Performance or results

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

4 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Always performances, regardless of what stage of the season we're at.

Look after the performances and the results will look after themselves.

That's a common fallacy. Just like the tosh that decisions will even out over the season....they don't! I understand that people want to be entertained but flashy football doesnt always cut the mustard at this level. You have to get the boring basics right and earn the right to play because nobody is going to roll over. Some on here seen to want Manning to go gung-ho bombing forward like kids in the school playground and hang the result as it no longer matters. Every game matters! I'd like us to win every one of the last 5 games and finish with 69 points. It'd be nice if all were won by 3 goals or more and included volleys, overhead kicks and rebolas but if we scrape a 1-0 with a shot going 5 yards wide until it deflected off the ugly centre backs arse that'll do for me. Give me promotion with 30 1-0 wins over relegation with 30 3-2 defeats any day of the week. 

[ExiledAjax]

15 minutes ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

That's a common fallacy. Just like the tosh that decisions will even out over the season....they don't! I understand that people want to be entertained but flashy football doesnt always cut the mustard at this level. You have to get the boring basics right and earn the right to play because nobody is going to roll over. Some on here seen to want Manning to go gung-ho bombing forward like kids in the school playground and hang the result as it no longer matters. Every game matters! I'd like us to win every one of the last 5 games and finish with 69 points. It'd be nice if all were won by 3 goals or more and included volleys, overhead kicks and rebolas but if we scrape a 1-0 with a shot going 5 yards wide until it deflected off the ugly centre backs arse that'll do for me. Give me promotion with 30 1-0 wins over relegation with 30 3-2 defeats any day of the week. 

As I say

3 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Yes absolutely. A "good performance" doesn't necessarily mean you play "front foot football", or that you get a clean sheet, or that you dominate a team. I'd say it just means you play the best you can within the circumstances and context of the match. 

Do you effectively deliver and execute a plan, and is that plan the right one for that game?

Focussing on performances is not "tosh".

Is also like promotion with 30 1-0 wins. However, if all of those were like the win v Swansea then I'd be worried about getting a big fat 0 points in our following season, because we'd look like absolute frauds.

[Back of the Dolman]

3 hours ago, The Fat Controller said:

Absolutely agree. 

All of our forwards would be better off played in a genuine two. Including Weimann. 

Agreed, and I think people would probably have a better appreciation of Harry Cornick if he was played in a two 

[Engvall’s Splinter]

In the remaining games, I’d like to see us set out to win the games and make it obvious we are trying to do so. Some real attacking intent and entertainment. 
 

There is very little pressure, therefore players should feel comfortable expressing themselves and gambling a little. If they can’t be encouraged / coached to open up now - they never will be. 

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

What makes you happiest when you are walking away from a match at Ashton Gate?  Having played poorly but scraped a victory; or having played well and lost.  I know which I prefer.

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

21 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

As I say

Focussing on performances is not "tosh".

Is also like promotion with 30 1-0 wins. However, if all of those were like the win v Swansea then I'd be worried about getting a big fat 0 points in our following season, because we'd look like absolute frauds.

I never said focusing on performances was tosh. If you read the post correctly you would see that was a reference to decisions evening out over the season. 

[BrizzleRed]

5 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

What makes you happiest when you are walking away from a match at Ashton Gate?  Having played poorly but scraped a victory; or having played well and lost.  I know which I prefer.

If we’re playing poorly most of the time, we’re statistically far more likely to be “walking away after a match at Ashton Gate” having lost, rather than won.

If we’re more often playing well, the win to defeat ratios are likely to be reversed, so in fhe longer term, better performances are likely going yield better results.  

One ugly win game taken in isolation doesn’t make a season, does it.

[marmite]

19 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

As I say

Focussing on performances is not "tosh".

Is also like promotion with 30 1-0 wins. However, if all of those were like the win v Swansea then I'd be worried about getting a big fat 0 points in our following season, because we'd look like absolute frauds.

You could go all season unbeaten and get relegated if you drew every game. i.e.  46 points, so its not all about results. Give me performance and entertainment every time.

[Corkonian]

Manning's got a chance to show us what he's got in store for next season with nothing at stake right now. It's all about stepping up, performing, and growing in these games.

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

I never said focusing on performances was tosh. If you read the post correctly you would see that was a reference to decisions evening out over the season. 

In fairness it doesn’t read like that.

@ExiledAjax’s quoted post after your reply is what he meant / said. Performance does not equal flash, flowing football.  It might do, but it doesn’t have to.

But I’ll let you and Ajax debate this one.

[MarcusX]

1 hour ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

That's a common fallacy. Just like the tosh that decisions will even out over the season....they don't! I understand that people want to be entertained but flashy football doesnt always cut the mustard at this level. You have to get the boring basics right and earn the right to play because nobody is going to roll over. Some on here seen to want Manning to go gung-ho bombing forward like kids in the school playground and hang the result as it no longer matters. Every game matters! I'd like us to win every one of the last 5 games and finish with 69 points. It'd be nice if all were won by 3 goals or more and included volleys, overhead kicks and rebolas but if we scrape a 1-0 with a shot going 5 yards wide until it deflected off the ugly centre backs arse that'll do for me. Give me promotion with 30 1-0 wins over relegation with 30 3-2 defeats any day of the week. 

I think you’re confusing what most mean by a good performance.

It doesn’t need to be “flashy”.

As I said above, 1-0 wins all season would do me fine, but if that’s where you’ve had 40% possession and your keepers got man of the match for making 7 saves then you’ve probably rode your luck rather than a good performance. Can be ok as a one off, but Do that every week and you probably won’t be winning the game very often.

Don’t even need to look back far for an example. Beating Leicester 1-0 was a good performance, beating Swansea 1-0 was not.

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, marmite said:

You could go all season unbeaten and get relegated if you drew every game. i.e.  46 points, so its not all about results. Give me performance and entertainment every time.

Not really.

You'd be pretty unlikely to get relegated with 46. In most leagues, most divisions and most seasons, 1 point per game just about keeps you up.

1 hour ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

I never said focusing on performances was tosh. If you read the post correctly you would see that was a reference to decisions evening out over the season. 

Ok sorry. Although...that's also not "tosh" imo.

[IAmNick]

2 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

What makes you happiest when you are walking away from a match at Ashton Gate?  Having played poorly but scraped a victory; or having played well and lost.  I know which I prefer.

It's actually a difficult question to answer imo.  It's very different on an individual basis compared to over a season.

I can take a few crap 1-0s each season, and even celebrate them. I mean the really dire, boring possession without intent, fluke goal from nothing type.

But if I'm having to watch that every week then no thanks. I won't be walking away happy unless we're absolutely smashing it in the league as a result. Even then I'm not sure.

"Poor" football that gets results? Like Gary maybe, Warnock, or whatever - sign me up. That's exciting even if it's perhaps not for the purists. I couldn't care less there.

It's 85% result for me but there is a limit.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

 

"Poor" football that gets results? Like Gary maybe, Warnock, or whatever - sign me up. That's exciting even if it's perhaps not for the purists. I couldn't care less there.

 

There is a real snobbery against more direct / bits n pieces football.  But if you can’t compete by matching a passing style, why would you, you’d try to find another way, wouldn’t you?

[IAmNick]

Just now, Davefevs said:

There is a real snobbery against more direct / bits n pieces football.  But if you can’t compete by matching a passing style, why would you, you’d try to find another way, wouldn’t you?

Yeah I agree. I can remember a few years ago lots of negative comments about how Cardiff played... And tbh it was crap. But if you looked at their forum or spoke to their fans they loved it. Direct balls up the pitch ("long balls", whatever), aggressive players, and goals. Give me some of that!

I think the metric I care about most is how fast the ball moves up the pitch. If that's many quick short passes, incisive through balls on the counter, or long balls I don't really care. It's exciting.

[Davefevs]

Just now, IAmNick said:

Yeah I agree. I can remember a few years ago lots of negative comments about how Cardiff played... And tbh it was crap. But if you looked at their forum or spoke to their fans they loved it. Direct balls up the pitch ("long balls", whatever), aggressive players, and goals. Give me some of that!

I think the metric I care about most is how fast the ball moves up the pitch. If that's many quick short passes, incisive through balls on the counter, or long balls I don't really care. It's exciting.

That Cardiff team is my “go-to” example.  A team aligned in its plan, executing it well.  And hard to play against too.

[mozo]

The crazy thing about this debate is that if City beat Blackburn (big IF as it'll be a tough game), irrespective of the performance, that would be 13 points from 6 games, which is incredible form. And yet we'll still be talking about whether Manning is out of his depth.

Obviously, if we don't win, then this post redundant, but it's food for thought.

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, mozo said:

The crazy thing about this debate is that if City beat Blackburn (big IF as it'll be a tough game), irrespective of the performance, that would be 13 points from 6 games, which is incredible form. And yet we'll still be talking about whether Manning is out of his depth.

Obviously, if we don't win, then this post redundant, but it's food for thought.

Very true.

With all these trends it’s about what happened before and then what happens after….and results tend to follow the underlying at some point, whether they’re catching them up from above, or catching them up from below.

[Woofyourkipper]

8 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

I want to see that we can impose ourselves on teams and not be passive and wait for the opposition to let us play. 
If we get performances, they would likely lead to results, but I want to see signs that next year will be worth the effort of going. 
Yesterday was an awful watch , Dickie missing was massive and so many having off days couldn't be expected. But after good early positive subs Vs Plymouth , we were back to waiting for 60 minutes and changing players and not plans. 
We could have put TC on for Twine and play 2 up top or 1 & 1 , anything to give them more problems. We were better in the 2nd half, but it felt like hanging on to what we had , rather than trying to win the game. With nothing really hanging on the result, that is disappointing . 

Not sure if Mehmeti got a knock , but swapping him for Cornick was odd . AM had supplied a few of the more interesting moments , if he had to come off we could have had another look at the other loanee . If Mebude isn't going to play from the bench and isn't going to play for U21s , I'm not sure why he hasn't been sent back. 

Thought mehmeti was subbed at half time with mcCrorie coming on,or my eye sight is that bad from up in the stands

[watkins1983]

9 hours ago, Back of the Dolman said:

Do you really think that he would change anything preseason if we finished with five boring 1-0 Swansea style wins ?

That would be seen as his style and beliefs being the right ones and bringing results.

If that happened then buckle up for more of the same next season !

If we could break down the poorer football playing teams 1-0 not playing well and get wins and good performances against the better teams then I would take that all day long as we would probably end up in the play offs! 

[Back of the Dolman]

18 minutes ago, watkins1983 said:

If we could break down the poorer football playing teams 1-0 not playing well and get wins and good performances against the better teams then I would take that all day long as we would probably end up in the play offs! 

But we haven’t shown that we can consistently break down and beat the poorer sides and in all honesty is that how we want to go on, scraping some poor wins and putting on the odd performance against the so called bigger sides in the league ? 
That really won’t get us in the play offs as it’s far too inconsistent.

It’s all to risk averse and calculated and that’s why we aren’t breaking teams down.

I remember vividly after the Swansea game which was a dire football match that LM said in his post match interview that he wanted to ensure we were still in the game at half time !

Well with all due respect to them we were playing Swansea not Man City.

To me it feels a very conservative and negative approach and that is a very hard mindset to get out of when you then go one down or it’s goalless with a couple of minutes to go.

[mozo]

31 minutes ago, Back of the Dolman said:

But we haven’t shown that we can consistently break down and beat the poorer sides and in all honesty is that how we want to go on, scraping some poor wins and putting on the odd performance against the so called bigger sides in the league ? 
That really won’t get us in the play offs as it’s far too inconsistent.

It’s all to risk averse and calculated and that’s why we aren’t breaking teams down.

I remember vividly after the Swansea game which was a dire football match that LM said in his post match interview that he wanted to ensure we were still in the game at half time !

Well with all due respect to them we were playing Swansea not Man City.

To me it feels a very conservative and negative approach and that is a very hard mindset to get out of when you then go one down or it’s goalless with a couple of minutes to go.

I think people forget the context of the Swansea game. We had just lost four games on the trot, and whilst the previous performance at Ipswich had been pretty good, we suffered two crushing late goals to lose the game.

So roll on to a home game, with a crowd ready to turn toxic, and players devoid of confidence...

Manning decided to be pragmatic. Now, personally I'd rather we had engaged higher up the pitch and not stood off the Swansea defence when they had the ball, but it was a tactic that Manning had used successfully in other games; let them have them have the ball in non-threatening areas, then squeeze them as soon as they try play forwards, and hit them on the break.

The reason the game was a tough watch wasn't just the tentative press, it was the fact that our players were playing with fear, having had their confidence drain away. That happens in football. It happened to Liverpool last season and even Klopp with all his personality was struggling to fix it. 

So, the fact that we won was enough. It was the turning point which has seen that confidence return, albeit we can still be unsettled.

It was a really hard watch though. 

 

Edited April 7 by mozo

[Davefevs]

23 minutes ago, mozo said:

I think people forget the context of the Swansea game. We had just lost four games on the trot, and whilst the previous performance at Ipswich had been pretty good, we suffered two crushing late goals to lose the game.

So roll on to a home game, with a crowd ready to turn toxic, and players devoid of confidence...

Manning decided to be pragmatic. Now, personally I'd rather we had engaged higher up the pitch and not stood off the Swansea defence when they had the ball, but it was a tactic that Manning had used successfully in other games; let them have them have the ball in non-threatening areas, then squeeze them as soon as they try play forwards, and hit them on the break.

The reason the game was a tough watch wasn't just the tentative press, it was the fact that our players were playing with fear, having had their confidence drain away. That happens in football. It happened to Liverpool last season and even Klopp with all his personality was struggling to fix it. 

So, the fact that we won was enough. It was the turning point which has seen that confidence return, albeit we can still be unsettled.

It was a really hard watch though. 

 

Which never happened either!

[downendcity]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

There is a real snobbery against more direct / bits n pieces football.  But if you can’t compete by matching a passing style, why would you, you’d try to find another way, wouldn’t you?

I remember a story about Alan Hansen when he signed for Liverpool.

Shortly after signing he was stood by Bob Paisley watching a full scale practice match. Paisley asked him what he thought and Hansen replied, saying that watching the game he hadn't realised that Liverpool was a long ball team.

"We're not" answered Paisley, " we don't play long ball, we play the right ball".

 

 

[mozo]

1 minute ago, downendcity said:

I remember a story about Alan Hansen when he signed for Liverpool.

Shortly after signing he was stood by Bob Paisley watching a full scale practice match. Paisley asked him what he thought and Hansen replied, saying that watching the game he hadn't realised that Liverpool was a long ball team.

"We're not" answered Paisley, " we don't play long ball, we play the right ball".

 

 

Our problem is we play the wrong ball too often!

[22A]

20 hours ago, Robbored said:

We’ll certainly be a Championship club next season and I’d to see us finish as high as possible this time around .

Agreed. Does the club receive more from the EFL for finishing 7thrather than 17th?

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, 22A said:

Agreed. Does the club receive more from the EFL for finishing 7thrather than 17th?

No

[Superjack]

On 07/04/2024 at 11:05, Davefevs said:

Apparently attacking intent only comes if the opposition allow that.  It’s not about “us”, according to Hoggy (who sings from the same hymn sheet as Manning).

That’s a slightly facetious comment, but with a large element of truth about it.

That’s what we have, a team / game-plan based on what the opposition allow us, rather than us imposing our style / identity.

I can’t wait!  

Bang on. 

And the main reason that the LJ MKII comments have some credibility to them.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Superjack said:

Bang on. 

And the main reason that the LJ MKII comments have some credibility to them.

I refuse to comment.

[Superjack]

On 07/04/2024 at 11:41, Back of the Dolman said:

I don’t get the impression LM is of a mind to change what he’s doing and what he believes 

If that's the case,then it isn't good enough. 

'Proper' managers (as @Robbored would say) look at what they have and adapt. 

Like the last one did (Sorry,not sorry).