Ipswich view

[italian dave]

5 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

I doubt Dave invented that, so I imagine it's based on their opinion of his general demeanour and how he presents himself, rather than on the success of Ipswich this term.

 

4 hours ago, Mr Hankey said:

Didn't say he invented as such, just don't believe they could be proper "fans" of Ipswich if they have a low opinion of Ashton after all the shite they have endured both on the pitch & off of it (managers/board ect) over the past 23 years or so since their last relegation from the Prem, maybe more Dave's opinion of Ashton came through more from his side than theirs - "That Ashton is a right ****, proper t w a t aint he" - "Haha, yeh ok mate" for example.

He's their Golden Goose......sure it could go tits up, but it looks like Ashton has found the perfect home, particularly as he had such a big role in the takeover to begin with, so i can imagine he is fully invested. I think he will carry on succeeding at Ipswich, despite how much it might piss off City fans.

Interestingly it was because they know people who work with him. And it was about him, not about what's been achieved at Ipswich while he's been there. Their view was that 'for Mark Ashton it's all about Mark Ashton' - and I'm not sure there's many of us would disagree with that view?

And Mr H - no, that wasn't the case: it was exactly as I said. We expressed no opinion. We said 'what's your view on Mark Ashton?' and the immediate reply was 't w a t'. Simple as that. 

[italian dave]

24 minutes ago, Superjack said:

Boom!

If this doesn't win the day, I don't know what does.

Johnson should never have been appointed. 

And yet...

And yet....he took us to the most consistently successful league position we've been in for 40 years.

[italian dave]

9 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

To add some more context so it avoids looking like the intended purpose, Ipswich haven't been great at home of late. 

Just about beat Rotherham 4-3

It was 1-1 with Brum up til the 80th min

Got a late equaliser v West Brom

Lost to Maidstone

Beat Sunderland having been 1 nil down

Drew against QPR

Having looked at Ipswichs home record this season it certainly seems like it's been entertaining! Obviously I didn't go to any of those games and the only one I watched was the Maidstone game but considering their home record I call BS on claims we were the most well organised side there this season. 

We were organised until we wasn't. I personally don't get too excited about the fact we went to a newly promoted side away and shut up shop. It's a sad day when people are happy with that. 

Whilst you're trying to frame this as 'Ipswich fans think Manning is a tactical genius' did we really set up any differently to games such as Leicester and Leeds away? We simply played a system that this squad has played before LM was here so maybe its infact Mr Pearson that Ipswich fans would like? 

Just saying. 

Funnily enough, they mentioned some of those games. when we talked about how we'd struggled against sides like QPR and Cardiff. Even the top teams do. Funny old division, eh?!

As for the rest...don't shoot the messenger. Just saying what I heard - and I thought it might bring a bit of relief to the relentless negativity!

[Superjack]

2 minutes ago, italian dave said:

And yet....he took us to the most consistently successful league position we've been in for 40 years.

That is indeed a fact. 

But he didn't start much lower.

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 minutes ago, italian dave said:

And yet....he took us to the most consistently successful league position we've been in for 40 years.

He wasn't all bad but his subsequent career trajectory plus what he had to work with suggests to me that an alternative manager could have got more out of high the resource and indeed a number of the individual players who were added.

The budget for us under him from maybe 2018, 2019 time yeah we were going for it, but insane, not entirely his fault but he played a role in the mess we ended up in.

Edited March 6 by Mr Popodopolous

[italian dave]

11 minutes ago, Superjack said:

That is indeed a fact. 

But he didn't start much lower.

I think it was earlier today (long trip back from Ipswich!) that I characterised his tenure as taking us from a yo-yo L1/Champ club to an established mid table (maybe even top half) Champ club. I'm not talking about picking specific individual points in time (we can all prove anything that way!) just generally how the club is perceived. I think that's fair??

And I know you can argue about the resources he had, the opportunities he missed and so on - but at the end of the day he did that - and I feel that was significant and deserves acknowledgment.

 

[Superjack]

3 minutes ago, italian dave said:

I think it was earlier today (long trip back from Ipswich!) that I characterised his tenure as taking us from a yo-yo L1/Champ club to an established mid table (maybe even top half) Champ club. I'm not talking about picking specific individual points in time (we can all prove anything that way!) just generally how the club is perceived. I think that's fair??

And I know you can argue about the resources he had, the opportunities he missed and so on - but at the end of the day he did that - and I feel that was significant and deserves acknowledgment.

 

And I have acknowledged that. 

I still don't think that he should ever have been appointed. 

But in his time here he flirted with relegation and the play offs. 

Didn't achieve either. 

Meh. 

(and I didn't mention the ridiculous war chest).

[italian dave]

6 minutes ago, Superjack said:

And I have acknowledged that. 

I still don't think that he should ever have been appointed. 

But in his time here he flirted with relegation and the play offs. 

Didn't achieve either. 

Meh. 

(and I didn't mention the ridiculous war chest).

That’s fair enough: your view. I don’t have a particular view on the appointment: don’t really know what the objectives, alternatives etc were.

I think it’s also fair to say though that his flirtations with both were linear and evidence of the progress under him. He flirted with relegation early on, but latter end of his tenure was very much ‘top end’ (to coin a phrase )

No, he didn’t achieve it, and that’s what cost him his job - I’m pretty sure top 6 was the ultimatum that season.

(Well, you did mention it, but I think you got away with it ). 

[Superjack]

1 minute ago, italian dave said:

That’s fair enough: your view. I don’t have a particular view on the appointment: don’t really know what the objectives, alternatives etc were.

I think it’s also fair to say though that his flirtations with both were linear and evidence of the progress under him. He flirted with relegation early on, but latter end of his tenure was very much ‘top end’ (to coin a phrase )

No, he didn’t achieve it, and that’s what cost him his job - I’m pretty sure top 6 was the ultimatum that season.

(Well, you did mention it, but I think you got away with it ). 

People jokingly saying that he might return. 

It would be appalling. And so Lansdowns.

But actually... would it be worse than now?

That's as close as you will get to me ever liking the bloke.

[1960maaan]

57 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

He wasn't all bad but his subsequent career trajectory plus what he had to work with suggests to me that an alternative manager could have got more out of high the resource and indeed a number of the individual players who were added.

The budget for us under him from maybe 2018, 2019 time yeah we were going for it, but insane, not entirely his fault but he played a role in the mess we ended up in.

Going for it, in a way that many didn't realise we were "going for it" !

Instead of buying every player recommended on Football Manager 2017 , imagine we spent the same money on just a few Players.
Just a few quality additions , 12 players at about £5m each over 3 years ? I wonder.

Edited March 6 by 1960maaan

[Kid in the Riot]

@italian dave you're certainly not wrong.

Just been on the school run with an exiled Ipswich fan and the first thing he said after taking the piss was if McKenna goes in the summer they will have Manning.

He said we were one of the most organised teams to play at PR this season and were the better team for 70 minutes. 

It may seem odd to us, but hey Ipswich have an actual board and what appears to be a competent footballing structure (and yes I'm afraid I include MA in that). So why wouldn't they think a coach like Manning could succeed there, just like McKenna has?

[Superjack]

1 minute ago, Kid in the Riot said:

@italian dave you're certainly not wrong.

Just been on the school run with an exiled Ipswich fan and the first thing he said after taking the piss was if McKenna goes in the summer they will have Manning.

He said we were one of the most organised teams to play at PR this season and were the better team for 70 minutes. 

It may seem odd to us, but hey Ipswich have an actual board and what appears to be a competent footballing structure (and yes I'm afraid I include MA in that). So why wouldn't they think a coach like Manning could succeed there, just like McKenna has?

Please God, don't let them go up. And let someone poach McKenna

I wouldn't give a **** if Manning succeeded there.

As long as he isn't here.

[REDOXO]

19 hours ago, italian dave said:

Talking to a couple of Ipswich fans in the hotel bar this evening.

Just some context, in terms of their judgement: we asked what they thought of Mark Ashton: “t w a t”.

Then, can we have Wes Burns back. “Only if we can have Liam Manning back when McKenna gets poached”

Really? Yes: “you’ve got a top coach, one of the best……give him til this time next season and you’ll be glad you did…….best organised side here this season”

Just saying. 

It’s good they hold him in so much esteem. A good number two I’ll be bound. 

[Kid in the Riot]

4 minutes ago, Superjack said:

Please God, don't let them go up. And let someone poach McKenna

I wouldn't give a **** if Manning succeeded there.

As long as he isn't here.

Then sadly you continue to miss the point & reason as to why we will continue to underachieve. 

[Silvio Dante]

Just now, Superjack said:

Please God, don't let them go up. And let someone poach McKenna

I wouldn't give a **** if Manning succeeded there.

As long as he isn't here.

And again, I’m not sure why Ipswich fans “liking Manning” when they haven’t been party to his car crash here is being given such weight when there appears to be “local boy bias”.

Let him go there. He hasn’t failed here because of an incompetent footballing structure (although one exists) - he’s failed here because he’s been godawful at game management and tried to dogmatically impose a style on a side not suited to it with diminishing results. 

The failure on those parameters is Liams and Liams alone. Any framing of he’s failed because of the footballing structure is nonsense - he was the wrong man, but for the 1000th time due diligence works both ways!

[Superjack]

2 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

It’s good they hold him in so much esteem. A good number two I’ll be bound. 

Better than the number two he has brought. 

Just **** off the pair of them.

And Tinnion. 

And the Lansdowns. 

Just **** off everyone but the players and supporters, basically.

[Superjack]

2 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Then sadly you continue to miss the point & reason as to why we will continue to underachieve. 

Oh no, I don't. 

If you study my posting history, you will see that.

They all need to go. But only one could (unlikely) go now. 

It's just a start.

[italian dave]

48 minutes ago, Superjack said:

People jokingly saying that he might return. 

It would be appalling. And so Lansdowns.

But actually... would it be worse than now?

That's as close as you will get to me ever liking the bloke.

What’s the phrase…..damned with faint praise

[italian dave]

11 minutes ago, Superjack said:

Better than the number two he has brought. 

Just **** off the pair of them.

And Tinnion. 

And the Lansdowns. 

Just **** off everyone but the players and supporters, basically.

And then what?

No owners. No DoF. No coaches. Just some players and supporters.

Sounds like a recipe for great success to me

[Kid in the Riot]

15 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

And again, I’m not sure why Ipswich fans “liking Manning” when they haven’t been party to his car crash here is being given such weight when there appears to be “local boy bias”.

Let him go there. He hasn’t failed here because of an incompetent footballing structure (although one exists) - he’s failed here because he’s been godawful at game management and tried to dogmatically impose a style on a side not suited to it with diminishing results. 

The failure on those parameters is Liams and Liams alone. Any framing of he’s failed because of the footballing structure is nonsense - he was the wrong man, but for the 1000th time due diligence works both ways!

In your opinion. And then what? You've got rid of Manning, what's your plan?

A fool's errand I'm afraid. 

[Superjack]

5 minutes ago, italian dave said:

And then what?

No owners. No DoF. No coaches. Just some players and supporters.

Sounds like a recipe for great success to me

Yeah... because new owners wouldn't replace them, would they?

Talk about arguing for arguing's sake.

[Numero Uno]

35 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

@italian dave you're certainly not wrong.

Just been on the school run with an exiled Ipswich fan and the first thing he said after taking the piss was if McKenna goes in the summer they will have Manning.

He said we were one of the most organised teams to play at PR this season and were the better team for 70 minutes. 

It may seem odd to us, but hey Ipswich have an actual board and what appears to be a competent footballing structure (and yes I'm afraid I include MA in that). So why wouldn't they think a coach like Manning could succeed there, just like McKenna has?

I totally get what you and @italian dave are saying and agree that ANY manager has a job on in the current set-up let alone an inexperienced one. It totally holds us back but that only changes when the ownership changes......which ain't gonna happen soon by the sound of it.

My issue with Liam Manning is that he's been very easy to tactically outgun so in my view we have the double whammy of an awful hierarchy and set-up coupled with a very wet behind the ears manager at the level. If that continues next season there is literally one outcome and one outcome only.  

Edited March 6 by Numero Uno

[Open End Numb Legs]

As I think I said in the match thread I wasn't that impressed with Ipswich. We matched them for most of the game, we both had deflected goals, the difference was they took one more chance than we did. I would have loved to have seen how it would have panned out if Wells had finished his chance.

Anyway, not sure they have what it takes to get auto prom. Leeds have looked a much better team to me. Let's face it, those of us with Sky have had plenty of chance to see Leeds play this season!

Edited March 6 by Open End Numb Legs

[MelksRed]

11 hours ago, italian dave said:

Lee Johnson’s four year tenure saw a significant shift, from the club being a yo-yo Championship relegation/L1 promotion club to being an established mid table (even, dare I say it, top half!) Championship club.

If we can get a similar degree of shift out of a four year Liam Manning tenure (to yo-yo PL/Championship) then I for one will be happy. 

And the consequences of this were rectified by NP by reducing the inflated wage bill and cutting the drift wood free.... barely put of the woods

[Superjack]

2 minutes ago, MelksRed said:

And the consequences of this were rectified by NP by reducing the inflated wage bill and cutting the drift wood free.... barely put of the woods

He's an idiot. 

Don't bite.

[Silvio Dante]

14 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

In your opinion. And then what? You've got rid of Manning, what's your plan?

A fool's errand I'm afraid. 

Kid - nobody is denying that the board and the entire footballing structure needs replacing. And I know you’ve been an advocate of Manning. But it is apparent that the fools errand based on the performance here is retaining him - and worse, letting him loose on the purse strings in the summer.

If you want to start the petition to get the Lansdowns to go I’ll gladly sign it. I’ll do the same for Tinnion. The whole football operation needs an overhaul but that shouldn’t be a reason not to determine if the head coach is appropriate. 

He’s a bad fit. I’m not sure that you’ve got anything here other than “well he might do better at Ipswich” - he’s not doing well here, and it’s only getting worse.

To flip the question, why is it not a fools errand to retain him, based on what he’s done so far at this football club? 

[Kid in the Riot]

33 minutes ago, Superjack said:

Oh no, I don't. 

If you study my posting history, you will see that.

They all need to go. But only one could (unlikely) go now. 

It's just a start.

It's rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic until there's a change in the hierarchy. 

[italian dave]

24 minutes ago, Superjack said:

Yeah... because new owners wouldn't replace them, would they?

Talk about arguing for arguing's sake.

But who? Which owners? When? What would they do different? And the same for the DoF. And for the coaches..

It’s not arguing for the sake of it. It’s the fundamental problem I have with all this “sack everyone” stuff. It’s not a solution, it’s not an end in itself. You have to say what follows and how that makes it better. And then how you are so sure of that.

If it was a simple as just ‘sack everyone’ don’t you think everyone would be doing it? And it’s hardly worked for Watford! 

[italian dave]

14 minutes ago, Superjack said:

He's an idiot. 

Don't bite.

And the other problem I have is with reverting to name calling.

End of debate. 

[italian dave]

25 minutes ago, MelksRed said:

And the consequences of this were rectified by NP by reducing the inflated wage bill and cutting the drift wood free.... barely put of the woods

Yes, absolutely. I agree.

Covid didn’t help either, mind.

This isn’t some sort of LJ v NP thing - not in my mind anyway.

They had entirely different objectives.

LJ’s was league position.  Consolidation, then improvement, then in his last season, top 6. Others made the decision about how much money he got, not him. And we went shit for bust that last season (like plenty others did). Again, financially, not his decision. And for much of his tenure he succeeded: failed at the end with that last one. But that doesn’t negate the overall achievements over his tenure.

NP’s was entirely different. And yes, as you say, driven by financial imperatives, cutting costs, saving us from FFP consequences. Whilst treading water. And he did a great job. We put the books in order without ever really flirting with relegation - although a season when others had big points deductions helped!  His problem at the end of the day seems to have been maintaining relationships.

But the point is that they both had different jobs to do and both did decent enough jobs on the whole.