Ipswich view

[MelksRed]

1 minute ago, italian dave said:

This isn’t some sort of LJ v NP thing - not in my mind anyway

Nor me - just stating fact. 

[Davefevs]

34 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Kid - nobody is denying that the board and the entire footballing structure needs replacing. And I know you’ve been an advocate of Manning. But it is apparent that the fools errand based on the performance here is retaining him - and worse, letting him loose on the purse strings in the summer.

If you want to start the petition to get the Lansdowns to go I’ll gladly sign it. I’ll do the same for Tinnion. The whole football operation needs an overhaul but that shouldn’t be a reason not to determine if the head coach is appropriate. 

He’s a bad fit. I’m not sure that you’ve got anything here other than “well he might do better at Ipswich” - he’s not doing well here, and it’s only getting worse.

To flip the question, why is it not a fools errand to retain him, based on what he’s done so far at this football club? 

The right manager here could make a positive impact DESPITE the hierarchy.

It’s far too easy to say - “keep the wrong manager because it’s not right above him”.  But essentially it’s the football manager downwards that’s the most important part of the structure at this point in time.  The rest can wait.

[italian dave]

3 minutes ago, MelksRed said:

Nor me - just stating fact. 

OK.

And I don’t disagree. I just wasn’t sure why it followed in response to a discussion about league positions under LJ.

Sure we were in a financial mess. But LJ hadn’t been in charge of the money. 

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Yes, absolutely. I agree.

Covid didn’t help either, mind.

This isn’t some sort of LJ v NP thing - not in my mind anyway.

They had entirely different objectives.

LJ’s was league position.  Consolidation, then improvement, then in his last season, top 6. Others made the decision about how much money he got, not him. And we went shit for bust that last season (like plenty others did). Again, financially, not his decision. And for much of his tenure he succeeded: failed at the end with that last one. But that doesn’t negate the overall achievements over his tenure.

NP’s was entirely different. And yes, as you say, driven by financial imperatives, cutting costs, saving us from FFP consequences. Whilst treading water. And he did a great job. We put the books in order without ever really flirting with relegation - although a season when others had big points deductions helped!  His problem at the end of the day seems to have been maintaining relationships.

But the point is that they both had different jobs to do and both did decent enough jobs on the whole. 

But when you know the owner is desperate for you to succeed, its amazing how persuasive you can be - just one more player, that’s all I need.

And another.

And another.

It suited both LJ and MA…a “toxic” combo in some respects.

Until even SL had had enough.

[W-S-M Seagull]

I've heard every excuse in the book for Manning from not enough time on the grass to it's not his squad and now it's it will be the same people appointing a new manager so may aswell just keep Manning. It's desperation. 

 

Edited March 6 by W-S-M Seagull

[Silvio Dante]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The right manager here could make a positive impact DESPITE the hierarchy.

It’s far too easy to say - “keep the wrong manager because it’s not right above him”.  But essentially it’s the football manager downwards that’s the most important part of the structure at this point in time.  The rest can wait.

Which is essentially the Ian Gay argument from this morning….

[Sheltons Army]

1 minute ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I've heard every excuse in the book for Manning from not enough time on the grass to it's not his squad and now it's it will be the same people appointing a new manager so may aswell just keep Manning. It's desperation. 

 

 

Just now, Silvio Dante said:

Which is essentially the Ian Gay argument from this morning….

Was going to say - This is the Guru Gays attitude

 

And a few others

So if its decided the new bloke isn’t up to it, because the same people will choose his successor , let’s not bother doing anything and just take what’s coming

 

Truly bizarre

[italian dave]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

But when you know the owner is desperate for you to succeed, its amazing how persuasive you can be - just one more player, that’s all I need.

And another.

And another.

It suited both LJ and MA…a “toxic” combo in some respects.

Until even SL had had enough.

Sure.

But ultimately it should have been MA (and SL) calling the shots there. The financial buck stopped with them.

And actually I don’t think it helped LJ one jot in the end. Too many options. 

 

[Sheltons Army]

2 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Sure.

But ultimately it should have been MA (and SL) calling the shots there. The financial buck stopped with them.

And actually I don’t think it helped LJ one jot in the end. Too many options. 

 

So you absolve LJ of any responsibility or blame ?

[italian dave]

2 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

So you absolve LJ of any responsibility or blame ?

I’m not saying that. I don’t really know the answer to that because I don’t know enough about how roles, responsibilities, accountabilities and objectives were operated at the time.

But that’s not what this discussion was about. It was explicitly about what LJ achieved in terms of league position. I did acknowledge at the outset that there were legitimate challenges around the resources etc he had. 

[italian dave]

20 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I've heard every excuse in the book for Manning from not enough time on the grass to it's not his squad and now it's it will be the same people appointing a new manager so may aswell just keep Manning. It's desperation. 

 

Isn’t that because the two views start from two different premises.

I think we’d all agree that we could appoint a worse manager than LM. We could appoint me, for example!

And at the other extreme, we’d probably all welcome Jurgen Klopp taking over tomorrow, but it ain’t going to happen!

So the reality lies somewhere in between me and Jurgen Klopp  

And within that range there’s a whole array of variables around competence, availability, fit, cost and so on. Theres no absolute guarantee that anyone within that range will bring us greater success, so it’s a judgement call. 

Now, your starting point is that you’ve already written LM off.

Others haven’t.

They are both legitimate opinions: there’s no right and wrong, no absolute certainty there. But the consequence is that you’ll have a different take on the risks around the replacement and your judgement will probably draw a line in a different place to someone who’s not written him off.

Nothing wrong with that, but it’s only ‘desperation’ if you start from the premise that you do.

(Ultimately, it’s 99% sure you’ll be right of course . We all know pretty much all managerial careers end in failure eventually - it’s just a case of whether it’s this month, this year or in 4 years time!) 

 

[Kid in the Riot]

55 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The right manager here could make a positive impact DESPITE the hierarchy.

It’s far too easy to say - “keep the wrong manager because it’s not right above him”.  But essentially it’s the football manager downwards that’s the most important part of the structure at this point in time.  The rest can wait.

Could make a negative impact too given it'll be the hierarchy making the decision.

In fact, history would suggest it's more likely their new hire would be crap than any good. 

[Davefevs]

52 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Which is essentially the Ian Gay argument from this morning….

Which is rationale for it to be a bad argument?

38 minutes ago, italian dave said:

I’m not saying that. I don’t really know the answer to that because I don’t know enough about how roles, responsibilities, accountabilities and objectives were operated at the time.

But that’s not what this discussion was about. It was explicitly about what LJ achieved in terms of league position. I did acknowledge at the outset that there were legitimate challenges around the resources etc he had. 

LJ pleaded with SL to give him Nahki Wells - “he’s the final piece of the jigsaw” and by the time he was relieved of his duties and Wells wasn’t even starting (nor Benkovic, nor Henriksen).  Even SL lost patience!

Just now, Kid in the Riot said:

Could make a negative impact too given it'll be the hierarchy making the decision.

In fact, history would suggest it's more likely their new hire would be crap than any good. 

More negative impact than LM?

More crap than LM?

All relative isn’t it?

Im sure your history of management appointments is better than mine, but has a previous manager appointment regressed us as quickly from such a good position?

[italian dave]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

LJ pleaded with SL to give him Nahki Wells - “he’s the final piece of the jigsaw” and by the time he was relieved of his duties and Wells wasn’t even starting (nor Benkovic, nor Henriksen).  Even SL lost patience!
I’m not sure whether you know that to be the case, or whether it’s just another of the countless myths that surround every manager. But in either case, I’d suspect that the final straw had nothing to do with Nahki Wells, it was the disappearance of any realistic prospect of a top 6 finish. 

More negative impact than LM?

More crap than LM?

All relative isn’t it?

Im sure your history of management appointments is better than mine, but has a previous manager appointment regressed us as quickly from such a good position?

See my post above in response to WSM. It’s relative, but I think that where you draw the line in terms of ‘more’ crap/negative will depend on your staring point.

[Davefevs]

28 minutes ago, italian dave said:

 We will have to wait for one of LJ’s three books!  There was more slack in our finishing position without those signings!

[W-S-M Seagull]

54 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Isn’t that because the two views start from two different premises.

I think we’d all agree that we could appoint a worse manager than LM. We could appoint me, for example!

And at the other extreme, we’d probably all welcome Jurgen Klopp taking over tomorrow, but it ain’t going to happen!

So the reality lies somewhere in between me and Jurgen Klopp  

And within that range there’s a whole array of variables around competence, availability, fit, cost and so on. Theres no absolute guarantee that anyone within that range will bring us greater success, so it’s a judgement call. 

Now, your starting point is that you’ve already written LM off.

Others haven’t.

They are both legitimate opinions: there’s no right and wrong, no absolute certainty there. But the consequence is that you’ll have a different take on the risks around the replacement and your judgement will probably draw a line in a different place to someone who’s not written him off.

Nothing wrong with that, but it’s only ‘desperation’ if you start from the premise that you do.

(Ultimately, it’s 99% sure you’ll be right of course . We all know pretty much all managerial careers end in failure eventually - it’s just a case of whether it’s this month, this year or in 4 years time!) 

 

No, as I said in my post it's just the next excuse as to why we shouldn't sack him from people who are desperate to not be wrong about sacking Nige and appointing Manning. 

Next week the excuse will probably be something like "can't sack him cos of the compo"

We have seen clubs make changes this season based on managers having similar records and time as Manning. They obviously didn't go along with the thought process of "well it could be worse, we might not be able to find someone better" that our fans are now putting out there. 

I'd say the general consensus is that 80% (being generous) want him to be replaced. So trying to frame it as a me against others is a bit disingenuous. 

Youve mentioned my starting point which was "not the right fit for us" but have failed to mention others starting point which was 'best up and coming young manager in England' and 'he's not Nigel' that's a bit unbalanced. 

I'd be absolutely shocked if anyone could do worse with this squad. It's a decent squad that should have comfortably reached mid table yet here we are looking over our shoulders at the relegation zone. It's been an absolute failure whatever way you decide to look at starting points. 1.10 ppg is just absolutely unacceptable with the squad that he has. 

I'm very confident in my belief that another manager could get far more out of this squad. 

The same people that are using the excuse of "we might not appoint someone better" is the same people who wanted Nige out and didn't hold that view over his dismissal. 

Basically their view was we could get better than Pearson but we can't get better than Manning and that sort of flip flopping is what I'm calling out. 

[italian dave]

12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 We will have to wait for one of LJ’s three books!  There was more slack in our finishing position without those signings!

ha ha...yes, I've often wondered if/when those will be forthcoming. Especially now he has some time on his hands!!

[italian dave]

13 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

No, as I said in my post it's just the next excuse as to why we shouldn't sack him from people who are desperate to not be wrong about sacking Nige and appointing Manning. 

Next week the excuse will probably be something like "can't sack him cos of the compo"

We have seen clubs make changes this season based on managers having similar records and time as Manning. They obviously didn't go along with the thought process of "well it could be worse, we might not be able to find someone better" that our fans are now putting out there. 

I'd say the general consensus is that 80% (being generous) want him to be replaced. So trying to frame it as a me against others is a bit disingenuous. 

Youve mentioned my starting point which was "not the right fit for us" but have failed to mention others starting point which was 'best up and coming young manager in England' and 'he's not Nigel' that's a bit unbalanced. 

I'd be absolutely shocked if anyone could do worse with this squad. It's a decent squad that should have comfortably reached mid table yet here we are looking over our shoulders at the relegation zone. It's been an absolute failure whatever way you decide to look at starting points. 1.10 ppg is just absolutely unacceptable with the squad that he has. 

I'm very confident in my belief that another manager could get far more out of this squad. 

The same people that are using the excuse of "we might not appoint someone better" is the same people who wanted Nige out and didn't hold that view over his dismissal. 

Basically their view was we could get better than Pearson but we can't get better than Manning and that sort of flip flopping is what I'm calling out. 

Just to clarify two things WSM:

- I'm not trying to frame it as you against others. I'm saying you hold that view. Others hold the same view, others hold a different view. They're all legitimate.

- by starting point I meant your starting point now for assessing the likelihood of us doing better if we appoint someone else. Not your starting point when LM was appointed.

Oh, and a third - I could do worse with this squad. 

I'm confident that another manager could get more too. Jurgen Klopp. But we're not going to get him. And the point I'm making is that - because of your starting point - you're going to see a great many more inferior options than that as being better options than we've got. You've said as much yourself - almost anyone. Someone who doesn't start from that point, someone who hasn't written LM off, will still see Jurgen Clop as a better option but may not see as many others as you do.

But it's all opinion and guesswork. None of us can be certain. Your view is as legitimate as anyone else's. But so is the other persons. 

Not sure what Pearson has to do with it. 

Edited March 6 by italian dave

[The Original OTIB]

2 hours ago, italian dave said:

Sure.

But ultimately it should have been MA (and SL) calling the shots there. The financial buck stopped with them.

And actually I don’t think it helped LJ one jot in the end. Too many options. 

 

Clubs in the bag.

[W-S-M Seagull]

10 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Just to clarify two things WSM:

- I'm not trying to frame it as you against others. I'm saying you hold that view. Others hold the same view, others hold a different view. They're all legitimate.

- by starting point I meant your starting point now for assessing the likelihood of us doing better if we appoint someone else. Not your starting point when LM was appointed.

Oh, and a third - I could do worse with this squad. 

I'm confident that another manager could get more too. Jurgen Klopp. But we're not going to get him. And the point I'm making is that - because of your starting point - you're going to see a great many more inferior options than that as being better options than we've got. You've said as much yourself - almost anyone. Someone who doesn't start from that point, someone who hasn't written LM off, will still see Jurgen Clop as a better option but may not see as many others as you do.

But it's all opinion and guesswork. None of us can be certain. Your view is as legitimate as anyone else's. But so is the other persons. 

Not sure what Pearson has to do with it. 

Come on Dave, you're trying to frame it as if my opinion on this is outrageous it appears. I'm very much not alone in thinking that we need go make a managerial change. 

I'm not sure what quality it brings to the debate talking about Jurgan Klopp. 

You're trying to frame it as if I think 'anyone but Manning' 

When he goes I won't be sat here saying "yea he'll do cos he isn't Manning" like people are over Manning/Pearson. I'll be sat here demanding the best appointment for Bristol City and I'll be similarly pissed off if we made another Manning type appointment. 

My opinion is backed by the fact Manning has got 1.10 ppg over almost half a season with a squad that should be doing much better than that. 

We don't need Jurgan Klopp to improve us from 1.10 ppg. Most competent Managers thst we could attract would out perform that. 

Edited March 6 by W-S-M Seagull

[S_C]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

but has a previous manager appointment regressed us as quickly from such a good position?

Constantly feel the need to make this clear, because it is important to stress this isn’t coming from a pro-Manning (or anti-Pearson) angle.

I liked Pearson. I was angry he was let go. I did blow hot and cold with him, but I certainly felt we were heading in the right direction.

I’m unconvinced by Manning. Though I think, broadly, post Ipswich was fine, I’m not huge on his talk. I’d like to hear more praise and protection for players. This, and even decisiveness/game management, i’m willing (currently) to accept is inexperience. We’ve had some good performances but, admittedly, more deflating ones. He’s no more than 3/10 but, as there were for Pearson, there are circumstances I sympathise with beyond his control. If we’re poor and lose to Swansea, I agree there’s a very strong argument he should go.

That said, and returning to quote..

When Pearson went, after losing to Cardiff, we were 15th and had lost 5 in 7. To say ‘such a good position’ even if you are right to imply we were in a better position, is re-writing history.

[The Original OTIB]

1 minute ago, S_C said:

Constantly feel the need to make this clear, because it is important to stress this isn’t coming from a pro-Manning (or anti-Pearson) angle.

I liked Pearson. I was angry he was let go. I did blow hot and cold with him, but I certainly felt we were heading in the right direction.

I’m unconvinced by Manning. Though I think, broadly, post Ipswich was fine, I’m not huge on his talk. I’d like to hear more praise and protection for players. This, and even decisiveness/game management, i’m willing (currently) to accept is inexperience. We’ve had some good performances but, admittedly, more deflating ones. He’s no more than 3/10 but, as there were for Pearson, there are circumstances I sympathise with beyond his control. If we’re poor and lose to Swansea, I agree there’s a very strong argument he should go.

That said, and returning to quote..

When Pearson went, after losing to Cardiff, we were 15th and had lost 5 in 7. To say ‘such a good position’ even if you are right to imply we were in a better position, is re-writing history.

He'd earned the right for time and financial backing. Big difference.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1.1 PPG is back worse than 2021-22 really. Going bsck 3 years or I dunno how long, what sample size? 21 games?

[Davefevs]

38 minutes ago, S_C said:

Constantly feel the need to make this clear, because it is important to stress this isn’t coming from a pro-Manning (or anti-Pearson) angle.

I liked Pearson. I was angry he was let go. I did blow hot and cold with him, but I certainly felt we were heading in the right direction.

I’m unconvinced by Manning. Though I think, broadly, post Ipswich was fine, I’m not huge on his talk. I’d like to hear more praise and protection for players. This, and even decisiveness/game management, i’m willing (currently) to accept is inexperience. We’ve had some good performances but, admittedly, more deflating ones. He’s no more than 3/10 but, as there were for Pearson, there are circumstances I sympathise with beyond his control. If we’re poor and lose to Swansea, I agree there’s a very strong argument he should go.

That said, and returning to quote..

When Pearson went, after losing to Cardiff, we were 15th and had lost 5 in 7. To say ‘such a good position’ even if you are right to imply we were in a better position, is re-writing history.

My position / opinion is much wider than league position - you’re taking “good position” out of context and narrowing it to be league position.

My basis of looking at Manning is where we were when he took over, which was 11th, equal wins and losses, 4 points off playoffs and how we were playing, squad make-up, etc.  I was keen to avoid it being Nige v Manning.  I haven’t spent 25 games evaluating Manning and Manningball just on league position, but a whole host of things from playing style to squad rotation, etc.  Plenty of numerical analysis too.

Imho he’s taken us backwards, from the “position” (not just league) he took over.  I don’t think I’m rewriting anything at all.

You appear to be one game / loss away from concluding the same / similar?

Ironically, our hierarchy thought we were in a good position too, apart from league position!  Although they struggled to define what that really meant!

[SydneyCity]

4 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

@italian dave you're certainly not wrong.

Just been on the school run with an exiled Ipswich fan and the first thing he said after taking the piss was if McKenna goes in the summer they will have Manning.

He said we were one of the most organised teams to play at PR this season and were the better team for 70 minutes. 

It may seem odd to us, but hey Ipswich have an actual board and what appears to be a competent footballing structure (and yes I'm afraid I include MA in that). So why wouldn't they think a coach like Manning could succeed there, just like McKenna has?

The board and broader footballing structure at Ipswich also contains a not insignificant amount of ex-BCFC staff. 

It really is mind-blowing how regularly we’ve underperformed over the years.

[fairweather]

17 hours ago, Graham76 said:

I was also told the same thing when i bumped into Pep Guardiola at Lidl

You can’t be unhappy with his innovation though. The centre isle is one of Pep’s unsung legacies and notwithstanding a complicated battery system, I am happy with my new power tools, clothes dryer and juicer

[S_C]

42 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

My position / opinion is much wider than league position - you’re taking “good position” out of context and narrowing it to be league position.

My basis of looking at Manning is where we were when he took over, which was 11th, equal wins and losses, 4 points off playoffs and how we were playing, squad make-up, etc.  I was keen to avoid it being Nige v Manning.  I haven’t spent 25 games evaluating Manning and Manningball just on league position, but a whole host of things from playing style to squad rotation, etc.  Plenty of numerical analysis too.

Imho he’s taken us backwards, from the “position” (not just league) he took over.  I don’t think I’m rewriting anything at all.

You appear to be one game / loss away from concluding the same / similar?

Ironically, our hierarchy thought we were in a good position too, apart from league position!  Although they struggled to define what that really meant!

Perhaps I misinterpreted. I don't disagree that the club was in a better position on the whole when Pearson was here.

I think we're in the boat now to be honest. The change id like is higher than Manning. I suspect id actually be quite bitter if he were to be sacked, results were to improve, the season ticket drive commenced, we went marquee in the summer and all was forgotten come August. Sacking Manning is papering over the cracks and, whilst I appreciate saying hierarchy arent up to it doesnt mean Manning is, if the question is do I want to finish 13th next season after BT/JL hide behind Manning's failure or consider that relegation may move us toward correcting the foundations, for better or worse, I think we're in stick territory.

My personal opinion aside (I also believe that, unless he's lost the dressing room, we won't be relegated), a damaging result against Swansea in the face of an already sour mood feels a loss too many, and I think it's likely they go into self-preservation mode.

[Silvio Dante]

Well, waking up this morning this has become a bizarre old thread with a lot of conflation. There are a few bottom lines though:

- In all the arguments, nobody has still given a compelling reason to keep Manning. And for avoidance of doubt “We’re not getting Klopp”, “Ipswich fans like him” and “We need wider structural change” are not compelling reasons! People need to look at how he has done here, bearing in mind his starting point (and yes, if you really want to push it what other coaches got out of the same group, evidencing he is underperforming)

- Nobody has disagreed that I can see that he has been sub par on game management. Hes managed over 100 games. This isn’t “he’ll learn it” - this is “he’s not good at it”

- When people (including me) say he’s not a good fit, it’s actually being a bit charitable. He’s shown nothing here that he can manage other than the initial setup of a team. My “not a good fit” is based on him having a preferred style and the players likely to fit that without any major need for coaching/adapting. Again, he’s not got bad players but he hasn’t been able to manage them effectively. I say he’s not a good fit, but realistically his management CV should soon read two sackings in two years, a top six league one budget leading in failure, a decent dozen games at Oxford (which if you listen to their fans was a false position) and doing well with Russell Martins side. So, there is enough question to say that he may be more than a bad fit - he may just not be a good manager.

- Which brings us back to the most important bottom line. Liam has been here half a season. He’s regressed us. It’s getting worse. The evidence from prior career he can turn things is sketchy at best. Even a summer buying his players isn’t a guarantee. So, even if you think the board etc need an overhaul, where exactly is the compelling reason to continue with him?

And nobody has answered that.

[W-S-M Seagull]

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

but has a previous manager appointment regressed us as quickly from such a good position?

I said at the time of Mannings appointment that in my living memory I do not recall a manager inheriting such a decent squad. 

He inherited a squad that was more than capable of getting top 10. He was expected to make this squad out perform its ability. 

We had the players in place.

We had a good hard working culture in place. 

It's not like he had to come in and fix lots of problems like is usual when a managerial change is made. 

He just had to improve on what we had here already. Just a few minor tweaks. Like Edwards at Luton. 

He's not even kept us bumbling along. We are now 13 points off the play offs with 10 games to go. We finished last season 10 points off. 

There can be no other conclusion other than in that context he has failed massively here. 

No one can sit here and put forward a convincing arguement of any material improvements under him, after almost half a season.

Get rid of Pearson, fine. But this has been a massive lost opportunity not only for us but also for Manning. 

There is no doubt in my mind that either under Pearson or another manager we could have done better than we have done. 

 

[ENOUGH]

21 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I said at the time of Mannings appointment that in my living memory I do not recall a manager inheriting such a decent squad. 

He inherited a squad that was more than capable of getting top 10. He was expected to make this squad out perform its ability. 

We had the players in place.

We had a good hard working culture in place. 

It's not like he had to come in and fix lots of problems like is usual when a managerial change is made. 

He just had to improve on what we had here already. Just a few minor tweaks. Like Edwards at Luton. 

He's not even kept us bumbling along. We are now 13 points off the play offs with 10 games to go. We finished last season 10 points off. 

There can be no other conclusion other than in that context he has failed massively here. 

No one can sit here and put forward a convincing arguement of any material improvements under him, after almost half a season.

Get rid of Pearson, fine. But this has been a massive lost opportunity not only for us but also for Manning. 

There is no doubt in my mind that either under Pearson or another manager we could have done better than we have done. 

 

4 losses in a row now (losing streak record in danger) and only 2 league wins this year, Ipswich have won there last four and more, Sheff Weds have also won there last 4 games dragging us and others towards them...leaving our top 6 challenge a bit late arent we?

Edited March 7 by mason