The End of the Beginning and the Beginning of the end

[Show Me The Money!]

6 hours ago, Monkeh said:

I'd argue JCR did a decent job here and wasn't on massive wages ether

I remember him being all step overs and little else. Signed when Johnson senior’s term was going sour

[Show Me The Money!]

12 hours ago, Steve Watts said:

Manning is doing a lot behind closed doors as well....sadly none of it is positive and the only thing this whole failed experiment has succeeded in is creating division between fans and the club and between fans and other fans. 

Supporting this club has never felt so difficult as it does now.  Usually you can find some things to be positive about. Youth coming through, players playing with pride even if they're not getting the rub of the green etc, but right now there's literally nothing.  Zero. Zilch. Nada.  And it's bloody soul destroying it really is. 

I've given over 40 years of my life to supporting this club.  Others have given even more. But I have never in those 40+ years felt as despondent as I do now.

Sad thing is though if you look back over those 40 years you will have most likely felt despondent at many times, div 4 times, Pulis era, Tinnion as manager, McInnes era, end of Johnson senior era, Johnson Junior losing streaks, Holden era and even some of Pearson’s era. 
 

Are you more despondent now than any of those times?

Or have I just made you even more despondent about supporting City in general? 

[Steve Watts]

1 hour ago, Show Me The Money! said:

Sad thing is though if you look back over those 40 years you will have most likely felt despondent at many times, div 4 times, Pulis era, Tinnion as manager, McInnes era, end of Johnson senior era, Johnson Junior losing streaks, Holden era and even some of Pearson’s era. 
 

Are you more despondent now than any of those times?

Or have I just made you even more despondent about supporting City in general? 

Yep. Much more despondent now. We've gone from being on the cusp of something to whatever fresh hell this is. And it was all so unnecessary.

[Burt_]

On 19/03/2024 at 20:30, Davefevs said:

Do you think you’ll already know that come season end?  Or do you really need really need 20 (8+12) and a window to assess?

Fine if you do.

I’ve seen enough.  I don’t think he can change.

Out of interest, as you were quite upbeat about LM for some time

- saying you could see a general improvement as his tactical plan was clearly being implemented. And that you felt performances were positive/much improved, with LM's side showing clear signs of development on the pitch, even in defeat, as the team adopted his playing identity. - 

I just wondered at what point you changed your mind about Manning and decided he isn't the man for us?

[Burt_]

Just now, Burt_ said:

Out of interest, as you were quite upbeat about LM for some time

- saying you could see a general improvement as his tactical plan was clearly being implemented. And that you felt performances were positive/much improved, with LM's side showing clear signs of development on the pitch, even in defeat, as the team adopted his playing identity. - 

I just wondered at what point you changed your mind about Manning and decided he isn't the man for us?

By the way,  it's not a dig or anything.  I'm just genuinely interested to find out at what point he lost you.

[REDOXO]

17 hours ago, Selred said:

I personally think you're a bit short in the memory.

We are mid table, yes going backwards, but highly unlikely to be relegated. It's not like the days under S'OD / McInnes of late.

We have a squad who played with pride earlier in the season. Again, not like the massive wages we had on dead wood earlier in the season.

We have multiple academy players in the squad, it's not like under Gary where we didn't have any youth.

Even as a squad, we are fairly young. It's not like we have lots of older players on longer contracts.

Yes Manning-ball is dire. Tinnion and JL are out of their depth. But there's also so much potential here, as seen in glimpses under Nigel.

 

I agree regarding the potential.
 

However Mr Manning is strangling the life out of that too! He wants to bring in his own players and block the pathway. 
 

I so wish I had never heard this man’s name!

[cidered abroad]

14 hours ago, AshtonGreat said:

Care to elaborate?

Haha are you serious?

Yes.

[Numero Uno]

51 minutes ago, Burt_ said:

By the way,  it's not a dig or anything.  I'm just genuinely interested to find out at what point he lost you.

I can't speak for others but I would say that post Southampton has confirmed for many what they were thinking before we went to Coventry and got a result, then beat Middlesbrough and then the 3-0 (Tins said it so it must be true.........) drubbing of said Real Madrid on Sky. You cannot ignore the stats since Boxing Day and you certainly cannot ignore an overall league losing record that now stands at 48% and seemingly rising. The one game we have won in the last six was some of the worst football I've seen down the Gate for literally years. Total boredom from start to the point I walked out.

When we beat Middlesbrough 3-2 early doors there was a Nige Out Merchant who quoted "isn't it refreshing to see a win delivered like that by a Progressive Young Coach". I thought at the time "that's a bit early" and you have to wonder what the Nige Out Fan Club think about it all right now. There doesn't seem to be many of them here to tell us though for some odd reason. Their boy is literally at the point of needing several snookers to save his job and that's not something I say with any relish either. If any of you are reading the forum right now I think it is your mob that are just as responsible the mess we are currently in on the pitch as Chas and Dave supposedly running it.

You lot have played a large part in significantly disrupting a football club that was going along unspectacularly but nicely and also, should the almost inevitable happen bar a miracle, potentially disrupting the career of the progressive young coach you spoke of in the "old days" for some time. Next time, Be Careful What You Wish For lads.....

[SecretSam]

22 hours ago, bearded_red said:

Both of these also took over terrible teams in dire situations, while they both proved incapable of improving matters (although I do think O’Driscoll did good work behind the scenes but that’s a different conversation), nobody could argue they inherited a decent team and made them significantly worse.

Manning took an over perfectly decent mid table team with a lot going for it, not world beaters, but organised, spirited and athletic. The speed in which he has turned that team into one that plays the worst football since Tony Pulis and takes 12 points from 14 games is staggering really. He also seems to have deprogrammed the players into never being able to do anything at pace, never showing any confidence, ambition or imagination and frankly looking like the broken shells of professional footballers. You can almost see them all constantly second guessing themselves.

People on here like to take SOD apart, but I think he really did some strong work, not least by recruiting players like Pack and Flint whom we later sold for massive profits, with them having been mainstays of the side. Sure, he wasn't all sunshine and flowers, but I think given the state of the club he inherited, he did more good than harm.

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

Nige Out Fan Club think about it all right now. There doesn't seem to be many of them here to tell us though for some odd reason. Their boy is literally at the point of needing several snookers to save his job and that's not something I say with any relish either. If any of you are reading the forum right now I think it is your mob that are just as responsible the mess we are currently in on the pitch as Chas and Dave supposedly running it.

This is what they wanted, they need to own it! 

I find it hilarious that these people have quietly shifted to 'Manning out' and then just disappeared. Some of them have reappeared during the safety of an international break where their man can't deliver any more terrible performances and results. But for the most part I can only assume they have all gone on round the world cruises. 

Your final bit sums it right up. They are just as responsible. The club knew they could make these decisions because they would have people going to war for them. I call them enablers. 

Makes me fume that these people were so happy for so much damage to be done and now they can't own the fact that this is the guy that they wanted. 

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, Burt_ said:

Out of interest, as you were quite upbeat about LM for some time

- saying you could see a general improvement as his tactical plan was clearly being implemented. And that you felt performances were positive/much improved, with LM's side showing clear signs of development on the pitch, even in defeat, as the team adopted his playing identity. - 

I just wondered at what point you changed your mind about Manning and decided he isn't the man for us?

No, I wasn’t upbeat for some time, you may be mistaking me for someone else.  At best I was neutral overall, non-committal, I was observing game to game, highlighting some pros, highlighting some cons.  Clear that I wouldn’t make any real conclusions to the 1st Feb (end of window).  I set out how I’d assess LM right at the start.

If you go back, you’ll see against the “euphoria” (ok, I’m exaggerating) of some fans saying we were playing better, creating more chances, creating better chances, I was the one one tempering it with a view that I didn’t think much had changed and that we weren’t creating more / better chances…that there was a small regression in our attacking play.  Data matched what I thought.  Against the euphoria of Southampton, where I walked away buzzing, my first thoughts were “let’s see how his team plays against QPR, etc, coming up” - teams that don’t play a style that allowed us to play to counterattack football.

Some things I was positive about early on:

- keeping the ball a bit more, with a view to creating rotations and therefore finding players in space (that’s diminished from the early days)

- press well triggered (but still too happy to drop into a block)

- improved rest and rotation of squad

- his ability to answer any Q thrown at him (that later became what appears to be some stock answers that don’t always answer the Q!)

Things I wasn’t positive about:

- we rarely got in behind opponents (otherwise known as the “stifling of Tommy Conway”, all our build-up was in-front of our opponents 

- we’d gone from 800 pass games where we had 49% possession of it, to 1000 pass games where we were getting less than 49%, ie. Whilst we were making more passes, so were our opponents, and it was creating games of a more sterile nature

- DMs not screening CBs

- the picking of the team / shape predominantly based on our opponent shape.

I might’ve gained clarity on what his tactical plan was, and how he was implementing that, and things like how he looked at formations, shapes, etc, but I wasn’t positive (upbeat).

I actually have every interview, pre and post-match catalogued (my brief notes / my pick-ups), plus my post match thoughts, together with emerging positives and emerging negatives I was seeing.  Most games have a mix of + / - in the early games.

I didn’t change my mind really at any point, but from being “I still want to observe” after Sheffield Wednesday, Cardiff (h) tipped me over the edge, to “he’s got to go”.  I was basically trying to finally determine whether parts of Boro and Southampton were the “new norm” or whether they were the “blip” and Leeds, Blackburn, QPR, etc were the “norm”.  I fell on the side of the Manning-norm was one of taking us backwards. 

 

 

Edited March 21 by Davefevs

[W-S-M Seagull]

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

If you go back, you’ll see against the “euphoria” (ok, I’m exaggerating) of some fans saying we were playing better, creating more chances, creating better chances

No you're really not exaggerating. 

There really were people that proclained that we now looked well coached and play like Man City. Like you, I just never really saw it. 

[Sir Geoff]

37 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

This is what they wanted, they need to own it! 

I find it hilarious that these people have quietly shifted to 'Manning out' and then just disappeared. Some of them have reappeared during the safety of an international break where their man can't deliver any more terrible performances and results. But for the most part I can only assume they have all gone on round the world cruises. 

Your final bit sums it right up. They are just as responsible. The club knew they could make these decisions because they would have people going to war for them. I call them enablers. 

Makes me fume that these people were so happy for so much damage to be done and now they can't own the fact that this is the guy that they wanted. 

I believe Port Said Red is the Captain of said ship.

[W-S-M Seagull]

7 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

I believe Port Said Red is the Captain of said ship.

I hope he is enjoying his cruise. His absence is very much felt. 

[Selred]

17 hours ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Do you think the signing of Bird will be sufficient to halt the current negative trajectory? (The chances are the likes of Stokes and SB-H will be peripheral players at best).

The strategy appears to be - get to the end of the season, any which way we can, then buy a couple of young midfielders.

Is that really going to be the answer, given what we've seen?  

I'm sceptical, to be honest. 

No, I think we need to move Manning, Tinnion and JL on to reverse our current trajactory.

But I also don't think the club is at rock bottom. It's not the worst I've seen it.

It may be a sinking ship, but it's because of the Captains, not because there's a massive hole in it. It's got a lot of potential.

[Numero Uno]

1 hour ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Makes me fume that these people were so happy for so much damage to be done and now they can't own the fact that this is the guy that they wanted. 

Absolutely. I did say, at the time, given Nige was fired, not coming back and there was nothing we could do about it, that we had to give Manning time. However he has now had half a season and to all intents and purposes has totally bombed over the last three months. That, coupled with the biggest lack of fan connection that I can remember with a manager for a long time coming off the back of a bloke who the majority of fans had a big connection with, is enough time given for many.

The bigger issue that won't go away though is that we have a Chairman, Technical Director and some BS Suit called Gavin in charge, the majority of fans can see that they aren't up to it, not even close, even the local radio has had enough and are labelling them "personality vacuum's" and this has led to an "Us v Them" situation reflected in club media content. That will end one way and one way only (my opinion is in twelve months time if the status quo continues and we make a right horlicks of next season) unless they change tack and unheard of levels of contriteness are displayed or, more likely, Steve steps in and does something about it.

When Manning is fired the Ferry Mob will be back on saying he's been hounded out..................guaranteed.

Edited March 21 by Numero Uno

[Silvio Dante]

1 hour ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

This is what they wanted, they need to own it! 

I find it hilarious that these people have quietly shifted to 'Manning out' and then just disappeared. Some of them have reappeared during the safety of an international break where their man can't deliver any more terrible performances and results. But for the most part I can only assume they have all gone on round the world cruises. 

Your final bit sums it right up. They are just as responsible. The club knew they could make these decisions because they would have people going to war for them. I call them enablers. 

Makes me fume that these people were so happy for so much damage to be done and now they can't own the fact that this is the guy that they wanted. 

I think this is getting to the point of needlessly divisive.

I was as much Nige in as anyone, and also as sceptical of Liam as anyone. The flaws that we’ve seen come out are pretty much the same ones that I’d flagged concerns about from game one, and the pattern has been of the forecast regression.

But that doesn’t mean I think anyone who wanted Pearson gone, or indeed saw decent signs in some of Mannings games needs to “own it”.  There is always a bias to want a new entrant to do well - it’s why you often see threads about how well the new signing has played. And for balance, you could argue that Southampton away (first half) was as good as we’d played all season at that point so you could argue positive signs.

All I think has happened is that some people (for whatever reason) believed we were right to make a change - and although I don’t agree - and they’ve taken the journey that the change we’ve made hasn’t been successful. That doesn’t mean that another coach wouldn’t have been a success replacing Nige. The inherent problem is not wanting Nige out, it’s a poor replacement. And I don’t recall anyone suggesting Manning before Niges sacking so we need to decouple the two.

But just as there is a false accusation levied at some about wanting Liam to fail to be “proven right” or being biased against him, it’s also false and misleading to say the people who saw positive signs need to own it, and caused what we’re in now. I have no issue with those people moving to Manning Out as those positive signs become fewer and further between.

Theres no point in having a mind if you’re not prepared to change it.

 

[Redrascal2]

On 18/03/2024 at 21:53, Nomad said:

If they do that it'll be Chris Hogg taking the reigns.....

What a thought.

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, Silvio Dante said:

I think this is getting to the point of needlessly divisive.

I was as much Nige in as anyone, and also as sceptical of Liam as anyone. The flaws that we’ve seen come out are pretty much the same ones that I’d flagged concerns about from game one, and the pattern has been of the forecast regression.

But that doesn’t mean I think anyone who wanted Pearson gone, or indeed saw decent signs in some of Mannings games needs to “own it”.  There is always a bias to want a new entrant to do well - it’s why you often see threads about how well the new signing has played. And for balance, you could argue that Southampton away (first half) was as good as we’d played all season at that point so you could argue positive signs.

All I think has happened is that some people (for whatever reason) believed we were right to make a change - and although I don’t agree - and they’ve taken the journey that the change we’ve made hasn’t been successful. That doesn’t mean that another coach wouldn’t have been a success replacing Nige. The inherent problem is not wanting Nige out, it’s a poor replacement. And I don’t recall anyone suggesting Manning before Niges sacking so we need to decouple the two.

But just as there is a false accusation levied at some about wanting Liam to fail to be “proven right” or being biased against him, it’s also false and misleading to say the people who saw positive signs need to own it, and caused what we’re in now. I have no issue with those people moving to Manning Out as those positive signs become fewer and further between.

Theres no point in having a mind if you’re not prepared to change it.

 

Not for me. There were people who were hijacking threads months ago, ruining some decent debate at the time, and they have now disappeared. One or two were even working for BS, that was demonstrated. There most definitely was a Pearson Out Mob who were keen to denigrate his contribution to barely zero and promise us we had just recruited the next Pep in lieu. They got their wish. 100% true that is. It's taken us back 18 months imo whether they wanted it to or not. These are the same bunch who say we should be careful what we wish for when anyone questions ownership. No sympathy for them tbh. That's just my view.

Yes, we are at a divisive point, that much is fact, some of the most divisive being the hierarchy of the club itself.

[Silvio Dante]

6 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Not for me. There were people who were hijacking threads months ago, ruining some decent debate at the time, and they have now disappeared. One or two were even working for BS, that was demonstrated. There most definitely was a Pearson Out Mob who were keen to denigrate his contribution to barely zero and promise us we had just recruited the next Pep in lieu. They got their wish. 100% true that is. It's taken us back 18 months imo whether they wanted it to or not. These are the same bunch who say we should be careful what we wish for when anyone questions ownership. No sympathy for them tbh. That's just my view.

Yes, we are at a divisive point, that much is fact, some of the most divisive being the hierarchy of the club itself.

For avoidance of doubt - Bristol Sport “bots”, those that support the board blindly and think their shit doesn’t stink - absolutely with you. But I’m not sure those people are necessarily the same ones who thought change was reasonable and also saw positive signs.

There is a divide fostered by the board. But I’m not sure everyone who wasn’t a fan of Nige should be tarred on one side of that.

[W-S-M Seagull]

6 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Not for me. There were people who were hijacking threads months ago, ruining some decent debate at the time, and they have now disappeared. One or two were even working for BS, that was demonstrated. There most definitely was a Pearson Out Mob who were keen to denigrate his contribution to barely zero and promise us we had just recruited the next Pep in lieu. They got their wish. 100% true that is. It's taken us back 18 months imo whether they wanted it to or not. These are the same bunch who say we should be careful what we wish for when anyone questions ownership. No sympathy for them tbh. That's just my view.

Yes, we are at a divisive point, that much is fact, some of the most divisive being the hierarchy of the club itself.

@Silvio Dante I can't really add much more than Uno has. They sum it up perfectly. 

The only thing I can add is that if for example I raised a concern about him being sacked by MK, I'd be mocked and receive personal abuse. 

Any genuine conversations were immediately shut down by these people because this guy was the next Pep. Anyone that raised concerns about the next Pep were trolled. It was brutal, it was toxic. They created that toxicity. 

Were not talking about these people just saying "yea I think Manning will be good for us" they deliberately set upon a campaign to cause tension and division. That's why they need to own this. But they wont. They have just disappeared. 

 

[W-S-M Seagull]

12 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

For avoidance of doubt - Bristol Sport “bots”, those that support the board blindly and think their shit doesn’t stink - absolutely with you. But I’m not sure those people are necessarily the same ones who thought change was reasonable and also saw positive signs.

There is a divide fostered by the board. But I’m not sure everyone who wasn’t a fan of Nige should be tarred on one side of that.

I think there is absolutely a correlation between those who were Nigels biggest critics also being Liam Mannings biggest fans. 

The club didn't need the bots. They had plenty of people going to war for them. 

These people fostered the North Korean culture that is rife at the club.

[Davefevs]

48 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

The inherent problem is not wanting Nige out, it’s a poor replacement.

Boom  

40 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Not for me. There were people who were hijacking threads months ago, ruining some decent debate at the time, and they have now disappeared. One or two were even working for BS, that was demonstrated. There most definitely was a Pearson Out Mob who were keen to denigrate his contribution to barely zero and promise us we had just recruited the next Pep in lieu. They got their wish. 100% true that is. It's taken us back 18 months imo whether they wanted it to or not. These are the same bunch who say we should be careful what we wish for when anyone questions ownership. No sympathy for them tbh. That's just my view.

Yes, we are at a divisive point, that much is fact, some of the most divisive being the hierarchy of the club itself.

True.

[TDarwall]

Whether Liam lasts 5 more minutes or 5 more years, this is what will happen when we appoint his replacement;

A small % will instantly dislike the replacement & will find it hard to shake that, whatever he does. On balance this group will be proved right, most of our managers fail.

Another small % will be totally pro the new replacement (either as they really like him or his type).

These 2 small groups will make a lot of noise & drown out the majority who'll generally support the new bloke as him doing well makes their Saturdays much more fun.

I've already covered my bases with fiver each on Frank Lampard & Mark Robins to be our next boss #itk

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, TDarwall said:

Whether Liam lasts 5 more minutes or 5 more years, this is what will happen when we appoint his replacement;

A small % will instantly dislike the replacement & will find it hard to shake that, whatever he does. On balance this group will be proved right, most of our managers fail.

Another small % will be totally pro the new replacement (either as they really like him or his type).

These 2 small groups will make a lot of noise & drown out the majority who'll generally support the new bloke as him doing well makes their Saturdays much more fun.

I've already covered my bases with fiver each on Frank Lampard & Mark Robins to be our next boss #itk

Can't agree.

An element of shall we say disquiet about the change was that it was uncalled for, unnecessary etc.

Assuming the appointment of the next manager isn't a polarising figure, a known flop or perhaps with ties yo Bristol Rovers, I suspect most if not all will welcome it..

Put it this way I don't think there will be a forlorn thinking back to Manning.

[Selred]

1 hour ago, TDarwall said:

Whether Liam lasts 5 more minutes or 5 more years, this is what will happen when we appoint his replacement;

A small % will instantly dislike the replacement & will find it hard to shake that, whatever he does. On balance this group will be proved right, most of our managers fail.

Another small % will be totally pro the new replacement (either as they really like him or his type).

These 2 small groups will make a lot of noise & drown out the majority who'll generally support the new bloke as him doing well makes their Saturdays much more fun.

I've already covered my bases with fiver each on Frank Lampard & Mark Robins to be our next boss #itk

Most managers fail. Not just ours.

[Merrick's Marvels]

4 hours ago, Selred said:

No, I think we need to move Manning, Tinnion and JL on to reverse our current trajactory.

But I also don't think the club is at rock bottom. It's not the worst I've seen it.

It may be a sinking ship, but it's because of the Captains, not because there's a massive hole in it. It's got a lot of potential.

We've always had potential - it's why we turned professional in 1897.

Fulfilling it would be nice - 125+ years and counting!

[Unan]

On 19/03/2024 at 09:39, Monkeh said:

Here's a question

Would changing the head coach make a difference where you have a technical director dictating to you how you must play and who you will sign,

It won't an entire change of approach is needed,

The ideas behind it are sound but there's too much power concentrated in one area which is why it's failing 

I know that the higher-ups are saying the style of play is set above the head coach; the head coach must fit into our model and play our way, etc., etc., blah blah.

However, it’s just not true, is it? Either Manning's bosses are doing an awful job of managing him, and he won’t listen to them regarding changes, or they honestly think he’s trying to play that way and have just appointed the completely wrong person.

Either way, I guess it can be considered promising that despite what they say about how we will play, a new head coach will probably just play his own way anyway.

[TDarwall]

30 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Can't agree.

An element of shall we say disquiet about the change was that it was uncalled for, unnecessary etc.

Assuming the appointment of the next manager isn't a polarising figure, a known flop or perhaps with ties yo Bristol Rovers, I suspect most if not all will welcome it..

Put it this way I don't think there will be a forlorn thinking back to Manning.

As someone who is a no's man Pop, I thought you'd notice the phrase "a small %"!

Totally agree about the unnecessary sacking of Nige which has of course amplified things. However, I maintain there are a small % that will instantly want / not want whoever is the new boss & they'll struggle to remove their bias.

Unless of course they appoint Holloway & we can all agree its the end of the world.

[Davefevs]

30 minutes ago, Unan said:

I know that the higher-ups are saying the style of play is set above the head coach; the head coach must fit into our model and play our way, etc., etc., blah blah.

However, it’s just not true, is it? Either Manning's bosses are doing an awful job of managing him, and he won’t listen to them regarding changes, or they honestly think he’s trying to play that way and have just appointed the completely wrong person.

Either way, I guess it can be considered promising that despite what they say about how we will play, a new head coach will probably just play his own way anyway.

Yep, a simple:

• they wanted a,b,c,d
• They appointed a bloke who they thought because he’s young, progressive, modern and on the grass, would give them a,b,c,d
• but now they find out that they got a someone who aspires to x,y,z but is struggling to deliver that and the real kick in the nuts…
• is relying on the good bits of the bloke he took over from to keep his head above water (for now)

Key:

a = Front foot

b = high press

c = forward thinking 

d = attacking football

x = mid / low block

y = defensively focussed / passive

z = patient build-up to create chances

I think it really shows huge ignorance of what they had in place, a lack of understanding of why they felt the need to change, then a lack of competence in specifying what they wanted, and finally a failure to find someone to fit the brief.

A four slice shit sandwich!