Fastest Builders In The West...

[Barrs Court Red]

With that now almost certainly dead in the water,

I've missed this. Please expand, I was looking forward to the Arena.

[StapleHillPhil]

I've missed this. Please expand, I was looking forward to the Arena.

Nothing concrete, just rumours I've heard and backed up by comments on the BBC Bristol message board. It sounds like a typical council run scheme where the actual costs will be far greater than originally budgeted and now the various interested parties have fallen out.

[Barrs Court Red]

Bristol City council for you.

I wonder if it would be worth putting in a bid for a new stadium.

[samo]

i would much rather have a full capacity of 22,000 in the championship than a half empty stadium in league 1!

SPOT and ON. Exactly my thoughts.

Only 10 clubs in next years Championship (including us and all clubs in the championship playoffs, but excluding the league one playoff winners) will have grounds which can hold over 28K. These include clubs long established at that level; those recently relegated from the Premiership and those with brand new grounds.

The size of our stadium means jackshite to how well we will fair in the championship; our ability to fill it does. If Forest fail to go up they will be a league below us with a 30k capacity ground, while Leeds, Huddersfield, Bradford and Darlington will all be lower down the ladder with larger stadiums. Just cause you have the seats it doesn't mean you will A) fill them or B) do any better othe pitch Just ask Leeds and Bradford, who both got relegated with 65,378 combined seats this year! That'll mean a lot of empty real estate in West Yorkshre next year!

Sustainable growth is the order of the day; lets not start getting ahead of ourselves.

[Bristol Boy]

The most important thing a new stand would give us (if they're sticking to the same plan) is excellent conferencing facilities that can make the club money from Monday to Friday.

Increasing our revenue like that is essential if we hope to compete with the better sides in the Championship, some of whom right now generate 3 times as much money as us every season without parachute payments.

I understand what you're saying, but I still can't get my head around 1,500 extra seats & conferencing funding £8m+Int (Say 8% PA) unless we're funding it over twenty five years or such like, which isn't unreasonable given that the current EE is about 80+ years old, I suppose.

[NickJ]

Basically Nick, the club are improving the falicities at AG on a gradual basis.Last summer the DEH was refurbished and the Williams was knocked about to accomodate Premier Seating (not a great success last season but worth every penny in the Championship)

Over this summer the seating in the Dolman is being upgraded and the pitch renewed with a better quality one.A new PA system will also be introduced.

At the end of next season the Wedlocks get flattened and replaced with a brand new stand with far better facilites which will improve the overall 'look' and standard of AG.

All these improvements take time and money.

Now I don't see what some people hope to achieve by complaining about what is (as I see it) a long overdue redevelopment of AG.You might call it 'opinions' but to me its about whether the glass is half empty or half full.Yours it seems is always half empty.

Who's complaining? I'm questioning the financial merits of building the stand when, in my opinion, there may be a longer term more financially viable alternative.

The club were adamant the EE would never be opened. But look what happened when their policy was questioned and campaigned against. Other than by certain nameless brain-dead fools of course.

Sometimes, just sometimes, the fans opinions are worthy of consideration. Except in your dreary smug world.

There are lots of things which I agree with, so I usually don't comment. What would be the point.

So by definition the majority of my posts - when it comes to club policy - will be an alternative view to that expressed by the club.

The interesting bit about this forum is when opinions and views are challenged.

You like that expression about glasses being half empty/full, don't you?

[NickJ]

Well, it's about size. We were told when the plans came out originally that the conferencing facilities would be the largest available in Bristol by quite a margin. Cant see that, but even if true, how much demand would there be? That could mean a lot of business that is currently going outside the city when there's a need to get that many people into one facility. The fees charged to big business for something like that can easily run into five figures a day.

I'd agree it won't be fully utilised to start with, but I would think it's something that will build up year on year and could well pay for itself over say, 5-8 years. Is that a guess?

I think that's wrong on two counts.

First, I don't think we'll be sold out for most games. As I said, if we are doing well, we will near enough sell out most games. We didn't last time we were up, and I can't see capacity issues forcing people into 3 year Prem Club tickets. What I meant was, last season people were forced into buying Prem Seats on a match basis.

Second, I think the Premier Club, badly handled as it was, was still a good move financially. Even if it takes until 08/09 to be full, I would have thought it would be well into the black by then because again it makes more money year on year.

I'm not saying that more capacity wouldn't be a good thing, just that it's not the be all and end all for redeveloping one stand. When we eventually do the Williams I would expect there to be very significant capacity increases and a multi tier stand makes much more sense along the pitch than at the end of it.

I agree with that last comment. Which begs the question, why not redevelop the Wiliams before the EE?

[bh_red]

I agree with that last comment. Which begs the question, why not redevelop the Wiliams before the EE?

I think the line of thought is that, once they East End has been finished their will be some sort of "conference/coporate facilites" available while the Williams is then being rebuilt/re-developed,

if they are to redevelop the Williams stand first, it means that there will be barely any coperate facilities at the ground for the period of about a year, which although most of us aren't fans of, actually brings alot of money into the club.

having a situation where their is no where for the prawn sandwich brigade to sit, isn't exactly ideal as they pay stupid money for those facilities.

[pdgifford64]

Who's complaining? I'm questioning the financial merits of building the stand when, in my opinion, there may be a longer term more financially viable alternative.

The club were adamant the EE would never be opened. But look what happened when their policy was questioned and campaigned against. Other than by certain nameless brain-dead fools of course.

Sometimes, just sometimes, the fans opinions are worthy of consideration. Except in your dreary smug world.

There are lots of things which I agree with, so I usually don't comment. What would be the point.

So by definition the majority of my posts - when it comes to club policy - will be an alternative view to that expressed by the club.

The interesting bit about this forum is when opinions and views are challenged.

You like that expression about glasses being half empty/full, don't you?

Not having a go, trust me. But listening to the fans as regards areas of ground where a % of fans would like to support from and fans questioning financial implications of upgrading AG are two different things entirely.

I, for one, am delighted that CS/SL have opened up 1000 seats for fans who want to use the EE, even more so for those that campaigned for it. I`m also delighted that, and i wouldn`t expect anything different, the board are taking a measured approach to upgrading AG.

SL wouldn`t expect me to take his advice on setting out footings for a building and i wouldn`t expect him to take my council on the finances involved with the club.

Also, and this is all hypothetical. Assuming the new EE is up, we`ve consolidated our position in the CCC and all of a sudden the unthinkable happens.....the Premiership. 4 or 5 yrs down the line it might be the case that we need a 40-50k capacity and with current regulations and the restrictions of the current site i don`t imagine that would be possible. It would mean a new stadium and that would be more likely if we havn`t sunk millions into AG. All hypothetical i know, but if i were the man in charge those are the lines i would be thinking along.

PS before certain members of the forum community jump down my throat regards rose tinted glasses etc i did say HYPOTHETICAL. The thing is it also works both ways. Should the unthinkable happen.....we get relegated......we`re not stuck with a 25/30k stadium that in Lge 1 we would struggle to fill to 50%.

PDG

[Reg Hill]

I'm questioning the financial merits of building the stand when, in my opinion, there may be a longer term more financially viable alternative.

In a week where there has been ample publicity about the financial acumen of our Chairman, isn't there just a teeny possibility that he's had his calculator out and done a few sums which point to the chosen option being the best one. Based on real business planning rather than speculation.

Personally I'm up for trusting Mr L on this one.

[CGS RED]

It's not just about matchday capacity, though that would go up by a reasonable enough amount.

The most important thing a new stand would give us (if they're sticking to the same plan) is excellent conferencing facilities that can make the club money from Monday to Friday.

Increasing our revenue like that is essential if we hope to compete with the better sides in the Championship, some of whom right now generate 3 times as much money as us every season without parachute payments.

Just a question on the facilities making the club money.

Will the money go to the football club company, or the company that owns the ground.

[Nibor]

Is that a guess?

Of course.

Let's put it this way. A few years back I worked for a large tech company. We were hosting a convention, we needed room for 500 so we could get customers and prospects in the same room and have us and our suppliers pitch a new idea at them. For one day, with cheap ass awful food, the quote was well over £30 a head.

Now, I'm not saying that's going to happen every day or even every week but if ColinS is right and they are the biggest facilities in Bristol there are many, many large employers within range. BAe, Rolls Royce, MoD, GHCQ, Somerfield, Orange just to name a few. Plus of course there is the standard business of providing smaller facilities.

I agree with that last comment. Which begs the question, why not redevelop the Wiliams before the EE?

I can see the logic of doing the Williams first certainly but we're told the EE is literally falling down which might well be why they're doing that first.

[Robbored]

In a week where there has been ample publicity about the financial acumen of our Chairman, isn't there just a teeny possibility that he's had his calculator out and done a few sums which point to the chosen option being the best one. Based on real business planning rather than speculation.

Personally I'm up for trusting Mr L on this one.

And so am I.

But it seems that NickJ has a difficult time accepting that maybe our self made soon to be very very very rich Chairman knows just a lttle bit about sums and just as much about long term buisness plans.

[Nibor]

Just a question on the facilities making the club money.

Will the money go to the football club company, or the company that owns the ground.

The stadium company I'd guess.

But unless the ownership of the stadium company changes I don't think that makes any difference.

[Redminster]

You do realise that Old Trafford's West and East stand (the ones at the end) are 11,500 & 12,000 and they are double and triple tier so 5,300 on a single tier sounds like a very big / nice stand to me. Also they have built in corner sections which add capacity but are 3 -5 time the cost per seat to that of a standard side section.

I agree and I expect the new stand to be similar to this one at Wolves, albeit with a line of Exec boxes along the back.

[Flaxbourton Red]

And so am I.

But it seems that NickJ has a difficult time accepting that maybe our self made soon to be very very very rich Chairman knows just a lttle bit about sums and just as much about long term buisness plans.

depends on who our chairman listens to, if he'd paid attention to some on here

the eastend would still be closed

[samo]

HYPOTHETICAL. The thing is it also works both ways. Should the unthinkable happen.....we get relegated......we`re not stuck with a 25/30k stadium that in Lge 1 we would struggle to fill to 50%.

Future relegations or promotions are a huge factor in any decision like this and you are correct to point this out.

Some clubs worth looking at are Leeds, Gretna, St. Mirren and actually Villarreal CF too.

Leeds United have a huge international class stadium but are now a league one team. However, the city of Leeds also has a bigger population than Bristol and only one club in the football league. If the sags get promoted then Bristol will actually have two teams of equal and higher status than that, thus splitting the smaller pool of potential support. And even then they can't afford the costs that it takes keep all of it open, for example they've not had the money to pay their window cleaners for something like three years now (it's true)! We'd be unable to sustain a stadium anywhere near as big.

Gretna presently are facing the small possibility of being unable to take their place in the top flight due to having a stadium not up to the correct standards. We wouldn't have this problem ourselves necessarily, but I'd rather we were in possession of fully modern but smaller capacity stadium (with potential to expand) if were did go up in the near future.

St. Mirren have just sold their old ground, because it was basically too big, and moved to a state of the art new ground. They've made a sensible decision to downsize not just to survive but prosper, and have realised that stadium capacity is not a barometer of either ambition or status. They'll be in a much better position to compete in the SPL next year and with healthy finances.

And Villarreal CF are the mad exception to all this. They have around 48,000 people in the city/region yet they have a 23,000 seater stadium with average gates of 17,000! That's like Ashton Gate being able to hold around 180,000 with 140,000 ciderheads turning out every week! We can but dream...

[Robbored]

depends on who our chairman listens to, if he'd paid attention to some on here

the eastend would still be closed

So whats your point?

Do you or do you not agree that when it comes to fiscal matters including long term buisness stratagies that Lansdown with his very impressive achievements with his own company is the man to be guided by?

[Nibor]

I understand what you're saying, but I still can't get my head around 1,500 extra seats & conferencing funding £8m+Int (Say 8% PA) unless we're funding it over twenty five years or such like, which isn't unreasonable given that the current EE is about 80+ years old, I suppose.

How many grounds in the entire country have stands behind a goal (not including "corners") that seat in excess of 6,000? I'm betting the answer is less than 10.

Given that we're told the EE is on it's last legs, and I can't think of a reason to disbelieve that, it makes sense to redevelop the stand.

Although £8m does seem quite high to say the least, how much extra would be the cost for another tier? I would have a guess that the cost per seat goes up massively once you start doing cute stuff like that and there's a physical limit on how many seats you can get in a single tier because there are safety regulations about the rank allowed IIRC.

If you look at the EE redevelopment as "we need to rebuild that shit old stand, and it makes sense to chuck a load of conferencing facilities in there while we do it", and consider a longer term plan including the Williams and Dolman, does it really seem that strange?

[Flaxbourton Red]

So whats your point?

Do you or do you not agree that when it comes to fiscal matters including long term buisness stratagies that Lansdown with his very impressive achievements with his own company is the man to be guided by?

Mr Lansdown may have an impressive business portfolio.

However this is a football club. If you are going to surround yourself with people who are out of touch and do not understand the needs and wants of the fans, then the ability to convert his success in his financial business into success at city is going to be impeded.

Mr Lansdown has paid close attention to the supporters trust and the east end campaign, I think he understands my above point, and to that I am glad.

[CGS RED]

The stadium company I'd guess.

But unless the ownership of the stadium company changes I don't think that makes any difference.

I was wondering if the increased revenue would go to our football club company to assist with buying players and their salaries. On the other hand the stadium company where the revenue may be directed elsewhere, for non football purposes.

[Beezey]

Lets not forget that the blue half will have a new ground and facilities in a couple of years time. We need to be able compete with them to attract business during the week so for me this is another step in the right direction.

[Nibor]

I was wondering if the increased revenue would go to our football club company to assist with buying players and their salaries. On the other hand the stadium company where the revenue may be directed elsewhere, for non football purposes.

They're both owned by the same people.

If the stadium company makes money it is every bit as easy to invest that money in the football club under the new arrangement as it was when they were all one and vice versa.

The concern I think would be if part interest in the stadium company were to be sold, then it isn't so simple.

[Bristol Boy]

2)Once the williams is redeveloped as well then we will be closing onto 30000 seats anyway

That would mean an increased Williams Capacity of almost 50%, so that needs thinking about.SL has said that a figure of 25,000 is needed and we need to fill it to make it viable.That means another 4,000 sellable seats AFTER the EE's rebuilt on the basis of todays news.

.

I, for one, am delighted that CS/SL have opened up 1000 seats for fans who want to use the EE, even more so for those that campaigned for it. I`m also delighted that, and i wouldn`t expect anything different, the board are taking a measured approach to upgrading AG.

It's good news, but even better PR.What has actually happened is that the two worst blocks of the EE have been given over to home fans, whilst the better ones, adjacent to The Williams, will be occupied by more away fans.

That may have a negative impact on our 12th Man effect, albeit not as much as previously.I would have preferred City having 2,000 Min adjacent to The Williams via the reinstaement of Black A and across-thus giving the worst accommodation to away fans-albeit that segregation would be flexible to allow for falling away and/or home attendances.

SL wouldn`t expect me to take his advice on setting out footings for a building and i wouldn`t expect him to take my council on the finances involved with the club.

I don't think SL's incapable of doing the sums which is why the EE's not been rebuilt already.Football is littered with very succesfu businessman who got carried away and made a monze of things whilst being very succesful in other areas.Ergo, whilst he is a very clever and very rich man, he's not Omnipotent & infallible.

Also, and this is all hypothetical. Assuming the new EE is up, we`ve consolidated our position in the CCC and all of a sudden the unthinkable happens.....the Premiership. 4 or 5 yrs down the line it might be the case that we need a 40-50k capacity and with current regulations and the restrictions of the current site i don`t imagine that would be possible. It would mean a new stadium and that would be more likely if we havn`t sunk millions into AG. All hypothetical i know, but if i were the man in charge those are the lines i would be thinking along.

One unsuccesful season in The Prem would pay for a new stadium.

PS before certain members of the forum community jump down my throat regards rose tinted glasses etc i did say HYPOTHETICAL. The thing is it also works both ways. Should the unthinkable happen.....we get relegated......we`re not stuck with a 25/30k stadium that in Lge 1 we would struggle to fill to 50%.

If we get relegated we'll struggle to fill the one we've got, without a new EE, which is why May 2008 is being mooted as the build start date.

PDG

How many grounds in the entire country have stands behind a goal (not including "corners") that seat in excess of 6,000? I'm betting the answer is less than 10.

It's the total capacity that matters and SL said 25,000 is needed.The original plan was for an 8/10,000 Seater with Exec Boxes & Prem Club.

Given that we're told the EE is on it's last legs, and I can't think of a reason to disbelieve that, it makes sense to redevelop the stand.

Completly agree but what with, the long term implications and at what cost are the issues.

Although £8m does seem quite high to say the least, how much extra would be the cost for another tier? I would have a guess that the cost per seat goes up massively once you start doing cute stuff like that and there's a physical limit on how many seats you can get in a single tier because there are safety regulations about the rank allowed IIRC.

From memory about another 25%.That's £10m but with another £2/2.3m Revenue over a season not allowing for Exec Boxes, Catering, Office Lets etc. etc.

If you look at the EE redevelopment as "we need to rebuild that shit old stand, and it makes sense to chuck a load of conferencing facilities in there while we do it", and consider a longer term plan including the Williams and Dolman, does it really seem that strange?

I'm not saying SL can't add up, however, as supporters who are here for the long term we have a right, nay duty, to ask questions.I'd love to be the next Boro, Wigan or Reading......Just not the next Leeds although I'm 100% confident that SL wouldn't allow that.

In terms of appearance, quality etc, I'd be delighted with the new stand-It's just that £8m+ Int might be better spent on ensuring our progress, because even a failed season in the Prem would buy a new ground, in very simple terms, I know.

[054123]

A start of another Lansdown c**k up is in the making, building a stand that small is pointless if this club is going to become a real player in the championship you need to have a ground to hold 30/35,000.

The club have only two sides to redevelop East End or Williams if you don't have a stand that can hold 10,000 forget it its pointless small minded and typical of the way the club thinks

My hat goes off to you sir, there are a few fishermen on here, indeed many years ago i used dabble in it myself. But you sir truly are king. I can't wait for the Johnson out posts to start!!!

[Flaxbourton Red]

I'm not saying SL can't add up, however, as supporters who are here for the long term we have a right, nay duty, to ask questions.I'd love to be the next Boro, Wigan or Reading......Just not the next Leeds although I'm 100% confident that SL wouldn't allow that.

agree

is the club going to consult with fans about the eastend or is it about to pull an atyeo mark II out of its hat?

[giles_23_bcfc]

agree

is the club going to consult with fans about the eastend or is it about to pull an atyeo mark II out of its hat?

would like to think that the club would sonsult with the fans. i definatly wouldnt be happy if they decided to give the away fans my seat without telling me in plenty of notice!

[Guest North Street]

[Robbored]

[Guest North Street]

Your sojourn didn't last long! Get fed up on the subbers site?

Do you know Ian Heaps oh oxygen thief of the Supporters club?