spudski

I've just tagged Scott Davidson into the tweet, so he'll now be aware of it. ?

I haven't a clue who owns it. It was on twitter. I'll have another look though.

In 1908 the average wage in the UK was £70 a year. So in today's terms... I'd say closer to £15 K

I agree to an extent...but so many don't even have an answer. There are a huge amount of people who follow the protests, and protest for the sake of it.

Your point resonates in this thread. I got accused of ' going off on a tangent'...however the points I made are valid in the bigger picture of animal welfare. Yet are ignored because they don't fit the narrative. Approx 8500 races last year across UK and Ireland. Of which the average amount of horses in a race on flat or jumps was 8. Less than 1% of horses die in racing each year. The horses get 5 star treatment and welfare throughout their racing lives. And are found good homes afterwards to retire. People are up in arms, protesting about deaths in racing. And their belief that the horses are mistreated. Yet look at the number of deaths, injury and treatment to horses and animals away from horse racing. As I posted in a link...67000 deaths a year in UK to pet dogs. Is anyone protesting about that? Across the world animals are used in transportation and production in manufacture, food, farming, military, tourist attractions. The welfare, injury and death rate to those animals are far removed from the horse racing fraternity. It's a misguided concern in the bigger picture. Some good info on here https://petkeen.com/how-many-horses-are-there-uk-statistics/

When they are interviewed at the protest...the protesters are often clueless and have no answers or resolution when questioned why they are there.

It's a valid point. However a trainer wouldn't let his horse race if it was 100% a problem. They tried to calm the animal and took a calculated judgement. Sadly he fell. If you protest about something, at least no something about the subject you're protesting about. That's common sense. Sadly...a lot of these protestors, many are all over every protest. Regardless. For protest sake.

Thanks for the honest answer. Animal welfare charities work with the horse racing industry. It's one of the most regulated sports industries in the world. Constant dialogue goes on, adjustments made, whip use has been reduced recently and height of jumps lowered. But as Rob pointed out...they then run faster into the jumps. Whips are used to guide horses...not just to whip them. Put to the side etc...placed. I have no problem with changes being made. Dialogue and knowledge from both sides is essential. My problem is the protestors and people calling for change...who have literally no knowledge of the industry and the welfare given to the horses. Who refuse to engage, and refuse to educate themselves. They do harm than good. If those protesters knew anything about race horses, they would have known that protesting when they did, would cause harm to the horses. And as that trainer pointed out, his horse was worked up so much, that it was most likely that that caused him to fall. Hadn't fallen before, no history, nothing in its way. An error of judgement by a stressed out horse. Like I say...the protestors did more damage than good...through being uneducated. It's the same with other protests going on with other causes. Often uneducated on the subject, blinkered in wanting to be educated, heart ruling head, and offer no solutions that are practical. Not a dig at you...but it's a common theme with protestors.

When you engage with an industry, they will show you how it works, the pros and cons. By engaging the protestors can give their point of view. Offer different solutions and try to find common ground. Refusing to engage just shows ignorance. How can anyone be taken seriously, if they want to change something, but haven't a clue about the thing they want to change or even offer a solution? You say I deflect ( I see it as opening up the debate), yet all you are doing is assuming the industry won't listen. Or more likely...' You don't want to listen to them, because you won't like the answers given' . Like most protests...all done in good faith, but often ignorant to the subject, offer no solutions, and end up doing more harm than good.

Whether people agree with it or not, the words from the trainer, who's horse died, regarding the ignorance of the protestors on how their actions would cause more harm than good proves my point. If they knew anything about horse behaviour they wouldn't have protested just before the race started. Worth a read... https://news.sky.com/story/grand-national-trainer-of-horse-that-suffered-fatal-fall-blames-ignorant-animal-rising-protesters-for-death-12859159

He joined Southern League Bedminster in 1899, which a year later merged to become Bristol City, playing Southern League football for two further seasons before they joined the Second Division of the Football League in 1901. He was a regular in their teams that finished fourth three seasons in a row before winning the Second Division Championship with City in 1905-06, the season in which he also played in an England trial. Having scored 10 goals in 176 appearances for Bristol City (ex his appearances for Bedminster) he joined Southern League Swindon Town in July 1907, but by the time of their 1910-11 Southern League Championship season Chambers was a fringe player, playing only 2 games that season, and he wasn’t part of their 1911 FA Charity Shield team beaten by Manchester United at Stamford Bridge. He was however Club Captain during their 1912 FA Cup run that saw them reach the semi final only to be knocked out by eventual winners Barnsley in a replay at Meadow Lane. He retired from professional football later that year after a single goal in 96 appearances for Swindon

Mate I responded to you about people engaging with the industry in the post previous to my link about dog deaths. You chose to ignore that. It was spoken about during the commentary at the Grand National. Those against it when invited do not want to engage and educate themselves further. It seems a common theme with a lot of the protests going on around the country, on various issues, that when interviewed, many of the protestors have very little knowledge about the subject they are protesting against. When cross examined can't offer solutions or know the subject matter.

Mate you've just liked a post by someone who thinks the link is about organised dog fights ?? It's about deaths through pet ownership.

Mate I answered you properly in a previous post which you've chosen to ignore. You've also completely misread or just glanced at the link I posted. That is not organised fights...but injuries and deaths to pets. I feel you are just being flippant now.

The Grand National should be the least of people's worries when you look at these figures regarding pet dog ownership. https://www.directlinegroup.co.uk/en/news/brand-news/2017/dog-fights---64-000-canines-die-in-12-months.html

And that's the problem, people against it don't want to engage. They want to complain from afar, without knowing any facts. Protestors have been offered to engage with the industry, but decline. Perhaps if they sat down and engaged, there would be better understanding from both sides. Complaining about something without knowing anything on the subject is a bit disingenuous don't you think? Quote Running and jumping comes naturally to horses, and we see them doing both those things in the wild. It’s also interesting to note that when a horse unseats its rider during a race, it will continue to run and jump with the other horses. We understand and respect that some people have concerns over animals being used in sport. That’s why we are committed to ensuring that the highest levels of animal care and welfare exist in British racing. Roly Owers, chief executive of World Horse Welfare, states that his organisation “does not accept the claim that horses are unwilling participants in sport. The notion that sport is bad for horses needs to be challenged”. Trainers and jockeys work closely with horses every day, from providing for their basic needs to conducting their training. They develop incredibly strong bonds with the horses and a deep understanding of their traits and moods. There is anecdotal evidence from jockeys that they can recognise physical and behavioural traits that signal the needs and desires of the horse. Without horseracing there would be no thoroughbred racehorse. The care and the support structures that the 14,000 horses in training at any one time receive are superior to those available to almost all other domesticated animals. As a result, racing brings far more life to the horse population than it takes away. And the quality of those lives is astonishingly high. It’s important to note that if a horse does not want to race, it won’t, and very occasionally we see a horse plant its feet and refuse to move. No horse can be made to race against its will. In the overwhelming majority of cases, horses happily take part in a race. Follow BHAHorseracing

Have you been to a stable yard, spoken to owners, trainers, jockeys, the lads and lasses that look after the horses daily. The vets that care for them? Do you understand horses and their natural behaviour? A natural behaviour that is copied in the wild, paddocks and on the course.

I agree....I bow down to your superior knowledge on the subject.

Wild horses race one another all the time. Jump, gallop, frollic. With respect...you may be against horse racing in principle, but it's obvious from your comments you know nothing about horses or spent any time around them, or spoken to people who care for them. Because ' consent' is a misplaced concept. We consent to murder one another if a government calls it war. Consent to kill someone else or try to damage them on purpose...under a name ' war or sport'...makes it alright? But if I consent to fight with you in the street...we'd both get arrested. You see how stupid we are as humans.

We're all animals...animal cruelty includes boxing and martial arts. You say we are the more intelligent species. Horse racing is a sport where the risks in doing so may lead to injury or death. Not the aim. Boxing and martial arts is purely about inflicting as much hurt and damage to the opponent. That's the aim...not the by product.

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Utter madness. You'll look down on someone for seeing both sides of the argument, yet put yourself in an ivory tower for having anti horse racing views...yet in the same breath think it's normal for humans to choose to beat the crap out of one another...injure, kill, disable, brain damage, all in the name of sport, where people make £ millions for that pleasure...whilst a baying crowd encourage their favourite to inflict as much damage to another human...enjoying watching it, gaining pleasure from it, excited by it. Mate...that's ****** up reasoning.

I'm not going to debate anymore...it's a pointless exercise. I'm not going to convince you in seeing a balanced view. I get the opinion you've never visited a yard or have any experience with looking after horses. This is generally the case with most apposed. Maybe visit a yard, speak to the owners and get a balanced view. Re diet and sustainability. My view is very alternate compared to most. This is my hope for the future. And one I'd be happy to embrace. https://www.selfsufficienthomesteading.com/self-sufficiency/how-much-land-do-you-need-to-be-self-sufficient/

Doesn't every keeper? If you put clips together showing a keepers errors you can make them look awful.