The elephant in the room

[Galley is our king]

1 minute ago, ExiledAjax said:

1.28. We round up if the decimal is after 5.

And is currently on 1.5 from the last 12 games. Looking at his first 12 excludes the last 6 games where we've gone at 1.33 ppg.

Pearson managed 14 league games this season and returned 1.29 ppg. Manning's ppg over his last 14 is 1.36. So yes Pearson had a higher ppg in his 14 games this season compared to Manning's 18...a whole 0.01 higher. However if we compare apples and apples Manning is currently trending higher than Pearson.

If you want people to respect your opinions then you need to start basing them on foundations of rock not sand. Compare apples and apples and use the right numbers. 

So squad availability due to injuries doesn't come into it?

Check squad availability when we played Cardiff and before that.

Manning has many more available players than Pearson had and should be doing better than he is.

[Tomo]

3 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Let's hope that the start of MK Dons 22/23 season is not replicated for us in 24/25

Quote: 'Following an awful start to the season that found his side in the relegation zone, Manning was sacked on 11 December 2022 having accumulated just fifteen points from twenty matches, six points from safety and only off the bottom on goal difference'

 

11 months on he lands a championship job....

[Robbored]

10 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

He really hasn't. 13 months of training day in day out with better players and a summer of one to one coaching has not improved him.

Manning must rate Mehmeti. I believe he tried to sign him when at MK Dons.

No doubt that Mehmeti has plenty of ability but as yet hasn’t really stood out in any game. 

[OneTeamInBristol]

Ancelotti wouldn't get promotion out of this league with this current squad.

Majority are mid-table Championship players which is where they'll end up come the end of the season.

Pearson and Manning will get the same overall results with the same overall level of squad.

[Leabrook]

4 minutes ago, Galley is our king said:

So squad availability due to injuries doesn't come into it?

Check squad availability when we played Cardiff and before that.

Manning has many more available players than Pearson had and should be doing better than he is.

Manning takes players off to reduce injuries. A clear strategy.  If more players are available to him than Pearson it’s not necessarily luck 

[Robbored]

1 minute ago, OneTeamInBristol said:

Ancelotti wouldn't get promotion out of this league with this current squad.

Majority are mid-table Championship players which is where they'll end up come the end of the season.

Pearson and Manning will get the same overall results with the same overall level of squad.

The only person who would disagree with that is JL.

[Leabrook]

3 minutes ago, Tomo said:

11 months on he lands a championship job....

Talking to yourself is the first sign of madness!  Just need to find a manager who’s never been sacked…..

[ExiledAjax]

7 minutes ago, Galley is our king said:

So squad availability due to injuries doesn't come into it?

Check squad availability when we played Cardiff and before that.

Manning has many more available players than Pearson had and should be doing better than he is.

I've not said that. I responded to correct the figures that were quoted. Figures provided without context.

Adding context takes the ppg conversation in a different direction yes but if you state that Manning "should be doing better" then you align yourself to the thinking that this squad's natural position is what? Top 10, top 8, maybe dare I say top 6?

In my opinion that is too high. My opinion has always been that Pearson would not get this squad into the top 10 this season, and I don't think Manning will either.

But Manning will get to ride @W-S-M Seagull's elephant out of this room in the summer and I think - and this is an opinion - that he'll prove a capable mahout.

Edited February 21 by ExiledAjax

[cidercity1987]

10 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Let's hope that the start of MK Dons 22/23 season is not replicated for us in 24/25

Quote: 'Following an awful start to the season that found his side in the relegation zone, Manning was sacked on 11 December 2022 having accumulated just fifteen points from twenty matches, six points from safety and only off the bottom on goal difference'

 

It's a concern of mine, particularly if he rips up our solid if unspectacular central midfield in the summer

[RedRoss]

Just now, Gaseater said:

Yes I was browsing on the site and signed up after viewing on many occasions. What kind of nonsense post is this, so because I don’t think he should be sacked I am a Bristol Sport mole? How pathetic. Did I say Manning was the messiah….no, he is in my view doing an ok job, no more no less. I am pleased with some results but disappointed that he hasn’t yet found a solution to breaking down defensive sides. I would be interested to see a manning side after a preseason. 

Don't worry just ignore it. Every new user on here who isn't wholly negative is called a BS employee. Unfortunately this place resembles the paranoia of gaschat when they accuse everyone of being a city fan.

[Sir Geoff]

8 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Sunderland didn't consider it to be too soon for Beale. 1.17 ppg from 12 games. 

Currently Manning is on 1.27 ppg.

Manning was on 1.25 after 12 games.

Holden was sacked with a 1.44 ppg from 41 games.

Holden was also sacked from Charlton with a ppg of 1.28 from 32 games. 

Pearson was sacked with a higher PPG in the 18 games he managed this season. 18 games was enough to decide Pearsons future. 

It's OK to reserve judgment but to me there is a trend developing. 

Duff at Swansea 19 games ppg 1.11

[Silvio Dante]

12 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Let's hope that the start of MK Dons 22/23 season is not replicated for us in 24/25

Quote: 'Following an awful start to the season that found his side in the relegation zone, Manning was sacked on 11 December 2022 having accumulated just fifteen points from twenty matches, six points from safety and only off the bottom on goal difference'

 

To be fair, there were some external factors - he lost Twine and Darling having lost O’Reilly mid season so had to do without his three best players from the season before.

However, and this is a key point, he did have a full pre season to get his ideas across and to shape his squad. The prior year Russell Martin had done the pre season and Liam took over in August. There seems to be an accepted argument that Liam should have a pre season before he’s judged - I get the logic of that but it does belie the above problem, that with consistent “time on the grass” he has failed.

This article I’ve linked to before is pretty interesting (and on balance the Dons fan does say he was more adaptable in game than Martin but we’ve not seen that here)

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/liam-mannings-lessons-mk-dons-8897745.amp

but this is the key quote about the MK Dons season:

 

[The Journalist]

There are two separate issues here - both important, but separate.

The poster is absolutely right to continually call the club out over both Manning’s appointment and early results. The club lied to the fanbase about the reasons for the managerial change, they exaggerated the quality of the squad to make Pearson look worse and then - purely in my opinion - made short-term moves in January, despite the season largely being over, purely motivated to drag us two or three places up the table to save face.

The whole thing had been handled abysmally and just because everything isn’t as raw as it was three or four months ago they should still be held to account for this. Fans and local media shouldn’t just let that go!

However… does that mean Manning is a bad manager and should be measured by the same standards? Absolutely not - the club may have put him under unnecessary pressure by some of the communication but he’s going to need some time, including this summer, and patience.

We rightly gave Pearson time and Manning should have time too, whatever the rights and wrongs behind how we arrived here.

[ExiledAjax]

1 minute ago, The Journalist said:

There are two separate issues here - both important, but separate.

The poster is absolutely right to continually call the club out over both Manning’s appointment and early results. The club lied to the fanbase about the reasons for the managerial change, they exaggerated the quality of the squad to make Pearson look worse and then - purely in my opinion - made short-term moves in January, despite the season largely being over, purely motivated to drag us two or three places up the table to save face.

The whole thing had been handled abysmally and just because everything isn’t as raw as it was three or four months ago they should still be held to account for this. Fans and local media shouldn’t just let that go!

However… does that mean Manning is a bad manager and should be measured by the same standards? Absolutely not - the club may have put him under unnecessary pressure by some of the communication but he’s going to need some time, including this summer, and patience.

We rightly gave Pearson time and Manning should have time too, whatever the rights and wrongs behind how we arrived here.

Oh look. A well thought out post.

[Sir Geoff]

1 hour ago, Super said:

Yes because he deserves the chance to make this his team.

On what evidence, do you base that ?

[Capman]

9 minutes ago, The Journalist said:

There are two separate issues here - both important, but separate.

The poster is absolutely right to continually call the club out over both Manning’s appointment and early results. The club lied to the fanbase about the reasons for the managerial change, they exaggerated the quality of the squad to make Pearson look worse and then - purely in my opinion - made short-term moves in January, despite the season largely being over, purely motivated to drag us two or three places up the table to save face.

The whole thing had been handled abysmally and just because everything isn’t as raw as it was three or four months ago they should still be held to account for this. Fans and local media shouldn’t just let that go!

However… does that mean Manning is a bad manager and should be measured by the same standards? Absolutely not - the club may have put him under unnecessary pressure by some of the communication but he’s going to need some time, including this summer, and patience.

We rightly gave Pearson time and Manning should have time too, whatever the rights and wrongs behind how we arrived here.

Agreed the problem at City is in the boardroom, not the dugout. At some point Manning will just become another victim of it. 

[IAmNick]

25 minutes ago, OneTeamInBristol said:

Ancelotti wouldn't get promotion out of this league with this current squad.

Majority are mid-table Championship players which is where they'll end up come the end of the season.

Pearson and Manning will get the same overall results with the same overall level of squad.

I agree - but also surely the managers (head coach, whatever) job is to get the players performing at a level above their raw expectation?

If we have a 14th place budget, and a 14th place squad, and the manager gets them finishing in 14th that's not even a good job for me - that's just bang average. They're doing exactly what you'd expect.

Could you make the argument that a good manager would get the squad finishing above that?

8 minutes ago, The Journalist said:

We rightly gave Pearson time and Manning should have time too, whatever the rights and wrongs behind how we arrived here.

I agree with your entire post for the record, but just playing devil's advocate - why? I think we could perhaps get better at spotting when a manager isn't doing the job and ditch them sooner. I'd use Lee as an example, Gary before him, and many would also point to Pearson (I wouldn't but many would!).

We're a club who now are very used to our recent managers being given a fair chunk of time and leaving us pretty much where we started. Should we be more ruthless? The current "give them time, let them build their own squad" philosophy doesn't really seem to be paying dividends does it. I'm not advocating the Watford route of course, but we are a bit of an outlier I think.

Whether we have the right people at the club to be making those calls is another question of course... and we probably know the answer to that.

[spudski]

9 hours ago, SydneyCity said:

Maybe a bit harsh, but I don’t think Manning has his own style of play. He has “modern football 101”, which is why it’s so predictable and easy for other teams/managers to work out. They’ve all read the same textbook.

He needs to develop his own tweaks to the system to make it effective. This could come with a few years of real-world, fan facing, experience but I think he’s jumped up a level a few years too soon. I don’t blame him for this, but he should have spent a few more years honing his own style in leagues that are less tightly contested.

Modern football 101 will be occasionally successful against some of the Prem/Parachute teams but will ultimately fail due to those teams being able to outspend and out quality us. The rest of the Championship will just disrupt our predictable play.

My fears are, we’re paying for him to develop his own style, rather than getting someone in who has already been on that journey. Best case, we honour his contract but don’t really progress beyond mid-table to just outside the playoffs. Manning leaves on mildly amicable terms and goes on to have a decent career having got to tinker with his system at City. Worst case, we fail miserably next season and are left rudderless with a bunch of players who don’t fit any system.

Very much like your post. 

His style of play is agonisingly easy to see. It's very very basic as well. 

And as I've said countless times, proven by stats...that reliance on crosses to score goals is the least affective method, and so easy to defend against. 

In saying that...football can be overcomplicated. If we had the same movement and passing angles created in the last third, that we often create in the first thirds, then it could be more productive. 

But right now...if opposition teams are disciplined and not drawn into places we are trying to draw them ( to create holes/space) then we struggle to break teams down. 

We are most productive when other teams are in offensive mode, when we steal possession and counter..

[RollsRoyce]

12 hours ago, Edgy Red said:

Its all about opinions Dave. I liked Nige but i really didn't see how the football was evolving in his 3 years in charge, however i appreciate others have a different view.

I understand what Manning's philosophy is and i just want to get behind the team. It may end well, or it may not!

 

What is Manning's philosophy? 

[Sir Geoff]

28 minutes ago, Gaseater said:

Yes I was browsing on the site and signed up after viewing on many occasions. What kind of nonsense post is this, so because I don’t think he should be sacked I am a Bristol Sport mole? How pathetic. Did I say Manning was the messiah….no, he is in my view doing an ok job, no more no less. I am pleased with some results but disappointed that he hasn’t yet found a solution to breaking down defensive sides. I would be interested to see a manning side after a preseason. 

You can. MK Dons. Look how that ended.

[RollsRoyce]

11 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

The elephant in the room is that Manning gets criticised by some for a defeat much more than Pearson used too. And gets praised less for a win.  

He got a lot of praise for the Southampton win. How do you measure how much praise he gets? How do you compare the two? 

[Open End Numb Legs]

Right, my views:-

1. We can look easily top 6 on a day when the opposition look to play and we exploit space.

2. As mentioned before, we don't have a plan B when teams sit back.

3. I agree that 'Lee Johnson's tombola' approach was a problem and Manning might over think things. Tinkering with line ups hoping to stumble on a magic solution is not the answer. Keep it simple.

4. Any plan B needs a slight change in the forwards, for me (this is where I might get battered) that means having the option of a more physical player who can be a threat in a busy box. We need more, better crosses and more shots. At the moment a line up of Conway, Bell and Wells can be excellent on their day but, in my opinion, can be a bit lightweight and struggle without space to work those clever passes in.

5. I don't think we need to change philosophy or owners or manager, we just need an option or 2 when the game is not going the way we expected. This means Manning does deserve a bit more time to figure out this plan B and bring in someone (or 2) to bring those options off the bench.

Incoming!

[Son of Fred]

9 minutes ago, Open End Numb Legs said:

Right, my views:-

1. We can look easily top 6 on a day when the opposition look to play and we exploit space.

2. As mentioned before, we don't have a plan B when teams sit back.

3. I agree that 'Lee Johnson's tombola' approach was a problem and Manning might over think things. Tinkering with line ups hoping to stumble on a magic solution is not the answer. Keep it simple.

4. Any plan B needs a slight change in the forwards, for me (this is where I might get battered) that means having the option of a more physical player who can be a threat in a busy box. We need more, better crosses and more shots. At the moment a line up of Conway, Bell and Wells can be excellent on their day but, in my opinion, can be a bit lightweight and struggle without space to work those clever passes in.

5. I don't think we need to change philosophy or owners or manager, we just need an option or 2 when the game is not going the way we expected. This means Manning does deserve a bit more time to figure out this plan B and bring in someone (or 2) to bring those options off the bench.

Incoming!

Absolutely agree about needing another option/something different up front for the 'QPR' type games.

It's something we've needed for a very long while now imo.

[petehinton]

Only just spotted we’re now 10 points off 6th after last nights games. Thats some fall off, in fairness. 

[Numero Uno]

14 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

There is an uncomfortable truth that Manning has failed on the brief of making us compete this season. That objective has not been met.

We’ve had a few flashes in the pan but ultimately we have not taken the steps forward that Manning was expected to do.

He came in here and inherited a decent squad. The board felt the squad was good enough to compete. We all have our own opinions on that. I certainly felt that with a fair wind we could have potentially challenged.

I certainly feel as if the current team is underperforming and is behind of where it should be in it's evolution. I sit here and ask myself the question, would another head coach/manager have gotten more out of this squad? And the answer is a unequivocal yes.

Manning inherited probably the most talented and fittest squad that any manager at Bristol City has inherited for decades in my opinion. The culture was in place. All he needed to do was improve our results.

Up until this point I'm struggling to think of any major improvements we have made under Manning. Maybe slightly better when on the ball? But Manning has failed to sort issues out such as inconsistency, breaking down teams and not being able to beat teams that sit back.

He's been here for 23 games and there has been very little sign that he has the ability to sort these issues out. Teams have figured us out and there is no plan b.

Now I'm going early on this and I fully accept any flak I may get for going early but I'm looking towards the summer now.

Sunderland saw it wasn't working with Beale and got rid.

I hear lots of people say "well he needs a pre season, he needs his own players" etc. That excuse doesn't really wash with me. He was brought in to have us competing this season with this squad. The front foot football that we were promised has by and large not materialised.

Now the elephant in the room is - the summer. I've not seen anything of note that gives me confidence that even with a pre season, even with a few of his own players that he will be able to get us competing. Mannings in game management has given me concerns.

And that's the conundrum here. Do we alllow Manning to rip up this squad and rebuild it with players that suit his style with there being no guarantees that will work out or do we have those difficult conversations that actually this isn't working out how we expected it to?

I dont want to be getting to October/November next season and thinking great here's another lost opportunity.

9 points from the last 9 games / 2 wins from 9 is totally not acceptable.

 The point you are missing, the real elephant in the room, is if you sack him you are expecting the hierarchy to get the next appointment right.  With all the upheaval another sacking will bring we have to give Manning the next window and trust that the “flash in the pan” improvements we’ve seen to date translate into consistent improvements. I think he deserves that opportunity and if it doesn’t work out then Jon and Sid are in the firing line.

Overall we are where we would have been anyway had we kept Nige imo but we have to give Manning the chance to improve it. We are where we are and we aren’t going back.

Edited February 21 by Numero Uno

[Silvio Dante]

24 minutes ago, spudski said:

Very much like your post. 

His style of play is agonisingly easy to see. It's very very basic as well. 

And as I've said countless times, proven by stats...that reliance on crosses to score goals is the least affective method, and so easy to defend against. 

In saying that...football can be overcomplicated. If we had the same movement and passing angles created in the last third, that we often create in the first thirds, then it could be more productive. 

But right now...if opposition teams are disciplined and not drawn into places we are trying to draw them ( to create holes/space) then we struggle to break teams down. 

We are most productive when other teams are in offensive mode, when we steal possession and counter..

I don’t know if you saw the “Coaches Voice” video with Liam that @Davefevs posted the other day but it’s well worth watching. Essentially he was trying to illustrate what you’re saying he’s trying to do - draw opponents into areas and create overloads.

The problem is that the higher up you go the greater discipline opponents have and they don’t do what you want them to do. And again, that is really where his main problem lies and my instinct is that it’s ingrained and a pre season/recruitment changes nothing to resolve it from what I’ve seen thus far.

[Open End Numb Legs]

1 minute ago, Son of Fred said:

Absolutely agree about needing another option/something different up front for the 'QPR' type games.

It's something we've needed for a very long while now imo.

Thanks. It might mean taking a bit of a chance on a player, a proven player, say Moore for example, won't be too happy just being the bench option initially.

[RollsRoyce]

3 hours ago, TDarwall said:

In terms of due diligence, unless you're a top manager who will have the best choice of jobs, I don't think many perspective managers do much due diligence at all. I think they would just look here & see a regime that is "generally" supportive of managers & think that'll do for me.

 

You are incorrect, many will not take a career risk if the club does not match what they want to do. At least for high-quality options. We have been rejected in the past due to what people have seen of the club. That works the other way too, others have wanted to come due to what they have seen. Manning should have been aiming for Swansea in my view, another ex R. Martin team, it would have suited him better. 

[spudski]

2 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I don’t know if you saw the “Coaches Voice” video with Liam that @Davefevs posted the other day but it’s well worth watching. Essentially he was trying to illustrate what you’re saying he’s trying to do - draw opponents into areas and create overloads.

The problem is that the higher up you go the greater discipline opponents have and they don’t do what you want them to do. And again, that is really where his main problem lies and my instinct is that it’s ingrained and a pre season/recruitment changes nothing to resolve it from what I’ve seen thus far.

Yes I've seen it mate, and like you and Dave have also alluded, can see how easy it is to defend against if disciplined. 

And as we rightly say...the further up the pitch, the harder it becomes as the space is compressed and the opposition are more compact and generally have more players in that area. 

He very much comes across with an ingrained philosophy ( a one trick pony ). Other coaches will know how to defend against it. 

And as I've mentioned earlier, when we steal possession and counter, when the opposition are out of shape, or less numbers, we are affective. Not when we are trying to break down a well organised and disciplined opposition in defence. 

[Cowshed]

12 hours ago, spudski said:

Whilst I respect your reply RR...I think it's pretty obvious how he wishes to play. 

He spoken about his methods and it's obvious to the eye. 

It's actually easier to pick out than when under NP. 

I can now watch games, and it's so structured that I can call pretty much where each player is going to move after each passage of play. 

As others do and have pointed out. 

It is that drilled and structured. 

 

You could be describing the best teams in the Country.