The End of the Beginning and the Beginning of the end

[bpexile]

15 minutes ago, Son of Fred said:

Judging by our current form the only game I'd say to be  a very likely win is Rotherham.

You having a laugh ? 

Edited March 19 by bpexile

[Bazooka Joe]

It’s all speculation about the “8 games to turn it round”.

And even if this was the case, what does this actually mean in reality?

Knowing our three numpties, they will not set Manning a specific points target, because that will leave them with no wriggle room.

If he secures a measly 5 points from the last eight games, they will probably frame that into having turned things round and good enough reason to carry on with this shambolic project.

Tough as it might seem to some, I’d set Manning a target of 15 points minimum from these remaining games, to make up for the appallingly low points haul he has already accrued.

He should be judged on his entire tenure, and not solely on these last 8 games.

[Capman]

Manning out yes, but it’s not the long term answer. Jon has to step down as Chairman and BT needs to be demoted too. I suspect there is some very difficult musical chairs needed over the next few weeks if we are to have any chance of promotion next season. The current structure and people are absolutely not fit for purpose. 
Personally if I were Steve I would announce King to manage to end of the season, Jon had decided to stand down as chair to pursue his other business interests but would stay on the board and the search was on for a new Chairman who would lead the recruitment of a new manager. 

[bpexile]

1 minute ago, Capman said:

Manning out yes, but it’s not the long term answer. Jon has to step down as Chairman and BT needs to be demoted too. I suspect there is some very difficult musical chairs needed over the next few weeks if we are to have any chance of promotion next season. The current structure and people are absolutely not fit for purpose. 
Personally if I were Steve I would announce King to manage to end of the season, Jon had decided to stand down as chair to pursue his other business interests but would stay on the board and the search was on for a new Chairman who would lead the recruitment of a new manager. 

 

[fisherrich]

12 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

Well, with Ian Gay stating (assumedly through Tinnion) that Liam has 8 games to save his job, I think we can reasonably say we’re nearing endgame. A couple of weeks ago I was of the mind to give Liam until the end of the season and see if we continually improved in a few key areas (game management, speed of play, bravery) - but we’ve regressed and I think the ship has now sailed.

What we can glean is that those above Liam (assuming SL) aren’t happy with what’s gone before, and we know wins of the nature of Swansea won’t butter any parsnips.

So, in those 8 games somehow Liam needs to markedly improve results (probably to playoff form) and performance not to get the sack. I don’t think that’s happening - and the way we’re setting up even if we meet point one we’re not getting point two.

It’s the end of the beginning and the beginning of the end. I’ve got no real doubt he won’t be here at the start of the season considering what he’ll need to do. It’s probably done in the next 3 games in practical terms.

And for avoidance of doubt, there is no way Tinnion should then be caretaker and he should be getting the archer as well.

“Next one please” and then we go around again!!
 

[Nugget]

Yeah I don’t think it’ll be anywhere near 8 games, there’s a rot already in place getting worse, massive humble pie needing to be consumed.

If they come out & admit they got this structure wrong it would massively save face & really should be happening now.

[Jerseybean]

10 hours ago, Spike said:

I think it would be a balance of results and performance. At the very least they'll expect 9-10 points but more than anything they'd need to see a team capable of competing next season and that is where I think he'd lose his job. There is no way we're going to see a competitive team in all of those 8 games. 

Leicester away - Only chance we have with this game is if Leicester comes looking to thump us and play aggressive opening up the game to suit us. Personally I think having given up a massive points lead at the top of the table they'll be looking to get that top spot back so we'll be getting a very up for it Leicester. 

Plymouth away - in the relegation battle, most likely going to set up not to concede and make things difficult for us, exactly what we struggle with. I could see this being one of those games where we struggle to create a lot. 

Sunderland away - probably one of the games we should be hoping to get points from, they're midtable, far enough behind to make a final push unlikely but also safe from relegation so we should be hoping they're not much up for a scrap. 

Blackburn home - another team who could be in the relegation fight come this game, currently only 3 points of relegation and another team who may set up to frustrate us. 

Huddersfield home - in the relegation zone, a point could be huge for them at the time we play them, definitely going to be looking to set up defensively against us and frustrate. 

Norwich away - Currently in the play offs, if they're still in or around them when we play them they're going to need that win, could play in our favour if they look to bring the game to us but whatever their gameplan they will be up for it. 

Rotherham home - already dead and buried, anything other than a win in this fixture and Manning has to be in trouble. 

Stoke away - also in the relegation battle, kind of hoping they may get enough points to be out of it by this game meaning it could be a little less cagey but if they're in the battle still then I'd expect them to be looking to take the game to us. 

 

It's not an easy run in, on paper you'd look at alot of those games and say we should be getting points but based on what I've seen under Manning I could see it's dropping a lot of points if he doesn't find a way to overcome our struggle to score goals in own play and break down teams who sit back and frustrate. 

The prediction thread about our remaining eight games relates 

[Monkeh]

Here's a question

Would changing the head coach make a difference where you have a technical director dictating to you how you must play and who you will sign,

It won't an entire change of approach is needed,

The ideas behind it are sound but there's too much power concentrated in one area which is why it's failing 

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

9 hours ago, 42nite said:

I'm afraid the happy days of Tinman are long gone for me.

It's Tinnion at best from now on.

Snake has a more authentic ring to it (or should that be hiss?)

[milo1111]

7 minutes ago, Nugget said:

Yeah I don’t think it’ll be anywhere near 8 games, there’s a rot already in place getting worse, massive humble pie needing to be consumed.

If they come out & admit they got this structure wrong it would massively save face & really should be happening now.

This is it though isn’t it. In the last twenty years there have been loads of absolutely shocking appointments . But when has lansdown ever held his hands up to any of it. It’s his club not ours remember so why should he

a bit of contrition over the next few months would go a hell of a long way with the fan base but I’m not holding my breath.

Even if manning does go I can’t see any change above him forthcoming and a similarly poor appointment as ‘head coach’ is likely I fear.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Monkeh said:

Here's a question

Would changing the head coach make a difference where you have a technical director dictating to you how you must play and who you will sign,

It won't an entire change of approach is needed,

The ideas behind it are sound but there's too much power concentrated in one area which is why it's failing 

The technical director is not dictating how Manning plays or who he signs.  If he was, we’d be playing front foot, high press, forward thinking, attacking football.  We aren’t doing any of those.  This is Manning’s approach, not Tinnion’s.  Tinnion’s fault he thought he was getting something else, but he ain’t dictating it.

Twine and Mebude signing’s will have been heavily influenced by Manning, Murphy and Stokes, both really young and already in plan.  No reason to not sign them.

I don’t think we sign Bird if Manning doesn’t rate him.

[Monkeh]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

The technical director is not dictating how Manning plays or who he signs.  If he was, we’d be playing front foot, high press, forward thinking, attacking football.  We aren’t doing any of those.  This is Manning’s approach, not Tinnion’s.  Tinnion’s fault he thought he was getting something else, but he ain’t dictating it.

Twine and Mebude signing’s will have been heavily influenced by Manning, Murphy and Stokes, both really young and already in plan.  No reason to not sign them.

I don’t think we sign Bird if Manning doesn’t rate him.

I'm picking up on what was said OK coms against West Ham,

If that's not the case then that's fine

[Davefevs]

Just now, Monkeh said:

I'm picking up on what was said OK coms against West Ham,

If that's not the case then that's fine

What was said against West Ham?

[Monkeh]

Just now, Davefevs said:

What was said against West Ham?

Pretty much what I said, that the chairman and td was telling the head coach how they want him to play,

If I can find a clip I will send it to you,

I may just be reading into too much

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

The technical director is not dictating how Manning plays or who he signs.  If he was, we’d be playing front foot, high press, forward thinking, attacking football.  We aren’t doing any of those.  This is Manning’s approach, not Tinnion’s.  Tinnion’s fault he thought he was getting something else, but he ain’t dictating it.

Twine and Mebude signing’s will have been heavily influenced by Manning, Murphy and Stokes, both really young and already in plan.  No reason to not sign them.

I don’t think we sign Bird if Manning doesn’t rate him.

Yeah I think the need to remove Tinnion is more about the need for ability in that role and the removal of a malign influence as opposed to direct impact on first team style/results. Essentially Tinnion will also be a bit of a gatekeeper between the manager and board - and as he has JLs ear can easily say something is a good/bad idea against the manager.

So, he needs to go as he’s a macro problem. But I don’t believe in any way shape or form he’s influencing how we play, how things are being managed on matchdays or who is in the side. That’s totally Liam.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Pretty much what I said, that the chairman and td was telling the head coach how they want him to play,

If I can find a clip I will send it to you,

I may just be reading into too much

Got you, I’m sure both are saying what they want. That was the brief for the head-coach they appointed.  He ain’t delivering it, because they picked the wrong bloke!  What a “farse” (my new word)!

[exAtyeoMax]

12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The technical director is not dictating how Manning plays or who he signs.  If he was, we’d be playing front foot, high press, forward thinking, attacking football.  We aren’t doing any of those.  This is Manning’s approach, not Tinnion’s.  Tinnion’s fault he thought he was getting something else, but he ain’t dictating it.

Twine and Mebude signing’s will have been heavily influenced by Manning, Murphy and Stokes, both really young and already in plan.  No reason to not sign them.

I don’t think we sign Bird if Manning doesn’t rate him.

I wonder if it's BT trying to protect his position (ie setting up not to lose)?

Why have we suddenly adopted this strange approach to games? Why is the Soton game an outlier? Why has it changed so dramatically since then? Is it BT's orders? 

[TheJudge07]

Manning has shown that he is not an intelligent coach and he has been unable to work with the players effectively. But what did people expect - he has managed Milton Keynes and Oxford. He has hardly pulled up any trees and is still a rookie. His coaching experience is good but in clubs which have more stable foundations.  His in-game management has generally been poor and the lack of creativity is a concern. I dont think he has made a single player any better and if I were him, I would have taken some of U18s out and given them a run. They can be no worse than what we have seen. What has happened to the players in the U21's - they have fallen off a cliff.  Instead of seeing what the players had done under Pearson he has tried to implement a completely new style on players who simply cannot play this way. They are not technically good enough. He has also tried to do it mid-season which was crazy. To have persisted with that approach is the most surprising aspect, when it clearly does not work and it is actually alienating the fan base. A good coach would revert to a system he knows the players are more comfortable with and then re-evaluate it in the summer. He should stick with 433 as that was the most effective formation and system for this group of players. I am not sure that he will be sacked. If he was there man "4 months ago", I dont think they will throw in the towel yet. Remember some idiot gave him a 3.5 year contract.  I reckon he will be given the summer to sort it out.   The Autumn of 2024 will be the defining period for Manning. If we are in relegation trouble at XMAS he will be sacked.  To be honest, I hope he is successful. No one surely wants to see the team lose. The board will need to back him in the summer to the tune of 6 or 7 players if he has any chance of being successful. A new manager would only inherit the same problems.....

[W-S-M Seagull]

I'm not sure I go along with the "he has 8 games to save his job" because surely every manager has about 8 games to save their jobs? If a a manager losses 8 games in a row then they are probably losing their job (unless you're LJ) 

 

 

 

[Coupon]

6 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I'm not sure I go along with the "he has 8 games to save his job" because surely every manager has about 8 games to save their jobs? If a a manager losses 8 games in a row then they are probably losing their job (unless you're LJ) 

 

 

 

Totally agree, this is typical Ian Gay - there are 8 games left in the season, so all he is saying is that Manning is here until the end of the season, which as his current contract applies would be correct, however if things go pear shaped and he gets the sack then Ian can crow to all that Manning was being judged on or within those 8 games and the he (Ian) was ITK.  Total bullshit

[cidered abroad]

1 hour ago, Capman said:

Manning out yes, but it’s not the long term answer. Jon has to step down as Chairman and BT needs to be demoted too. I suspect there is some very difficult musical chairs needed over the next few weeks if we are to have any chance of promotion next season. The current structure and people are absolutely not fit for purpose. 
Personally if I were Steve I would announce King to manage to end of the season, Jon had decided to stand down as chair to pursue his other business interests but would stay on the board and the search was on for a new Chairman who would lead the recruitment of a new manager. 

That is what should occur but we all know it won't happen.

[Steve Watts]

1 hour ago, One Team said:

I agree mate but really depends how the Leicester game goes. If we win, great, maybe it’s a stay of execution or even a turning point. If we are losing, especially badly, it could be really bad especially with the Nige/Leicester thing. You can, for example, easily see a scenario where there are chants against Manning and for Nige if it’s a heavy defeat. 

At least if we beat Leicester they'll shut up about Southampton!

1 hour ago, Monkeh said:

James won't make a difference, nether would foden and haarland on loan,

The players aren't the problem, the system they are being asked to play is the problem

Sounds like a West Country Erling Haaland tribute act!

 

13 minutes ago, TheJudge07 said:

Manning has shown that he is not an intelligent coach and he has been unable to work with the players effectively. But what did people expect - he has managed Milton Keynes and Oxford. He has hardly pulled up any trees and is still a rookie. His coaching experience is good but in clubs which have more stable foundations.  His in-game management has generally been poor and the lack of creativity is a concern. I dont think he has made a single player any better and if I were him, I would have taken some of U18s out and given them a run. They can be no worse than what we have seen. What has happened to the players in the U21's - they have fallen off a cliff.  Instead of seeing what the players had done under Pearson he has tried to implement a completely new style on players who simply cannot play this way. They are not technically good enough. He has also tried to do it mid-season which was crazy. To have persisted with that approach is the most surprising aspect, when it clearly does not work and it is actually alienating the fan base. A good coach would revert to a system he knows the players are more comfortable with and then re-evaluate it in the summer. He should stick with 433 as that was the most effective formation and system for this group of players. I am not sure that he will be sacked. If he was there man "4 months ago", I dont think they will throw in the towel yet. Remember some idiot gave him a 3.5 year contract.  I reckon he will be given the summer to sort it out.   The Autumn of 2024 will be the defining period for Manning. If we are in relegation trouble at XMAS he will be sacked.  To be honest, I hope he is successful. No one surely wants to see the team lose. The board will need to back him in the summer to the tune of 6 or 7 players if he has any chance of being successful. A new manager would only inherit the same problems.....

I wouldn't put too much stock in that, as I doubt his contract entitles him to the remainder of his contract being paid up in full, especially in the event of performance related dismissal.  Probably a year I'd imagine. (Though this is a guess, admittedly).

[Numero Uno]

1 hour ago, Bazooka Joe said:

It’s all speculation about the “8 games to turn it round”.

And even if this was the case, what does this actually mean in reality?

Knowing our three numpties, they will not set Manning a specific points target, because that will leave them with no wriggle room.

If he secures a measly 5 points from the last eight games, they will probably frame that into having turned things round and good enough reason to carry on with this shambolic project.

Tough as it might seem to some, I’d set Manning a target of 15 points minimum from these remaining games, to make up for the appallingly low points haul he has already accrued.

He should be judged on his entire tenure, and not solely on these last 8 games.

Get where you are coming from. If he was to achieve say 8 points in his last 8 games the "Nige Out" Fan Club would jubilantly proclaim he has turned it round, hoist the lad on their shoulders and carry him down North Street or something. However 8 points in 8 would give him a total record of 34 from 31, which is crap, and 20 points from his last 22 games which is absolute litter. So yeah, he does need a very decent points haul if these 8 games decide his future.

[Shauntaylor85]

Lucky he got the Swansea result as he would have been sacked by now surely. Even though Swans was equally as bad performance wise. So difficult to know what is best, lose a couple more so he goes but then risk is they don’t sack him and the drama goes on and on. I personally think sack him now and admit to the fans it hasn’t worked and apologise. Think the fans would respect that more. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 minute ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

Lucky he got the Swansea result as he would have been sacked by now surely. Even though Swans was equally as bad performance wise. So difficult to know what is best, lose a couple more so he goes but then risk is they don’t sack him and the drama goes on and on. I personally think sack him now and admit to the fans it hasn’t worked and apologise. Think the fans would respect that more. 

For me, the performance against Swansea was so bad I consider it a defeat. 

Worth remembering too that Swansea also had their minds on the SW Derby the following week. 

[Silvio Dante]

26 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

I wonder if it's BT trying to protect his position (ie setting up not to lose)?

Why have we suddenly adopted this strange approach to games? Why is the Soton game an outlier? Why has it changed so dramatically since then? Is it BT's orders? 

Very very unlikely. Tinnion is protecting his position (see SOTC interview) but that doesn’t extend to telling the manager/head coach how to play. For all the criticism of Liam I think it has been unfair of some to portray him as a yes man - he definitely isn’t. He’s got strong beliefs in his processes (they’re just flawed is the problem!)

Your reason why it’s changed is simple and twofold - fear and opponents. Opponents, as was bound to happen, have figured how to play us. We know we’re better without the ball and Liam has taken that to the extremes by just sitting and letting the other team have it - but they’re not doing what he wants them to. You then have fear - or belief - the latter of which has totally been sucked out of the side by how he’s coached them. Hes under pressure so is setting up not to lose as opposed to win. And that is not going to change.

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

For me, the performance against Swansea was so bad I consider it a defeat. 

Worth remembering too that Swansea also had their minds on the SW Derby the following week. 

I’m sorry that’s just nonsense. Did we play poorly? Yes. But Swansea vs Cardiff was a week away, and Williams wasn’t resting players. They had more of the ball and could have scored. 
 

The Welsh Derby was a big game - but it wasn’t an FA cup final for example. There’s no way professional players would have been subconsciously easing up one week prior and saying so lessens the truth of your argument - that we just didn’t play well.

[W-S-M Seagull]

3 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I’m sorry that’s just nonsense. Did we play poorly? Yes. But Swansea vs Cardiff was a week away, and Williams wasn’t resting players. They had more of the ball and could have scored. 
 

The Welsh Derby was a big game - but it wasn’t an FA cup final for example. There’s no way professional players would have been subconsciously easing up one week prior and saying so lessens the truth of your argument - that we just didn’t play well.

I picked up on something that one of the Swansea players said after the SW derby which suggested to me that their minds wasn't fully concentrated on the game against us. 

For the Welsh it is that big. Swansea were absolutely desperate for Cardiff to not do the double on them for the 1st time ever I believe. 

The fact we were so shit against a team that had its mind elsewhere says it all really.

[CyderInACan]

16 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

For me, the performance against Swansea was so bad I consider it a defeat. 

 

So bad, in fact, that City were being booed by half an hour into the game. With Steve Lansdown there. 

[Selred]

1 hour ago, Monkeh said:

Here's a question

Would changing the head coach make a difference where you have a technical director dictating to you how you must play and who you will sign,

It won't an entire change of approach is needed,

The ideas behind it are sound but there's too much power concentrated in one area which is why it's failing 

I actually believe a technical director should dictate how we play.

We should have an identity which runs throughout the club, meaning all youth players play the Bristol City way and can slot in seamlessly into the first team when called upon. It also means we have a clear approach and structure to transfers, protecting the club from having to be rebuilt each time we get a new manager.

If we kept ripping up the rule book each time, we'd have players like Sam Bell who are good on the press, being part of a team who play hoof ball and it wouldn't work. 

And this is part of the issue, Tinnion wants a high press, attacking team, and I feel we are actually building a team for this (Tinnion should be part of a panel on who we sign, but the key word is panel). However this is not the style Manning is playing, and that's the issue. Tinnion should be asking why has he taken a high press team (best at the press in the league under Pearson), and start to reverse it? I'm all for managers tweaking, but it shouldn't be wholesale changes.