Signs of change or pressure off?

[bpexile]

10 hours ago, Ian M said:

He doesn’t need to go to the bother. I already banned him. And the new account he made after.

[Dastardly and Muttley]

13 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I hope the majority of the recent performances are the “new norm”, guess we’ll know more again after Huddersfield on Saturday.  Sunderland last Saturday was bloody poor, despite the 0-0.

And I think that’s where we’ll be with Manning. Some great performances, some dire, mostly average. Probably good enough to finish midtable, never quite bad enough to be sacked. Perpetual Bristol City.

[Red-Robbo]

3 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Not knocking Tommy at all but it was as simple a finish as you will ever get in a 1 v 1. Because of the mistake by Hyam the keeper was in a poor position and literally gave Tommy the whole side of the goal to aim at. A player of his ability literally could not miss........in fact I would have been disappointed to miss that myself (accepting it would be a possibility)!! 

I felt sorry for Pears to be honest. Any keeper playing behind that back-four deserves some sort of bonus to make up for the short term harm it will do for his career. Even on back passes he had balls played back to him and then the player would "hide" behind the line of a City player so he couldn't receive it back. He would have walked off last night absolutely raging and probably had a right rant in the dressing room afterwards. There was so much "wrong" about Blackburn last night it was untrue. If they were trying to get Eustace sacked they might have made it less obvious......................

Agree on Mehmeti that whatever the rights and wrongs of the defending it was a very good bit of play that opened up a second half that had been a bit drab to that point.

 

It was a simple finish, but it was possible because we were repeatedly up there and Tom was quick to pounce on the mistake. Nakhi managed to give the keeper an option when he was clear through in a one-on-one in the same position in the second half. 

Quite why Blackburn were so bad is interesting. They aren't a great side, but haven't been that bad all season. It might just be a case of everything going wrong for them and us doing everything right. "The perfect storm". I remember seeing us get demoralised when we've conceded from an obvious defensive balls-up and after penalties too, so I think the first half double whammy knocked their individual confidence to play. Amazing how professionals can begin to doubt themselves, but it happens.

All that said, there was a period of about 15 minutes after half-time when they more than matched us - their subs had strengthened their midfield and the #2 in particular was giving us problems that the man he'd replaced never had.  It's the story of the night that we easily absorbed the pressure and when we replaced our own tiring players, the results were spectacular. 

[Alessandro]

1 hour ago, Red-Robbo said:

I don't think we were "gift wrapped" goals. Hyams may have been poor but both pens and his under-pressure back pass came because we were pressing high and continuously. For his first,  Conway still needed to be alert to the possibility and bury it. I've seen us miss plenty of possible interceptions. As for Mehmeti's goal, there was nothing gift wrapped about it in my opinion. After robbing the defender he had to hold him off, take it into the box, wrong-foot another defender and shoot from an angle to avoid a third. It was pure skill. 

You don't fluke a 5-0. It comes because you were playing well - as well as them playing poorly. 

As I said on another thread, you lose 5 nil if you collapse or meet a far superior team.
Blackburn have the 2nd worse defence in the league and we’ve got the 8th worst goals scored in the league, so, it clicked for us last night, but they were awful. For our level of football those are gift wrapped chances.

Credit for our running and energy in the channels, but the first two goals didn’t come from a press but from balls over the top. From a defensive perspective, they both should have been cleared easily. First goal, awful first touch actually (it was a mis control, not back pass IMO) to let Tommy in. Second, mis-kick then reckless diving challenge when the angle was tight for Sykes anyway.

Third was good pressing, but Mehmeti isn’t outmuscling Hyam, he’s misjudged it and played for a foul and gone down like a child. Very poor. Then his team mates seem to wait for the whistle and just watch - lovely skill and finish from Anis to capitalise though. 

4th - I mean, come on.

5th - lovely goal, but they'd collapsed. 

[Davefevs]

23 minutes ago, mozo said:

I sense there will be a misconception that we can only win with a high press, which I don't believe is the case. We can use a block too, it's just about how you execute it. 

And when.

There is definitely a case for “sterile games aren’t the right way” though.  The 60 mins v Swansea a case in point.

This caught my eye earlier:

Variety / Mix.

I talk about disrupting the opposition.  Not just high pressing either, turning a back-4 around by going in behind gives you that “unpredictability”, disrupts your opponents set plans.

[mozo]

23 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Not knocking Tommy at all but it was as simple a finish as you will ever get in a 1 v 1. Because of the mistake by Hyam the keeper was in a poor position and literally gave Tommy the whole side of the goal to aim at. A player of his ability literally could not miss........in fact I would have been disappointed to miss that myself (accepting it would be a possibility)!! 

I felt sorry for Pears to be honest. Any keeper playing behind that back-four deserves some sort of bonus to make up for the short term harm it will do for his career. Even on back passes he had balls played back to him and then the player would "hide" behind the line of a City player so he couldn't receive it back. He would have walked off last night absolutely raging and probably had a right rant in the dressing room afterwards. There was so much "wrong" about Blackburn last night it was untrue. If they were trying to get Eustace sacked they might have made it less obvious......................

Agree on Mehmeti that whatever the rights and wrongs of the defending it was a very good bit of play that opened up a second half that had been a bit drab to that point.

You definitely wouldn't have scored the Mehmeti goal! 

[Red-Robbo]

3 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

As I said on another thread, you lose 5 nil if you collapse or meet a far superior team.
Blackburn have the 2nd worse defence in the league and we’ve got the 8th worst goals scored in the league, so, it clicked for us last night, but they were awful. For our level of football those are gift wrapped chances.

Credit for our running and energy in the channels, but the first two goals didn’t come from a press but from balls over the top. From a defensive perspective, they both should have been cleared easily. First goal, awful first touch actually (it was a mis control, not back pass IMO) to let Tommy in. Second, mis-kick then reckless diving challenge when the angle was tight for Sykes anyway.

Third was good pressing, but Mehmeti isn’t outmuscling Hyam, he’s misjudged it and played for a foul and gone down like a child. Very poor. Then his team mates seem to wait for the whistle and just watch - lovely skill and finish from Anis to capitalise though. 

4th - I mean, come on.

5th - lovely goal, but they'd collapsed. 

 

To my mind, a "press" includes strategic balls over the top. It wasn't as if we were lumping it up from our half a la Pulis. We played on the front foot more or less from the off. Totally agree that they gave away stupid penalties. But then, most are...  Silvio is right to give credit to a ref who called them correctly particularly when others might've ignored the handball "because I've already given them one".  

[mozo]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

And when.

There is definitely a case for “sterile games aren’t the right way” though.  The 60 mins v Swansea a case in point.

This caught my eye earlier:

Variety / Mix.

I talk about disrupting the opposition.  Not just high pressing either, turning a back-4 around by going in behind gives you that “unpredictability”, disrupts your opponents set plans.

Yeah and my high press comment is not aimed at you or the more analytical fans!

[chinapig]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

A lot of talk of high press last night, and yet our opening two goals came from defensive errors, albeit forwards latching into balls into channel.  One a weak backpass, the other missed control / volley.

But what we did was condense the pitch, more than press hard per se.  Blackburn occasionally broke the line of our front 3, but with Pring and McCrorie playing quite high, they were suffocated.  Our front 3 split their back 4 really well.  Blackburn were able to knock it about but they went nowhere.

Second half, they went to a back-3 and for 20+ minutes it was stalemate, they had possession, we just didn’t let them get back into the game (nice job done, no need to risk a 2-0 lead).

Then the subs came on, and we ripped them a new one.

Condensing the pitch is what we didn’t do on Saturday, do did we work as a team.

If we aren’t (generally) that creative in build-up, then best way is to win it high up.  I think a few of us have been crying out for this.  It doesn’t need to be reckless, last night was efficient to say the say the least.  And with Joe Williams and Jason Knight ready to pounce on balls into midfield, we gained a lot of ball / possession in their half, before they could set.

As Jurgen Klopp said, a high press is the best number 10.

[Numero Uno]

4 minutes ago, mozo said:

You definitely wouldn't have scored the Mehmeti goal! 

True, I might have got the ball off Hyam though.............before hitting the Heineken Lounge Entrance Door.

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

14 hours ago, HunstantonRed said:

A new manager needs time. Players need time too.

If you assume the starting position is terrible (we did have a short-term injury crisis), you need to give the new manager some time. Still, in this instance, his position was almost immediately better than his predecessor, and most fans were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in not tarring him with any responsibility for the nature of Pearson's exit.  That said, he had an indifferent run, combined with a decent cup run, followed by some horrible form for 14 games and this current uptick, combined with a very iffy/pointless expenditure of money on Mabude.  I'm very nervous about giving him a budget and a preseason, allowing him to shape the squad; after the Cardiff game, I would have fired his ass if I'm honest, that said if he stays, I'll judge his impact after the first ten games of next season, as with no pressure its hard to tell what the current mindset of the players is.

Would you let Jon know I would like a free season ticket for my Nephew cheers ? 

[George Rs]

38 minutes ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

If you assume the starting position is terrible (we did have a short-term injury crisis), you need to give the new manager some time. Still, in this instance, his position was almost immediately better than his predecessor, and most fans were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in not tarring him with any responsibility for the nature of Pearson's exit.  That said, he had an indifferent run, combined with a decent cup run, followed by some horrible form for 14 games and this current uptick, combined with a very iffy/pointless expenditure of money on Mabude.  I'm very nervous about giving him a budget and a preseason, allowing him to shape the squad; after the Cardiff game, I would have fired his ass if I'm honest, that said if he stays, I'll judge his impact after the first ten games of next season, as with no pressure its hard to tell what the current mindset of the players is.

Would you let Jon know I would like a free season ticket for my Nephew cheers ? 

Don’t understand these no pressure comments? 

Before the last 6 games, we were on a 4 game losing streak and half this forum thought we were sliding into a relegation battle + we’re relentlessly complaining we couldn’t beat a side below us. 

For all his faults LM follows that up with 13/16 points and beats 3 teams below us. Most of the wins in varying setups as well, showing a tactical flexibility many said he didn’t have. 

I’m all for calling someone out when they’ve done something wrong/can’t do something but you have to be able to say fair enough when they do it right. 

A lot of LMs flaws have been quite soundly answered recently, one of the only ones remaining is consistency which has hounded every city manager since 14/15. 

No matter the starting position a new manager will need time, a little more when it’s their first time at this level. Should that have been a reason for the board not to hire LM? Probably. But we did get him so that’s pointless. And why on earth would he need the benefit of the doubt regarding Pearsons exit? Nothing to do with him. I was as furious as most about NPs exit but it has no relevance to LMs tenure. 

Every transfer window sees misses, from Lois Diony to Kane wilson. The key is whether they are exceptions or expectations. 

Edited April 11 by George Rs

[sh1t_ref_again]

Seems to be the opinion on here by some that we were lucky and only won because Blackburn did not show up and gifted us 5 goals

Sorry but it was our players work rate and pressure that made them look poor, snuffed out the attacks and forced the errors

Perhaps try and give some credit rather than we won BUT!!!

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

Seems to be the opinion on here by some that we were lucky and only won because Blackburn did not show up and gifted us 5 goals

Don’t recall seeing one post of that nature.  Anyone else?

[Robbored]

22 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Don’t recall seeing one post of that nature.  Anyone else?

Nope - that’s probably because they’re not any Dave.

However Blackburn were defensively all over the place and City took advantage of Hynam having a desperately rotten night - you can only beat what’s in front of you as they say.

Edited April 11 by Robbored

[Numero Uno]

17 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Don’t recall seeing one post of that nature.  Anyone else?

The first poster to use the word lucky was the poster moaning at people calling us lucky........................

We finished superbly, we pressed/condensed play, call it what you want superbly AND Blackburn were absolute litter. All three are a fact but some are so sensitive of perceived criticism of the manager that you ain't allowed to say it.

From my personal perspective I've got no issue with Liam at all if he keeps producing and/or showing signs that long term he can do the job. The only person I have an irrational desire to **** out of it is Tinnion, and no circumstance whatsoever and comment by anyone on here changes that.

[Alessandro]

10 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

To my mind, a "press" includes strategic balls over the top. It wasn't as if we were lumping it up from our half a la Pulis. We played on the front foot more or less from the off. Totally agree that they gave away stupid penalties. But then, most are...  Silvio is right to give credit to a ref who called them correctly particularly when others might've ignored the handball "because I've already given them one".  

I kind of know what you’re saying but for me a high press, say from a goal kick being played out from back, which results in a turnover from a good press is different to a ball into the channel IMO which isn’t a press.

The intensity and intent however is the same granted, willingness to run those channels and force mistakes with your pace and positioning yes, but that’s not a press. A straight out foot race between defender and attacker is not the same as the modern press. Regardless of if the attackers intent can force a mistake, like a poor touch or back pass.

[Red-Robbo]

4 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

I kind of know what you’re saying but for me a high press, say from a goal kick being played out from back, which results in a turnover from a good press is different to a ball into the channel IMO which isn’t a press.

The intensity and intent however is the same granted, willingness to run those channels and force mistakes with your pace and positioning yes, but that’s not a press. A straight out foot race between defender and attacker is not the same as the modern press. Regardless of if the attackers intent can force a mistake, like a poor touch or back pass.

 

Fair enough. and having rewatched Conway's goal, I think you're right: the ball isn't trapped by Hyam but bounces off him and TC pounces.  Still needs good composure from Conway to seize the chance. Another 20 seconds and it's safe for Blackburn.

[transfer reader]

3 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

To my mind, a "press" includes strategic balls over the top. It wasn't as if we were lumping it up from our half a la Pulis. We played on the front foot more or less from the off. Totally agree that they gave away stupid penalties. But then, most are...  Silvio is right to give credit to a ref who called them correctly particularly when others might've ignored the handball "because I've already given them one".  

 

12 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

I kind of know what you’re saying but for me a high press, say from a goal kick being played out from back, which results in a turnover from a good press is different to a ball into the channel IMO which isn’t a press.

The intensity and intent however is the same granted, willingness to run those channels and force mistakes with your pace and positioning yes, but that’s not a press. A straight out foot race between defender and attacker is not the same as the modern press. Regardless of if the attackers intent can force a mistake, like a poor touch or back pass.

There was a coaches voice or similar video where a manager (possibly Dyche, but don't hold me to that) talked about a game where they deliberately conceded possession with a ball into the channel, with the intention of then pressing high.

Idea being they'd press up high while the opposition were still regrouping from the turnover, and try to catch people out of position in the process.

 

I know that's not necessarily what we were doing last night, just a point about how a long ball into the channel and a high press aren't exclusive and can be utilised together.

[Alessandro]

15 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Fair enough. and having rewatched Conway's goal, I think you're right: the ball isn't trapped by Hyam but bounces off him and TC pounces.  Still needs good composure from Conway to seize the chance. Another 20 seconds and it's safe for Blackburn.

 

6 minutes ago, transfer reader said:

 

There was a coaches voice or similar video where a manager (possibly Dyche, but don't hold me to that) talked about a game where they deliberately conceded possession with a ball into the channel, with the intention of then pressing high.

Idea being they'd press up high while the opposition were still regrouping from the turnover, and try to catch people out of position in the process.

 

I know that's not necessarily what we were doing last night, just a point about how a long ball into the channel and a high press aren't exclusive and can be utilised together.

 out of likes today

It was clearly a tactic last night and it was executed excellently - regardless of their mistakes. 

[Alessandro]

2 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

The first poster to use the word lucky was the poster moaning at people calling us lucky........................

We finished superbly, we pressed/condensed play, call it what you want superbly AND Blackburn were absolute litter. All three are a fact but some are so sensitive of perceived criticism of the manager that you ain't allowed to say it.

From my personal perspective I've got no issue with Liam at all if he keeps producing and/or showing signs that long term he can do the job. The only person I have an irrational desire to **** out of it is Tinnion, and no circumstance whatsoever and comment by anyone on here changes that.

Thank you, good post - this is the reality - not some sensitive nonsense about people apparently saying, which I haven’t seen, that we were lucky, just because we’re discussing us capitalising on school boy defending. 

[transfer reader]

10 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

 

 out of likes today

It was clearly a tactic last night and it was executed excellently - regardless of their mistakes. 

Yeah, the not necessarily part was because, if I remember right, the video was a Burnley win vs Man City or similar.

So an extremely low possession game plan from the start with that being their main out.

So similarities, just not identical.

[Cowshed]

18 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

 

 out of likes today

It was clearly a tactic last night and it was executed excellently - regardless of their mistakes. 

First was an out ball stuck out the exit. The second resulted from an attempted pass. 

Tactic executed excellently. Not really. 

[Alessandro]

49 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

First was an out ball stuck out the exit. The second resulted from an attempted pass. 

Tactic executed excellently. Not really. 

I bow to your superior tactical knowledge! 

I was referring more to the tactic of running the channels and looking to capitalise from that, which worked for the first two goals at least. 
 

EDIT - given we’re discussing “how good city were” vs “how bad Blackburn were” - in terms of the 5-0 win - what’s your opinion?

Edited April 11 by Alessandro

[Superjack]

3 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

From my personal perspective I've got no issue with Liam at all if he keeps producing and/or showing signs that long term he can do the job. The only person I have an irrational desire to **** out of it is Tinnion, and no circumstance whatsoever and comment by anyone on here changes that.

This is exactly my perspective too. 

Except with me it is Tinnion AND the people above him.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Fair enough. and having rewatched Conway's goal, I think you're right: the ball isn't trapped by Hyam but bounces off him and TC pounces.  Still needs good composure from Conway to seize the chance. Another 20 seconds and it's safe for Blackburn.

On watching last night I thought Hyam tried to pass it back, but just watched it on EFL highlights, and I think he tried to control it, and god knows how he got it to go where he did.  Shocking play.

Still not sure how Britain let the ball go through his legs for the second either.

2 hours ago, transfer reader said:

 

There was a coaches voice or similar video where a manager (possibly Dyche, but don't hold me to that) talked about a game where they deliberately conceded possession with a ball into the channel, with the intention of then pressing high.

Idea being they'd press up high while the opposition were still regrouping from the turnover, and try to catch people out of position in the process.

 

I know that's not necessarily what we were doing last night, just a point about how a long ball into the channel and a high press aren't exclusive and can be utilised together.

In old money - knock it in behind / down the channel, and squeeze the play.  We obviously picked up a goal last night, not directly from that outcome but an acceptance that sometimes you have to play it into space.

LM mentioned pre-match that we didn’t condense space as a team on Saturday v Sunderland, and to some extent similar happened opening 20 v Plymouth, having got it so right against Leicester.  The worst example was at Wednesday, where TC ended up pressing on his own, and they played through us.

We’ve generally been very effective in triggering the press, albeit not triggering it enough to disrupt in too many games until this recent batch of games.

Spookily I clipped this during the game.

More from the point of view to see if Twine backed Conway up in the press of the keeper.  It didn’t come to that!!!  By the time TC is onto the ball, Twine has got 3-4 yards on his man, so can assume he was aware of his responsibility had the keeper got a reasonable pass.

 

[38MC]

I’ve been as critical of Manning as most, and I own that I’ve said in the past he should be sacked many times after many games, but I’m humble enough that after being stuck by and delivering this run he does now deserve the chance to take us into the next season. 

I still wouldn’t give him the kitchen sink in the transfer window, and I’m not yet eating humble pie, but just humble enough to admit by hook or crook he’s answered his critics somewhat over these recent run of results and undoubtedly improved performances (albeit from a very low bar). 

If I was to give it a real life scenario, he’s just got to his end of probation period in a new job and he’s shown enough towards the end that rather than release with a week’s notice, you’d extend probation - the jury is still out. 

Edited April 11 by 38MC

[Cowshed]

17 hours ago, Alessandro said:

I bow to your superior tactical knowledge! 

I was referring more to the tactic of running the channels and looking to capitalise from that, which worked for the first two goals at least. 
 

EDIT - given we’re discussing “how good city were” vs “how bad Blackburn were” - in terms of the 5-0 win - what’s your opinion?

Opinion, as somebody who has defended Liam Manning and wrote about development, and where obvious linear improvement can be made I wouldn't place any emphasis on this game. Blackburn were startlingly poor. The first two goals came from balls that hit the opponents not channels, and opponents who were the startlingly poor. The first was a goal from rubbish chucked up the pitch. Blackburn couldn't deal with that, that was representative of the opponents performance.

Low quality was good enough to create goals. Tactics and shapes barely came into it. Good energy, decent intensity, well done, move on. 

[Steve Watts]

On 11/04/2024 at 11:15, Steve Watts said:

We need to pretty much carry on where we left off, rather than the last false dawn after beating the southerners and then reverting back to type a few days later against QPR.

Just leaving this here...... 

[Negan]

13 minutes ago, Steve Watts said:

Just leaving this here...... 

Huddersfield are right up for the game. Not making it easy for us. Thankfully they lack that bit of quality up front. Wouldn’t say it’s reverting back to type, more the opposition has A LOT more to play for and it’s showing currently.