Olé

1 hour ago, Harry said:

Todays team still contains 6 of that team. 5 of those 6 arguably being the more respected/liked by the fanbase of that previous squad. Add Semenyo, Scott, Conway, James, Naismith, Atkinson, Klose, Williams, and I genuinely wonder why this manager isn’t getting more out of them. 

I actually don't think the club themselves are pushing the "got no money" narrative unless I've missed something. Neither am I. The point is however as a result of this we do have a smaller squad with a lot fewer players who are Championship (or equivalent league) ready and even the players that we all rate who you are calling out above, are in the infancy of their careers and lacking experience. Which DOES make a difference when it comes to things like a) consistency b) flaws in concentration and mistakes, and c) not holding onto leads. Coinci-bloody-dentally, precisely the things that are literally the difference between NP being a success or not.

• Pearson doesn't go on long losing runs, but has few long unbeaten runs (August and the end to last season, August this season) as consistency is hard to come by
• We are, for two seasons running now, a team that is among the top 2-3 in the league for taking the lead (or points at half time) and the worst for throwing away points 
• The last 7 defeats (in 14) which seems to have done for most people shouting "Pearson Out", literally 6 of them were down to frankly pathetic schoolboy mistakes

And that's the difference. It's not that on paper we can't put together a really positive 11 players today that matches up to 19/20, it's that compared to LJ's a-la-carte squad selection we have absolutely no strength in depth of any experience at all positions if we need to move things around (and that's before everyone howls in derision at playing Weimann over L1/2 RWB's or King at CB) and even within that 11 the brightest assets we have are all either early in their career and still learning and making mistakes* or at the twilight of their career and visibly fading (does anyone think we're getting the best version of Matty James even vs last season)?

Also, since you're calling out the like for like players from 19/20 "Todays team still contains 6 of that team" let's just have a bit of context (again). Bentley (out of contract, trying to build MO'L as long term choice), Kalas (consistently injured), Dasilva (do you dispute he has regressed?), Massengo (out of contract and refuses to sign a new one - and I might add, a player you have never rated, or is NP wrong about that!?), plus Weimann and Wells. So actually, I think NP has had the run of only two players on a like for like basis, and SHOCK HORROR, I would politely suggest that NP has got MUCH more out of Weimann and Wells than in any LJ team.

*and on the subject of young players making mistakes, god forbid NP talks about trust and doesn't pick everyone's favourite players. Remember when LJ was called all sorts of things for hanging Lloyd Kelly out to dry for his errors, which didn't do Kelly's career any harm. Wind the clock forward and we're a team that makes an inordinate about of unforced individual errors, and I honestly think whoever NP drops the mob will say he's fallen out with them or being stubborn, god forbid he try to toughen up players and set certain standards. It was quite clearly the message with Tanner @ WBA last season and remains something NP does from time to time, but no, everyone knows best and NP is falling out with people left right and centre.

2 hours ago, italian dave said:

you could have written this post word for word a year ago. We're not progressing. Nothing's changing

Not sure I agree! Our run prior to the international break was the most convincing I've seen us play in a long time at this level and was an elevation (I thought) of what NP was trying to do.

• Last season we started okay and hit 8th place by late September (P9 W3 D4 L2 GF11 GA10).
• This season in a similar period we peaked at 3rd after Blackburn (P8 W4 D2 L2 GF16 GA11).

The latter (significantly improved) was done without Kalas, Baker and Benarous (injured), O'Dowda, Palmer, Bakinson (off wage bill) and Martin (bit part), but with Tommy Conway (20) and perceptibly unproven Championship players like Sykes and Vyner (and a rejuvenated Wells). Even after losing the next two to promotion favourites (Norwich, Burnley) we looked convincing and were still top ten.

In other words we were doing more with less this season and with a clear identity. That is progression. That is change. 

If I take the Norwich and Burnley games out (again, anyone who went to them - and I know you will have done - will have seen us give both teams a really good game), then our record SINCE the international break, is as follows: P14 W3 D4 L7 GF12 GA18. Absolutely not good enough, but let's look at the defeats:

• 1-2 (H) to QPR - two early goals conceded to a form side
• 0-3 (A) to Birmingham - absolutely calamitous from 3 set pieces
• 1-2 (H) to Millwall - mistake by O'Leary for winner
• 0-2 (A) to Reading - conceded opener from another set piece
• 0-1 (H) to Sheff Utd - mistake by Vyner/Tanner
• 1-2 (H) to Stoke - mistakes by King/O'Leary, King/James 
• 0-2 (H) to West Brom - mistakes by O'Leary/Vyner, Naismith

7 defeats and 18 conceded and only one defeat (QPR) not down to our players making simple mistakes or failing at set pieces. 10/18 goals out and out mistakes by City players. 6 out of 7 winners too. None of this excuses Pearson, but what is unreasonable about his commentary of this (selectively calling out or protecting players) and what else can he do if players keep making these simple, basic mistakes?

Take out the errors and we're closer to the team that started the season getting up to 3rd using a cheaper and younger side on paper vs last season. That is and could still be an improvement in my book.

2 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

It's a reaction to peculiar managerial decisions, that even Pearson's staunchest defenders cannot explain. Weimann as RWB; King as CB; facing a big, strong, physical side and waiting until we were 0-2 down to bring on our strongest, most robust attacker. The cutting your own nose off decisions regarding HNM. The disparaging of the loan system, used to great effect by other Championship managers. And why restart a side that had failed against a mediocre Stoke against a burgeoning WBA? They say the definition of madness is doing the same thing twice and expecting different results.

Your and my views historically have seemed to be fairly aligned so I'm going to take this one on as I'm just not seeing this as the same magnitude of compounded failure and disaster that clearly you and many others are (and some others are even going as far as to wheel out the fatal "players look clueless". "don't know what we're trying to do" which might have been a feature towards the end with LJ/DH but is nonsense to say is a feature now - we're making some shocking mistakes but it's ridiculous to say it isn't clear what our formation or style is, or that the players do not understand what their jobs are. They do.)

But in respect of your points regarding peculiar decisions - 

• Weimann at RWB. Frustrating but let's not forget he played there and scored in wins last season; this season goal scoring via Conway and Wells has NOT been a problem for us, but at RWB we've had Sykes who briefly started the season well but has deteriorated into a lower division player who is well out of his depth; Wilson is injured; and Tanner NP doesn't believe is ready yet and clearly doesn't have qualities going forward that Weimann offers. This is best player not best position. Add into this in the 3-5-2 when we need to press as well as go compact without the ball, fitness is so key and Weimann is. 
• King at CB. Like most people I am not a fan but it is indisputable we are without Kalas, we lost both Naismith and Atkinson to injury, so he had to come into the equation - it's only the persistence with him that is questionable. But the story doing the rounds on Atkinson's delayed return / trust relates to (allegedly) breaching the club's Covid policy and bringing the infection into the squad as a result. Whether true or not who knows, but shows that trust isn't just about performances. Klose I have no idea, that is a mystery, I assume he has fitness issues as I'm struggling with the idea NP is doing this deliberately.
• HNM. I'm someone who enjoyed some of his breakout performances and wanted him to be a success, but others have long since highlighted his flaws and ability to give possession away in the worst positions, I think had he signed a deal off the back of playing an important role when we were on top form through the Cardiff etc games, think he could have settled into a first team role, but not doing so, then being an absolute mess away at Birmingham when we were abysmal, probably did for him. And if you have other midfielders even from the academy, what's the point of persisting with someone who wants out.
• Loans. For me at least, NP's explanation of this has always made sense and I thought he covered it very eloquently on one of those feature length Geoff Twentyman interviews regarding squad culture.

None of these to me are clear cut or suggest NP doesn't know what he's doing. You can make a good case for why he's taken every one of the above decisions, and if baked into each of them is setting an example and trying to make other players realise what is required, then I'm all for it. He hasn't been blessed with much ready-made Championship recruitment, if he's trying to enforce standards on invariably inexperienced and new-to-the-division players then - good.  Not playing 3 "ones for the future" he signed until he can rely on them isn't that unusual and a far cry from LJ chopping and changing 20 £1m+ signings. 

It seems to me NP isn't going to win friends when things are going against him because his interviews come across as arrogant and dismissive. But then we all found a way to be triggered by each of the interviewing styles of the last several managers who got sacked, so it's all a bit self fulfilling. Personally while I respect others frustrations, I'm not engaging in yet another pile on - as we've got to trust someone to build through the transition. NP has so far avoided the death spiral of LJ losing runs and has turned around patches of bad form. I see very little in what he says that is inconsistent with what we need to do to improve.

4 hours ago, MarcusX said:

We simply don’t know what goes on behind the scenes, there has to be more to it with Atkinson

Quite... everyone keeps ridiculing the idea Pearson trusts Atkinson at centre back less than playing players out of position, but the story doing the rounds fairly consistently (as in heard it now from several people) suggests the trust issue stems from a non footballing / illness matter for which NP would be hard pressed not to single the player out. Trust isn't solely about performances in the team.

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Blimey, are we really up in arms about these kind of comments from Pearson?

Exactly Dave, Nigel Pearson shouldn't really need any defending at this point (and should start earning that support) but my god the number of people on Twitter and here who have allowed themselves to be taken in by the most shameless misquoting of Pearson by a second rate podcast that has consistently never had a good word to say about him or our club, and to a lesser extend by the Bristol Post clickbait mob. 

There is a lot wrong with the selection and organisation at the moment but leaving the words "and they did for the most part" off NP's quote in order to whip up some hysteria and outrage is beyond embarrassing. I mean the atmosphere was as flat as a pancake but there is not much that NP can do about O'Leary's early error, and in the full quote as above he is being more generous about the fans than he needs to be.

20 hours ago, italian dave said:

Yep, good point. And as for @Olé, Englands defeat hasn’t stopped the rest of us….he should just learn that stiff upper lip and get on with it

Apologies. I took notes as usual but as a match it was a bit "meh" (especially for one we were winning at half time, despite looking shapeless whenever they went at us). By the second half my hands were too cold to type so I had a 25 minute gap in my notes until our third, and as commented the game by then had become very flat apart from the odd Max O'Leary save. Then legged it to Sheffield to watch the Portugal game, which by full time had done for my enthusiasm for football as @Davefevs rightly identified (and I even had a 3 hour train journey back to follow, which is normally a vacuum of time filled by writing the report).

Stiff upper lip a lot easier for England - at least you turned up and against the favourites. 

In the absence of a report looking back at my notes the key themes are covered in this thread I think, the fact Rotherham ran at us effectively throughout the game and we seemed to stand off and stand off (and in the first half anybodies guess who was tracking who). Our best football was from the same place it came earlier in the season, Naismith going direct and picking out the run of Conway off the last man. We were much more effective in the second half at killing the game, but we weren't ever particularly quick to the 50/50s and second balls. Everything was a bit flat, even the crowd, I think everyone was distracted by other things...

56 minutes ago, Curr Avon said:

Brilliant performance by Portugal!

Love to hear your thoughts @Olé.

It was unexpected. Portugal under Fernando Santos can be like City, less than the sum of their parts and able to make heavy weather of seemingly easy games. Certainly not free scoring at the highest level since Rui Costa/Figo days.Switzerland I believe were the highest ranked runner up and we seem to play them regularly, losing 3 in 6. But I was there in 2019 when we beat them 3-1 in the Nations League semi and I was there in June when we beat them 4-0 in Lisbon in the same competition group stage. 

I've watched Ramos a fair bit (Benfica) so when people asked me pre kick off what I thought about Ronaldo I said I was happy for the change as Ramos has a brilliant poachers attitude. With that said I'm sick of the English obsession to find a narrative that makes Ronaldo a failure or spoiled.

He's lost his pace and doesn't fit in well when the other two forwards are best in free roles of their own, but he's never not going to support his country or the players around him even from the sidelines. Every  media story or comment is stirring plain and simple. Ramos credited his input. 

Writing a match report on Saturday might be tricky. Wonder if Rotherham has a Portuguese quarter

On reflection it shouldn't be a surprise that Japan go full LJ era City playing at Ashton Gate.

A team that depends on attacking transitions and in Japan's case with insanely fast dribblers who exploit the spaces from a turnover to full effect, incapable of breaking down the deepest defensive block at the World Cup and apparently with a confused Plan B. They'll have known going into this that their strengths would be nullified and they adapted badly. Sound familiar?

27 minutes ago, The Wild Bunch said:

Damn!  Train tickets already booked!  Due to arrive in Rotherham at 12:19.

To be fair as a ground it's very close to the station, nip through alongside the canal opposite the "island" and you can probably do it in 5 minutes at pace, 10 worst case.

4 hours ago, Bazooka Joe said:

Wouldn't surprise me to learn we have the highest TIB/Pen ratio in the whole of the English League, possibly Europe, or worse still, the entire world.

There aren't stats for touches in the box in League One and League Two - but on one of the prior pages I shared the stat for Championship + Europe's Big 5 Leagues (108 teams) and since the start of last season our ratio of touches in the box to penalties is the highest - that's us at the very bottom right.....

23 hours ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

It would be interesting to also see the data rather than just the rank, for example Swansea would look to be as bad or worse than us from the tables, as ranked 102 for penalties just below us but the 3rd most fouled, so above us, but if they have had 2 or 3 penalties gives a different complexion

Here you go - for Championship only.

In addition to since start of last season, I've also included the data for over the last 3 seasons where we're still worst by ratio to touches in the box, albeit at least in the same ballpark as one other club.

Swansea has had two penalties since the start of last season, but on fewer touches in the box. They are fouled a lot but it is easier to explain that as they're not a direct side and play out from the back.

This season has been beyond ridiculous for trying to follow City away (6 of 10 matches so far seriously affected), but this is a new one to me. 

Wouldn't it be easier to give supporters the choice to plan the logistics that suit them best to "enjoy" both City and England as opposed to enforcing a blanket requirement on absolutely everyone to be the other side of the country by noon? 

And what exactly does 12:30 achieve that (for example) 1:30 couldn't also achieve? 12:30 KO has become an automated knee jerk reaction to absolutely everything by clubs in the Championship who themselves pitch up from their local hotel.

I notice Millwall have got to get to Sunderland a week earlier (3rd December - not sure why they're playing then) for a 12:30 KO! Presumably their fans are being done a favour so they can also watch Netherlands-USA.

Building on my last bit of penalty geekery on OTIB: 

Of the 108 teams to have played since the start of LAST season in either the EFL Championship or one of Europe's big 5 leagues, City are the 11th most fouled, have had 30th most touches in opposition boxes, but rank dead last for penalties awarded.

On 09/11/2022 at 15:26, Harry said:

I wouldn’t bother mate

This is true but @Rob kassuming it was your St Andrews ticket I had some years back if you're stuck up here let me know what you want and I'll ask around and find out and let you know.

Being winter the large outdoor venues and Boxpark might not be as much fun. It's all overpriced and full of plastics. The main thing you should base your choice on is do you want tourists, or teenagers, or hipsters, all three or none of the above.

53 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

I also thought we were higher - this was my source:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_in_the_United_Kingdom

Yep, that's exactly what I suspected, it's one of those lists which rolls in loads of urban sprawl thus basically adding in a load of other towns.

Laughable really. Sheffield adding in Rotherham. Newcastle adding in Gateshead and Tyneside. Southampton and Portsmouth simply added together.

May as well give Bristol all of Bath and WSM. Pretty sure on a single city basis Bristol is bigger than Nottingham, Sheffield and possibly Newcastle and Liverpool too.

[EDIT - 9th on here above Newcastle and Nottingham: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_the_United_Kingdom and on this a good explanation of the different categorisations, we're 8th on Primary Urban Areas whatever that means: https://citymonitor.ai/environment/where-are-largest-cities-britain-1404] 

28 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

This despite supporting a club in the 11th biggest city in the country.

11th is a new one on me, I thought we were about 8th or 9th at worst, or I'm sure there is a version where we're sixth if certain other "cities" don't roll in their urban sprawl from other towns.

On the main point, I'm starting to feel the same way as you. If we regress yet again this season there's absolutely no basis for all the stadium, HPC soundbites around us being setup for success.

I like and have supported Pearson but I've realised recently (noting this is the third time in a month I've watched lifetime-bad performances) I'm probably more enamoured by having a manager like Pearson - as in a leader, known in football, speaks from experience, bit of charisma, grin on his face but scowl if he needs one - than actually having Pearson himself. Because there is no way in hell anyone can seriously keep on with this "what he inherited" nonsense and I'm saying that as someone who has defended him and is probably still on the fence.

What alarms me more than even results (although since the last international break those represent a huge collapse from where we started) is that the basic quality that I would expect to be coached on the training ground is not only not there, but rapidly getting worse. The standard of passing is abysmal for a team that we're led to believe trains together every day. We make more unforced errors than any side I've seen us play and I now include League One Lincoln in that (who misplaced one pass to us all night - which outclasses our standards).

How can it be "what he inherited" when it is players making an unacceptable number of basic errors game after game. We had our standard 3-4 occasions of passing the ball straight out of play (two with the chance to get a player clear to the byline), probably a similar number of being caught in possession or just giving it away at close range, and then of course the usual any number of woeful crosses and corners, most notably by Jay DaSilva who this season is like a bad caricature of himself, and specifically under the coaching of the present lot.

NONE of it is excused by prior recruitment or leadership at the club - this is a level of errors and absence of technical ability that'd be alarming several levels down the pyramid, let alone a team in the Championship. This unusual trait can only be a product of the drills and quality control of the current management and coaching staff. Probably the most accurate commentary is by Pearson himself, he's said a number of times he might just be here to point us in the right direction - I think he's done that but he is unable to elevate standards any further. 

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Andy King went over to him and had some words of encouragement.

Well that was kind. Pity he didn't help him out by actually taking some responsibility and providing support during the time Low was on the pitch. 

That performance from King was an absolute effing disgrace. He's meant to be the experienced player in midfield, he hit his first two forward passes to absolutely no one, then decided he just wasn't going to bother and so kept telegraphing it back to Low and others in defence hoping for them to bail him out without even trying to be forward minded, while relying on Kadji to show any enterprise and running in midfield. At times it looked like he was either not moving or deliberately hiding behind opponents and leaving the rest to it. Even if that's just a product of his pace and age, it was shocking, the bloke is completely finished.

It's all very nice that he's a fan and I hope he goes on to be a decent coach for the club, but I'm struggling to think of a decent performance since he's been here and that effort yesterday was embarassing.

Dumb question but I ordered with some of the away games two months ago. Where would my ticket be? No ticket sent, no e-ticket sent in the confirmation email. Is it just added to my season card?? 

18 hours ago, Davefevs said:

It is possible retrospective action could be taken…but I wouldn’t hold your breath!

They’ll study the McBurnie tackle and then give Bailey Wright a three match ban.

On a more serious note (and I deliberately left it 24 hours to come on OTIB as I was fuming - instead I put my energy into getting hold of the Sky footage as @Curr Avon highlighted) - in the run up to the game Nigel Pearson spoke at length to Sky chapter and verse about this club being too nice and about making us more streetwise. It was a great interview.

But clearly he's so far failed because the only difference in severity between the Tanner and McBurnie tackle is their team reacted with apoplexy, and we didn't. They knew what they were doing, even if it was half as bad they'd have milked it to give the ref something else to distract him. But the point is once they scored it was dark arts from then on to the end.

They were either gaming the ref or in his ear. As @1960maaan points out they even made the feeble ref jog around after them just to give them their bookings. They completely owned the ref by the end. So who from our side was getting on at the ref to jolt some sense into him? Who from our side was reacting with fury in the same way at the McBurnie tackle?

No one.

I really like Nigel Pearson and I liked that interview but I'll take what he said with a pinch of salt until I see his side actually play with that collective siege mentality and demanding, single minded attitude to all around them including the ref.

37 minutes ago, Harry said:

So basically, no stewards reacted for about 30 seconds whilst loads of fans were calling for them, but as soon as a fan hopped over the hoarding about 20 stewards reacted within a second. 

Mate agree with 90% of this but the main steward who seemed to coordinate the emergency was literally shouting at the linesman to get the game stopped and from a distance arguing with him too. I'm not sure he could do much more. Other stewards just went into routine with the pitch invasion. A lad at the Spanish today knew the one you don't know and said he was let back in when they understood the context which makes it all the more ridiculous. The entire reaction was a disgrace.

4 hours ago, Bouncearoundtheground said:

Linesman and police should be ashamed of themselves. Took far too long for the medics to arrive. Hope the bloke who got wrestled to the floor going on the pitch to stop play doesn’t get banned. 

A mate of his told me that he was allowed back in once the context was understood. Police behaviour with the handicams was utterly embarrassing and worthy of the sack. WTF is the point of taking a job to serve the public and deciding that at that point you should get some film of people trying to get help in an emergency.