not  BT/suits did say he is expected to play football they want ?

So if they want two up front ?

What then ?

[38MC]

4 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Who played one season above League One in his whole career..

I think that likely had more to do with a reluctance to move club than a limitation of ability to be fair. 

Plus I’m not sure the disparity in wages between leagues was necessarily there at the time. I can see why at that time in his shoes being paid well and being a fans favourite was worth more than upheaving family, relocating and gambling on fitting in for probably a relatively modest wage rise. 

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, 38MC said:

I feel for Tommy. He’s just not suited to the way we play unfortunately. He’ll still contribute because he has that touch of class, but if he’s going to be a lone striker with quote ‘wing-hugging’ forwards either side, I understand why he might want to move on. 

And I have no rebuttal to that. It’s true we need to do more. I think it comes down to us having a really good striker, who doesn’t quite fit in with our team unfortunately. 

I disagree to a large extent. I don’t think it matters who you play up top (unless they are a huge level up), target-man, runner of channels, etc.

Firstly I thought we played well tonight, we went toe to toe with a PL team.  But all of our attacks come down the flanks.  It’s not Tommy’s fault.  We don’t (generally) create through the centre of the pitch in the opposition half unless it’s on the counter / transition.

So, Tommy keeps his discipline, he stays central.

Pre-season I wrote about this - referencing “Three Buffalo Girls Go Round the Outside” from 22/23, but we saw Scott and Knight give us the central option to receive and roll their man.  We do it occasionally, but we don’t break lines in the centre of the pitch often enough to service Tommy.  In many ways the 3421 / 343 can exacerbate it, the 3 CBs can space themselves nicely to work the ball to Pring or McCrorie, but the 2 CMs are being asked to play pretty disciplined (JW mentioned this last week, when asked if he had license to be more box-2-box, but he corrected the interviewer and said he was more structured), so the options are different to if we played 4231.  We are getting the ball out wide nice and crisply, but the options seem to rely on individuals taking on their opponent (e.g. McCrorie driving inside off of his first touch) to create space, commit their opponents.

I think tonight, had we been playing a standard chsmpionship defence we win, so not gonna be critical, but I think the system (not formation) isn’t “brave”, and maybe that’s fine for a PL opponent.  We got “a result” tonight.

Lets see how we do against Coventry.

2 hours ago, MarcusX said:

Still can’t understand why he can’t at least bring Wells on and leave Tommy with him. There was nothing to lose tonight, no one really wanted a replay - it doesn’t suit us either with something like 7 games in 3 weeks now?

that’s the big question isn’t it…make a sub and change the system, what gains versus what losses?

I’m not fussed about the replay, we end Feb / go into March with a run of:

Tuesday - Cov

Friday - Leeds

Wednesday (tbc) - Forest

Saturday - Boro

Tuesday - Southampton

Saturday - QPR

no midweek

Saturday - Sheffield W

no midweek

Saturday - Cardiff

I don’t really want to hear LM talk like it’s a bit of a bind, a bit of a pain…that can translate to the players.  We have a squad of fairly even ability players….rotate them.

Twine gets to rest for the replay, Pring suspended, so they get a natural break.  Use what you have.  Get in with it! 

[cidered abroad]

I feel sorry for Conway.

He is left alone in the middle of a three with two wide on the touchline; I cannot call them wingers as they rarely create any clear cut chances.

We rarely, and usually only when we are chasing late in the game, attack through the middle. If we'd played the same way with Atyeo on his own up front, his career would have been played 650 with goals 35.

 

[spudski]

We've had similar scenarios under LJ and SC where we played 532/352.

We seem to be playing even more defensively 541/3141

For all the pretty football, 'controlling'the game, extra possession...it maybe refreshing to watch...it isn't affective at creating goal scoring opportunities.

We knock the ball about from side to side, into midfield, back again, out wide again...then when 'set' we rely fully on creating from the wings. 

We see it...the stats prove it. 

We either try to take on the fullback and invariably lose the ball, or create a cross into a box fully marshalled by a defence and keeper expecting it. 

It's the easiest form of attack to defend against. 

I've mentioned it numerous times on here. I absolutely hate being reliant on wide play and crosses to create opportunities to score from. 

The reason being, and stats back it up, is that crossing a ball into the box is the easiest thing to defend against and that it's the least affective way to create a goal. Stats back that up. You need numerous crosses in a game before you'll score. It's proven ineffective. 

And to compound that...for all the control and possession, when we do eventually attack on the flank, we either try to beat the man and end being tackled or losing the ball ( often Mehmetti) or give a ball into the box that the defenders and keeper are lining up to clear, often unopposed.

So for all the nice crisp football in the first two thirds of the pitch, it's pointless if the last third is well...third rate. 

We are far better when we have central ball winning and retaining central mid/10s that can combine or turn their men centrally. Create space centrally, draw defenders centrally...allowing our forwards more space and where defenders aren't set ready. 

If we can create more centrally and not rely on wide play and crosses, then we'd be more affective. 

We created more and scored more when we had less possession and countered. 

So for all the smart attractive looking football...' controlling' a game...it's no use if your reliance is wide play that's I affective at creating chances. 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

I still have this general idea which is outdated now with the back 3 of when fit..

Sykes Conway Twine

Sykes-Twine-Mehmeti/Bell

            Conway

This could be a way to go..still not fully sold on the back 3 albeit vs better sides it can see us do a good job.

Edited January 27 by Mr Popodopolous

[Always injured]

We seem to be very good on 70% of the pitch but we create very little a nearly team

[old_eastender]

10 hours ago, 38MC said:

I agree with you. I think mehmeti is having his bedding in season and will be a menace next season. I think each week we all seem to say ‘he’s getting better’ and I think Manning is going to give him the chance to play his way into being a key player. 
 

Bell is the one for me I’m still less certain on. Earlier on he seemed more instinctive, which made him dangerous, but now he’s being coached, he’s losing something. I’m less convinced he’s going to carve out a career at this level. I hope I’m wrong though. 

Agree with you on Bell. When he first came into the team he was an instinctive player, hitting 1st time shots & crosses. Now he seems to always want to take an extra touch and inevitably gets closed down. Frustrating as he gets into some great positions, but they come to nothing because of taking the extra touch, or making the wrong decision.

[Major Isewater]

I am ok for the team to be built on a solid defence, all good coaches drill their players to keep the ball out of the net. That is perhaps the less glamorous facet of a team but gives a platform to build on. 
It appears that the period of transition is largely over and the defence has improved steadily. 
The next bit,creativity, is the hardest . 
We just need a top striker and midfielder and the Prem calls.

[Shauntaylor85]

35 minutes ago, Always injured said:

We seem to be very good on 70% of the pitch but we create very little a nearly team

Exactly this. Ball retention means nothing, it’s what you do with it to hurt teams. We have no pace in this side so struggle to get in behind teams or lack that ingenuity in tight spaces. Final ball across the squad is poor, hoping Twine delivers end product. 

17 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

I am ok for the team to be built on a solid defence, all good coaches drill their players to keep the ball out of the net. That is perhaps the less glamorous facet of a team but gives a platform to build on. 
It appears that the period of transition is largely over and the defence has improved steadily. 
The next bit,creativity, is the hardest . 
We just need a top striker and midfielder and the Prem calls.

We need a new front 3 and an ACM. I don’t think any of them are good enough consistently. 

Edited January 27 by Shauntaylor85

[95red]

Lovely  tippy tat football  pleasing on the eye but don't score ,wont win games ,needs addressing  or soon the confidence  will wear thin with the players .See how the next 4 league  games pan out .

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

We've had similar scenarios under LJ and SC where we played 532/352.

We seem to be playing even more defensively 541/3141

For all the pretty football, 'controlling'the game, extra possession...it maybe refreshing to watch...it isn't affective at creating goal scoring opportunities.

We knock the ball about from side to side, into midfield, back again, out wide again...then when 'set' we rely fully on creating from the wings. 

We see it...the stats prove it. 

We either try to take on the fullback and invariably lose the ball, or create a cross into a box fully marshalled by a defence and keeper expecting it. 

It's the easiest form of attack to defend against. 

I've mentioned it numerous times on here. I absolutely hate being reliant on wide play and crosses to create opportunities to score from. 

The reason being, and stats back it up, is that crossing a ball into the box is the easiest thing to defend against and that it's the least affective way to create a goal. Stats back that up. You need numerous crosses in a game before you'll score. It's proven ineffective. 

And to compound that...for all the control and possession, when we do eventually attack on the flank, we either try to beat the man and end being tackled or losing the ball ( often Mehmetti) or give a ball into the box that the defenders and keeper are lining up to clear, often unopposed.

So for all the nice crisp football in the first two thirds of the pitch, it's pointless if the last third is well...third rate. 

We are far better when we have central ball winning and retaining central mid/10s that can combine or turn their men centrally. Create space centrally, draw defenders centrally...allowing our forwards more space and where defenders aren't set ready. 

If we can create more centrally and not rely on wide play and crosses, then we'd be more affective. 

We created more and scored more when we had less possession and countered. 

So for all the smart attractive looking football...' controlling' a game...it's no use if your reliance is wide play that's I affective at creating chances. 

 

Excellent summary Spud, I’ve written very similar stuff over recent weeks, and especially since getting home last night.  It’s not about “moving it quicker” as is often quoted as the reason, because last night I thought our tempo was really good.  But as you say, by the time we’ve worked the opportunity wide, the opposition defence is set.

This for me is LM’s biggest challenge.

I honestly expected him to have built the foundations of a set of patterns by now that allow us to create in-field.

This isn’t a Nige v Liam comment, but we are still more of a threat from transition and set-pieces.  At this point in time I’m actually pretty disappointed I’ve not seen any upside at all in creativity through the centre of the pitch.

Which leads me onto…

48 minutes ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

Exactly this. Ball retention means nothing, it’s what you do with it to hurt teams. We have no pace in this side so struggle to get in behind teams or lack that ingenuity in tight spaces. Final ball across the squad is poor, hoping Twine delivers end product. 

We need a new front 3 and an ACM. I don’t think any of them are good enough consistently. 

I think both you, @Harry and especially LM (And Tins) hope Twine is the answer / part of the answer.  But I think the issue is bigger than one player.  Twine will improve us, but we don’t know by how much, and if we can’t get ball into him centrally in the final third, then we won’t see what he has to offer, beyond set-pieces.

Better players will help, it’s just that for me, we can’t afford enough of them!

[ChrisJ]

We create nothing but turned over Watford 4-1 at their place

[Major Isewater]

19 minutes ago, ChrisJ said:

We create nothing but turned over Watford 4-1 at their place

This is somewhat of an outlier. We cannot say ,after what seems every match,  that we just didn’t tuck the chances away. 
At our level the margins are wafer thin but how many times have we looked like tonking anybody? 
Still lots to work on. 

Edited January 27 by Major Isewater

[Fuber]

Need a Target Man, but with enough pace to be deployed as a pressing forward while giving us an extra option in the box.

We have good patterns of play, but too often it ends up down the defenders throut from a recycle of possession leading to a cross.

Someone in the mould of Ragner Ache at Kaiserslautern (I watch a lot of Bundesliga/2), an aerial option.

[robin_unreliant]

Totally agree with the comments about being too predictable in our reliance on playing down the wings. I guess that may be as much due to a lack of quality in our attacking midfielders. Maybe Twine can change that? I also think Sykes would be better more central.

I guess we will find out if the one dimensional attack is an LM tactical flaw or due to the players over the next few months.

[Robinsfan]

I saw a passing map of the game last night, and it showed that we pretty much played no passes into Conway at all. Conway's biggest weakness for me is receiving the ball back to goal. It seems most of the time if the central defender follows him, he'll lose the ball. This was shown especially against Millwall at the gate where the defender practically just ran through him (I think a couple of them were fouls, but it's the championship). This makes it difficult for us to progress the ball centrally. An 'easy' solution to this is just to buy a big striker, but then at this level, you are always trading strengths and weaknesses, so we'll be losing out on something else. I think, for Conway, it'll come with experience, but his contract is winding down, and if he doesn't sign in the summer, he'll likely leave. I can't see him being a lone striker for many teams in the league above or for any of the teams around us, and two natural striker teams are few and far between.

[spudski]

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Excellent summary Spud, I’ve written very similar stuff over recent weeks, and especially since getting home last night.  It’s not about “moving it quicker” as is often quoted as the reason, because last night I thought our tempo was really good.  But as you say, by the time we’ve worked the opportunity wide, the opposition defence is set.

This for me is LM’s biggest challenge.

I honestly expected him to have built the foundations of a set of patterns by now that allow us to create in-field.

This isn’t a Nige v Liam comment, but we are still more of a threat from transition and set-pieces.  At this point in time I’m actually pretty disappointed I’ve not seen any upside at all in creativity through the centre of the pitch.

Which leads me onto…

I think both you, @Harry and especially LM (And Tins) hope Twine is the answer / part of the answer.  But I think the issue is bigger than one player.  Twine will improve us, but we don’t know by how much, and if we can’t get ball into him centrally in the final third, then we won’t see what he has to offer, beyond set-pieces.

Better players will help, it’s just that for me, we can’t afford enough of them!

Thanks Dave...I think we've both noted the obvious, hopefully LM see's it too and doesn't persevere in the same vein. 

The football we play is flattering to deceive. 

Possession is only good if it has an end product. 

[Numero Uno]

13 minutes ago, spudski said:

Thanks Dave...I think we've both noted the obvious, hopefully LM see's it too and doesn't persevere in the same vein. 

The football we play is flattering to deceive. 

Possession is only good if it has an end product. 

Generally I agree with you. The big difference for me last night was a lot more FORWARD passing was evident. Reset has been overdone in a number of recent games, I think that’s been obvious. We all know we have an issue in the final third but there was a lot less “unnecessary” backwards and sideways last night imo.

[Ashton Fete]

Granted it’s not a huge amount of clubs but Manning definitely brings a 2nd season bounce at MK and Oxford..clearly it takes time for teams to bed in with his system but  we are without doubt making incremental positive steps forward and each signing will continue that momentum

It does feel at the minute that our most likely chances will come from opposition defensive errors but I’ve got faith in the plan so let’s keep learning this style of play and roll on next season as I genuinely think the play offs will be a very realistic goal

[Davefevs]

23 minutes ago, spudski said:

Possession is only good if it has an end product. 

I enjoyed last night, but I think in some respects that was because we didn’t give the ball away unnecessarily against PL opponents, nor did they knock it about without us getting a kick either, so I had different expectations last night.  That’s no bad thing against better opposition, but you can argue the way we play allowed for quite a structured passing game….and it was the non-structured stuff that brought the real excitement - Vyner’s run, Cornick’s break and shot from Pring.

I want to see us take this into league games, BUT…take more chances with those passes into the attack minded players.  I’m hard to please because I thought we tried to force things too quickly against Watford, but in my defence I think we did it from a position of poor possession too often.  Last night we had good possesion.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Ashton Fete said:

Granted it’s not a huge amount of clubs but Manning definitely brings a 2nd season bounce at MK and Oxford..clearly it takes time for teams to bed in with his system but  we are without doubt making incremental positive steps forward and each signing will continue that momentum

It does feel at the minute that our most likely chances will come from opposition defensive errors but I’ve got faith in the plan so let’s keep learning this style of play and roll on next season as I genuinely think the play offs will be a very realistic goal

Let’s hope we don’t get Manning’s MK second season bounce then!  Because he got sacked in season 2 with MK in 22nd position!

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

I enjoyed last night, but I think in some respects that was because we didn’t give the ball away unnecessarily against PL opponents, nor did they knock it about without us getting a kick either, so I had different expectations last night.  That’s no bad thing against better opposition, but you can argue the way we play allowed for quite a structured passing game….and it was the non-structured stuff that brought the real excitement - Vyner’s run, Cornick’s break and shot from Pring.

I want to see us take this into league games, BUT…take more chances with those passes into the attack minded players.  I’m hard to please because I thought we tried to force things too quickly against Watford, but in my defence I think we did it from a position of poor possession too often.  Last night we had good possesion.

That’s the key for me. Let’s see the good bits from last night in LEAGUE games and let’s start becoming more of a real threat in the final third. Then we’re getting somewhere. However last night was an improvement for me and, Watford away aside, that includes comparison with games Manning has won not just the ones he hasn’t.