Emiliano Sala

[Mr Popodopolous]

21 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

 

How does this impact their FFP position?

As far as I can tell they provided for it in the 2018-19 I think it was accounts.

The only question is, would you add back amortisation costs for the years covering the contract or would that be double-counting? My big concern was the other way that if they won, it could give them a little war chest or extra headroom, possibly quite a lot.

I wonder if it could add some extra costs but again if over the term of a notional contract, it'd have been covered for 2018-19, 2019-20 and 2020-21 by PL and then Parachute money...longer than that and maybe as Championship cash only from 2021-22 onwards.

In theory it could add a further £15m in amortisation to the costs unless as said, double-counting. Back on Championship money though...

Edited August 26, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[bcfc01]

Seems to me (very much on the outside looking in) that the correct decisions have been made both by the court and by Cardiff.

The transfer was completed therefore Cardiff have to pay Nantes and Cardiff should go after those responsible for hiring the inadequate plane and pilot in order to recover their monies - they could have worded it a hell of a lot better though. No need for the threats, especially given the circumstances - classless.

Its a shame that Cardiff didn't do this at the correct time as its just caused a load of angst and left a bad taste in the mouth.

 

[Port Said Red]

7 minutes ago, chinapig said:

What a nauseating response. Once a Bluebird always a Bluebird eh?

Yes. If you are willing to go to a court of arbitration then you should stick by it's decision, it is by very definition an equitable way to solve disputes. Unless you are Cardiff of course in which case you throw your toys out of pram if you don't get the result you want.

[petehinton]

What a truly awful club. IMO They either pay for the player, Or they aren’t allowed to mourn him as a former Cardiff player, considering they seem so adamant he didn’t actually ever sign for them. Seems fairly simple

[Port Said Red]

1 minute ago, bcfc01 said:

Seems to me (very much on the outside looking in) that the correct decisions have been made both by the court and by Cardiff.

The transfer was completed therefore Cardiff have to pay Nantes and Cardiff should go after those responsible for hiring the inadequate plane and pilot in order to recover their monies - they could have worded it a hell of a lot better though. No need for the threats, especially given the circumstances - classless.

Its a shame that Cardiff didn't do this at the correct time as its just caused a load of angst and left a bad taste in the mouth.

OK. But what's their reasoning for not paying Nantes what they are owed? They should pay up and then go after the recovery, not withold payment until they win yet another court case.

[bcfc01]

1 minute ago, Port Said Red said:

OK. But what's their reasoning for not paying Nantes what they are owed? They should pay up and then go after the recovery, not withold payment until they win yet another court case.

I thought that is what I said..

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

OK. But what's their reasoning for not paying Nantes what they are owed? They should pay up and then go after the recovery, not withold payment until they win yet another court case.

Basically they consider themselves tp be (yeah right) the innocent party and won't pay up until they've exhausted the last avenues of appeal.

I do totally agree with you btw but verdict or not, if there is a chance to improve or even negate the verdict you don't pay up until it's done, final, nowhere to go.

'Same old Cardiff

'Always classless'

[CyderInACan]

I guess that whilst they'll always be grieving, his name being in the news again can't help the family at all - and let's not forget his father died fairly soon after him of a broken heart. 

[Hxj]

Horrible case to deal with, the fact that Sala died should always be remembered.

I see nothing wrong with what Cardiff have done here, although the messaging from the club is awful.

Firstly establish whether there is a liability to Nantes for the fee, there is, that is now final.

If Cardiff do not want to pay, Nantes can now sue them for the debt, and Cardiff will ask for those they feel are responsible for the loss suffered to be added as defendants and the matter will go through the courts again, given the sums involved that is inevitable.  Clearly if Nantes are partially responsible then that complicates matters even further.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Hxj

[phantom]

13 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

I thought that is what I said..

I read it as that is what you meant, and totally agree with what you wrote

[GrahamC]

27 minutes ago, chinapig said:

What a nauseating response. Once a Bluebird always a Bluebird eh?

They really are nauseating scum.

All that stuff when he died yet prepared to drag this out indefinitely.

Vermin.

[Port Said Red]

18 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

I thought that is what I said..

It's what you said, but not what their statement says.

[chinapig]

21 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

Seems to me (very much on the outside looking in) that the correct decisions have been made both by the court and by Cardiff.

The transfer was completed therefore Cardiff have to pay Nantes and Cardiff should go after those responsible for hiring the inadequate plane and pilot in order to recover their monies - they could have worded it a hell of a lot better though. No need for the threats, especially given the circumstances - classless.

Its a shame that Cardiff didn't do this at the correct time as its just caused a load of angst and left a bad taste in the mouth.

 

Given he was their player perhaps they might have ensured he got to Cardiff safely?

The statement could indeed have been better. It essentially reads as "it's so unfair. Oh, and by the way we're sorry he's dead."

[Mr Popodopolous]

22 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

It's what you said, but not what their statement says.

The thing is, I read their statement at least once more so they clearly they if ordered to pay up, apportion of the blame to Nantes as it referenced them as a party they'd try and claim back off if they lost.

[Sleepy1968]

I've been listening to the bbc sounds podcast  "Transfer: The Emilliano Sala Story" thanks to a poster here (sorry, I forgot who it was), and I can say unequivocally that Emilliano Sala sounds like the most unassuming and down to earth nice guy you could meet, and was treated very very poorly with regard to this transfer. The term 'duty of care' seems to have no meaning when $$$ are involved.

Please listen to the podcast if you have time.

 

[exAtyeoMax]

21 minutes ago, Sleepy1968 said:

I've been listening to the bbc sounds podcast  "Transfer: The Emilliano Sala Story" thanks to a poster here (sorry, I forgot who it was), and I can say unequivocally that Emilliano Sala sounds like the most unassuming and down to earth nice guy you could meet, and was treated very very poorly with regard to this transfer. The term 'duty of care' seems to have no meaning when $$$ are involved.

Please listen to the podcast if you have time.

 

I can’t bring myself to listen to it. Poor love was so frightened getting on that plane. 

[BTRFTG]

1 hour ago, Hxj said:

I see nothing wrong with what Cardiff have done here

I think claiming Sala wasn't yet their player when he clearly was from the outset ranks somewhere toward the ar@e end of the wrongdoing spectrum.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Had a quick read of their forum.

Wow one poster on there even talks of suing Nantes for £200m claiming it as cost of relegation etc.

As in, Nantes gain £15m from Sala fee but have to pay £200m in compensation. How you go about quantifying such a claim, not least given the fact football is unpredictable who the hell knows.

[Mr Popodopolous]

PA article also says

a) They intend to take their compensation claims to a national court, but which one.

b) They intend to appeal to the Swiss Federal Tribunal or some such.

CAS statement, brief bit for those who are interested. The 78 page verdict follows at some point.

https://t.co/ZxHp3Kmcxe

Edited August 26, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[BTRFTG]

42 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Had a quick read of their forum.

Wow one poster on there even talks of suing Nantes for £200m claiming it as cost of relegation etc.

As in, Nantes gain £15m from Sala fee but have to pay £200m in compensation. How you go about quantifying such a claim, not least given the fact football is unpredictable who the hell knows.

I saw the link you posted from their forum in which somebody with a supposed 'legal background' (sic) makes all sorts claims & conjectures, many of which are unsubstantiated or straight conjecture.

He suggested should Cardiff lose the CAS appeal then they might sue Nantes for a failure of 'duty of care' to Cardiff. He uses rank analogies, likening Sala to clothing, claiming Nantes failed to 'safely deliver the goods' Cardiff had purchased.

Strikes me there are a number of issues with his argument. Firstly, Sala was already Cardiff's asset, in Cardiff, safely delivered prior to his returning to Nantes for personal reasons. Cardiff acknowledged as much by attempting to arrange Sala's round trip to say his farewells in Nantes via commercial airlines, Heathrow to Paris. Sala (Cardiff's asset,) declined their offer. Secondly, I've seen no suggestion Nantes had any involvement in chartering either flight taken post his transfer. My understanding is it's still open to debate who actually commissioned the flight and on what basis? Its known that McKay senior requested the flights (not yet proven to be a charter) and was requested to pay a £4k deposit to the now convicted Henderson, though I don't believe any money changed hands by the time of the accident. The AAIB accident report goes into great detail as to why the US registered plane should not have flown commercially (both plane & pilot not authorized.) The plane however might have been flown and occupied should both pilot and occupant agree to share 'not for profit' costs for the sheer love of flying (much like sharing petrol costs with a mate when travelling to see City.) To note the only occupant on both journeys other than the pilot was Sala (Cardiff's employee,) so difficult to understand Nantes involvement? Thirdly, there's evidence that in the weeks preceding Sala's transfer Cardiff employees (presumably paid for by Cardiff themselves,) undertook upward of ten flights (including to Nantes,) using what are known as 'grey charters', either using planes & pilots not authorized for commercial purposes, but also using commercial air charter operators who used planes and pilots for flights between countries who were not authorised for that purpose, rather were only authorised within their country of registration.

Presumably, should Sala be considered as to personally have agreed the 'cost share', non-commercial option, Cardiff wouldn't stoop so low as to sue his estate, would they?

[Hxj]

1 hour ago, BTRFTG said:

I think claiming Sala wasn't yet their player when he clearly was from the outset ranks somewhere toward the ar@e end of the wrongdoing spectrum.

IIRC Cardiff raised the direct/indirect Nantes liability issues as a significant part of their case around not paying the fee, and the direct/indirect behaviour of Nantes in invalidating the contract.

I think that those are both valid points.

FIFA determined that the contract was completed and that the liability issues were a matter for another court.

Yes Cardiff lost the case, but the liability issues remain open.

[BTRFTG]

5 minutes ago, Hxj said:

IIRC Cardiff raised the direct/indirect Nantes liability issues as a significant part of their case around not paying the fee, and the direct/indirect behaviour of Nantes in invalidating the contract.

I think that those are both valid points.

FIFA determined that the contract was completed and that the liability issues were a matter for another court.

Yes Cardiff lost the case, but the liability issues remain open.

I get the distinction but don't follow your argument. Cardiff throughout refused to pay on the basis Sala's transfer had not fully completed, which CAS have now adjudicted as incorrect. I've seen nothing to suggest Cardiff have sought nil or reduced liability on the basis of Nantes' behaviour & action. Perfectly reasonable they might so do provided they've substantive grounds on which to evidence their claim(s). Had they suggested Nantes forced Sala's return, or it was a condition of the transfer, or Nantes was in someway responsible for the commissioning and execution of the travel arrangements I'd get where you're coming from, but to date I've seen nothing of that form. Its always been couched as the fallback, 'nuclear' option should their substantive claim, that the player wasn't theirs, fail. Perhaps that's why they're desperate to up the ante by threatening to massively increase damages sought?

[alexukhc]

May he one day rest in peace 

[Malago]

My memory of the press reports at the time, was that it was the players’ agent who organised the I’ll fated flight.  Whether he is worth suing to recover the transfer fee Cardiff now are obliged to pay Nantes, must be doubtful.

[Sheltons Army]

49 minutes ago, alexukhc said:

May he one day rest in peace 

We’ll said
 

There appears no end to this

 

[The Humble Realist]

I think it was a big mistake by all parties not to recognise shortly after the tragedy that paying 50% (by Nantes only asking for 50%) of the transfer each would be a sensible thing to do.

Appreciate we are talking millions of pounds here but the circumstances were exceptional and completely unprecedented. 

It is the family I feel for having the story continually circulate every few months. 

P.s. I think how Cardiff have behaved is disgraceful so I am in no way trying to stick up for them, just highlighting how so much pain, unrest and money spent on lawyers could have been avoided.

[Sleepy1968]

2 hours ago, Malago said:

My memory of the press reports at the time, was that it was the players’ agent who organised the I’ll fated flight.  Whether he is worth suing to recover the transfer fee Cardiff now are obliged to pay Nantes, must be doubtful.

No, I don't think so. It the McKay's. They were acting for FC Nantes owner not the player, and weren't the players agent. See here https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/feb/22/willy-mckay-agent-emiliano-sala-cardiff

[Malago]

16 minutes ago, Sleepy1968 said:

No, I don't think so. It the McKay's. They were acting for FC Nantes owner not the player, and weren't the players agent. See here https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/feb/22/willy-mckay-agent-emiliano-sala-cardiff

Thanks for the link.  My reading of the article is that whilst McKay junior was acting for Nantes, it seems it was McKay senior, who had contractual relationship with Nantes, who organised the flight.  The article is silent on whether the flight was requested by Nantes, or whether McKay senior did so off his own bat.  Either way it’s been established that the transfer was completed.

Another uncertainty is if Cardiff, who offered to pay for a BA scheduled flight,  were aware that Sala was going by private charter, and if so, did they have a duty of care?

Edited August 26, 2022 by Malago

[Sleepy1968]

37 minutes ago, Malago said:

Thanks for the link.  My reading of the article is that whilst McKay junior was acting for Nantes, it seems it was McKay senior, who had contractual relationship with Nantes, who organised the flight.  The article is silent on whether the flight was requested by Nantes, or whether McKay senior did so off his own bat.  Either way it’s been established that the transfer was completed.

Another uncertainty is if Cardiff, who offered to pay for a BA scheduled flight,  were aware that Sala was going by private charter, and if so, did they have a duty of care?

I don't think it was anything to do with Nantes. It was simply that Emiliano Sala wanted to get back to say goodbye. Cardiff's flight offer was unsuitable to him and so Willie McKay organised a private flight on behalf of ES via his gopher Dave Henderson. He in turn engaged pilot David Ibbotson to fly the plane (even though the planes owner had told DH not to use DI because of prior CAA warnings).

Re duty of care - I don't think Cardiff can be blamed for ES taking the private flight since they offered to fund a commericial flight.

The whole thing a crying shame & I think I need to stop commenting in this thread for my sanity.

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by Sleepy1968

[BTRFTG]

10 hours ago, Sleepy1968 said:

No, I don't think so. It the McKay's. They were acting for FC Nantes owner not the player, and weren't the players agent. See here https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/feb/22/willy-mckay-agent-emiliano-sala-cardiff

In the case of McKay senior and Dalman that's a bunch of 'he said, she said'. Typical Grauniad article in it leaves more questions unanswered than answered:

1. Why would McKay senior pay for at least 3 return flights out of his own pocket if he wasn't getting a cut of the action (or perhaps his generosity evidences why he's bankrupt?)

2. Possibly in answer to 1, who was the agent representing the purchaser (Cardiff have remained silent on this?)

3. Again and possibly in answer to 1, did Cardiff not have concerns as to the 'close' relationship between McKay senior and Warnock, that their manager had requested the unlicensed McKay to assist in the acquisition of a couple of other french players he fancied, that manager having only recently signed two of McKay's sons on playing contracts? Quelle surprise it later emerged neither Warnock nor Cardiff appeared to have have conducted due diligence on Sala's valuation and level of market interest in him - what was the purchaser's agent doing unless, perhaps, they thought that to be McKay? Remind, too, the number of ex-players who've subsequently explained Warnock's understanding of 'pay to play'.

4. There were at least 7 other 'grey charters' undertaken by Cardiff employees in the preceding weeks, some of which may be related to the transfer, so who arranged and sanctioned them? (NB for at least 3 of them high-quality journalism discovered that post Sala's death one of the planes involved was re-registered to Guernsey possibly in an attempt to disguise the fact it had been used contrary to its authorised registration.)

5. Dalman's suggestion Cardiff knew nothing of the flight contradicts other reports, including those in the Grauniad,  in which Calum Davies (the club's welfare representative who was looking after Sala) reported that he'd warned Sala off taking the 'charter', had offered the commercial trips via Paris, but reinforced to Sala he needed to be back in Cardiff for publicity on the Monday (Sala declined the commercial flights as they gave him only half a day in Nantes instead of the overnight stay he wanted.)

6. If Sala wasn't Cardiff's player, as they'd argued,  and his registration wasn't due until the following week, why all the pressure to have him in Cardiff on the Monday? Tuesday he'd have been able to avail himself of Cardiff's offer of flights, trains and taxis.

Edited August 27, 2022 by BTRFTG