The End of the Beginning and the Beginning of the end

[Numero Uno]

14 hours ago, AshtonGreat said:

 

I think if we'd lost every game under his tenure, then I'd be calling for his head right now. The fact is, though, there have been glimpses of good quality - and i'm curious to see what he could do given a transfer window

We haven’t lost all the games, just 48% of them. If Leicester beat us he’s lost HALF of them spanning half a season. If that’s not a massive concern I don’t know what is tbh.

[W-S-M Seagull]

15 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

As has been pointed out on another thread, Manning's points total to date is almost identical to what Pearson achieved in his final run (the same number) of games.

And as for Conway, as the old saying goes, form is temporary, class is permanent. So i doubt his lack of goals in half a season will make much difference to his overall value.

Give it up mate, this is getting desperate. 

The only fair comparison is this season and Pearson had 1.29 ppg and Manning has had 1.13. Pearson achieved a higher ppg with lesser squad availability. 

In Pearsons time here he achieved a total of 1.20 ppg under far more challenging circumstances. 

You are aware that Conways contract is expiring in just over a year? So this summer will be our last chance to get maximum value. 

[AshtonGreat]

23 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Give it up mate, this is getting desperate. 

The only fair comparison is this season and Pearson had 1.29 ppg and Manning has had 1.13. Pearson achieved a higher ppg with lesser squad availability. 

In Pearsons time here he achieved a total of 1.20 ppg under far more challenging circumstances. 

You are aware that Conways contract is expiring in just over a year? So this summer will be our last chance to get maximum value. 

To be honest, I'd rather have neither in charge

[Mr Popodopolous]

Another way of looking at it is..

Position Inherited

1.4 PPG, 40% Win Ratio (League)

Position 'progressed' to

1.13 PPG, 30.43% Win Ratio (League)

19.28%

23.92%

[OliOTIB]

It would make sense to change now before the end of the season. Would rather the new boss has a few games after said ‘vigorous process’ and then have full pre season.

Max Bird is probably kicking himself currently 

[Steve Watts]

1 hour ago, Monkeh said:

I hated sods time here some of the worst football on show for me and was as bad as tp, but he did alot behind closed doors,

Manning currently is worse, if he'd taken over a team in the bottom and all the problems mcinnes and sod and even Pearson had, we'd be a little more forgiving, but he didn't 

Manning is doing a lot behind closed doors as well....sadly none of it is positive and the only thing this whole failed experiment has succeeded in is creating division between fans and the club and between fans and other fans. 

Supporting this club has never felt so difficult as it does now.  Usually you can find some things to be positive about. Youth coming through, players playing with pride even if they're not getting the rub of the green etc, but right now there's literally nothing.  Zero. Zilch. Nada.  And it's bloody soul destroying it really is. 

I've given over 40 years of my life to supporting this club.  Others have given even more. But I have never in those 40+ years felt as despondent as I do now.

Edited March 20 by Steve Watts

[Selred]

51 minutes ago, Steve Watts said:

Manning is doing a lot behind closed doors as well....sadly none of it is positive and the only thing this whole failed experiment has succeeded in is creating division between fans and the club and between fans and other fans. 

Supporting this club has never felt so difficult as it does now.  Usually you can find some things to be positive about. Youth coming through, players playing with pride even if they're not getting the rub of the green etc, but right now there's literally nothing.  Zero. Zilch. Nada.  And it's bloody soul destroying it really is. 

I've given over 40 years of my life to supporting this club.  Others have given even more. But I have never in those 40+ years felt as despondent as I do now.

I personally think you're a bit short in the memory.

We are mid table, yes going backwards, but highly unlikely to be relegated. It's not like the days under S'OD / McInnes of late.

We have a squad who played with pride earlier in the season. Again, not like the massive wages we had on dead wood earlier in the season.

We have multiple academy players in the squad, it's not like under Gary where we didn't have any youth.

Even as a squad, we are fairly young. It's not like we have lots of older players on longer contracts.

Yes Manning-ball is dire. Tinnion and JL are out of their depth. But there's also so much potential here, as seen in glimpses under Nigel.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, Selred said:

I personally think you're a bit short in the memory.

We are mid table, yes going backwards, but highly unlikely to be relegated. It's not like the days under S'OD / McInnes of late.

We have a squad who played with pride earlier in the season. Again, not like the massive wages we had on dead wood earlier in the season.

We have multiple academy players in the squad, it's not like under Gary where we didn't have any youth.

Even as a squad, we are fairly young. It's not like we have lots of older players on longer contracts.

Yes Manning-ball is dire. Tinnion and JL are out of their depth. But there's also so much potential here, as seen in glimpses under Nigel.

 

If we make the correct changes and quick it still seems salvageable IMO. The moving FFP position also perhaps improves year on year.

If we plough on with the current on pitch management and club structure more widely I foresee a bona fide relegation battle next season.

[W-S-M Seagull]

6 minutes ago, Selred said:

I personally think you're a bit short in the memory.

We are mid table, yes going backwards, but highly unlikely to be relegated. It's not like the days under S'OD / McInnes of late.

We have a squad who played with pride earlier in the season. Again, not like the massive wages we had on dead wood earlier in the season.

We have multiple academy players in the squad, it's not like under Gary where we didn't have any youth.

Even as a squad, we are fairly young. It's not like we have lots of older players on longer contracts.

Yes Manning-ball is dire. Tinnion and JL are out of their depth. But there's also so much potential here, as seen in glimpses under Nigel.

 

Ironically we will survive this season because of the results Nige and Fleming picked up. 

There is a very real risk that if this guy gets a pre season, we will be relegated next season. 

It wasn't that long ago that we had probably the worst pre season ever under Holden. We cannot afford to let that happen again. 

We are not too good to go down. The prospect of relegation next season is very alarming. 

[Galley is our king]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Another way of looking at it is..

Position Inherited

1.4 PPG, 40% Win Ratio (League)

Position 'progressed' to

1.13 PPG, 30.43% Win Ratio (League)

19.28%

23.92%

Just about says it all...

[REDOXO]

I don’t need to look at win result stats that are skewed by non availability. 
 

I can see what’s in front of me!

FYI for those that are unclear. You are watching very poor football, with little attacking intent from a team that was lorded as a top half team! 
 

My personal opinion is under the right manager with decentish availability they could very well be up there and chasing a playoff place like Mr L junior and Mr Tinnion implied. However under this utterly useless man and his cohorts we are a fringe relegation ‘challenger’ that plays in front of empty stadiums, because season ticket holders can not be arsed to show up!

Hope that helps someone! 

[BrizzleRed]

9 minutes ago, Selred said:

I personally think you're a bit short in the memory.

We are mid table, yes going backwards, but highly unlikely to be relegated. It's not like the days under S'OD / McInnes of late.

We have a squad who played with pride earlier in the season. Again, not like the massive wages we had on dead wood earlier in the season.

We have multiple academy players in the squad, it's not like under Gary where we didn't have any youth.

Even as a squad, we are fairly young. It's not like we have lots of older players on longer contracts.

Yes Manning-ball is dire. Tinnion and JL are out of their depth. But there's also so much potential here, as seen in glimpses under Nigel.

 

Unfortunately that potential means Jack shit while those out of their depth people and absent owner continue at this club.  Just watch the potential all disappear over the next couple of transfer windows too.

The so-called pathway for the young talent now seems to have disappeared, as how else can you explain decisions like bringing in someone like Mabude, when Yeboah doesn’t get a sniff any more?

We’re just a rudderless boat, with a couple of idiots sat on board and flapping their hands in the water to move it, as they’re too stupid to realise you actually need oars to make it move.

Total shambles and all of the club’s/owner’s  own doing

[Swede]

I think where we have performed under Manning I think its more to do with the players belief rather than anything Manning has implemented. 

Whilst there is a lot of criticism aimed above him, and that will need addressing, it won't change how the club operates. We will still have targets for players whether its Manning, Andy King or A.N.Other as head coach. 

I just don't think there has been enough of an influence made by him to make a difference and to suggest we will improve in the short time he has been with us. A pre season or ten games into next season won't make a difference. I am sure he will be a success at some point in the future but its just not working out here.

Getting a drubbing at home to Leicester will be extremely dispiriting for him as well as the rest of us, but if Andy King is put in temporary charge it will have the opposite affect.

Best to part ways now. 

[Superjack]

2 hours ago, Selred said:

I personally think you're a bit short in the memory.

We are mid table, yes going backwards, but highly unlikely to be relegated. It's not like the days under S'OD / McInnes of late.

We have a squad who played with pride earlier in the season. Again, not like the massive wages we had on dead wood earlier in the season.

We have multiple academy players in the squad, it's not like under Gary where we didn't have any youth.

Even as a squad, we are fairly young. It's not like we have lots of older players on longer contracts.

Yes Manning-ball is dire. Tinnion and JL are out of their depth. But there's also so much potential here, as seen in glimpses under Nigel.

 

...this season. 

All the positives you mention have either been destroyed or are in the 'process' of being.

I admire your 'glass half full' attitude, but I am struggling to see even dregs at the moment. 

So incredibly heartbreaking.

[Selred]

9 minutes ago, Superjack said:

All the positives you mention have either been destroyed or are in the 'process' of being.

 

Disagree.

The style of play is poor, and results are on a negative trajectory. I'll give you that.

Are we signing old journeyman on high wages? No. Bird, Stokes etc suggest otherwise.

Are we removing the academy? Some players like Yeboah have been shipped on loan, which is odd after being in the first team, but also I expect the likes of Palmer-Holden etc to be in and around the squad next year.

So it's not all the positives being destroyed, it's merely the style of play IMO. 

[Steve Watts]

2 hours ago, Selred said:

I personally think you're a bit short in the memory.

We are mid table, yes going backwards, but highly unlikely to be relegated. It's not like the days under S'OD / McInnes of late.

We have a squad who played with pride earlier in the season. Again, not like the massive wages we had on dead wood earlier in the season.

We have multiple academy players in the squad, it's not like under Gary where we didn't have any youth.

Even as a squad, we are fairly young. It's not like we have lots of older players on longer contracts.

Yes Manning-ball is dire. Tinnion and JL are out of their depth. But there's also so much potential here, as seen in glimpses under Nigel.

 

Absolutely no short memory in play here.  Feelings are feelings, and like I said, I've never felt so despondent about the club.

No, we're not likely to be relegated this season, but it's not even about that. 

You say about the academy players in the first team.  None of those have been blooded by Dumblebore, and considering Tinnions comments a year or so ago about the next batch, then where are they?  He's not even giving them matchday experience to fill the bench. The pride and belief has been sucked out of the players and the supporters.  There's no expectation that we're going to win any match and there's no expectation that we'll be at least entertained by trying to. 

The whole club is rudderless.  Communications are clumsy at best, season ticket price increases inflammatory and fans being told that we have to suck it up and support the club whilst being driven away in our thousands.

The trouble with potential is that in it's current guise the club is stripping all of that potential away.  

Unless big changes happen then this club is only going one way.

[cidered abroad]

3 hours ago, Steve Watts said:

Manning is doing a lot behind closed doors as well....sadly none of it is positive and the only thing this whole failed experiment has succeeded in is creating division between fans and the club and between fans and other fans. 

Supporting this club has never felt so difficult as it does now.  Usually you can find some things to be positive about. Youth coming through, players playing with pride even if they're not getting the rub of the green etc, but right now there's literally nothing.  Zero. Zilch. Nada.  And it's bloody soul destroying it really is. 

I've given over 40 years of my life to supporting this club.  Others have given even more. But I have never in those 40+ years felt as despondent as I do now.

I suppose the worst time was at Newport when we thought it was the last ever match for City. That lasted a few days, I bought £90 of shares, and the draw against Fulham with the nursery boys put us back on line. Even being 92nd in Div Four the next season cannot match what I am seeing with this person who couldn't coach rats to steal from a bird table.

[AshtonGreat]

4 hours ago, Steve Watts said:

Manning is doing a lot behind closed doors as well....sadly none of it is positive and the only thing this whole failed experiment has succeeded in is creating division between fans and the club and between fans and other fans. 

Supporting this club has never felt so difficult as it does now.  Usually you can find some things to be positive about. Youth coming through, players playing with pride even if they're not getting the rub of the green etc, but right now there's literally nothing.  Zero. Zilch. Nada.  And it's bloody soul destroying it really is. 

I've given over 40 years of my life to supporting this club.  Others have given even more. But I have never in those 40+ years felt as despondent as I do now.

Care to elaborate?

6 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

I suppose the worst time was at Newport when we thought it was the last ever match for City. That lasted a few days, I bought £90 of shares, and the draw against Fulham with the nursery boys put us back on line. Even being 92nd in Div Four the next season cannot match what I am seeing with this person who couldn't coach rats to steal from a bird table.

Haha are you serious?

[Merrick's Marvels]

43 minutes ago, Selred said:

Disagree.

The style of play is poor, and results are on a negative trajectory. I'll give you that.

Are we signing old journeyman on high wages? No. Bird, Stokes etc suggest otherwise.

Out of interest which old journeyman on high wages were you thinking of?

[glynriley]

33 minutes ago, Steve Watts said:

You say about the academy players in the first team.  None of those have been blooded by Dumblebore,

 

Brilliant

[Selred]

22 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Out of interest which old journeyman on high wages were you thinking of?

Players like Damion Stewart, Jamal Campbell-Ryce, Gavin Williams come to mind.

[exAtyeoMax]

3 hours ago, Selred said:

I personally think you're a bit short in the memory.

We are mid table, yes going backwards, but highly unlikely to be relegated. It's not like the days under S'OD / McInnes of late.

We have a squad who played with pride earlier in the season. Again, not like the massive wages we had on dead wood earlier in the season.

We have multiple academy players in the squad, it's not like under Gary where we didn't have any youth.

Even as a squad, we are fairly young. It's not like we have lots of older players on longer contracts.

Yes Manning-ball is dire. Tinnion and JL are out of their depth. But there's also so much potential here, as seen in glimpses under Nigel.

 

Isn't that the point though? It's being eroded 

[Merrick's Marvels]

10 minutes ago, Selred said:

Players like Damion Stewart, Jamal Campbell-Ryce, Gavin Williams come to mind.

Cheers.

Now to go back to your post:

1 hour ago, Selred said:

Disagree.

The style of play is poor, and results are on a negative trajectory. I'll give you that.

Are we signing old journeyman on high wages? No. Bird, Stokes etc suggest otherwise.

Are we removing the academy? Some players like Yeboah have been shipped on loan, which is odd after being in the first team, but also I expect the likes of Palmer-Holden etc to be in and around the squad next year.

So it's not all the positives being destroyed, it's merely the style of play IMO. 

Do you think the signing of Bird will be sufficient to halt the current negative trajectory? (The chances are the likes of Stokes and SB-H will be peripheral players at best).

The strategy appears to be - get to the end of the season, any which way we can, then buy a couple of young midfielders.

Is that really going to be the answer, given what we've seen?  

I'm sceptical, to be honest. 

[Superjack]

1 hour ago, Selred said:

Players like Damion Stewart, Jamal Campbell-Ryce, Gavin Williams come to mind.

So going back years then. 

Guess what? We haven't signed any of those in the last three years.

But if the experience in the squad is being shown the door, which is looking likely, maybe we should start again.

[Monkeh]

6 minutes ago, Superjack said:

So going back years then. 

Guess what? We haven't signed any of those in the last three years.

But if the experience in the squad is being shown the door, which is looking likely, maybe we should start again.

I'd argue JCR did a decent job here and wasn't on massive wages ether

[Numero Uno]

1 hour ago, AshtonGreat said:

Care to elaborate?

Haha are you serious?

The funny thing is, though, that game against Fulham with literally a team of kids who scrapped a 0-0 draw against a team that should have obliterated us and was a game where fans were given something to get behind. We then struggled as we inevitably would in the circumstances and ultimately brought in a Player Manager who was chalk and cheese to the bore in charge now.

If you want to introduce a siege mentality, us (including the fans) against everyone, Terence Cooper showed you how it’s done. Literally paid out of his own pocket for the lads to EAT on the way home from away trips. HIS boys. Showed plenty of emotion, got lads of limited ability running through brick walls. Fans right on board with it. Truthful, approachable.

Compare that to todays current siege mentality, billionaire club owner and board v punters, organised by entitled staff who think 30 years service (less the breaks……) entitle them to a top job taking plenty of dosh out of the club and not having to perform in return. Untruths everywhere, leaks all over the shop. Propaganda being peddled.

It was awful at times back then, but for different reasons it feels worse now.

[Monkeh]

3 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

The funny thing is, though, that game against Fulham with literally a team of kids who scrapped a 0-0 draw against a team that should have obliterated us and was a game where fans were given something to get behind. We then struggled as we inevitably would in the circumstances and ultimately brought in a Player Manager who was chalk and cheese to the bore in charge now.

If you want to introduce a siege mentality, us (including the fans) against everyone, Terence Cooper showed you how it’s done. Literally paid out of his own pocket for the lads to EAT on the way home from away trips. HIS boys. Showed plenty of emotion, got lads of limited ability running through brick walls. Fans right on board with it. Truthful, approachable.

Compare that to todays current siege mentality, billionaire club owner and board v punters, organised by entitled staff who think 30 years service (less the breaks……) entitle them to a top job taking plenty of dosh out of the club and not having to perform in return. Untruths everywhere, leaks all over the shop. Propaganda being peddled.

It was awful at times back then, but for different reasons it feels worse now.

There was a togetherness back then, that's gone now

[Superjack]

3 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

I'd argue JCR did a decent job here and wasn't on massive wages ether

Don't disagree.

Just now, Monkeh said:

There was a togetherness back then, that's gone now

There was six months ago.

[fgrsimon]

11 hours ago, cidered abroad said:

Very good statement. I go back to 1950 and there's only two that I can think of that were worse for confidence and team spirit.

Peter Doherty in 1958 and Pulis.

Even SO'D and McInnes had some good spells and tried to play football.

I'll raise you Jimmy Lumsden; took over a very good Joe Jordan Division 2 (Championship in modern terms) team, turned it into a relegation battle in just over a year and got rid of Bob Taylor. Interestingly I don't think he ever managed again but was a successful Coach under David Moyes for a long time.

Edited March 20 by fgrsimon

[W-S-M Seagull]

3 hours ago, Superjack said:

So going back years then. 

Guess what? We haven't signed any of those in the last three years.

But if the experience in the squad is being shown the door, which is looking likely, maybe we should start again.

Let's be honest, James and King will be leaving in the summer under this guy, that loss of experience is going to be absolutely massive.