Ipswich view

[Dr Balls]

5 minutes ago, italian dave said:

But that’s a view based on four games. You wouldn’t have been saying that four games ago. This is talking next season/four years!

Clearly there’s a scenario where we simply lose the next four then the next four but a) I don’t think that will happen and b) I’m not convinced that yet another change at the top in the midst of that would really help.

I would agree that another change in coach/manager could be disruptive, but that could also be in a positive way, if you brought in someone experienced to play to our strengths rather than exaggerating our weaknesses as a team which is what is happening under Manning.

The chances of relegation are slim but not non-existent and the longer the current situation persists the bigger the risk. Plus there is still a real tension between Manning wanting “his  players” and what we can afford or Tinnion offers him. Remember his sacking at MK Dons followed a summer of player change and it didn’t go well. Oxford it went better but has tailed off since he left. So it’s no guarantee he would achieve more than he currently is next season.

[W-S-M Seagull]

3 hours ago, italian dave said:

Talking to a couple of Ipswich fans in the hotel bar this evening.

Just some context, in terms of their judgement: we asked what they thought of Mark Ashton: “t w a t”.

Then, can we have Wes Burns back. “Only if we can have Liam Manning back when McKenna gets poached”

Really? Yes: “you’ve got a top coach, one of the best……give him til this time next season and you’ll be glad you did…….best organised side here this season”

Just saying. 

To add some more context so it avoids looking like the intended purpose, Ipswich haven't been great at home of late. 

Just about beat Rotherham 4-3

It was 1-1 with Brum up til the 80th min

Got a late equaliser v West Brom

Lost to Maidstone

Beat Sunderland having been 1 nil down

Drew against QPR

Having looked at Ipswichs home record this season it certainly seems like it's been entertaining! Obviously I didn't go to any of those games and the only one I watched was the Maidstone game but considering their home record I call BS on claims we were the most well organised side there this season. 

We were organised until we wasn't. I personally don't get too excited about the fact we went to a newly promoted side away and shut up shop. It's a sad day when people are happy with that. 

Whilst you're trying to frame this as 'Ipswich fans think Manning is a tactical genius' did we really set up any differently to games such as Leicester and Leeds away? We simply played a system that this squad has played before LM was here so maybe its infact Mr Pearson that Ipswich fans would like? 

Just saying. 

[bexhill reds]

8 minutes ago, italian dave said:

But that’s a view based on four games. You wouldn’t have been saying that four games ago. This is talking next season/four years!

Clearly there’s a scenario where we simply lose the next four then the next four but a) I don’t think that will happen and b) I’m not convinced that yet another change at the top in the midst of that would really help.

it’s not a view on the last 4 games, look at the trend and the form table for the last 10 games, it’s only Rotherham that has are worse than us. The only reason why our league position is not worse is partly due to the starting point that Manning had and the fact the Sheff We’d and QPR had dreadful starts. The Cup games, Boro and Southampton merely act as the icing to disguise the shit cake. 
 

The problem is now that the damage is done.

 

[W-S-M Seagull]

2 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

- Last night wasn’t the first time a Manning team has played well against Ipswich - the same happened at Dons. He seems to know how to set up against McKenna (no huge shocks as theyre mates and I’d imagine talk regularly), and when Ipswich are used to dominating teams, a coach who comes and nullifies them will stand out

 

My mate has been steadfast in his support of Manning - he keeps telling me he’ll “turn it around” and “sort us out”. There is also a lot of stock on the “turnaround” at Oxford which appears built on sand. 

Which makes it the even more bizarre that he didn't have us prepared for his changes. 

I as a football fan knew Ipswich would make changes and then go for it and that they often score late goals, especially at home. But we seemed to be caught completely guard by it. 

At Oxford they invested a significant amount of money. Top 6 budget maybe? That often gets ignored. 

[bearded_red]

Best organised team at Portman Road this season, you’ll never sing that!

 

[Sheltons Army]

41 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Lee Johnson’s four year tenure saw a significant shift, from the club being a yo-yo Championship relegation/L1 promotion club to being an established mid table (even, dare I say it, top half!) Championship club.

If we can get a similar degree of shift out of a four year Liam Manning tenure (to yo-yo PL/Championship) then I for one will be happy. 

Leaving us with a completely dysfunctional squad and significant FFP concerns for the forthcoming years

 

Another HC you backed heavily and continually , even against the overwhelming majority towards the end . as you are laying out battlements for LM

Yet you were anything but supportive of NP 

With the miles you do you absolutely have the right , more than most of us , to have your views  - but I do find it , from clearly a passionate supporter of the Club , very strange 

Edited March 6 by Sheltons Army

[Fuber]

7 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Interesting with Manning tbh. Coventry fans I saw on my feed on Twitter a week or 2 ago seemed to intimate that we had made a shrewd move replacing NP with Manning.

Bizarre take for sure?? Maybe I'll go back and ask, seems a strange take to say the least and looks stranger by the week. I completely disagree with their analysis of course.

Think many fans outside of clubs he's managed have this idea that he's some kind of dinosaur - Second Tier being an epitomy of it.

When in truth he's just a basic, but good, man manager. Playing to the strength of his available squad.

[Mr Hankey]

Be very surprised if many/any Ipswich fans would think Mark Ashton is a "t w a t" - they are on the brink of promotion to the Prem after coming straight up from league 1 with Ashton at the helm. Very odd take for an Ipswich "fan" to have.

It's understandable from us to think that way, but he's done nothing wrong at Ipswich for them to have that view.

[IAmNick]

29 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

To add some more context so it avoids looking like the intended purpose, Ipswich haven't been great at home of late. 

Just about beat Rotherham 4-3

It was 1-1 with Brum up til the 80th min

Got a late equaliser v West Brom

Lost to Maidstone

Beat Sunderland having been 1 nil down

Drew against QPR

Having looked at Ipswichs home record this season it certainly seems like it's been entertaining! Obviously I didn't go to any of those games and the only one I watched was the Maidstone game but considering their home record I call BS on claims we were the most well organised side there this season. 

We were organised until we wasn't. I personally don't get too excited about the fact we went to a newly promoted side away and shut up shop. It's a sad day when people are happy with that. 

Whilst you're trying to frame this as 'Ipswich fans think Manning is a tactical genius' did we really set up any differently to games such as Leicester and Leeds away? We simply played a system that this squad has played before LM was here so maybe its infact Mr Pearson that Ipswich fans would like? 

Just saying. 

Just the 4 wins and 2 draws at home in the last 6 then for them.

Not great - I'd take a bit of being not great in that case then!

[LondonBristolian]

2 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

To be fair, they’re not.

The consistent opinion from my Ipswich supporting mate has been that Manning is the real deal. It’s based on two main factors 

- Last night wasn’t the first time a Manning team has played well against Ipswich - the same happened at Dons. He seems to know how to set up against McKenna (no huge shocks as theyre mates and I’d imagine talk regularly), and when Ipswich are used to dominating teams, a coach who comes and nullifies them will stand out

- On a broader basis they’re basing it on the prior coaching connections at Ipswich. He came through there as a young coach and had a decent reputation. Totally different game coaching academy footballers to managing a game though 

My mate has been steadfast in his support of Manning - he keeps telling me he’ll “turn it around” and “sort us out”. There is also a lot of stock on the “turnaround” at Oxford which appears built on sand. My view is that there isn’t - or wasn’t until Manning started coaching us - anything to turn round or sort out, and we’ve seen more of a consistent shitshow than they have in the academy/odd games to form a valid view.

So, not one game but a flawed view on a greater sample. Kind of like when we thought signing Carl Hutchings would be a good idea!

This bit in bold is the key bit for me. We spent three years under Pearson rebuilding and, at the start of the season, it felt like we'd finally had a hardworking squad who'd learned how to give consistent levels of performance each week and - whilst we were lacking an injection of quality in one or two areas - we had a nucleus of a good team. We've then got rid of Pearson to bring in a manager more equipped to get the best out of the squad and suddenly have an apparent situation where the squad is not good enough and a substantial rebuild is needed.

For me, the two absolutely essential criteria I want in any manager at this point is

a) Someone who can get the best out of the existing players

b) Someone who'll continue giving young players a pathway to the first team.

I can understand why the club thought Manning could be the right person to do those things but it isn't happening in practice and, if Manning isn't the right person for the job we need, someone else should be doing that job. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

18 minutes ago, Fuber said:

Think many fans outside of clubs he's managed have this idea that he's some kind of dinosaur - Second Tier being an epitomy of it.

When in truth he's just a basic, but good, man manager. Playing to the strength of his available squad.

That nails it I think. Big gap between perception and reality. He has the image of a dinosaur which is nonsense.

We saw 3 or 4 tactical phases, iterations in his time here. We were continuing to develop until the failure to replace Scott.

Second Tier are perhaps somewhat biased as there is at least one Derby fan in there, Dilks iirc and they (Derby fans) really don't rate him. His short stint there probably the reason why.

[Fuber]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

That nails it I think. Big gap between perception and reality. He has the image of a dinosaur which is nonsense.

We saw 3 or 4 tactical phases, iterations in his time here. We were continuing to develop until the failure to replace Scott.

Second Tier are perhaps somewhat biased as there is at least one Derby fan in there, Dilks iirc and they (Derby fans) really don't rate him. His short stint there probably the reason why.

Which never made sense to me when you have Mental Mel flying drones over training sessions, but sure the manager is to blame.

[Engvall’s Splinter]

1 hour ago, italian dave said:

But that’s a view based on four games. You wouldn’t have been saying that four games ago. This is talking next season/four years!

Clearly there’s a scenario where we simply lose the next four then the next four but a) I don’t think that will happen and b) I’m not convinced that yet another change at the top in the midst of that would really help.

It’s not based on the last 4 games though. It’s based upon Mannings whole tenure. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

29 minutes ago, Fuber said:

Which never made sense to me when you have Mental Mel flying drones over training sessions, but sure the manager is to blame.

Had a quick 2 minute search and found a 6 page thread on their forum debating his tenure there, from when they were in administration enroute to League One.

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/39599-inside-story-on-nigel-pearsons-sacking/

That was quoting the Bristol World article from 2 years ago.

[phantom]

9 hours ago, italian dave said:

Talking to a couple of Ipswich fans in the hotel bar this evening.

I am going to assume the key word may have some influence in this cracking banter

[SydneyCity]

4 hours ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

What example of great coaching have you seen in a side that has regressed? Cannot defend anymore and create very little. 

There are too many different football people - independent of each other - who talk about him being a highly respected coach. Fellow coaches, people and fans at the various clubs he’s been at, The City Group, commentators. There needs to be some truth to it. But…

Coaching is very different to management. Putting on good sessions is only a tiny part of it. He is, in my opinion, woefully out of his depth leading a Championship team - especially one where he has to navigate JL annd Tins.

I want him out asap. The football is boring, predictable and ultimately unproductive.

That said, he can be a terrible leader of BCFC, and a great coach at the same time. They’re two very different jobs.

[W-S-M Seagull]

3 minutes ago, SydneyCity said:

There are too many different football people - independent of each other - who talk about him being a highly respected coach. Fellow coaches, people and fans at the various clubs he’s been at, The City Group, commentators. There needs to be some truth to it. But…

Coaching is very different to management. Putting on good sessions is only a tiny part of it. He is, in my opinion, woefully out of his depth leading a Championship team - especially one where he has to navigate JL annd Tins.

I want him out asap. The football is boring, predictable and ultimately unproductive.

That said, he can be a terrible leader of BCFC, and a great coach at the same time. They’re two very different jobs.

I have no doubt that Manning is a good coach. 

Where he's gone wrong in his career is that he didn't become an assistant with an experienced guy. I think that's why he's failed to learn the in game management side of things. 

But I don't think his ego would ever have enabled him to do that. 

 

Edited March 6 by W-S-M Seagull

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Dr Balls said:

Don’t disagree @italian dave The problem we have is that we have gone from a “mid table team looking up at the playoffs and hoping” to a “mid table team in a relatively long run of terrible form looking over our shoulder at the relegation zone and worrying as we slip closer towards it”.

The current league position gives a very false sense of security and given the games we have coming up the grounds for any optimism are rapidly disappearing if not already gone. Everything will look OK to the owner until he suddenly realises too late that it’s not!

 

Upcoming fixtures / 6 pointers!

Tonight:

Watford / Swansea

This weekend:

Blackburn / Plymouth - Millwall / Birmingham - QPR / Middlesbrough - Bristol C / Swansea

There is a chance the table looks different by Sunday night.

Next Tues:

Birmingham / Middlesbrough (both their game in hand)

Next Weekend:

Birmingham / Watford - Middlesbrough / Blackburn - Rotherham / Huddersfield

1 hour ago, LondonBristolian said:

This bit in bold is the key bit for me. We spent three years under Pearson rebuilding and, at the start of the season, it felt like we'd finally had a hardworking squad who'd learned how to give consistent levels of performance each week and - whilst we were lacking an injection of quality in one or two areas - we had a nucleus of a good team. We've then got rid of Pearson to bring in a manager more equipped to get the best out of the squad and suddenly have an apparent situation where the squad is not good enough and a substantial rebuild is needed.

For me, the two absolutely essential criteria I want in any manager at this point is

a) Someone who can get the best out of the existing players

b) Someone who'll continue giving young players a pathway to the first team.

I can understand why the club thought Manning could be the right person to do those things but it isn't happening in practice and, if Manning isn't the right person for the job we need, someone else should be doing that job. 

And assuming at some point they were to sack him, then the football-man who said he was right appointment has to have serious questions asked of him.  I’ve stayed out of the Tinnion “snake” stuff, I find it a bit childish, but I will happily critique his performance as the bloke who is running the football side of the football club (not Tom Rawcliffe who is running the operational side of the football club).

And based on my observations of LM, BT picked the wrong bloke.  He met one requirement - the personal attributes, he didn’t meet the other requirement - the football playing style attributes.

I hoped he would be a one-trick pony style wise, but he is.

(all imho - totally get people disagreeing)

1 hour ago, Engvall’s Splinter said:

It’s not based on the last 4 games though. It’s based upon Mannings whole tenure. 

My conclusion on Manning’s first 24 games in charge (now 25) is to bite the bullet now and sack him.  It’s not a 4 game opinion.  I hate reaching that conclusion too.  It’s horrible, I’d hoped we would be bemoaning him being poached having been successful / having done well here.

[ralphindevon]

I wonder what the Ipswich fans thought of Manning’s MK Dons team that lost 3-0 at Portman rd a few months before he was sacked? 

[lenred]

1 hour ago, phantom said:

I am going to assume the key word may have some influence in this cracking banter

Can the title be changed to ‘couple of slightly inebriated Ipswich fans who have taken pity on ardent supporter who has travelled a long way to support his team’s view’. 

[frenchred]

10 hours ago, italian dave said:

Talking to a couple of Ipswich fans in the hotel bar this evening.

Just some context, in terms of their judgement: we asked what they thought of Mark Ashton: “t w a t”.

Then, can we have Wes Burns back. “Only if we can have Liam Manning back when McKenna gets poached”

Really? Yes: “you’ve got a top coach, one of the best……give him til this time next season and you’ll be glad you did…….best organised side here this season”

Just saying. 

Unbelievable, we also spoke to various Ipswich fans in hotel and to a man they love Ashton, think he's a bit of a genius with the recruitment they've done,!

[phantom]

17 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Where he's gone wrong in his career is that he didn't become an assistant with an experienced guy. I think that's why he's failed to learn the in game management side of things. 

But I don't think his ego would ever have enabled him to do that. 

 

Some interesting thoughts there, out of interest what are you basing him going "wrong" in his career on?

How do you have any idea about his ego?

[LondonBristolian]

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

My conclusion on Manning’s first 24 games in charge (now 25) is to bite the bullet now and sack him.  It’s not a 4 game opinion.  I hate reaching that conclusion too.  It’s horrible, I’d hoped we would be bemoaning him being poached having been successful / having done well here.

I agree. And I get the impression from your posts over the years is that, like me, you don't say that lightly. I absolutely hate for anyone to lose their job. I'm very aware managers are ultimately human beings with families and bills and I want to give any manager every chance to prove they can do the job.

But I just feel that it's not working in terms of results or performances and too much at the club is going in the wrong direction. The team ethic and togetherness seems to be frayed, the players don't seem clear on what's expected of them, too many players have regressed whilst too few have improved and the pathway from the youth to the first team appears to becoming increasingly overgrown with brambles and weeds. I don't see Manning succeeding in doing what he wants to do and I actually don't think, if he did implement what he is trying to do, that it would be the right direction for the club. It's a shame and I feel for him but it is very clear to me he was the wrong appointment and - aside from everything else - he isn't meeting the brief set out by JL and BT at the time of recruitment.

I just don't see any good that would arise from keeping him in the job for a game longer. I simply do not think it is going to work out and I hope the club can "take the emotions out of their decision-making" and do what needs to be done. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

20 minutes ago, frenchred said:

Unbelievable, we also spoke to various Ipswich fans in hotel and to a man they love Ashton, think he's a bit of a genius with the recruitment they've done,!

Ashton is a t w a t without doubt but Ipswich seem to have hit upon some golden thread, perfect storm, stars aligning. Sort of thing that won't be IMO repeated certainly not to the same level if they stay down.

[CiderJar]

5 hours ago, Son of Fred said:

They are basing opinion of Manning on what they watched last night-

One match.

... but, in fairness, in comparison to every other team they have watched once or maybe twice.

[Red-Robbo]

3 hours ago, Mr Hankey said:

Be very surprised if many/any Ipswich fans would think Mark Ashton is a "t w a t" - they are on the brink of promotion to the Prem after coming straight up from league 1 with Ashton at the helm. Very odd take for an Ipswich "fan" to have.

It's understandable from us to think that way, but he's done nothing wrong at Ipswich for them to have that view.

 

I doubt Dave invented that, so I imagine it's based on their opinion of his general demeanour and how he presents himself, rather than on the success of Ipswich this term.

[Mr Hankey]

1 hour ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

I doubt Dave invented that, so I imagine it's based on their opinion of his general demeanour and how he presents himself, rather than on the success of Ipswich this term.

Didn't say he invented as such, just don't believe they could be proper "fans" of Ipswich if they have a low opinion of Ashton after all the shite they have endured both on the pitch & off of it (managers/board ect) over the past 23 years or so since their last relegation from the Prem, maybe more Dave's opinion of Ashton came through more from his side than theirs - "That Ashton is a right ****, proper t w a t aint he" - "Haha, yeh ok mate" for example.

He's their Golden Goose......sure it could go tits up, but it looks like Ashton has found the perfect home, particularly as he had such a big role in the takeover to begin with, so i can imagine he is fully invested. I think he will carry on succeeding at Ipswich, despite how much it might piss off City fans.

Edited March 6 by Mr Hankey

[italian dave]

6 hours ago, frenchred said:

Unbelievable, we also spoke to various Ipswich fans in hotel and to a man they love Ashton, think he's a bit of a genius with the recruitment they've done,!

I was surprised too. And they acknowledged that you won't find many other Ipswich fans saying the same. But it did give me a little greater respect for their judgement!!

[Superjack]

15 hours ago, cidercity1987 said:

Lee Johnson: Great job at Oldham turning perennial relegation battlers into a solid upper midtable side. Got a move to Barnsley, poor run followed by a brilliant run, left them in a good position and they got promoted.

 

Liam Manning: Play offs with MK Done followed by a sacking in the relegation zone and they indeed went down. Appointed Oxford manager, saved them from relegation and had them challenging after a low number of games, now fading after he left.

Whose CV was better at the time of joining us? Probably Johnson as he had more consistent improvement in his sides 

Boom!

If this doesn't win the day, I don't know what does.

Johnson should never have been appointed. 

And yet...

[italian dave]

8 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

Leaving us with a completely dysfunctional squad and significant FFP concerns for the forthcoming years

 

Another HC you backed heavily and continually , even against the overwhelming majority towards the end . as you are laying out battlements for LM

Yet you were anything but supportive of NP 

With the miles you do you absolutely have the right , more than most of us , to have your views  - but I do find it , from clearly a passionate supporter of the Club , very strange 

I think that's a very unfair and inaccurate portrayal of my view SA.

I backed LJ because he was the City HC and I wanted him to do well. And I backed NP for exactly the same reason. I've no idea where you get this notion that I wasn't supportive of NP.

My view on both was that they manage the club I love, that they both want what's best for the club, and as long as those two things are the case then they'll have my support.

I didn't share the loathing that some on here had for LJ. And I didn't share the man love that some seemed to have for NP. So that may have put me at odds with a significant proportion on here, but I'd argue that I was the more even handed!

And I take exactly the same view as far as LM is concerned.

That doesn't preclude criticism. I've been critical of all three. But I think that criticism needs to be constructive. otherwise it stops supporting them. and for the reasons above I've supported them all.

What I don't like, and don't join in with is the endlessly repetitive negativity. It's fair enough to question - for example - whether LM is getting the best out of Tommy Conway. But there are already three separate threads all asking the same thing and all saying the same thing. So why the f... do we need yet another thread on exactly the same topic started this morning? Who exactly is this going to help?

Neither do I like go for the campaigns and petitions and calls to 'sack xxx'. (And you won't find that I ever called for NP to be sacked - not even when everyone else was!). Because it's pointless. I don't get a say. I don't know what's going on behind the scenes. And most of all because just sacking someone achieves precisely nothing - other than leaving us without a manager. 

And I certainly don't go for the name calling and the abuse. Which is becoming depressingly apparent again. It's just pathetic.

And all that applies whoever if our manager. I don't generally get particularly attached to or feel a particular antipathy to any manager. I don't know them. And as far as I'm concerned, whether it's LJ, NP, LM or anyone else, while they manage City they have my support.

So I think your assessment of my having different approaches to and views on NP and LJ is very far from the mark.