Manning’s poisoned chalice

[IAmNick]

As has been done to death on here, there was a lot of anger in the fan base at the time directed towards the management of the club.

However it's clear that never really subsided even though it's been 4 or 5 months now - that was evident both on the forum here and at the games.

Now Manning is struggling the anger that was already there is being directed his way as well (fairly or not) and it's got very toxic very quickly 

That's the risk you run when you make decisions like the club did though - and also never really confront the fans anger head on meaning it takes a lot longer to subside. They've made their bed, now they have to lie in it. Manning is now caught in that crossfire too, but he's also not blameless by any stretch of the imagination imo.

[Natchfever]

8 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

As has been done to death on here, there was a lot of anger in the fan base at the time directed towards the management of the club.

However it's clear that never really subsided even though it's been 4 or 5 months now - that was evident both on the forum here and at the games.

Now Manning is struggling the anger that was already there is being directed his way as well (fairly or not) and it's got very toxic very quickly 

That's the risk you run when you make decisions like the club did though - and also never really confront the fans anger head on meaning it takes a lot longer to subside. They've made their bed, now they have to lie in it. Manning is now caught in that crossfire too, but he's also not blameless by any stretch of the imagination imo.

Manning isnt helping his cause by blaming everyone but himself.

Edited March 3 by Natchfever

[38MC]

10 minutes ago, S_C said:

He’s a young coach who has been successful at a lower level. For what JL/BT want, which as you say is what we’re stuck with for the foreseeable, I actually think LM is a good appointment.

BT/JL are, in my opinion, almost entirely culpable for the situation. Setting a top 6 narrative as opposed to more modest expectations has largely hung him out to dry. He doesn’t get a free pass, criticising his performance is fine, but there’s a huge gulf between that occurring against stated expectations vs reality. Fans are pissed off that they’ve been, pretty transparently, fed a line on NP’s exit, and it’s now the backdrop to the heat LM is getting.

The smart play here would be for BT/JL to take the pressure off him. Come out and admit they placed unrealistic expectations on him (which I believe started to happen in some sort of Christmas e-mail that was issued, where JL referenced things taking time), stress the need for patience, and take real ownership of the situation they have created. Certainly wont be holding my breath, but an honest interview acknowledging they put undue pressure on LM would help no end.

I agree 100% that BT and JL are the architects of this and are ultimately to blame. 

I’m do not agree LM is dealing with unrealistic expectations from the fan base or was set up to fail. None of the fans bought into the top 6 narrative and no-one is realistically using that as a measure of LM’s performance this season. It gets brought up quite often but I feel as a dig towards BT/JL for the stupid, rash decision they made in November. 

The reason LM is getting stick is because he’s showing himself simply not to be very good; at all. Just because his bosses are crap doesn’t mean he isn’t crap. I’m judging him by what I see for 90mins each week and how he manages in-game. And for me that’s the reason he hasn’t shown enough to continue in his role. 

And that goes for BT and JL too. They’ve shown they are incompetent stewards of our club. All 3 should go. Realistically only 2 will be going anytime soon and we know who those are… and based on what I’ve seen so far I do think they both will be gone before the season is out, possibly even in little over 7 days time. I think SL is going to come in and wield the hammer; I know I’m in the minority there, but it does feel much like when he came in to fix the Holden mess. 

[S_C]

22 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

He is a young coach who has been successful AND unsuccessful at a lower level.  He gets painted as a one way  upward trend.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but in three and a bit seasons he’s finished 3rd, 3rd and was 2nd, two of which were in L1? As you’ve said, he left MK Dons after a poor few months.

That’s a pretty solid record for a mid-table championship club looking for a young coach.

Let’s be clear on this, I’m not flying the Manning banner. I’ve stated elsewhere he’s underperforming and criticism is fine. My point is that he’s been put in an incredibly difficult position, presented as {immediately} leading us to the PL with a squad capable of doing so, replacing an old-school, no nonsense manager who was popular in large part and who had cleverly positioned himself against a hierarchy which many despise. If BT/JL now wash their hands of him, hide their culpability behind his performance, it will just be yet more weak management. 

Edited March 3 by S_C

[lenred]

2 minutes ago, S_C said:

If BT/JL now wash their hands of him, hide their culpability behind his performance, it will just be yet more weak management. 

That wouldn’t be the way I would see it.   If they hold their hands up and admit it was a mistake bringing Manning in at the time they did I’d actually gain a modicum of respect for them - as long as they admit they got it wrong in the first place.   Them doing that though is pie in the sky and will never happen. But they could.  

[Spike]

1 hour ago, Fordy62 said:

I suppose I’d suggest they’re two different arguments. Mine being that it’s not really his fault that he’s been put in charge. I’m not saying he’s not a crap coach, just that he shouldn’t be here. 

Who's fault is it when you have a good job and it's going well and then you decide to go for another job and then it turns out to be shit? 

Did you look up the job, did you do the research? Manning jumped at this job and it was made pretty clear to all what was expected. I don't feel sorry for someone who takes a shit job and then performs poorly at it. 

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, S_C said:

Broadly speaking, I feel similar.

Skimming through the Manning out posts/tweets, couldn’t help but think how misguided the anger was. He clearly hasn’t made a terrific start, and it’s fine to critique his teams performance and air frustrations with his mannerisms but how, in the space of four months, has it gone from BT/JL don’t know what they’re doing, to LM doesn’t know what he’s doing.

Now, both may be true, though I’d suggest there is more evidence that LM can coach a successful football team than BT/JL lead a successful football club, but to call for his head is to gloss over the issue in the extreme.

Let’s say he’s sacked this week, let’s say the new appointment hits the ground running. Is everything ok again? It’s a bizarre situation, but I almost don’t want a scenario where our results improve as a result of sacking LM. Everyone wants their club to be successful, of course, but he’s a product of a weak, inward, mentality, and was handed an absolute hospital pass with the ludicrous expectations set on his arrival. Clearly, that was constructed bollocks by a hierarchy which didn’t have the balls to tell the truth, and the time for pining over Pearson is gone, but it should not be forgotten, and the anger has to be primarily aimed higher than LM.

For what it’s worth, though my conviction on this is waning, I think we’ll be fine this season (this is caveated somewhat by if he still has the dressing room). I also think, presuming we are, we’ll throw money at in the summer and see improvement next season. Again, as per sacking LM, spending to cover mistakes is bittersweet, and we’ve been down that road before.

Ultimately, Manning needs time. And, ultimately, I think it’s in everyone’s interests to give it to him.

Manning was bought in to push us on from where we were , not turn us into a team of Zombies who are dropping quicker than Irene’s knickers at a family do. 
Where’s the evidence that the guy is going to turn us into the attacking front foot team that was indicated? 
He was meant to bring an attacking flair to add to our watertight defence but the first thing he did was fiddle with the bit that was working . 
 

[S_C]

9 minutes ago, 38MC said:

Just because his bosses are crap doesn’t mean he isn’t crap. I’m judging him by what I see for 90mins each week and how he manages in-game. And for me that’s the reason he hasn’t shown enough to continue in his role. 

Agree, and I think that’s absolutely fair.

Personally, I think we’re in the boat now. If we were to be relegated then the hope is it ushers significant change at higher levels. I’m of the opinion that we’ll be ok, and I think he should be given a summer and opening months. I don’t see that BT/JL replacing him, results improving enough to distance fears of relegation, is particularly beneficial long-term.

[Sir Geoff]

18 minutes ago, 38MC said:

I agree 100% that BT and JL are the architects of this and are ultimately to blame. 

I’m do not agree LM is dealing with unrealistic expectations from the fan base or was set up to fail. None of the fans bought into the top 6 narrative and no-one is realistically using that as a measure of LM’s performance this season. It gets brought up quite often but I feel as a dig towards BT/JL for the stupid, rash decision they made in November. 

The reason LM is getting stick is because he’s showing himself simply not to be very good; at all. Just because his bosses are crap doesn’t mean he isn’t crap. I’m judging him by what I see for 90mins each week and how he manages in-game. And for me that’s the reason he hasn’t shown enough to continue in his role. 

And that goes for BT and JL too. They’ve shown they are incompetent stewards of our club. All 3 should go. Realistically only 2 will be going anytime soon and we know who those are… and based on what I’ve seen so far I do think they both will be gone before the season is out, possibly even in little over 7 days time. I think SL is going to come in and wield the hammer; I know I’m in the minority there, but it does feel much like when he came in to fix the Holden mess. 

But it is reasonable to expect some improvement, whether it be results or playing style, otherwise why make the change. Manning is as culpable as anyone. He has regressed a decent group of players from being in touch with the top 10 to (Let's see) to being just above the relegation zone. 

[S_C]

9 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Manning was bought in to push us on from where we were , not turn us into a team of Zombies who are dropping quicker than Irene’s knickers at a family do. 
Where’s the evidence that the guy is going to turn us into the attacking front foot team that was indicated? 
He was meant to bring an attacking flair to add to our watertight defence but the first thing he did was fiddle with the bit that was working . 
 

He was brought in to fit the model BT/JL wanted, and because a more seasoned head was clearly causing too much trouble.

I have little to no doubt the club would prefer to finish this season 16th under Manning than 8th under Pearson.

Again, I’m not championing Manning.

Again, he does not get a free pass.

He has been more successful than not during his career and I don’t see that changing him now, for someone with the same profile, really tackles the issue.

[LondonBristolian]

I agree that Manning inherited a poisoned chalice and a lot of responsibility sits with the board for putting him in a position where it was extremely hard for him to succeed.

 

However, even as someone who has pushed for giving Manning a chance, I have lost patience. He has inherited a solid, resilient tactically shrewd team with a great work ethic which lacked flair and creativity and struggled to break sides down. He has failed to improve on our weaknesses and whilst undoing our strengths and he seems intent on blaming the players for his failure to get the best out of them. He inherited a situation where few managers would have succeeded in winning over the fanbase or meeting the unrealistic expectations set out by the board but I still feel he is doing a poor job even within that context.

[JP Hampton]

 Haven’t read everything as I’m off out but… It occurred to me that if LM recognises he doesn’t have the players to play the model he’s teaching, then something has to Change because that situation, is going to remain the same, for the rest of the season (with the odd player returning from injury, not withstanding).

 Now we’ll see how he actually performs as a coach, accepting the status quo and actually being forced to return to a style of play that he inherited ie. playing to players strengths, albeit with a longer term focus on developing current and new players in the summer, to the style of play he clearly wants his team to play.  

[Redrascal2]

1 hour ago, Andy082005 said:

It’s not about passion. It’s about being up to the job 

He quite simply isn’t. This is a LJ scenario all over again where we have taken a young coach and we are allowing him to learn his trade on the job 

Manning is going to cop it from the fans big time. It’s a shame but that’s the reality of football I’m afraid. You take the top job know if it doesn’t work out you will cop the flak 

Get him gone now before it’s too late. As someone mentioned earlier, go get someone like Heckingbottom - it’s not an ideal choice but at least he has experience of this league 

 

Agree with most of your post but if the coach/manager has no passion then he should not be in competitive sport. Look at the top managers for example Pep, Klopp, Ferguson and Wenger in his day all were brilliant and knew football inside out but all had a passion and desire. Manning is like a hologram. There is nothing there to inspire players or fans alike. A glance to the sidelines to see Pearson demanding more would get a reaction a look at Manning inspires nothing.

[Davefevs]

51 minutes ago, S_C said:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but in three and a bit seasons he’s finished 3rd, 3rd and was 2nd, two of which were in L1? As you’ve said, he left MK Dons after a poor few months.

That’s a pretty solid record for a mid-table championship club looking for a young coach.

Let’s be clear on this, I’m not flying the Manning banner. I’ve stated elsewhere he’s underperforming and criticism is fine. My point is that he’s been put in an incredibly difficult position, presented as {immediately} leading us to the PL with a squad capable of doing so, replacing an old-school, no nonsense manager who was popular in large part and who had cleverly positioned himself against a hierarchy which many despise. If BT/JL now wash their hands of him, hide their culpability behind his performance, it will just be yet more weak management. 

Liam Manning’s career in this country:

Lommel 20-21 finished 3rd (fyi Belgium Challenger Pro is an 8 team league - I don’t think anybody mentioned that before) i can’t comment on whether this was a success or not.

MK Dons 21-22 took over gameweek 2 - finished 3rd, lost in playoff semis

MK Dons 22-23 sacked in gameweek 21 - in 22nd place (that’s the unsuccessful part)

Oxford 22-23 took over with 10 games left and Oxford in 19th - finished 19th

Oxford 23-24 left in 2nd place after 15 games

+++++

I guess if you’re counting 15 games this season at Oxford as a success, you should count 21 at MKD too.

[38MC]

1 hour ago, Sir Geoff said:

But it is reasonable to expect some improvement, whether it be results or playing style, otherwise why make the change. Manning is as culpable as anyone. He has regressed a decent group of players from being in touch with the top 10 to (Let's see) to being just above the relegation zone. 

Absolutely. To be honest, even maintenance would have probably been just about okay and on you go to the summer window if we are to allow for transitioning. 

I have for a long time not taken to LM, but he lost me, probably for good, with his post match presser last week, pre match presser this week, and post match. 
 

1 bad performance in 20; chucking players under the bus, but worst of all was saying ‘I coached them how to defend that corner Cardiff scored from’… we’ll you weren’t very good at it then, were you?! 

Edited March 3 by 38MC

[Superjack]

3 hours ago, Swede said:

This is what happens when the owner takes his foot off the pedal and takes advice from his son who's only credentials are that he's the son of the owner, nothing more and that also includes the loans manager/part time chief executive. I can't understand why he couldn't leave the football side to the experienced team he employed in the first place. It would leave him to concentrate fully on the Sporting Quarter development and ultimately selling. He must regret the decision to let his son make important decisions now.

He never regrets anything.

[Silvio Dante]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Liam Manning’s career in this country:

Lommel 20-21 finished 3rd (fyi Belgium Challenger Pro is an 8 team league - I don’t think anybody mentioned that before) i can’t comment on whether this was a success or not.

MK Dons 21-22 took over gameweek 2 - finished 3rd, lost in playoff semis

MK Dons 22-23 sacked in gameweek 21 - in 22nd place (that’s the unsuccessful part)

Oxford 22-23 took over with 10 games left and Oxford in 19th - finished 19th

Oxford 23-24 left in 2nd place after 15 games

+++++

I guess if you’re counting 15 games this season at Oxford as a success, you should count 21 at MKD too.

This, a thousand times over.

Liam has had one successful season. A season where he took over a primed and ready squad Russell Martin put together with the three best players in the league. In those circumstances being beaten by Wycombe in the playoffs could even be classed as failure!

He had a summer. He recruited his own men, to his plan (side note - love that Ian on FBC said he didn’t want to sell Twine. No shit Sherlock. I’m sure the Brum manager wanted to keep Bellingham!) - he failed. Massively.

He has had a start of this season under his own steam and did well. 15 games. That’s not data - it’s an anecdote. And that’s the only period you can put solely down to his management - and if you read the Oxford forum they, although liking him, felt it was a false position.

And then here.

So now someone tell me why it’s a good idea to keep him for the summer to get his players?

[Roger Red Hat]

It really says it all that the fools in charge decide to sack an established manager  and replace him with  the coach  who's team we beat 5-1 only a month or two previously!

[fgrsimon]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Liam Manning’s career in this country:

Lommel 20-21 finished 3rd (fyi Belgium Challenger Pro is an 8 team league - I don’t think anybody mentioned that before) i can’t comment on whether this was a success or not.

MK Dons 21-22 took over gameweek 2 - finished 3rd, lost in playoff semis

MK Dons 22-23 sacked in gameweek 21 - in 22nd place (that’s the unsuccessful part)

Oxford 22-23 took over with 10 games left and Oxford in 19th - finished 19th

Oxford 23-24 left in 2nd place after 15 games

 

Oxford 22-23 took over with 10 games left and Oxford in 19th - finished 19th

I mentioned this elsewhere, *Oxford stayed up last season by he skin of their teeth because they beat FGR in the last but one game. FGR have been the worst team in the EFL for the last 2 years and an absolute gift for struggling teams (see yesterday). If it hadn't been for that game Oxford could very easily have been relegated on the  last day and he wouldn't even have been of any interest to BCFC or any Championship club. So basically we hired someone largely due to a victory over FGR! Sliding doors moment.

*They also thrashed Cheltenham in the game before FGR. Cheltenham were on the beach having just ensured League 1 survival against the odds and had probably been on the lash for a few days.

I have no sympathy for him, no-one forced him to take this job, he knew he had zero Championship experience and would have known there was a risk it wouldn't work out.

 

 

 

[Sheltons Army]

5 minutes ago, fgrsimon said:

Oxford 22-23 took over with 10 games left and Oxford in 19th - finished 19th

I mentioned this elsewhere, *Oxford stayed up last season by he skin of their teeth because they beat FGR in the last but one game. FGR have been the worst team in the EFL for the last 2 years and an absolute gift for struggling teams (see yesterday). If it hadn't been for that game Oxford could very easily have been relegated on the  last day and he wouldn't even have been of any interest to BCFC or any Championship club. So basically we hired someone largely due to a victory over FGR! Sliding doors moment.

*They also thrashed Cheltenham in the game before FGR. Cheltenham were on the beach having just ensured League 1 survival against the odds and had probably been on the lash for a few days.

I have no sympathy for him, no-one forced him to take this job, he knew he had zero Championship experience and would have known there was a risk it wouldn't work out.

 

 

 

His ‘CV’ isn’t really up too much when you actually look at it ( @Silvio Dantehas maintained this all along)

 

You could suggest its not only not particularly comforting but is actually flawed

[Engvall’s Splinter]

I think it shows what a sterling job Pearson was doing here by holding it together. His experience appears to of been papering over the club cracks. Now he’s departed, we have a load of novices running the football/club operation. It’s been exposed. 

[REDOXO]

4 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

In my 35 years of supporting City never have I seen a manager set up to fail quite so badly by the top brass. I said it at the time of his appointment that he’d been dealt a poisoned chalice and it’s playing out exactly as I hoped it wouldn’t. 

So let’s try to remember that none of this is Manning’s fault. He took a lucrative job that none of would have turned down and none of us can blame him for taking. I’m sure he and his team are trying their very best.

Fortunately I lost my mojo for Bristol City when Nige was sacked. I saw it before with Cotterill and history has repeated itself. I say fortunately because I find myself really not caring too much about our games, how we’re performing etc. I find it sad I feel like this, but it helps eliminate the problem of the City result ruining your weekend - which I suspect is how many of you feel right now. 

But I suppose my main point is try not to get on Manning’s back. It’s not his fault. 

I’m grateful for the investment the Lansdowns have made, our new stadium is brilliant and we’re in a really good place off the pitch. But I think we’ve definitely run our course now, and with my very best wishes it’s time they sold up and left. And if they wouldn’t mind taking their mate Bri with them at the same time, that’d be ideal. They’re getting the comeuppance they deserve in spades. Completely out of their depth. 

I suppose you could sum up my feelings on them the same way they dealt with Nige. You feel the need to gamble on something new, yeh, it could well be worse, but it’s probably worth the gamble. 

Holden was set up to fail in almost exactly the same way! Its what we do!

[Superjack]

3 minutes ago, Engvall’s Splinter said:

I think it shows what a sterling job Pearson was doing here by holding it together. His experience appears to of been papering over the club cracks. Now he’s departed, we have a load of novices running the football/club operation. It’s been exposed. 

Not sure about exposed. 

I think we all knew NP was fighting against the tide.

[1team]

I understand people saying he has been handed a poisoned chalice and clearly he has and subsequently shown he is out of his depth. However what he was handed was one of the fittest most together squads that would run through  walls for NP and at no point has he doffed his cap to that. He has questioned the previous regime and the way the players were coached.

For me that is disrespectful and arrogant,  so he deserves all the criticism he is receiving.

[38MC]

11 minutes ago, Engvall’s Splinter said:

I think it shows what a sterling job Pearson was doing here by holding it together. His experience appears to of been papering over the club cracks. Now he’s departed, we have a load of novices running the football/club operation. It’s been exposed. 

I’m not sure you can read across the two to be honest. But the only reason is because manning is really not that good (see the 5 posts above, and what our own eyes tell us). 

I’m a Pearson fan, very much so and appreciate what he did with what he had, it’s just a bit meh comparing a pear to a rotten apple. I’m not surprised Pearson has achieved more than Manning, because in terms of managerial qualities, I don’t think the two should be in the same sentence. 

I’ve said before and I’ve said again, I think our criteria must have been ‘media friendly and young’… it certainly couldn’t have been competency based our decision to appoint him. 
 

oh and unfortunately, he ain’t even media friendly. 

Edited March 3 by 38MC

[W-S-M Seagull]

Sorry but saying it was a poisoned chalice is absolute tosh.

He came in here and had a golden opportunity. He had a very decent squad. The most talented group of players he's ever had. He inherited a squad that had a good cculture. We were in a decent position when he was appointed.

He came in and immediately tried to do Manning ball. That QPR game will forever live in the memory as one of the most boring games I've ever seen. He overloaded players with information and drew silly arrows on the training pitch. 

He had a very little understanding about this squad. He refused to play to our strengths and instead attempted to get players to play to his way. Conway being a prime example of that. 

These failures are down to Liam Manning and no one else. 

[AppyDAZE]

Go back to just after Pearson was given his marching orders, how many on here were saying if it's Manning I'll be totally underwhelmed. Let's be fair, it was lots of us. And once again, as with when it was given to Holden, who are turning out to be proven right? It's not something I'm delighted about, this appointment was never going to work in a million years. It's yet another Lansdown **** up, and for me finally one too many. Please sell up and go.

[W-S-M Seagull]

34 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

His ‘CV’ isn’t really up too much when you actually look at it ( @Silvio Dantehas maintained this all along)

 

You could suggest its not only not particularly comforting but is actually flawed

I got trolled by certain members for me mentioning the fact he got sacked by MK. 

Manning somehow managed to convince Tinnion that the reason he was sacked was because he was given loads of players that he didn't want. If we were to believe him on that then I raised my concerns about his ability to work with players he didnt sign because obviously the expectation was that he would have to work with our current squad and improve them. 

However if you look at the transfers MK made that summer, he had previous connections to them. So his claims that he had no input in transfers and therefore removing himself from any blame is very disingenuous. 

Considering we're now seeing him throw our players under the bus it's very clear that Liam Manning refuses to take any responsibility which is not a good trait to have. 

[Numero Uno]

5 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

In my 35 years of supporting City never have I seen a manager set up to fail quite so badly by the top brass. I said it at the time of his appointment that he’d been dealt a poisoned chalice and it’s playing out exactly as I hoped it wouldn’t. 

So let’s try to remember that none of this is Manning’s fault. He took a lucrative job that none of would have turned down and none of us can blame him for taking. I’m sure he and his team are trying their very best.

Fortunately I lost my mojo for Bristol City when Nige was sacked. I saw it before with Cotterill and history has repeated itself. I say fortunately because I find myself really not caring too much about our games, how we’re performing etc. I find it sad I feel like this, but it helps eliminate the problem of the City result ruining your weekend - which I suspect is how many of you feel right now. 

But I suppose my main point is try not to get on Manning’s back. It’s not his fault. 

I’m grateful for the investment the Lansdowns have made, our new stadium is brilliant and we’re in a really good place off the pitch. But I think we’ve definitely run our course now, and with my very best wishes it’s time they sold up and left. And if they wouldn’t mind taking their mate Bri with them at the same time, that’d be ideal. They’re getting the comeuppance they deserve in spades. Completely out of their depth. 

I suppose you could sum up my feelings on them the same way they dealt with Nige. You feel the need to gamble on something new, yeh, it could well be worse, but it’s probably worth the gamble. 

What I can’t “feel sorry” for is when he talks like a top coach with his Power Point speak then “backs it up” with multiple 1-0 home defeats against crap sides who would have been happy to leave the Gate with a point using his patented Bore Ball.

[ralphindevon]

I think we’re stuck with him until at least the Autumn.

The only event I can see shortening his tenure would be a Tinnion/Swansea moment.

From memory we haven’t suffered a hiding for a long time, a very bad day at Birmingham last season but 3-0 not really a hiding. Maybe Fulham away over 2 years ago, 6-2! 

Anyway, when do we play Swansea?