Manning's under development, he needs more time

[reddogkev]

So, Manning is not a coach I would have hired and its fair to say he's been a mixed bag so far.  Some great wins, good cup performances and already has a string of crap losses to his name.  He seems to have a lack of consistency at the moment.  

But looking at things in a different way, with this being his first stint at Championship football and the fact he's young and inexperienced, he's bound to be developing and should be much better next season.  What are the chances of him being the right man to drive the club on?

I remain confident that If we approach the remaining ten games like last night, we'll still be in the Championship, although we need to beat Swansea on Sunday to ease the concern.

When it comes to Manning, right now, I want him to show more passion and develop some character, and after a defeat, take the loss on the chin, admit his own mistakes, and stand up for the team no matter what.

[Fuber]

1 hour ago, reddogkev said:

So, Manning is not a coach I would have hired and its fair to say he's been a mixed bag so far.  Some great wins, good cup performances and already has a string of crap losses to his name.  He seems to have a lack of consistency at the moment.  

But looking at things in a different way, with this being his first stint at Championship football and the fact he's young and inexperienced, he's bound to be developing and should be much better next season.  What are the chances of him being the right man to drive the club on?

I remain confident that If we approach the remaining ten games like last night, we'll still be in the Championship, although we need to beat Swansea on Sunday to ease the concern.

When it comes to Manning, right now, I want him to show more passion and develop some character, and after a defeat, take the loss on the chin, admit his own mistakes, and stand up for the team no matter what.

No matter the level - a coach into a new job should focus on finding a system that suits the players.

Not immediately implementing his system no holds barred.

End of story. Should he show any signs of that, or adaptability of any kind - fine.

Otherwise I just have no patience with him. The above is the whole reason I was willing to give Pearson time - I could see the gears turning in his head as time progressed. Tactics changed and adjusted to the squad.

Edited March 7 by Fuber

[Wade Wilson]

Manning is basically a novice “why am I not winning” Football Manager player. 
 

They either adamantly stick to one tactic/way of playing because “it worked before” or “it worked for this other team”

or

they change tactic every game, lose, and wonder why they’re losing. 

[S_C]

I absolutely believe that the manner in which he arrived is contributing to the current mood. That isn’t to say the mood would be dramatically different but I absolutely believe that if JL/BT had been more honest, if they’d thanked Pearson for his work in righting the ship and stated Manning is a promising young coach who will need time and understanding to adapt to the Championship, I think plenty would be more forgiving.

Everyone knew the top 6 squad stuff was nonsense, I’m not implying fans swallowed it and are now confused why we aren’t 5th, but they massively fumbled both Pearson's exit (in creating a false narrative about someone who had been hugely media savvy in the run up to his departure) and Manning’s appointment. It left a sour taste in a fanbase already sceptical of the hierarchy, whilst lumping Manning in their corner as their man. It created undue pressure. Had they not, I think for some the tone shifts to ‘we’ve had some good performances, look at Watford, look at Southampton, a nice win over PL West Ham, there are signs of potential, but he needs to improve if he’s going to take us forward' rather than ‘out of his depth, get rid.’

I do get the criticism regarding trying to impose his style of play on a set of players that aren’t suited to it, but managers come in with their own ideas and methods. He isn’t going to play the same style/system as his predecessor, and I think 10/15 games is probably around the mark you’d realise what you want to do might not work. It’s all well and good criticising that he isn’t being flexible but you don't get the green light to implement your methods, struggle for 4 games, and then revert to what the bloke who just got fired was doing. Clearly it will take time, either for it to work or realise it isn’t. Even if its acknowledged that the players don't quite fit, that must be known prior to appointment, otherwise BT/JL sat in an interview with LM and said 'What we're looking for is exactly how we're playing now..'

His first 10 games were W4 D3 L3. I’d say that’s pretty fine and argue, actually, that he’s therefore had 15 games to consider what he’s trying to do might be too much too soon. For what it’s worth, we’ve had 14 games between 1st Jan and 2nd Mar, several against PL teams, including an ET and demoralising penalties loss. That’s a lot of games, many against superior opposition. Though I don’t condone it and acknowledge its dangers, there’s been an air throughout that we’ll finish mid table. It's his responsibility to manage that of course, but it isnt hard to see how complacency and fatigue, both physically and mentally, can set in.

As has been said elsewhere, poor and lose to Swansea and the club are staring down both barrels. I can’t help but feel, though, that whilst both Pearson and Manning had their challenges, Pearson’s were used to excuse him whereas Manning’s are brushed aside.

Edited March 7 by S_C

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, S_C said:

I can’t help but feel, though, that whilst both Pearson and Manning had their challenges, Pearson’s were used to excuse him whereas Manning’s are brushed aside.

What are the comparative “challenges” you see that should’ve resulted in equal treatment?

For me, Nige inherited a mess and therefore needed a period of time to reset the club.

Liam took over a club in a “healthy state” - BT:

”best squad in a long time, well contracted, only 3 OOC in the summer”

In fairness he did say “when fit”.  Although we have seen a few more creep in over recent weeks, they’ve been spread across the positions, so he hasn’t had to play players out of position.

Depth has been an issue for both, but we are then back to budgets!

FWIW I don’t think Manning is shit, there are things I like about the way he’s done things.  But just too many areas I’m not convinced by.  I didn’t like everything Nige did either.

 

 

[Colemanballs]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

What are the comparative “challenges” you see that should’ve resulted in equal treatment?

For me, Nige inherited a mess and therefore needed a period of time to reset the club.

Liam took over a club in a “healthy state” - BT:

”best squad in a long time, well contracted, only 3 OOC in the summer”

In fairness he did say “when fit”.  Although we have seen a few more creep in over recent weeks, they’ve been spread across the positions, so he hasn’t had to play players out of position.

Depth has been an issue for both, but we are then back to budgets!

FWIW I don’t think Manning is shit, there are things I like about the way he’s done things.  But just too many areas I’m not convinced by.  I didn’t like everything Nige did either.

 

 

You have been sucked into a Manning vs Pearson debate which is a (deliberate) distraction from the issue at hand, namely whether Manning should be given more time. What Pearson did or not do and what challenges he faced are irrelevant to the decision we are faced with now which I think boils down to how one answers the following questions. 

• Is the current squad suited to the style of play Manning prefers? My opinion: No. I think pretty much everyone agrees on this whether in the pro or anti Manning camps.
• Will Manning change style to a more pragmatic approach to suit the squad? My opinion: No. He has made it abundantly clear that he is wedded to this possession football.
• Can the current squad be easily transformed (bearing in mind our likely budget) into a squad that is suited to the style of play Manning prefers? My opinion: No. The squad has been built to play a fast, counterattacking style of play, the antithesis of the possession based style Manning favours. Transitioning to such a style would require a significant revamp of the existing squad requiring serious investment and excellent transfer dealings.
• Is the style of play Manning prefers likely to see us challenging for promotion? My opinion: No. To work, possession based football requires that you have players who are significantly better than the opposition. I cannot think of a single club that has been promoted from the Championship playing possession based football that has not had the benefit of parachute payments. Of the clubs that have not had the benefit of parachute payments that have been promoted from the Championship, they have generally played some kind of pragmatic style.
• Is the style of play Manning prefers likely to see us playing more attractive football? My opinion: No. I find all that sideways passing tedious. I appreciate that many appreciate that style of football though.

I don't like to see anyone fired, but based on my answers to the questions, I believe he should go now. Otherwise, the very real fear is that we waste substantial money rebuilding the squad over the summer and at best end up mid table and at worst are in a relegation battle. Obviously, my answers are all opinions and it may be that others would answer yes to some or all of them and therefore come to a different conclusion. Based on the evidence we have before us though, it is difficult for me to see how they would do so.

[Simon bristol]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

What are the comparative “challenges” you see that should’ve resulted in equal treatment?

For me, Nige inherited a mess and therefore needed a period of time to reset the club.

Liam took over a club in a “healthy state” - BT:

”best squad in a long time, well contracted, only 3 OOC in the summer”

In fairness he did say “when fit”.  Although we have seen a few more creep in over recent weeks, they’ve been spread across the positions, so he hasn’t had to play players out of position.

Depth has been an issue for both, but we are then back to budgets!

FWIW I don’t think Manning is shit, there are things I like about the way he’s done things.  But just too many areas I’m not convinced by.  I didn’t like everything Nige did either.

 

 

I think we can discard anything bt or the lansdowns have to say about the quality of the squad, seeing as they were around to some degree when the crap squad was built in the first place, and are trying to get their propaganda out to justify their own positions! 
 

i have to say that manning was really let down in january, and the marquee signing he wanted came in and has contributed basically nothing. His possession tactics will only work with good players who are good on the ball, and losing twine, not having bird come in straight away, not signing the striker but adding mabude, has been a disaster. 
 

having said that, losing against the physical sides every game while playing the same way is very poor, what he thought would work this time is beyond me, though its not as if this hasnt been a problem for a while,, the squad just isnt up to those sort of challenges.

[Capman]

7 hours ago, reddogkev said:

So, Manning is not a coach I would have hired and its fair to say he's been a mixed bag so far.  Some great wins, good cup performances and already has a string of crap losses to his name.  He seems to have a lack of consistency at the moment.  

But looking at things in a different way, with this being his first stint at Championship football and the fact he's young and inexperienced, he's bound to be developing and should be much better next season.  What are the chances of him being the right man to drive the club on?

I remain confident that If we approach the remaining ten games like last night, we'll still be in the Championship, although we need to beat Swansea on Sunday to ease the concern.

When it comes to Manning, right now, I want him to show more passion and develop some character, and after a defeat, take the loss on the chin, admit his own mistakes, and stand up for the team no matter what.

For me context is everything. Those who say we need to ‘move on’ are missing the point. 
Pearson was fired because he was an experienced manager prepared to speak footballing ‘truth’ to an establishment who did not want to listen as it was not something they were wanting to hear. 
I agree, Manning is inexperienced and should normally be given more time. Problem is, if he is and by some miracle learns lots and learns it fast he will simply be an experienced manager who speaks truth to an establishment who do not want to hear it. The outcome of that is likely to simply be Deja vu. 
Unfortunately I think we have an establishment who are unprepared to face the challenging nature of climbing out of the championship and until that changes it really doesn’t matter who is in the head coach seat. The club just does not have the ambition. 
 

[ENOUGH]

More time F.F.S

We have lost our last 4 games; We have only won 2 league games this year...........WHY IS HE STILL HERE?

[W-S-M Seagull]

6 hours ago, S_C said:

I absolutely believe that the manner in which he arrived is contributing to the current mood. That isn’t to say the mood would be dramatically different but I absolutely believe that if JL/BT had been more honest, if they’d thanked Pearson for his work in righting the ship and stated Manning is a promising young coach who will need time and understanding to adapt to the Championship, I think plenty would be more forgiving.

Everyone knew the top 6 squad stuff was nonsense, I’m not implying fans swallowed it and are now confused why we aren’t 5th, but they massively fumbled both Pearson's exit (in creating a false narrative about someone who had been hugely media savvy in the run up to his departure) and Manning’s appointment. It left a sour taste in a fanbase already sceptical of the hierarchy, whilst lumping Manning in their corner as their man. It created undue pressure. Had they not, I think for some the tone shifts to ‘we’ve had some good performances, look at Watford, look at Southampton, a nice win over PL West Ham, there are signs of potential, but he needs to improve if he’s going to take us forward' rather than ‘out of his depth, get rid.’

I do get the criticism regarding trying to impose his style of play on a set of players that aren’t suited to it, but managers come in with their own ideas and methods. He isn’t going to play the same style/system as his predecessor, and I think 10/15 games is probably around the mark you’d realise what you want to do might not work. It’s all well and good criticising that he isn’t being flexible but you don't get the green light to implement your methods, struggle for 4 games, and then revert to what the bloke who just got fired was doing. Clearly it will take time, either for it to work or realise it isn’t. Even if its acknowledged that the players don't quite fit, that must be known prior to appointment, otherwise BT/JL sat in an interview with LM and said 'What we're looking for is exactly how we're playing now..'

His first 10 games were W4 D3 L3. I’d say that’s pretty fine and argue, actually, that he’s therefore had 15 games to consider what he’s trying to do might be too much too soon. For what it’s worth, we’ve had 14 games between 1st Jan and 2nd Mar, several against PL teams, including an ET and demoralising penalties loss. That’s a lot of games, many against superior opposition. Though I don’t condone it and acknowledge its dangers, there’s been an air throughout that we’ll finish mid table. It's his responsibility to manage that of course, but it isnt hard to see how complacency and fatigue, both physically and mentally, can set in.

As has been said elsewhere, poor and lose to Swansea and the club are staring down both barrels. I can’t help but feel, though, that whilst both Pearson and Manning had their challenges, Pearson’s were used to excuse him whereas Manning’s are brushed aside.

You're making this a Manning Vs Pearson debate in order to distract from the current situation which is 4 losses in a row and 23 points from 21 games. If any manager delivered that sort of record then the mood is going to be exactly the same. 

Personally I can't see any situation where a 'give him time' with a squad already good enough for top 10 would have people be forgiven of our regression. 

Manning has shown absolutely nothing that even with time, he'll come good. 

You mention about excuses for Pearson but then 90% of your post is excuses for Manning. 

 

[Barrs Court Red]

23 minutes ago, Capman said:

. The club just does not have the ambition. 
 

Why would it? It’s up for sale, there’s no point in doing much more than keeping the lights on at it shows, both on and off the field at the moment. 

[TV Tom]

6 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

You're making this a Manning Vs Pearson debate in order to distract from the current situation which is 4 losses in a row and 23 points from 21 games. If any manager delivered that sort of record then the mood is going to be exactly the same. 

Personally I can't see any situation where a 'give him time' with a squad already good enough for top 10 would have people be forgiven of our regression. 

Manning has shown absolutely nothing that even with time, he'll come good. 

You mention about excuses for Pearson but then 90% of your post is excuses for Manning. 

 

Can't remember Pearson getting the same stick when he went 14 odd games without a home win

[One Team]

More time to develop as a coach? Quite possibly but the way it’s going not at our expense!

Sunday is last chance saloon for me. He needs a positive performance and a win. Lose again and Ashton Gate I would’ve thought will have seen enough. 

[Shauntaylor85]

8 hours ago, reddogkev said:

So, Manning is not a coach I would have hired and its fair to say he's been a mixed bag so far.  Some great wins, good cup performances and already has a string of crap losses to his name.  He seems to have a lack of consistency at the moment.  

But looking at things in a different way, with this being his first stint at Championship football and the fact he's young and inexperienced, he's bound to be developing and should be much better next season.  What are the chances of him being the right man to drive the club on?

I remain confident that If we approach the remaining ten games like last night, we'll still be in the Championship, although we need to beat Swansea on Sunday to ease the concern.

When it comes to Manning, right now, I want him to show more passion and develop some character, and after a defeat, take the loss on the chin, admit his own mistakes, and stand up for the team no matter what.

Manning is another LJ. All about him and throws players under the bus rather than take responsibility. He needs to go, hes not good enough for what we require and as DaveFevs said is going against what he said were his fundamentals at the outset. 

[redsquirrel]

if we could get someone like warnock or mccarthy in for 6 months in a new role such as head of all playing operations to teach bt and manning the basics then let him stay and give him a chance,same with bt but if he wont acknowledge he too is out of his depth then they both need to be replaced as a unit either for a manager or 2 experienced individuals who can execute their roles properly

[W-S-M Seagull]

29 minutes ago, TV Tom said:

Can't remember Pearson getting the same stick when he went 14 odd games without a home win

Don't be an ostrich Tom. Different situations. 

[IAmNick]

2 hours ago, Colemanballs said:

You have been sucked into a Manning vs Pearson debate which is a (deliberate) distraction from the issue at hand, namely whether Manning should be given more time. What Pearson did or not do and what challenges he faced are irrelevant to the decision we are faced with now which I think boils down to how one answers the following questions. 

• Is the current squad suited to the style of play Manning prefers? My opinion: No. I think pretty much everyone agrees on this whether in the pro or anti Manning camps.
• Will Manning change style to a more pragmatic approach to suit the squad? My opinion: No. He has made it abundantly clear that he is wedded to this possession football.
• Can the current squad be easily transformed (bearing in mind our likely budget) into a squad that is suited to the style of play Manning prefers? My opinion: No. The squad has been built to play a fast, counterattacking style of play, the antithesis of the possession based style Manning favours. Transitioning to such a style would require a significant revamp of the existing squad requiring serious investment and excellent transfer dealings.
• Is the style of play Manning prefers likely to see us challenging for promotion? My opinion: No. To work, possession based football requires that you have players who are significantly better than the opposition. I cannot think of a single club that has been promoted from the Championship playing possession based football that has not had the benefit of parachute payments. Of the clubs that have not had the benefit of parachute payments that have been promoted from the Championship, they have generally played some kind of pragmatic style.
• Is the style of play Manning prefers likely to see us playing more attractive football? My opinion: No. I find all that sideways passing tedious. I appreciate that many appreciate that style of football though.

I don't like to see anyone fired, but based on my answers to the questions, I believe he should go now. Otherwise, the very real fear is that we waste substantial money rebuilding the squad over the summer and at best end up mid table and at worst are in a relegation battle. Obviously, my answers are all opinions and it may be that others would answer yes to some or all of them and therefore come to a different conclusion. Based on the evidence we have before us though, it is difficult for me to see how they would do so.

Good post and I largely agree. However - is the real question whether we have appetite (as fans) for a rebuild or not?

We've been told this is the way the club will now play, so in theory even if Manning goes the next person is likely to run into the exact same problems. Maybe they'll be better at meeting in the middle, but regardless they'll need a new squad to match this style of football we apparently want.

In wanting to replace him, we're really hoping the club change strategy and appoint someone who will play a style that suits our players. In theory that should be very unlikely based on what the club have said 

So I guess if Manning goes, we're looking at a rebuild regardless. So it comes down to whether he's the right man to do that - and the stuff about the style not matching and the fact he'll need to rebuild is irrelevant?

Is the real question here - do you agree with the current style of play the club are trying to implement? Everything else is a factor of that.

[Sir Geoff]

3 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

Good post and I largely agree. However - is the real question whether we have appetite (as fans) for a rebuild or not?

We've been told this is the way the club will now play, so in theory even if Manning goes the next person is likely to run into the exact same problems. Maybe they'll be better at meeting in the middle, but regardless they'll need a new squad to match this style of football we apparently want.

In wanting to replace him, we're really hoping the club change strategy and appoint someone who will play a style that suits our players. In theory that should be very unlikely based on what the club have said 

So I guess if Manning goes, we're looking at a rebuild regardless. So it comes down to whether he's the right man to do that - and the stuff about the style not matching and the fact he'll need to rebuild is irrelevant?

Is the real question here - do you agree with the current style of play the club are trying to implement? Everything else is a factor of that.

The comments made about a style of play was made by Tinnion whilst Pearson was still here.

They then hired a manager that was alien to that style of play.

[IAmNick]

4 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

The comments made about a style of play was made by Tinnion whilst Pearson was still here.

They then hired a manager that was alien to that style of play.

I think it was the opposite. In the Joe Simms interview JL implied (or it sounded it to me) that we weren't playing the way the club wanted/expected.

The fact they then hired a manger with a very different style backs that up imo.

[Sir Geoff]

Just now, IAmNick said:

I think it was the opposite. In the Joe Simms interview JL implied (or it sounded it to me) that we weren't playing the way the club wanted/expected.

The fact they then hired a manger with a very different style backs that up imo.

You may well be right, but I thought I'd heard Tinnion talk about it earlier than that and thought that Pearson alluded to it in an interview a while back.

[SecretSam]

As others have pointed out, part of the problem with Manning is he is inexperienced. He's gone in, tried to change everything from day one. You don't do that, you assess the current situation, the resources that you have and then, aligned with the objectives you've been set, establish a plan. You may have an ultimate goal to play in a certain way, but you bring that in as and when the circumstances suit.

An experienced DoF would have helped, a lot. I think Manning has potential, but he needs someone to advise him, to help him reflect.

[IAmNick]

1 minute ago, Sir Geoff said:

You may well be right, but I thought I'd heard Tinnion talk about it earlier than that and thought that Pearson alluded to it in an interview a while back.

Yeah you're right Tinnion did as well I think while Pearson was here. Confusing regardless!

[1960maaan]

24 minutes ago, TV Tom said:

Can't remember Pearson getting the same stick when he went 14 odd games without a home win

I seem to remember some rumblings , but wasn't that during his early days as permanent Boss ?
Just after over seeing 14 departures , bringing in 4 . 
Because of the situation many fans were ok with Pearson getting time. It wasn't even just a shed load of OOC players and reducing the wage bill through necessity , the medical and coaching staff was rebuilt . There were a lot of moving parts.
Manning has come into a good situation for a new boss. 
Squad recovering health & availability .
Very good levels of fitness.
Good atmosphere and bond through the team. 
A decent squad and mix of players. 
There were infact none of the usual problems faced by new Managers, they wanted taking to the next level, some improvement on the pitch. 

This is my problem , he has seemingly been brought up with a single philosophy . He is so wedded to this he always wants to play that way and is convinced the plan is right.
This is fine to a point .
Take the Ipswich game;
He looks at Ipswich, how they play and set up . Makes a plan for that and is happy. The Plan seems to work , and now here's the problem. We are facing another team and another Manager who sees "HIS" plan isn't working so changes things. All of a sudden our plan isn't working, but Manning knows his plan WAS working and so sticks to it , because the Plan was working.

I criticised Pearson for everything from selection to set up to Subs at times. But he more than once made very early Subs because he got things wrong, that was because he was experienced and big enough to take it on the chin. I don't see that in Manning's make up.

Taking the Manning V Pearson thing out of it . 
Manning's inability to adjust is a worry, his willingness to blame everyone else is a worry , that he seems to get out thought with "in game tactics" is a worry , the fact the players look less fit than when he came in is a worry, the fact he seems to be playing players with injuries is a worry.  You can add we struggle against the same tactics week in week out. Because we do better against more open teams isn't an excuse. 

As it stands I can't think of many reasons he shouldn't be sacked, apart from it doesn't show the decision makers in a good light. We have a few games against teams that will be a little more open, so we could pick up points Vs Swansea , WBA , Leicester , Plymouth & Sunderland . 6 points will not only probably see us safe, it will be enough to buy time for Manning and that add more worries.

Will he choose the players we bring in, will BT give him the players, as he will be effectively be on borrowed time. 
With a limited budget I'm not sure even if we spend £10M on this ( big , strong , quick , effective , potent ) striker we are after , will make any difference to the team . 
We buy a target man who can hold the ball up for runners, how does that fit with Manning ball ??

We are in a mess of our own making. Not Mannings fault he is here, but clearly not a good fit and incapable of being able to adapt , which doesn't look good for a young Coach. 

[Robbored]

1 hour ago, mason said:

More time F.F.S

We have lost our last 4 games; We have only won 2 league games this year...........WHY IS HE STILL HERE?

When SL was in charge he’d stick with the manager even after a run a defeats - LJ is a perfect example of that and I assume that although he’s largely retired he still makes the final decision. Whether he’s influenced by John Boy about the managers future is anyone’s guess tho.

[bpexile]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

What are the comparative “challenges” you see that should’ve resulted in equal treatment?

For me, Nige inherited a mess and therefore needed a period of time to reset the club.

Liam took over a club in a “healthy state” - BT:

”best squad in a long time, well contracted, only 3 OOC in the summer”

In fairness he did say “when fit”.  Although we have seen a few more creep in over recent weeks, they’ve been spread across the positions, so he hasn’t had to play players out of position.

Depth has been an issue for both, but we are then back to budgets!

FWIW I don’t think Manning is shit, there are things I like about the way he’s done things.  But just too many areas I’m not convinced by.  I didn’t like everything Nige did either.

 

 

As usual, fair comments Fevs, thankyou 

[RollsRoyce]

He was hired to turn the current squad into promotion challengers, he has turned us into relegation fodder. 

Based on what I have seen, you are gambling with relegation next season if you keep him. He looks and sounds completely lost. 

I am not sure what the opposite of new manager bounce is, maybe new manager droop. 

If there is a general feeling of malaise, and a ground empty at full time is not a good look, and when the fanbase lose faith, it takes a huge amount to regain it. 

Unfortunately, he is not the only issue, but no matter the volume of off-record press briefings and media manipulation and spin from the club can put lipstick on this pig. 

 

[One Team]

1 minute ago, RollsRoyce said:

He was hired to turn the current squad into promotion challengers, he has turned us into relegation fodder. 

Based on what I have seen, you are gambling with relegation next season if you keep him. He looks and sounds completely lost. 

I am not sure what the opposite of new manager bounce is, maybe new manager droop. 

If there is a general feeling of malaise, and a ground empty at full time is not a good look, and when the fanbase lose faith, it takes a huge amount to regain it. 

Unfortunately, he is not the only issue, but no matter the volume of off-record press briefings and media manipulation and spin from the club can put lipstick on this pig. 

 

Some great points there. This will certainly make the fan fare of season ticket sales for next season a tough one. 

[Davefevs]

@Colemanballs I’m beginning to think that’s the only thing they have left in their argument, to keep dragging it back to Pearson.  I rarely see anything detailing the pros of Manning.  In fact, I reckon I give more pros of Manning than they do!

1 hour ago, TV Tom said:

Can't remember Pearson getting the same stick when he went 14 odd games without a home win

guess why he didn’t, because into 21/22 he won games away.  Ultimately it matters not at which venue younein, but that you do win.  Oh, and he did get stick, tonnes of it.  Short memories.  It was probably the foundation of “Nige-out” at the time.

35 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

Good post and I largely agree. However - is the real question whether we have appetite (as fans) for a rebuild or not?

We've been told this is the way the club will now play, so in theory even if Manning goes the next person is likely to run into the exact same problems. Maybe they'll be better at meeting in the middle, but regardless they'll need a new squad to match this style of football we apparently want.

In wanting to replace him, we're really hoping the club change strategy and appoint someone who will play a style that suits our players. In theory that should be very unlikely based on what the club have said 

So I guess if Manning goes, we're looking at a rebuild regardless. So it comes down to whether he's the right man to do that - and the stuff about the style not matching and the fact he'll need to rebuild is irrelevant?

Is the real question here - do you agree with the current style of play the club are trying to implement? Everything else is a factor of that.

If they were to replace Manning, there wouldn’t need to be a(nother) rebuild if they got an adaptable manager in.

Without going through all the quotes, they appointed Manning because they thought all modern, progressive, on the grass coaches play high press, forward thinking football.  Possession and winning (MK season 1, Oxford early this season) do not equal high press, forward thinking football.  It’s incredible incompetence they thought that. 

[Silvio Dante]

34 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

Good post and I largely agree. However - is the real question whether we have appetite (as fans) for a rebuild or not?

We've been told this is the way the club will now play, so in theory even if Manning goes the next person is likely to run into the exact same problems. Maybe they'll be better at meeting in the middle, but regardless they'll need a new squad to match this style of football we apparently want.

In wanting to replace him, we're really hoping the club change strategy and appoint someone who will play a style that suits our players. In theory that should be very unlikely based on what the club have said 

So I guess if Manning goes, we're looking at a rebuild regardless. So it comes down to whether he's the right man to do that - and the stuff about the style not matching and the fact he'll need to rebuild is irrelevant?

Is the real question here - do you agree with the current style of play the club are trying to implement? Everything else is a factor of that.

Tbh mate so wouldn’t put too much stock in that. Over the time SL has been here the one main constant has been we look at what someone else is doing and chase that. Luton doing it without funds? We must be able to etc etc

One of, IMO, the reasons we’ve got Manning is as a reaction to a) Whats in vogue (younger coaches with less playing experience) and more specifically, b) What’s happening at Ipswich - with the Lansdowns seeing what their old set up is doing and thinking that they were right after all, so let’s emulate

Mannings playing style is ingrained in the club until the next thing comes along that someone gets success with that SL thinks we can emulate. We get rid of Liam and it’s totally not a factor.

Which again is why you bin him now before he adds loads of players, we get a bloated and misshapen squad and have to sort it out.

2 hours ago, Colemanballs said:

You have been sucked into a Manning vs Pearson debate which is a (deliberate) distraction from the issue at hand, namely whether Manning should be given more time. What Pearson did or not do and what challenges he faced are irrelevant to the decision we are faced with now which I think boils down to how one answers the following questions. 

• Is the current squad suited to the style of play Manning prefers? My opinion: No. I think pretty much everyone agrees on this whether in the pro or anti Manning camps.
• Will Manning change style to a more pragmatic approach to suit the squad? My opinion: No. He has made it abundantly clear that he is wedded to this possession football.
• Can the current squad be easily transformed (bearing in mind our likely budget) into a squad that is suited to the style of play Manning prefers? My opinion: No. The squad has been built to play a fast, counterattacking style of play, the antithesis of the possession based style Manning favours. Transitioning to such a style would require a significant revamp of the existing squad requiring serious investment and excellent transfer dealings.
• Is the style of play Manning prefers likely to see us challenging for promotion? My opinion: No. To work, possession based football requires that you have players who are significantly better than the opposition. I cannot think of a single club that has been promoted from the Championship playing possession based football that has not had the benefit of parachute payments. Of the clubs that have not had the benefit of parachute payments that have been promoted from the Championship, they have generally played some kind of pragmatic style.
• Is the style of play Manning prefers likely to see us playing more attractive football? My opinion: No. I find all that sideways passing tedious. I appreciate that many appreciate that style of football though.

I don't like to see anyone fired, but based on my answers to the questions, I believe he should go now. Otherwise, the very real fear is that we waste substantial money rebuilding the squad over the summer and at best end up mid table and at worst are in a relegation battle. Obviously, my answers are all opinions and it may be that others would answer yes to some or all of them and therefore come to a different conclusion. Based on the evidence we have before us though, it is difficult for me to see how they would do so.

 

13 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

I seem to remember some rumblings , but wasn't that during his early days as permanent Boss ?
Just after over seeing 14 departures , bringing in 4 . 
Because of the situation many fans were ok with Pearson getting time. It wasn't even just a shed load of OOC players and reducing the wage bill through necessity , the medical and coaching staff was rebuilt . There were a lot of moving parts.
Manning has come into a good situation for a new boss. 
Squad recovering health & availability .
Very good levels of fitness.
Good atmosphere and bond through the team. 
A decent squad and mix of players. 
There were infact none of the usual problems faced by new Managers, they wanted taking to the next level, some improvement on the pitch. 

This is my problem , he has seemingly been brought up with a single philosophy . He is so wedded to this he always wants to play that way and is convinced the plan is right.
This is fine to a point .
Take the Ipswich game;
He looks at Ipswich, how they play and set up . Makes a plan for that and is happy. The Plan seems to work , and now here's the problem. We are facing another team and another Manager who sees "HIS" plan isn't working so changes things. All of a sudden our plan isn't working, but Manning knows his plan WAS working and so sticks to it , because the Plan was working.

I criticised Pearson for everything from selection to set up to Subs at times. But he more than once made very early Subs because he got things wrong, that was because he was experienced and big enough to take it on the chin. I don't see that in Manning's make up.

Taking the Manning V Pearson thing out of it . 
Manning's inability to adjust is a worry, his willingness to blame everyone else is a worry , that he seems to get out thought with "in game tactics" is a worry , the fact the players look less fit than when he came in is a worry, the fact he seems to be playing players with injuries is a worry.  You can add we struggle against the same tactics week in week out. Because we do better against more open teams isn't an excuse. 

As it stands I can't think of many reasons he shouldn't be sacked, apart from it doesn't show the decision makers in a good light. We have a few games against teams that will be a little more open, so we could pick up points Vs Swansea , WBA , Leicester , Plymouth & Sunderland . 6 points will not only probably see us safe, it will be enough to buy time for Manning and that add more worries.

Will he choose the players we bring in, will BT give him the players, as he will be effectively be on borrowed time. 
With a limited budget I'm not sure even if we spend £10M on this ( big , strong , quick , effective , potent ) striker we are after , will make any difference to the team . 
We buy a target man who can hold the ball up for runners, how does that fit with Manning ball ??

We are in a mess of our own making. Not Mannings fault he is here, but clearly not a good fit and incapable of being able to adapt , which doesn't look good for a young Coach. 

And these are both excellent posts

[cidered abroad]

9 hours ago, reddogkev said:

So, Manning is not a coach I would have hired and its fair to say he's been a mixed bag so far.  Some great wins, good cup performances and already has a string of crap losses to his name.  He seems to have a lack of consistency at the moment.  

But looking at things in a different way, with this being his first stint at Championship football and the fact he's young and inexperienced, he's bound to be developing and should be much better next season.  What are the chances of him being the right man to drive the club on?

I remain confident that If we approach the remaining ten games like last night, we'll still be in the Championship, although we need to beat Swansea on Sunday to ease the concern.

When it comes to Manning, right now, I want him to show more passion and develop some character, and after a defeat, take the loss on the chin, admit his own mistakes, and stand up for the team no matter what.

He's got about eight weeks to make absolutely certain that we are not relegated. Can he manage 7 or 8 points to guarantee?

I'm doubtful!