Manning's under development, he needs more time

[W-S-M Seagull]

8 minutes ago, George Rs said:

So what your saying is, our current appointment is so poor you don’t have faith in him to pick up 4 or so points from our last 10 which would probably see us safe. 

 

And your solution is to fire him and let the same people who hired the man you have so little faith in hire someone new who will have to waste time getting to know his best players, style he wants to play to come into a relatively toxic environment with only 10 games left? 

By the time we kick off on Sunday we could be uncomfortably close to the relegation zone. 

I don't agree that 4 points would be enough to keep us up. But the fact we are even discussing this means it's time for him to go. It should never have happened. 

Looking at our remaining fixtures I'm struggling to see where a win is going to come from. We know that under Manning we can't beat teams below us so our survival chances rest on us being able to take points off of the better teams that allow us to play a more counter attacking style. 

Sorry but that's just a strawman arguement. 

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, cheese said:

As I see it, Nige created a team of greyhounds (runners) whereas Manning (also read Tinnion) wants a team of intelligent footballers.  Not enough of our current squad fit into that category.  Now you can argue until you're blue in the face that Manning should adapt to the squad he has and play to their strengths but that's not what he was brought in to do.  It will be painful until he has the players he wants.  The hierarchy decided that we were safe from relegation this season and so November was the best time to press the button.  Whether they were right on timing we shall see.  Whether they were right on the appointment depends on us staying up and then seeing what happens next season.

Do you honestly think “safety from relegation” was their tipping point in making the decision to sack Nige?  They were looking upwards not downwards!  How far upwards we can only guess, but relegation was nowhere near being in their mindset.

Where I’m at, if you hadn’t guessed () is that even giving him his own players won’t make the difference the outlay will need.

[WolfOfWestStreet]

Manning doesn't need more time, he needs the sack.

This club shouldn't be a training school for prospective managers to learn their trade. Either bring something to offer, improve on what came before or piss off.

This is a big boy job in a big boy league, wish we'd have some self respect and take hiring a manager more seriously. 

[red panda]

12 hours ago, S_C said:

I absolutely believe that the manner in which he arrived is contributing to the current mood. That isn’t to say the mood would be dramatically different but I absolutely believe that if JL/BT had been more honest, if they’d thanked Pearson for his work in righting the ship and stated Manning is a promising young coach who will need time and understanding to adapt to the Championship, I think plenty would be more forgiving.

Everyone knew the top 6 squad stuff was nonsense, I’m not implying fans swallowed it and are now confused why we aren’t 5th, but they massively fumbled both Pearson's exit (in creating a false narrative about someone who had been hugely media savvy in the run up to his departure) and Manning’s appointment. It left a sour taste in a fanbase already sceptical of the hierarchy, whilst lumping Manning in their corner as their man. It created undue pressure. Had they not, I think for some the tone shifts to ‘we’ve had some good performances, look at Watford, look at Southampton, a nice win over PL West Ham, there are signs of potential, but he needs to improve if he’s going to take us forward' rather than ‘out of his depth, get rid.’

I do get the criticism regarding trying to impose his style of play on a set of players that aren’t suited to it, but managers come in with their own ideas and methods. He isn’t going to play the same style/system as his predecessor, and I think 10/15 games is probably around the mark you’d realise what you want to do might not work. It’s all well and good criticising that he isn’t being flexible but you don't get the green light to implement your methods, struggle for 4 games, and then revert to what the bloke who just got fired was doing. Clearly it will take time, either for it to work or realise it isn’t. Even if its acknowledged that the players don't quite fit, that must be known prior to appointment, otherwise BT/JL sat in an interview with LM and said 'What we're looking for is exactly how we're playing now..'

His first 10 games were W4 D3 L3. I’d say that’s pretty fine and argue, actually, that he’s therefore had 15 games to consider what he’s trying to do might be too much too soon. For what it’s worth, we’ve had 14 games between 1st Jan and 2nd Mar, several against PL teams, including an ET and demoralising penalties loss. That’s a lot of games, many against superior opposition. Though I don’t condone it and acknowledge its dangers, there’s been an air throughout that we’ll finish mid table. It's his responsibility to manage that of course, but it isnt hard to see how complacency and fatigue, both physically and mentally, can set in.

As has been said elsewhere, poor and lose to Swansea and the club are staring down both barrels. I can’t help but feel, though, that whilst both Pearson and Manning had their challenges, Pearson’s were used to excuse him whereas Manning’s are brushed aside.

 

12 hours ago, Davefevs said:

What are the comparative “challenges” you see that should’ve resulted in equal treatment?

For me, Nige inherited a mess and therefore needed a period of time to reset the club.

Liam took over a club in a “healthy state” - BT:

”best squad in a long time, well contracted, only 3 OOC in the summer”

In fairness he did say “when fit”.  Although we have seen a few more creep in over recent weeks, they’ve been spread across the positions, so he hasn’t had to play players out of position.

Depth has been an issue for both, but we are then back to budgets!

FWIW I don’t think Manning is shit, there are things I like about the way he’s done things.  But just too many areas I’m not convinced by.  I didn’t like everything Nige did either.

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Colemanballs said:

You have been sucked into a Manning vs Pearson debate which is a (deliberate) distraction from the issue at hand, namely whether Manning should be given more time. What Pearson did or not do and what challenges he faced are irrelevant to the decision we are faced with now which I think boils down to how one answers the following questions. 

• Is the current squad suited to the style of play Manning prefers? My opinion: No. I think pretty much everyone agrees on this whether in the pro or anti Manning camps.
• Will Manning change style to a more pragmatic approach to suit the squad? My opinion: No. He has made it abundantly clear that he is wedded to this possession football.
• Can the current squad be easily transformed (bearing in mind our likely budget) into a squad that is suited to the style of play Manning prefers? My opinion: No. The squad has been built to play a fast, counterattacking style of play, the antithesis of the possession based style Manning favours. Transitioning to such a style would require a significant revamp of the existing squad requiring serious investment and excellent transfer dealings.
• Is the style of play Manning prefers likely to see us challenging for promotion? My opinion: No. To work, possession based football requires that you have players who are significantly better than the opposition. I cannot think of a single club that has been promoted from the Championship playing possession based football that has not had the benefit of parachute payments. Of the clubs that have not had the benefit of parachute payments that have been promoted from the Championship, they have generally played some kind of pragmatic style.
• Is the style of play Manning prefers likely to see us playing more attractive football? My opinion: No. I find all that sideways passing tedious. I appreciate that many appreciate that style of football though.

I don't like to see anyone fired, but based on my answers to the questions, I believe he should go now. Otherwise, the very real fear is that we waste substantial money rebuilding the squad over the summer and at best end up mid table and at worst are in a relegation battle. Obviously, my answers are all opinions and it may be that others would answer yes to some or all of them and therefore come to a different conclusion. Based on the evidence we have before us though, it is difficult for me to see how they would do so.

 

6 hours ago, Capman said:

For me context is everything. Those who say we need to ‘move on’ are missing the point. 
Pearson was fired because he was an experienced manager prepared to speak footballing ‘truth’ to an establishment who did not want to listen as it was not something they were wanting to hear. 
I agree, Manning is inexperienced and should normally be given more time. Problem is, if he is and by some miracle learns lots and learns it fast he will simply be an experienced manager who speaks truth to an establishment who do not want to hear it. The outcome of that is likely to simply be Deja vu. 
Unfortunately I think we have an establishment who are unprepared to face the challenging nature of climbing out of the championship and until that changes it really doesn’t matter who is in the head coach seat. The club just does not have the ambition. 
 

 

5 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

You're making this a Manning Vs Pearson debate in order to distract from the current situation which is 4 losses in a row and 23 points from 21 games. If any manager delivered that sort of record then the mood is going to be exactly the same. 

Personally I can't see any situation where a 'give him time' with a squad already good enough for top 10 would have people be forgiven of our regression. 

Manning has shown absolutely nothing that even with time, he'll come good. 

You mention about excuses for Pearson but then 90% of your post is excuses for Manning. 

 

 

5 hours ago, TV Tom said:

Can't remember Pearson getting the same stick when he went 14 odd games without a home win

 

5 hours ago, Sir Geoff said:

The comments made about a style of play was made by Tinnion whilst Pearson was still here.

They then hired a manager that was alien to that style of play.

 

4 hours ago, Sir Geoff said:

You may well be right, but I thought I'd heard Tinnion talk about it earlier than that and thought that Pearson alluded to it in an interview a while back.

 

4 hours ago, IAmNick said:

Yeah you're right Tinnion did as well I think while Pearson was here. Confusing regardless!

 

4 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

I seem to remember some rumblings , but wasn't that during his early days as permanent Boss ?
Just after over seeing 14 departures , bringing in 4 . 
Because of the situation many fans were ok with Pearson getting time. It wasn't even just a shed load of OOC players and reducing the wage bill through necessity , the medical and coaching staff was rebuilt . There were a lot of moving parts.
Manning has come into a good situation for a new boss. 
Squad recovering health & availability .
Very good levels of fitness.
Good atmosphere and bond through the team. 
A decent squad and mix of players. 
There were infact none of the usual problems faced by new Managers, they wanted taking to the next level, some improvement on the pitch. 

This is my problem , he has seemingly been brought up with a single philosophy . He is so wedded to this he always wants to play that way and is convinced the plan is right.
This is fine to a point .
Take the Ipswich game;
He looks at Ipswich, how they play and set up . Makes a plan for that and is happy. The Plan seems to work , and now here's the problem. We are facing another team and another Manager who sees "HIS" plan isn't working so changes things. All of a sudden our plan isn't working, but Manning knows his plan WAS working and so sticks to it , because the Plan was working.

I criticised Pearson for everything from selection to set up to Subs at times. But he more than once made very early Subs because he got things wrong, that was because he was experienced and big enough to take it on the chin. I don't see that in Manning's make up.

Taking the Manning V Pearson thing out of it . 
Manning's inability to adjust is a worry, his willingness to blame everyone else is a worry , that he seems to get out thought with "in game tactics" is a worry , the fact the players look less fit than when he came in is a worry, the fact he seems to be playing players with injuries is a worry.  You can add we struggle against the same tactics week in week out. Because we do better against more open teams isn't an excuse. 

As it stands I can't think of many reasons he shouldn't be sacked, apart from it doesn't show the decision makers in a good light. We have a few games against teams that will be a little more open, so we could pick up points Vs Swansea , WBA , Leicester , Plymouth & Sunderland . 6 points will not only probably see us safe, it will be enough to buy time for Manning and that add more worries.

Will he choose the players we bring in, will BT give him the players, as he will be effectively be on borrowed time. 
With a limited budget I'm not sure even if we spend £10M on this ( big , strong , quick , effective , potent ) striker we are after , will make any difference to the team . 
We buy a target man who can hold the ball up for runners, how does that fit with Manning ball ??

We are in a mess of our own making. Not Mannings fault he is here, but clearly not a good fit and incapable of being able to adapt , which doesn't look good for a young Coach. 

 

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

@Colemanballs I’m beginning to think that’s the only thing they have left in their argument, to keep dragging it back to Pearson.  I rarely see anything detailing the pros of Manning.  In fact, I reckon I give more pros of Manning than they do!

guess why he didn’t, because into 21/22 he won games away.  Ultimately it matters not at which venue younein, but that you do win.  Oh, and he did get stick, tonnes of it.  Short memories.  It was probably the foundation of “Nige-out” at the time.

If they were to replace Manning, there wouldn’t need to be a(nother) rebuild if they got an adaptable manager in.

Without going through all the quotes, they appointed Manning because they thought all modern, progressive, on the grass coaches play high press, forward thinking football.  Possession and winning (MK season 1, Oxford early this season) do not equal high press, forward thinking football.  It’s incredible incompetence they thought that. 

 

4 hours ago, fisherrich said:

I don’t see it as a Manning v Nige debate. The boil needs to be lanced - ie the Lansdowns need to sell up. Getting rid of Manning will make no difference as those 2 Lansdown buffoons will just employ another YES man. No faith in Zippee and Bungle running this football club/aka Bristol Sport.
What I liked about Nige P was his absolute honesty and passion for the football club. What a loss!

 

3 hours ago, BCFC_Dan said:

Pearson took 9 points from 14 games during his initial short term contact, yet he was rewarded for that with a 3 year deal. I thought that a daft move at the time, and I still do. He then delivered 2.5 years of largely uninspiring football and mediocre results.

However, he was operating under restricted circumstances and there was, as he saw it, a lot of work to be done to get the club into a shape where it could succeed. I don't know if that means any manager would have to do that work in order to succeed, or if it was work that Pearson created. Nevertheless, he was getting on with it and making slow but steady progress. He had a number of runs of poor form, and also a few periods of personal ill health, but the club stuck by him and let him continue his work.

Then, suddenly, out of nowhere, the club hierarchy decided they didn't like the direction of travel that the club had been on for nearly 3 years and decided to impose a complete stylistic change, under a relatively inexperienced coach. Not only that, but they declared the squad, which was largely built for and by Pearson, and of mid table quality at best, to be capable of finishing in the top 6, something that was self-evidently not true, and did nothing but heap pressure on their new manager.

Personally, I like Manning, and I like the performances I've seen (I only see televised games and the odd away fixture, so I've been lucky in what I've witnessed). I think he's the right man to take the club forward. However, it's pretty obvious that the manner in which decisions have been made has made things about as difficult as possible to achieve success.

I don't hate the Lansdowns, or Brian Tinnion, and both have done plenty of good work, but the decisions taken over the management have been quite ridiculous. It was obvious at every stage what they were going to get from Nigel Pearson. He didn't even deliver particularly good results, and his style of play was well known. If they wanted that style of play, then fine, let him do the job. If they wanted him to steady the ship and build a platform, then fine, sack him in the summer of 2023, or let him run out his contract, then make a change. If they wanted a different style of play or better results, don't appoint the guy with 2 wins in 14 games, who doesn't play how you want to play, in the first place. Whatever the individual merits of Manning and Pearson may be, not one of those decisions really makes any sense.

 

3 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

You just don't like to hear the truth that Pearson and Manning inherited vastly different squad's because it doesnt fit with your agenda. 

 

3 hours ago, pillred said:

I have said on another post-NP did not get particularly good results, now how much of that was down to reducing the wage bill getting rid of the dead wood etc I don't know. I have come in for some stick for even daring to point that out, he was working under some constraints but the way he is mourned on here anyone would think we had been successful and entertaining under his management, well I must have missed that part, as you have pointed out Manning seems to be on a hiding to nothing what frustrates me most is good results and performances followed by disappointment. I personally can see some improvement overall the team look more cohesive but again we have the curse of Bristol City with injuries which have impacted our progress, all this harking back to the "good old days" under Pearson is getting us nowhere. 

 

3 hours ago, AshtonGreat said:

Pearson managed 12 points from his first 15 games?

 

3 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

This season (which is the only fair comparison) Pearson managed 18 points from 14 games. 

 

3 hours ago, Galley is our king said:

If people are told the truth, it helps but..... the rationale for sacking Pearson is just a tissue of LIES.

People who deliberately lie, lose respect.

When those same lies actually make us worse, you end up where we currently are. 

Now, JL and BT can not expect any, or little respect.

They also seem not to be able to do anything about it nor indeed put out any comms (another lie which they said would improve).

They are in a hole of their own making.

 

 

3 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

Before that we got 9 from 14 games and 6 defeats on the trot . Do you think there might be some context needed here ?

Pearson inherited a shitshow with no transfer window. 10 points away from PO's -13 GD 

Manning inherited a reasonable team , window approaching ,5 points from the Playoffs. -1 GD

 

 

3 hours ago, bearded_red said:

If your only defence of Liam Manning is that we’re not doing as badly as when Pearson took over that complete omnishambles I’d suggest that in itself speaks volumes for what a job he’s doing.

 

2 hours ago, RollsRoyce said:

Let's talk about Manning. Pearson has gone, and Manning being unsuited has nothing to do with Pearson. Two hugely different scenarios.

So, why did we appoint Manning? What are the attributes you see, with the squad that we have, that suit the way Manning wants to play? What youth players have been developed under Manning? What players have improved under Manning? Why, when Luton and possibly Ipswich get promoted to the Prem playing a certain way, with a budget closer to ours than say Leeds/Burnley/Leicester do you think the Manning 's approach to playing football is superior to that of McKenna and Edwards? How many players does Manning need to sign? Particularly when 2 players already signed, we tried to sign before he got here, a powerful forward we tried to sign before he got here, and the number 10 position, filled by Scott and not replaced, would have been filled if the money was available. So we already know the squad for next year, bar Twine (or his replacement) and a Semenyo replacement. Is that enough to give Manning the players he would want to play his way? Is that way of playing as. a non-parachute payment club going to bring success? As we would be the first club to do that, nothing like being first of course, but it does not follow any other path to success by any other club. 

In any case, when, who, has said we are now going on a different path? The club have never said it, fans have created this narrative to explain Mannings's failure. 

In my view, the club did not do their due diligence and hired a Russel Martin replacement, when what we needed was a McKenna or Edwards if we wanted to utilise better the players at our disposal. 

It will be faster and more economical to cut our losses with Manning now before we enter into a blind faith, or an attempt at face-saving , path that will be destructive and carries a high risk of relegation next season. 

Whilst 10 games left can change the mood and take Manning into next season with positive energy, something stupendous will need to happen to lift what would appear to be increasing doubts. An empty ground at full-time for a derby I had never seen before, and the atmosphere was the worst I can recall for a derby. There is no faith or belief. Those are worrying traits. Anger would be better, really, as it shows passion. But people have stopped caring. As it is a lost cause. 

So, please, try and explain what it is that you believe Manning has that I and maybe a few others are struggling to grasp. 

 

2 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

It’s called doubling down Gull

The loudest anti Pearson screamers are feeling a bit vulnerable 

 

2 hours ago, pillred said:

It was a bit of an unnecessary mess wasn't it, there does seem to be a common denominator in all this and I'm not sure if just changing the manager will ever improve it, I just wish there was less negativity towards Mannings's appointment as he hasn't exactly had a lot of luck as far as injuries and recruitment have gone, I also agree we were not told the real reason Pearson was sacked personally I think it was a combination of poor results, his overall health, and of course him calling a Spade a Spade.

 

2 hours ago, italian dave said:

I think maybe you’ve answered your own question Dave!

I guess we’ll see whether the January window was about budgets or about who’s available come the summer.

One thing I think is often overlooked - because it’s out of sight and off the field - is the issue of relationships and trust. If the assumptions on here are correct, then that was NPs downfall at the end of the day. I have no idea what goes on behind the scenes, but you’d imagine/hope that relationship and trust between senior people is now better. And that has to be a good thing for the club.

I know you can debate whether the right people ended up leaving when those relationships broke down - but that’s a fairly pointless debate: it’s just about being realistic!

And I know you can make the case @Capman  makes above about speaking truth to power. And I don’t argue with that. But there are ways of doing that. And doing it in a way that ends up with a complete breakdown of the relationship isn’t the way.

I think you’ve made the point in the past about Gould having been the buffer between NP and JL and it’s possibly his departure that’s been more of a problem for the club than anything else.

Whether LM is just a ‘yes man’, or whether he has different skills in terms of speaking that truth - I’ve no idea, and I’m not sure anyone on here really does? 

 

2 hours ago, TV Tom said:

To be honest I really don't know what Manning has or doesn't have yet but like it or not he is our manager so i'm willing to give him a chance and a bit of time and get behind him, the good games have been good and the bad games have been bad so much the status quo of the last five years, since xmas i've really enjoyed a few games (the 4 cup games, Cov' Middlesbrough, Southampton and even Ipswich the other night, the bad games were atrocious as were many games under NP (i still break out into a cold sweat with our away performance at Reading last season)

 

2 hours ago, MarcusX said:

Pearson got loads of stick early in his first full season, and some wanted him gone before Xmas that year.

Doesnt matter what side of the “divide” you are on, its re-writing history to pretend Pearson had it easy or didn’t get any stick from fans at the same stage of his tenure as Manning is in.

Difference js, Nige should have been in credit to some extent after keeping us up.

 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, TV Tom said:

I'm happy to give Pearson plenty of credit and am fully appreciative of some of the things he did under difficult circumstances but after two and a half years i think the time was right to go, again this is only my opinion and i appreciate fully and i understand why some people have the opposite opinion

 

2 hours ago, RedRock said:

As said many times previously, if you want to get promoted playing fast-paced, front-foot possession football you need a team made up of the division’s best and most skilled players at that style. Man City are successful as they can buy the best. 

We simply don’t have those players because they cost £££. Pearson adopted an all together different and pragmatic approach of trying to weld a successful team.  A ‘band of brothers’ approach. His problem - aside from the off the field issues - was that recruitment was pretty poor. As a consequence, we weren’t improving - at least not at a fast enough pace. 

With a great deal of luck you might be able to develop a Man City style of play on the cheap and develop your own youngsters, or buy in young players for elsewhere - the strategy we’re, seemingly, now employing but that will take time and possibly, a relegation. No guarantees of eventual success though and the likelihood is if we do develop any decent players they’ll be snaffled up by bigger Clubs - unless by some stroke of good luck they develop all at the same time so we can offer players a realistic vision of them as a collective going on to the Prem. 

While I can see some logic in ditching Pearson, I struggle massively with flip-flopping to an entirely different approach and reversion back to the failed LJ type model. 

Think we’re right in a hole now. Stick or twist? 

Gamble either way. Do I trust our recruitment ‘team’ to deliver quality, physically resilient players in the Summer that can deliver ‘Pep’ football?  No. Do I think that Manning can adapt his style of play, get the players on board and become a quality in-game manager in the last ten games? No. Do I think the Lansdown’s will press the button. No, at least not until October at the earliest. 

The next few months are going to be hard for us supporters. Relegation, I fear, is a distinct possibly.
 

 

2 hours ago, Steve Watts said:

He doesn't throw the team under the bus at all.  I know this because he tells us he's not doing this......usually just before throwing the team under the bus...but he's assured us he's not doing that......

Whether the change was needed or not it was absolutely not the case that the time was right for him to go.  It was either too early or too late, but to sack him when they did was wrong on all levels.

 

1 hour ago, Meh said:

When Nigel was here and things were bad he was honest with fans and detract blame from his players, he tried tinkering with the system slightly, personnel slightly and maybe switched the speed of play and where the line was to press.

Liam is sticking to the same tactics, same formation generally, putting blame on the players already under pressure and changing the team regularly and it does not seem to be representative of who fans are seeing having a bad patch.

It reminds me so much of LJ and what became known as his tombola team selection. Manning does not seem to know his strongest team and is not changing our style to combat the system of the opposition.

Experience over inexperience I guess.

 

34 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

I think the vast majority of us agree that sacking Pearson was unnecessary and short-sighted and yet another reason why the Lansdown family need to be away from this club as soon as possible. 

However, we can't turn the clock back, that's old history and in the short-term I'm interested in how we can make the team more competitive now.

Sacking Manning with 10 games to go would be a big roll of the dice. Unless the new guy hits the ground running it'll take a while for him to know the players and work out where they best perform. LJ pulled off a rescue package when he came in, SOD did the opposite. Both had more than 10 games however.

For me, rather than take that particular gamble now, removing the malign influence of our unofficial DOF might be a quick fix to allow this coach more flexibility in how he sets up. The entire logic of putting a bloke in as DOF whose management career amounts to failing at one club is crazy. "Brian is in overall charge of all football matters" was the most chilling thing I've read on the OS. You might as well ring up Liz Truss to get her advice on balancing your household budget. 

We might have a shot at bringing in a genuine wise advisor before the season end or perhaps it's just time for the club to realise that the Tinnion as DOF experiment isn't working and just let Manning stand or fall on his own merits. 

 

22 minutes ago, Capman said:

I agree with that summary by the way. NP should certainly be reflecting on his own responsibilities to build relationships, but ultimately that is not the supporters problem. The supporters, I suspect, want an experienced manager who can build a successful team. They do not need over delicate egos (in the board room or the dug out) thinking they are more important than getting points on the board and getting the team promoted. 

 

21 minutes ago, cheese said:

As I see it, Nige created a team of greyhounds (runners) whereas Manning (also read Tinnion) wants a team of intelligent footballers.  Not enough of our current squad fit into that category.  Now you can argue until you're blue in the face that Manning should adapt to the squad he has and play to their strengths but that's not what he was brought in to do.  It will be painful until he has the players he wants.  The hierarchy decided that we were safe from relegation this season and so November was the best time to press the button.  Whether they were right on timing we shall see.  Whether they were right on the appointment depends on us staying up and then seeing what happens next season.

 

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Do you honestly think “safety from relegation” was their tipping point in making the decision to sack Nige?  They were looking upwards not downwards!  How far upwards we can only guess, but relegation was nowhere near being in their mindset.

Where I’m at, if you hadn’t guessed () is that even giving him his own players won’t make the difference the outlay will need.

Only 34 posts so far that explicitly mention Nige (I didn't pick those where the reference was only implicit, even if it was obvious)

Edited March 7 by red panda

[cheese]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Do you honestly think “safety from relegation” was their tipping point in making the decision to sack Nige?  They were looking upwards not downwards!  How far upwards we can only guess, but relegation was nowhere near being in their mindset.

Where I’m at, if you hadn’t guessed () is that even giving him his own players won’t make the difference the outlay will need.

I do, I can't see any other reason for the timing.  Nobody who doesn't get carried away by the occassional win honestly thought we'd get promoted this season did they?  I know I didn't believe JL's pronouncement that we had a "top 6 squad".

[Silvio Dante]

Re the Tinnion and/or Manning going to “roll the dice” they do both definitely need to go but it’s only Manning leaving that changes our chances this season.

Tinnion is horrendously incompetent - but he’s not stood in the technical area like a statue when other managers make changes. He’s not picking the side, he’s not choosing the style, he’s not making the subs. And I’ve seen enough of Liam to think that if Tinnion did tell him what to do he’d tell him where to go.

You change Tinnion where is the evidence that Manning would listen to a more experienced DoF? He genuinely believes what he is doing is right (19 out of 20 good performances, opposition managers say how well we’ve played) - and it’s the players who aren’t doing what his perfect plan tells them to. You could have Cloughie come down reincarnated and Liam would believe his process is best.

When we did this (does he need help) a week or so ago I professed I didnt think he’d take it, and his mentors are equally “coaches” and not used to management so may not be much help. I discovered during the Sky commentary at Ipswich that George Burley is resident mute “Hoggy”s father in law. On that basis alone I throw that name in as there is a connection if we went the help route but still don’t think Liam would be amenable.

We need rid of both. But considering where we are and how he’s managing games, it has to be Liam in preference to Tinnion leaving as first port of call 

Edited March 7 by Silvio Dante

[Numero Uno]

The truth is Manning has got to deliver something in the next nine games otherwise his position is untenable.  Taking @red panda’s point on board and judging HIM ONLY, forget what’s gone before, four straight defeats, three against sides who played a certain way against us, is not promising at all when coupled with an overall record of 9 points in twelve games sine the win on Boxing Day. I would say the same if Pep was in charge. Given we know he is unlikely to get fired in the next few weeks he needs to deliver a good 12-15 points in his last 9 games to give me and probably a large chunk of the fanbase any confidence whatsoever that he should be here come August.

[Silvio Dante]

8 minutes ago, red panda said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Only 34 posts so far that explicitly mention Nige (I didn't pick those where the reference was only implicit, even if it was obvious)

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, TV Tom said:

To be honest I really don't know what Manning has or doesn't have yet but like it or not he is our manager so i'm willing to give him a chance and a bit of time and get behind him, the good games have been good and the bad games have been bad so much the status quo of the last five years, since xmas i've really enjoyed a few games (the 4 cup games, Cov' Middlesbrough, Southampton and even Ipswich the other night, the bad games were atrocious as were many games under NP (i still break out into a cold sweat with our away performance at Reading last season)

The good at their best have been very decent, but the bad have been wretched.

Even some that haven't been so bad technically have been sleep inducing. Some okay too of course.

Negatives very much outweigh positives so far for me.

Edited March 7 by Mr Popodopolous

[Red-Robbo]

14 minutes ago, red panda said:

 

Only 34 posts so far that explicitly mention Nige (I didn't pick those where the reference was only implicit, even if it was obvious)

 

Mind did, but only in the context of - unless there's a time machine invented - we have to move on and focus on the here and now.  How do we stay up?

[Major Isewater]

38 minutes ago, George Rs said:

into a relatively toxic environment

It would be less toxic than the one LM inherited. 
 

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, RedRock said:

As said many times previously, if you want to get promoted playing fast-paced, front-foot possession football you need a team made up of the division’s best and most skilled players at that style. Man City are successful as they can buy the best. 

We simply don’t have those players because they cost £££. Pearson adopted an all together different and pragmatic approach of trying to weld a successful team.  A ‘band of brothers’ approach. His problem - aside from the off the field issues - was that recruitment was pretty poor. As a consequence, we weren’t improving - at least not at a fast enough pace. 

With a great deal of luck you might be able to develop a Man City style of play on the cheap and develop your own youngsters, or buy in young players for elsewhere - the strategy we’re, seemingly, now employing but that will take time and possibly, a relegation. No guarantees of eventual success though and the likelihood is if we do develop any decent players they’ll be snaffled up by bigger Clubs - unless by some stroke of good luck they develop all at the same time so we can offer players a realistic vision of them as a collective going on to the Prem. 

While I can see some logic in ditching Pearson, I struggle massively with flip-flopping to an entirely different approach and reversion back to the failed LJ type model. 

Think we’re right in a hole now. Stick or twist? 

Gamble either way. Do I trust our recruitment ‘team’ to deliver quality, physically resilient players in the Summer that can deliver ‘Pep’ football?  No. Do I think that Manning can adapt his style of play, get the players on board and become a quality in-game manager in the last ten games? No. Do I think the Lansdown’s will press the button. No, at least not until October at the earliest. 

The next few months are going to be hard for us supporters. Relegation, I fear, is a distinct possibly.
 

To be fair I'd ask about Brentford, Leeds (Frank and Bielsa respectively).

This sides were entertaining, or dominant at least, non Parachute and high possession.

Albeit Leeds had a major income for the level and pushed spending to high limits but...

It isn't just Man City vs fail. Brentford towards and up to the year of their Promotion, more comparable?

What I'm saying is not all Possession style is just Man City, plenty in between that and pacy counter attacking. 

I do agree with a lot of your post though and it is hard to find examples of non Parachute clubs.

Edited March 7 by Mr Popodopolous

[George Rs]

10 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The good at their best have been very decent, but the bad have been wretched.

Even some that haven't been so bad technically have been sleep inducing. Some okay too of course.

Negatives very much outweigh positives so far for me.

Yes that i do agree with. 

I just think that we are already to into Mannings tenure to get rid of him without serious consequences. It isn’t a Rooney situation for example where it was just a completely wrong decision but there wasn’t any big downsides with sacking him. 

Manning most likely won’t get sacked, and if he does i think we’d have to lose the next two before it happens. Where does that leave us? 8 games left with a confidence shot squad with a HC position to fill. I don’t know the free agent management market but who would take that position? And more importantly who would succeed? 

Maybe it would come back to bite me but i’d rather take my chances with Manning than the alternative unknown until the end of the season and then reevaluate. 

Edited March 7 by George Rs

[italian dave]

43 minutes ago, cheese said:

As I see it, Nige created a team of greyhounds (runners) whereas Manning (also read Tinnion) wants a team of intelligent footballers.  Not enough of our current squad fit into that category.  Now you can argue until you're blue in the face that Manning should adapt to the squad he has and play to their strengths but that's not what he was brought in to do.  It will be painful until he has the players he wants.  The hierarchy decided that we were safe from relegation this season and so November was the best time to press the button.  Whether they were right on timing we shall see.  Whether they were right on the appointment depends on us staying up and then seeing what happens next season.

 

40 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

Then why were the club so clear with their expectations for the season, which was progress/success?

They didn't say - transition and do our best until the summer when we can replace and rebuild the squad for a year or twos time.

So what was Manning brought in to do?

You could maybe argue that you’re both right?! And that reflects the bungled and illogical nature of the comms plan the club put together to deal with it.

Everything is in place we have a top end squad, we don’t need to change anything, but we are changing things. Everything’s hunk dory and we’re bringing in someone different to do the same as the person we’ve just sacked. At the same time we need to do something different to get to a different place to where we are now. 

It doesn’t make sense. Which means you can read into it what you will. 

Edited March 7 by italian dave

[TV Tom]

10 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The good at their best have been very decent, but the bad have been wretched.

Even some that haven't been so bad technically have been sleep inducing. Some okay too of course.

Negatives very much outweigh positives so far for me.

I get everything you say

[italian dave]

27 minutes ago, red panda said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Only 34 posts so far that explicitly mention Nige (I didn't pick those where the reference was only implicit, even if it was obvious)

Bloody hell RP!!

Its bad enough having to wade through umpteen threads all having a moan, without finding a whole thread repeated within a thread

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 minutes ago, George Rs said:

Yes that i do agree with. 

I just think that we are already to into Mannings tenure to get rid of him without serious consequences. It isn’t a Rooney situation for example where it was just a completely wrong decision but there wasn’t any big downsides with sacking him. 

Manning most likely won’t get sacked, and if he does i think we’d have to lose the next two before it happens. Where does that leave us? 8 games left with a confidence shot squad with a HC position to fill. I don’t know the free agent management market but who would take that position? And more importantly who would succeed? 

Maybe it would come back to bite me but i’d rather take my chances with Manning than the alternative unknown until the end of the season and then reevaluate. 

More of an Edwards or Moore?

Suppose we are better off than the latter but there are similarities with Edwards perhaps. He took over from an experienced manager, first game actually the same as Manning, he himself looked like he had cracked it with 3 wins and 10 points from that period with 4 clean sheets on the bounce, but Millwall started to plunge thereafter.

Or a new, even temporary manager could give a shot in the arm. I only think the change is required this year if relegation is a real risk but even if we stay up, definitely re-evaluate in the summer.

That goes for Jon Lansdown and Tinnion too.

Edited March 7 by Mr Popodopolous

[W-S-M Seagull]

2 minutes ago, George Rs said:

Yes that i do agree with. 

I just think that we are already to do into Mannings tenure to get rid of him without serious consequences. It isn’t a Rooney situation for example where it was just a completely wrong decision but there wasn’t any big downsides with sacking him. 

Manning most likely won’t get sacked, and if he does i think we’d have to lose the next two before it happens. Where does that leave us? 8 games left with a confidence shot squad with a HC position to fill. I don’t know the free agent management market but who would take that position? And more importantly who would succeed? 

Maybe it would come back to bite me but i’d rather take my chances with Manning than the alternative unknown until the end of the season and then reevaluate. 

He's had half a season almost. Other clubs have got rid of other managers for less time. 

This is directly comparable to the Rooney situation because both the decision to sack Pearson and then to hire Manning was completely wrong as Manning was never the right fit. It's just that our regression has been over a longer period of time. 

There isn't any big downsides to sacking Manning either. Can't think of one tbh. 

The squad lacks confidence as it is. I'd suggest that even putting King in charge on a temporary basis would give the squad that confidence boost. 

I'd rather take the alternative of getting rid than keeping him as based on what we've seen I have no confidence that things are going to improve. Lets not forget we've lost 4 in a row. 

Manning should not be in charge past the summer so there is no point in keeping him now and just blindly hoping he can turn it around. 

 

 

[George Rs]

1 minute ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

He's had half a season almost. Other clubs have got rid of other managers for less time. 

This is directly comparable to the Rooney situation because both the decision to sack Pearson and then to hire Manning was completely wrong as Manning was never the right fit. It's just that our regression has been over a longer period of time. 

There isn't any big downsides to sacking Manning either. Can't think of one tbh. 

The squad lacks confidence as it is. I'd suggest that even putting King in charge on a temporary basis would give the squad that confidence boost. 

I'd rather take the alternative of getting rid than keeping him as based on what we've seen I have no confidence that things are going to improve. Lets not forget we've lost 4 in a row. 

Manning should not be in charge past the summer so there is no point in keeping him now and just blindly hoping he can turn it around. 

 

 

Why do you blindly think Andy King can do a better job though? 

That’s my point, whilst things have been undoubtedly poor as a whole under manning we have still picked up points. If we take his average we’d get 9 more points by the end of the season which would make us safe from relegation. And then reevaluate. 

Im not saying keep him indefinitely, just don’t think anyone can do a better job is such a short space of time. 

[redsquirrel]

2 hours ago, SydneyCity said:

This is exactly what Aberdeen have done with Warnock and it’s been an absolute disaster for them. They have a decent squad that should be aiming for third, but are possibly heading to a relegation battle.

A big reason for this, that’s been given by those ITK is that the players aren’t really listening to a word he says, as they know he’s not going to be there long-term.

i dont think you have fully read my post. players wouldnt be listening to him as they would be listening to manning with colin sat in his office. colin is there as a full blown manager, i didnt suggest that

[IAmNick]

11 minutes ago, George Rs said:

Why do you blindly think Andy King can do a better job though? 

That’s my point, whilst things have been undoubtedly poor as a whole under manning we have still picked up points. If we take his average we’d get 9 more points by the end of the season which would make us safe from relegation. And then reevaluate. 

Im not saying keep him indefinitely, just don’t think anyone can do a better job is such a short space of time. 

This season is done though, right?

So it's not about getting someone in who'll do a better job until the end of the season, it's about getting someone in who's more deserving of / likely to produce success with the summer and a few reinforcements on top of this current squad.

If he's not good enough to keep indefinitely, why keep him for now? Sounds like some sunk cost fallacy there to me.

(I agree about there being little point to appointing King either though)

[Selred]

40 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

We need rid of both. But considering where we are and how he’s managing games, it has to be Liam in preference to Tinnion leaving as first port of call 

As I said on another thread, if Manning goes I don't trust Tinnion to get the right man in to replace him.

[italian dave]

3 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

It’s called doubling down Gull

The loudest anti Pearson screamers are feeling a bit vulnerable 

Who exactly are the “anti-Pearson screamers”, SA?

Given recent comments you’ve made, maybe you have me down as one? And if that’s the case then - as I’ve said to you several times - you have that completely wrong.

If not, who?

I honestly can’t recall any sort of concerted anti NP sentiment last year, and certainly no concerted campaign calling for his departure.

Ive just had a quick  look back at the last two matchday threads of NPs tenure. Both defeats. I thought maybe I’d forgotten something. But, no, no sort of campaign at all - quite the opposite in fact. And, as far as I could see, not a single post calling for him to be sacked.

I just wonder whether these ‘screamers’ exist in the same place as Bristol Sport employees?! 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Joe Edwards- Millwall

Reached his high water mark on 1st January vs a certain side and club. 15 points 11 Games, beat a certain team. 11 came from 5, the aforementioned 3 wins on the spin and 4 clean sheets. 4 wins in 11 League games.

Thereafter 1 point from 7 games including 4 losses on the spin- the latter for him an equal run to what we are on.

We are not Joe Edwards Millwall bad but are we on a similar downward trajectory?

Edited March 7 by Mr Popodopolous

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, Selred said:

As I said on another thread, if Manning goes I don't trust Tinnion to get the right man in to replace him.

And nor do I. And quite importantly I’m not sure SL would if we had to jettison Liam. I think the decision would go out of Brian’s hands pending him being busted down to academy or sacked himself due to how wrong he got this one.

Not sure I’d trust SL to get it right either mind!

[Mr Popodopolous]

15 from 10, to 8 from 10.

4 wins from 10 to 2 wins from 10.

Amended

15 from 10 to 8 from 11.

4 wins from 10 to 2 from 11.

Edited March 7 by Mr Popodopolous
Got my sums slightly wrong..

[CyderInACan]

4 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

And nor do I. And quite importantly I’m not sure SL would if we had to jettison Liam. I think the decision would go out of Brian’s hands pending him being busted down to academy or sacked himself due to how wrong he got this one.

Not sure I’d trust SL to get it right either mind!

We are in quite the pickle, really, aren't we. 

Owner, Chairman, DoF & Manager all completely bloody useless. 

[redsquirrel]

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

15 from 10, to 8 from 10.

4 wins from 10 to 2 wins from 10.

put like that,it is worrying,next stop would be 0 wins from 10

[W-S-M Seagull]

23 minutes ago, George Rs said:

Why do you blindly think Andy King can do a better job though? 

That’s my point, whilst things have been undoubtedly poor as a whole under manning we have still picked up points. If we take his average we’d get 9 more points by the end of the season which would make us safe from relegation. And then reevaluate. 

Im not saying keep him indefinitely, just don’t think anyone can do a better job is such a short space of time. 

Because had has a lot of experience in the game and is respected by the squad. In my opinion he'd be able to galvanise the squad to get enough points based on those factors. 

Manning is massively failing with this squad. Whoever comes in doesn't need to rearrange the furniture. It's not a bad squad, the opposite in fact. They don't need to install a culture and all that. They just need to be able to manage games better than Manning does which isn't a high bar is it? 

[redsquirrel]

Just now, CyderInACan said:

We are in quite the pickle, really, aren't we. 

Owner, Chairman, DoF & Manager all completely bloody useless. 

indeed we are which is why we need someone who knows what they are doing somewhere, but we dont like that approach  so pickle it is