Manning's under development, he needs more time

[One Team]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

@Colemanballs I’m beginning to think that’s the only thing they have left in their argument, to keep dragging it back to Pearson.  I rarely see anything detailing the pros of Manning.  In fact, I reckon I give more pros of Manning than they do!

guess why he didn’t, because into 21/22 he won games away.  Ultimately it matters not at which venue younein, but that you do win.  Oh, and he did get stick, tonnes of it.  Short memories.  It was probably the foundation of “Nige-out” at the time.

If they were to replace Manning, there wouldn’t need to be a(nother) rebuild if they got an adaptable manager in.

Without going through all the quotes, they appointed Manning because they thought all modern, progressive, on the grass coaches play high press, forward thinking football.  Possession and winning (MK season 1, Oxford early this season) do not equal high press, forward thinking football.  It’s incredible incompetence they thought that. 

That’s a good point Fevs. If they act now a rebuild isn’t really needed, maybe just a couple of key players. If Manning is given the summer and brings in his own players and fails next season then we really are starting all over again. 

[fisherrich]

I don’t see it as a Manning v Nige debate. The boil needs to be lanced - ie the Lansdowns need to sell up. Getting rid of Manning will make no difference as those 2 Lansdown buffoons will just employ another YES man. No faith in Zippee and Bungle running this football club/aka Bristol Sport.
What I liked about Nige P was his absolute honesty and passion for the football club. What a loss!

[W-S-M Seagull]

16 minutes ago, RollsRoyce said:

He was hired to turn the current squad into promotion challengers, he has turned us into relegation fodder. 

Based on what I have seen, you are gambling with relegation next season if you keep him. He looks and sounds completely lost. 

I am not sure what the opposite of new manager bounce is, maybe new manager droop. 

If there is a general feeling of malaise, and a ground empty at full time is not a good look, and when the fanbase lose faith, it takes a huge amount to regain it. 

Unfortunately, he is not the only issue, but no matter the volume of off-record press briefings and media manipulation and spin from the club can put lipstick on this pig. 

 

New manager bounces usually happen because clubs are underperforming before a new manager comes in. 

We wasn't under performing when Manning came in. After the Wednesday win we were exactly where most thought we would be (2 points off the play offs) 

I think we did have a bounce with Manning but the bounce was that we simply broadly maintained what we were doing previously in terms of results. 

Now Mannings feet are under the table we are now regressing at a worrying rate. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

5 minutes ago, One Team said:

That’s a good point Fevs. If they act now a rebuild isn’t really needed, maybe just a couple of key players. If Manning is given the summer and brings in his own players and fails next season then we really are starting all over again. 

My overriding concern is that if Manning is allowed a summer were going to have half a squad built for Manning ball and half a squad built for a different style. That's why I'm Manning out. Because that smells of relegation. 

Manning was not the right fit from the start but as the club have now learned that the hard way it's best to cut our losses and bring in someone who is more suited to this squad and who can evolve it. 

[Fuber]

8 hours ago, S_C said:

I absolutely believe that the manner in which he arrived is contributing to the current mood. That isn’t to say the mood would be dramatically different but I absolutely believe that if JL/BT had been more honest, if they’d thanked Pearson for his work in righting the ship and stated Manning is a promising young coach who will need time and understanding to adapt to the Championship, I think plenty would be more forgiving.

Everyone knew the top 6 squad stuff was nonsense, I’m not implying fans swallowed it and are now confused why we aren’t 5th, but they massively fumbled both Pearson's exit (in creating a false narrative about someone who had been hugely media savvy in the run up to his departure) and Manning’s appointment. It left a sour taste in a fanbase already sceptical of the hierarchy, whilst lumping Manning in their corner as their man. It created undue pressure. Had they not, I think for some the tone shifts to ‘we’ve had some good performances, look at Watford, look at Southampton, a nice win over PL West Ham, there are signs of potential, but he needs to improve if he’s going to take us forward' rather than ‘out of his depth, get rid.’

I do get the criticism regarding trying to impose his style of play on a set of players that aren’t suited to it, but managers come in with their own ideas and methods. He isn’t going to play the same style/system as his predecessor, and I think 10/15 games is probably around the mark you’d realise what you want to do might not work. It’s all well and good criticising that he isn’t being flexible but you don't get the green light to implement your methods, struggle for 4 games, and then revert to what the bloke who just got fired was doing. Clearly it will take time, either for it to work or realise it isn’t. Even if its acknowledged that the players don't quite fit, that must be known prior to appointment, otherwise BT/JL sat in an interview with LM and said 'What we're looking for is exactly how we're playing now..'

His first 10 games were W4 D3 L3. I’d say that’s pretty fine and argue, actually, that he’s therefore had 15 games to consider what he’s trying to do might be too much too soon. For what it’s worth, we’ve had 14 games between 1st Jan and 2nd Mar, several against PL teams, including an ET and demoralising penalties loss. That’s a lot of games, many against superior opposition. Though I don’t condone it and acknowledge its dangers, there’s been an air throughout that we’ll finish mid table. It's his responsibility to manage that of course, but it isnt hard to see how complacency and fatigue, both physically and mentally, can set in.

As has been said elsewhere, poor and lose to Swansea and the club are staring down both barrels. I can’t help but feel, though, that whilst both Pearson and Manning had their challenges, Pearson’s were used to excuse him whereas Manning’s are brushed aside.

Depends on the period you're comparing.

Manning doesn't exactly have many excuses outside of it not being his squad.

He inherited a strong culture. He inherited a near fully fit squad after players such as Vyner returned from impact injuries. We were in a stable position four points off playoffs.

Outside of the former I can't really think of any that apply to him, that didn't apply to NP also at least, such as dealing with Crayon-boy and Tinns above him, etc.

[BCFC_Dan]

Pearson took 9 points from 14 games during his initial short term contact, yet he was rewarded for that with a 3 year deal. I thought that a daft move at the time, and I still do. He then delivered 2.5 years of largely uninspiring football and mediocre results.

However, he was operating under restricted circumstances and there was, as he saw it, a lot of work to be done to get the club into a shape where it could succeed. I don't know if that means any manager would have to do that work in order to succeed, or if it was work that Pearson created. Nevertheless, he was getting on with it and making slow but steady progress. He had a number of runs of poor form, and also a few periods of personal ill health, but the club stuck by him and let him continue his work.

Then, suddenly, out of nowhere, the club hierarchy decided they didn't like the direction of travel that the club had been on for nearly 3 years and decided to impose a complete stylistic change, under a relatively inexperienced coach. Not only that, but they declared the squad, which was largely built for and by Pearson, and of mid table quality at best, to be capable of finishing in the top 6, something that was self-evidently not true, and did nothing but heap pressure on their new manager.

Personally, I like Manning, and I like the performances I've seen (I only see televised games and the odd away fixture, so I've been lucky in what I've witnessed). I think he's the right man to take the club forward. However, it's pretty obvious that the manner in which decisions have been made has made things about as difficult as possible to achieve success.

I don't hate the Lansdowns, or Brian Tinnion, and both have done plenty of good work, but the decisions taken over the management have been quite ridiculous. It was obvious at every stage what they were going to get from Nigel Pearson. He didn't even deliver particularly good results, and his style of play was well known. If they wanted that style of play, then fine, let him do the job. If they wanted him to steady the ship and build a platform, then fine, sack him in the summer of 2023, or let him run out his contract, then make a change. If they wanted a different style of play or better results, don't appoint the guy with 2 wins in 14 games, who doesn't play how you want to play, in the first place. Whatever the individual merits of Manning and Pearson may be, not one of those decisions really makes any sense.

[exAtyeoMax]

2 hours ago, TV Tom said:

Can't remember Pearson getting the same stick when he went 14 odd games without a home win

I think he did. But I guess the context was different at that time. 

[WeAreThePigs]

I would have more sympathy for manning if he had some in game management - he really needs to learn this if he is going to be a champ manager

[TV Tom]

1 hour ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Don't be an ostrich Tom. Different situations. 

You can dress it up as much as you like but going 14 home games without a win is a horrendous statistic, you need to get your ostrich head out of the sand

[W-S-M Seagull]

4 minutes ago, TV Tom said:

You can dress it up as much as you like but going 14 home games without a win is a horrendous statistic, you need to get your ostrich head out of the sand

Its been explained to you many times Tom. For the final time, completely different circumstances Tom. 

[2015]

I don't really want a coach or manager who is developing whilst being manager at Bristol City. We've done that before, it never works.

Certain clubs suit certain types of Coaches/Manager's. We don't suit this route.

[TV Tom]

Just now, W-S-M Seagull said:

Its been explained to you many times Tom. For the final time, completely different circumstances Tom. 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, i've had enough of this nonsense, i'm getting ready for 10:00 and the Plymouth away tickets, Manning's red 'n white army 

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 minute ago, TV Tom said:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, i've had enough of this nonsense, i'm getting ready for 10:00 and the Plymouth away tickets, Manning's red 'n white army 

You just don't like to hear the truth that Pearson and Manning inherited vastly different squad's because it doesnt fit with your agenda. 

[pillred]

10 minutes ago, BCFC_Dan said:

Pearson took 9 points from 14 games during his initial short term contact, yet he was rewarded for that with a 3 year deal. I thought that a daft move at the time, and I still do. He then delivered 2.5 years of largely uninspiring football and mediocre results.

However, he was operating under restricted circumstances and there was, as he saw it, a lot of work to be done to get the club into a shape where it could succeed. I don't know if that means any manager would have to do that work in order to succeed, or if it was work that Pearson created. Nevertheless, he was getting on with it and making slow but steady progress. He had a number of runs of poor form, and also a few periods of personal ill health, but the club stuck by him and let him continue his work.

Then, suddenly, out of nowhere, the club hierarchy decided they didn't like the direction of travel that the club had been on for nearly 3 years and decided to impose a complete stylistic change, under a relatively inexperienced coach. Not only that, but they declared the squad, which was largely built for and by Pearson, and of mid table quality at best, to be capable of finishing in the top 6, something that was self-evidently not true, and did nothing but heap pressure on their new manager.

Personally, I like Manning, and I like the performances I've seen (I only see televised games and the odd away fixture, so I've been lucky in what I've witnessed). I think he's the right man to take the club forward. However, it's pretty obvious that the manner in which decisions have been made has made things about as difficult as possible to achieve success.

I don't hate the Lansdowns, or Brian Tinnion, and both have done plenty of good work, but the decisions taken over the management have been quite ridiculous. It was obvious at every stage what they were going to get from Nigel Pearson. He didn't even deliver particularly good results, and his style of play was well known. If they wanted that style of play, then fine, let him do the job. If they wanted him to steady the ship and build a platform, then fine, sack him in the summer of 2023, or let him run out his contract, then make a change. If they wanted a different style of play or better results, don't appoint the guy with 2 wins in 14 games, who doesn't play how you want to play, in the first place. Whatever the individual merits of Manning and Pearson may be, not one of those decisions really makes any sense.

I have said on another post-NP did not get particularly good results, now how much of that was down to reducing the wage bill getting rid of the dead wood etc I don't know. I have come in for some stick for even daring to point that out, he was working under some constraints but the way he is mourned on here anyone would think we had been successful and entertaining under his management, well I must have missed that part, as you have pointed out Manning seems to be on a hiding to nothing what frustrates me most is good results and performances followed by disappointment. I personally can see some improvement overall the team look more cohesive but again we have the curse of Bristol City with injuries which have impacted our progress, all this harking back to the "good old days" under Pearson is getting us nowhere. 

[AshtonGreat]

2 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

You're making this a Manning Vs Pearson debate in order to distract from the current situation which is 4 losses in a row and 23 points from 21 games. If any manager delivered that sort of record then the mood is going to be exactly the same. 

Personally I can't see any situation where a 'give him time' with a squad already good enough for top 10 would have people be forgiven of our regression. 

Manning has shown absolutely nothing that even with time, he'll come good. 

You mention about excuses for Pearson but then 90% of your post is excuses for Manning. 

 

Pearson managed 12 points from his first 15 games?

[TV Tom]

1 minute ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

You just don't like to hear the truth that Pearson and Manning inherited vastly different squad's because it doesnt fit with your agenda. 

It's nothing about "the truth" I just hold a different opinion to you.

[W-S-M Seagull]

6 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Pearson managed 12 points from his first 15 games?

This season (which is the only fair comparison) Pearson managed 18 points from 14 games. 

[Galley is our king]

3 minutes ago, pillred said:

I have said on another post-NP did not get particularly good results, now how much of that was down to reducing the wage bill getting rid of the dead wood etc I don't know. I have come in for some stick for even daring to point that out, he was working under some constraints but the way he is mourned on here anyone would think we had been successful and entertaining under his management, well I must have missed that part, as you have pointed out Manning seems to be on a hiding to nothing what frustrates me most is good results and performances followed by disappointment. I personally can see some improvement overall the team look more cohesive but again we have the curse of Bristol City with injuries which have impacted our progress, all this harking back to the "good old days" under Pearson is getting us nowhere. 

If people are told the truth, it helps but..... the rationale for sacking Pearson is just a tissue of LIES.

People who deliberately lie, lose respect.

When those same lies actually make us worse, you end up where we currently are. 

Now, JL and BT can not expect any, or little respect.

They also seem not to be able to do anything about it nor indeed put out any comms (another lie which they said would improve).

They are in a hole of their own making.

 

[TV Tom]

5 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Pearson managed 12 points from his first 15 games?

Ssssshh, get your tin hat ready because there are many, many, many, many reasons for that don't you know

[Galley is our king]

8 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Pearson managed 12 points from his first 15 games?

Context, context, CONTEXT!!!

[W-S-M Seagull]

4 minutes ago, Galley is our king said:

Context, context, CONTEXT!!!

They only bring up this incredibly flawed arguement to try to divert attention away from our current really bad form. 

[1960maaan]

5 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Pearson managed 12 points from his first 15 games?

Before that we got 9 from 14 games and 6 defeats on the trot . Do you think there might be some context needed here ?

Pearson inherited a shitshow with no transfer window. 10 points away from PO's -13 GD 

Manning inherited a reasonable team , window approaching ,5 points from the Playoffs. -1 GD

 

[bearded_red]

If your only defence of Liam Manning is that we’re not doing as badly as when Pearson took over that complete omnishambles I’d suggest that in itself speaks volumes for what a job he’s doing.

[RollsRoyce]

13 minutes ago, TV Tom said:

You can dress it up as much as you like but going 14 home games without a win is a horrendous statistic, you need to get your ostrich head out of the sand

Let's talk about Manning. Pearson has gone, and Manning being unsuited has nothing to do with Pearson. Two hugely different scenarios.

So, why did we appoint Manning? What are the attributes you see, with the squad that we have, that suit the way Manning wants to play? What youth players have been developed under Manning? What players have improved under Manning? Why, when Luton and possibly Ipswich get promoted to the Prem playing a certain way, with a budget closer to ours than say Leeds/Burnley/Leicester do you think the Manning 's approach to playing football is superior to that of McKenna and Edwards? How many players does Manning need to sign? Particularly when 2 players already signed, we tried to sign before he got here, a powerful forward we tried to sign before he got here, and the number 10 position, filled by Scott and not replaced, would have been filled if the money was available. So we already know the squad for next year, bar Twine (or his replacement) and a Semenyo replacement. Is that enough to give Manning the players he would want to play his way? Is that way of playing as. a non-parachute payment club going to bring success? As we would be the first club to do that, nothing like being first of course, but it does not follow any other path to success by any other club. 

In any case, when, who, has said we are now going on a different path? The club have never said it, fans have created this narrative to explain Mannings's failure. 

In my view, the club did not do their due diligence and hired a Russel Martin replacement, when what we needed was a McKenna or Edwards if we wanted to utilise better the players at our disposal. 

It will be faster and more economical to cut our losses with Manning now before we enter into a blind faith, or an attempt at face-saving , path that will be destructive and carries a high risk of relegation next season. 

Whilst 10 games left can change the mood and take Manning into next season with positive energy, something stupendous will need to happen to lift what would appear to be increasing doubts. An empty ground at full-time for a derby I had never seen before, and the atmosphere was the worst I can recall for a derby. There is no faith or belief. Those are worrying traits. Anger would be better, really, as it shows passion. But people have stopped caring. As it is a lost cause. 

So, please, try and explain what it is that you believe Manning has that I and maybe a few others are struggling to grasp. 

[BrizzleRed]

59 minutes ago, fisherrich said:

I don’t see it as a Manning v Nige debate. The boil needs to be lanced - ie the Lansdowns need to sell up. Getting rid of Manning will make no difference as those 2 Lansdown buffoons will just employ another YES man. No faith in Zippee and Bungle running this football club/aka Bristol Sport.
What I liked about Nige P was his absolute honesty and passion for the football club. What a loss!

That’s the depressing thing, just pushing out LM is unlikely to make much, if any difference on its own.  They’ll just go appoint another completely unsuitable person.

For me, any lingering hope that SL had it in him to run a successful football club has gone after this latest debacle.

The best news I can hear is there’s someone in serious talks to buy this club (not invest, but buy out completely).  That’s the only way I can see us potentially moving forward, as any trust I had in Lansdown has completely gone.  

He’s got us in a massive rut and is clearly unwilling, or incapable of getting us out of it.  He’s had more than enough time with his toy and proved he doesn’t have a clue what to do with it.  We need a new and clear vision at the top and it really can’t come quick enough.

I wouldn’t trust SL, the Crayola Kid and Tecknic Sid to run a piss up in a brewery, let alone our club.

[Sheltons Army]

28 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

You just don't like to hear the truth that Pearson and Manning inherited vastly different squad's because it doesnt fit with your agenda. 

It’s called doubling down Gull

The loudest anti Pearson screamers are feeling a bit vulnerable 

[TDarwall]

I'm OK with us giving Manning more time. Not because he's wowed me so far, but he's young, it's not impossible he'll learn & improve. There have been good things but admittedly far more bad things.

We could have sacked a young Joe  Jordan  after his 1st full season in charge, he'd taken us backwards (reached the POs the season before) & possibly only survived because of the cup run.

[W-S-M Seagull]

33 minutes ago, pillred said:

I have said on another post-NP did not get particularly good results, now how much of that was down to reducing the wage bill getting rid of the dead wood etc I don't know. I have come in for some stick for even daring to point that out, he was working under some constraints but the way he is mourned on here anyone would think we had been successful and entertaining under his management, well I must have missed that part, as you have pointed out Manning seems to be on a hiding to nothing what frustrates me most is good results and performances followed by disappointment. I personally can see some improvement overall the team look more cohesive but again we have the curse of Bristol City with injuries which have impacted our progress, all this harking back to the "good old days" under Pearson is getting us nowhere. 

More cohesive? Players have been arguing with each other on the pitch in recent games.

[pillred]

14 minutes ago, Galley is our king said:

If people are told the truth, it helps but..... the rationale for sacking Pearson is just a tissue of LIES.

People who deliberately lie, lose respect.

When those same lies actually make us worse, you end up where we currently are. 

Now, JL and BT can not expect any, or little respect.

They also seem not to be able to do anything about it nor indeed put out any comms (another lie which they said would improve).

They are in a hole of their own making.

 

It was a bit of an unnecessary mess wasn't it, there does seem to be a common denominator in all this and I'm not sure if just changing the manager will ever improve it, I just wish there was less negativity towards Mannings's appointment as he hasn't exactly had a lot of luck as far as injuries and recruitment have gone, I also agree we were not told the real reason Pearson was sacked personally I think it was a combination of poor results, his overall health, and of course him calling a Spade a Spade.

[pillred]

4 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

More cohesive? Players have been arguing with each other on the pitch in recent games.

By cohesive I mean in the pattern of play I thought for long periods against Ipswich we played well as a team and looked to have a good gameplan, the same against Southampton that is the most frustrating thing such good bits followed by dross, and as for the arguing I have seen Man City players arguing with each other it happens a lot, maybe it shows the players are as disappointed as us and actually care.