Sheltons Army

On 22/01/2021 at 13:33, Lrrr said:

22,000 fans to be allowed to attend the Superbowl in a stadium that can hold 65,000

I realise your post two weeks old but Half a million deaths , or close to

Have they had the South African variant yet ?

32 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Ooooh, my Tranmere Rovers supporting mate would spit his warm pale ale out if he heard you call Adkins a scouser - he’s from Birkenhead.

As the Tranmere boys say: “Do not be mistaken, do not be misled, we ain’t scousers, we’re from Birkenhead...”

think that makes him a ‘woolly back’  then 

26 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

On the assumption that we are thinking of the same poster, you may well be right, although my limited tactical knowledge precludes me from offering any sensible comment.

From my (again limited) football experience, RG just seems to explain things as I see them.

I think he’s interesting for many Phil

I was thinking of pundits or posters !  (Hoddle my star example - Gary Neville Good too ) that see things that %99 do not )

Im sure Hoddle must seem very insightful even too many , if not most , League managers and coaches 

2 minutes ago, RedLionLad said:

He was on for 2.5 years, wasn’t he?

Yes

1 hour ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

A genuine question, but how do you rate René Gilmartin as a pundit?

For the record, I enjoy listening to him, but I am aware there are others on this forum who can't stand him.

I find him a bit irritating Phil 

Seems a nice guy but insightful (To a hot level )  ?

Not particularly IMHO

Theres a poster in here who I would say is moreso

1 minute ago, And Its Smith said:

 No way will Rovers pay two managers salaries. 

Well they are already paying 3 Who no longer work for them  !

19 minutes ago, WessexPest said:

I’m not sure why they are clamouring for that ridiculous Skellington to come back - their persevering with him for so long was. A factor in their relegation in 2001. Be a shame if that happened again!...

But would enjoy having a pantomime villain in their dugout again, since Doggy Darrell left you’ve felt more pity than hate for their string of rubbish gaffers.

I imagine they need to pay a fair whack for Tisdale’s contract?

I saw a lot of the Sags during his reign (Plotting Against them as opposed to ‘watching them’) and his sides with Hayles , Cureton , Roberts etc were some of the more potent and entertaining I’ve seen from the Sags

It eventually went wrong and hasn’t  run well for him recently but IMHO he’d be a sensible and good appointment for them in their situation

17 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Tisdale's heart never looked in it.

He's got too many interests away from football. Wouldn't surprise me if he never returned to football management. He's certainly finished at League One level for the foreseeable future. Disaster at both Rovers and MK Mongs.

His post match interviews were completely bizarre - I commented on them - sounded totally disinterested and distanced which for any manager , let alone one in a new post was massive alarm bells 

11 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Two likes if I could RR!

I get that in the immediate aftermath of a game people get angry. But to still be using words like tosser and cretin about a man who left the club a year ago seems sad bordering on pathological.

Like you I don't love one or hate another: I try to take the view that any manager probably knows more about coaching and about football management than I do. That I'm not in a position to know what goes on behind the scenes. And that ultimately most managers are doing their level best for Bristol City and usually working bloody hard to do so. (The only exceptions during my 50 plus years (maybe unfairly) have been Pulis whose principal concern seemed to be money and Osman whose principal concern seemed to be himself. )

I also share your concern about the current direction of travel: we just seem to have lost any obvious strategy and to be drifting. And despite what I said above about the managers knowledge of coaching, I see us starting with a three man midfield that includes two players who've not played all season, and I see us responding to being behind by throwing on five forwards, and I do wonder!

As in all walks of life , In football , there’s also lot of bluffers within football mind Dave

A lot who merely regurgitate phrases said to them or they’ve heard or been thrown at them in a FA Course

Its the ones who can actually analyse and find the remedies themselves, and man manage  that succeed - the rest get found out eventually 

You only have to listen to pundits and see how many have seen something you havnt and in some cases never would

Not many

Hoddle is the one for me - every time his understanding and identification of aspects of the game always has me in awe. 

On this forum , on various Club Podcasts there are some very astute football eyes -

IMHO we have a notable one here ,and many who make excellent points , suggestions 

There’s a lot of snobbery in football with an idea that (All) fans know nothing - that’s complete b*****x 

1 minute ago, Phileas Fogg said:

There’s quite a bit of negativity in Kitson’s Secret Footballer book. It’s very cheap to pick up now and quite a good read so I’d recommend giving it a look.

It discusses stories from Cotterill’s time at Portsmouth and then Forest. Clearly Kitson doesn’t like Cotterill so his view is biased, but it’s still interesting reading.

t

56 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

SC is mad as a box of frogs, and anyone that has spent even a short time in his company (as I have, and know others that have spent much more time with him) would tell you that. Did he sometimes come across as calm, polite and amiable? Yes. Did he also have a foul temper and was liable to unprovoked rants where he would come across as unhinged? Yes. 

At Pompey he was intensely disliked by players, staff and supporters. His half-time talks would frequently be heard pitchside as he screamed at players, one time memorably going around the changing room and pointing at each player and screaming "****" in their faces. He was said to be bitter about what the players earned and frequently raised their salaries in rants. When he came back managing Forest he allegedly threatened to stab Dave Kitson outside the players entrance. 

He was frequently rude and aggressive to members of staff, a trait followed through at Ashton Gate, screaming at groundstaff among others. 

The latter just does not fit into modern football management and with SC it is always a matter of time before he blows up, as he did at City. Did he have legitimate grievances? Yes. Were the Lansdown family partly responsible for screwing up summer 2015? Yes. But he could have played the hand he was given much better than he did, and no offence to the revisionists but within just a couple of months LJ had turned the team around from getting pumped 3-0 at the likes of Rotherham to beating Sheff Weds 4-1 at home, guiding us to safety comfortably. 

People are mocking opposition fans' opinions of LJ. Go on some football forums - other than this one - and find me anything other than mocking and ridicule of SC. Not saying it's justified, but the reality is he has a poor reputation and that is part of the reason he has been out of work for so long.

Shrewsbury is a perfect job for him and he will do well, but let's not pretend that makes him suitable for this job right now, or that it was anything other than the right decision to sack him back in 2016.

An interesting post and perspective Kid and one, not that it matters ,  that probably should be in the ‘What Would Cotterrill do with this squad’ thread

(Can only ever be theoretical as SL certainly won’t) Would I have him back ?

No , certainly not whilst we are in Championship

On the positive side what SC did was something I’ve hardly witnessed in my decades of City (GJ being another who could claim )

He turned us around, from a mess , and built a side , (With some SOD foundations ,  recruiting to a plan , and simply delivered 

Back to your post -

Did I respect what SC did here - Absolutely 

Did I ‘like him’ - I’ve said previously, personality wise  No , Not really (There has to be some like for the respect and appreciation for what he achieved )

i have neither the evidence or knowledge to dispute your post , and if I’m honest my gut feeling of my watching , listening to him is that it’s probably pretty accurate 

However that doesn’t allow for the nonsense claims that he bought League One and the unappreciation he gets from some still, for what he did here.

Moving on , Johnson was the equivalent of winning the Willy Wonka Chocolate Factory Golden Ticket and wasted a significant opportunity as SLs personal pet project to build on what SC left him.

Personally as an owner, or as a work colleague  , I’d rather have a SC type who I know it may be bumpy with , and that I’d have an occasional nose to nose with , than somebody who talks a good game but is full of hot air , a view that was paramount in my career I guess

(Accepting that SL is running a large business where he can’t have significant numbers of staff unhappy)

14 minutes ago, Rob k said:

For what it’s worth i thought we had a brilliant couple of seasons under Cotts, i really enjoyed the games in L1 and we were great to watch. Do i think it was right to let him go.....yes.

Agree with this though

1 minute ago, Rob k said:

Come on Shelts - your usually quite fair, ‘some credit with Reid’? Think he deserves a bit more than that! 
kelly? Joe Bryan? Pack? Flint, not signed by him but all certainly improved under him and they are hard players to replace 

Reid - despite some pointing out it was analysts suggestion he definitely deserves credit , though as (I think it was @Davefevshas previously suggested Reid learn a massive amount from Tammy Abraham’s season here - Remember his move upfront also coincided with him spending the whole summer.privately training to improve his physicality / conditioning so credit to the player himself as well

Kelly - Im not sure anyone wouldn’t have been stupid enough to not bring him through - developed him ? bit of a bold claim , undoubtedly helped but natural ability and potential etc was still Kelly’s value when we sold

Joe Bryan - Id say more natural progression of a very decent focused player personally 

Pack - Possibly the best argument from that group , probably got the best from him tbf , but he was also fixated about Packs role

Flint - disagree - he didn’t fancy Flint and was pretty open about that - Cotts was the one who jumped forward with Flint , together with a personal desire within Flint

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Seeing that SOD got rid of so many high earners in the summer of 13/14....why was his wage bill so large then?  Your statement doesn’t hold any water.

I’m grateful for the ball SOD started rolling, just that he didn’t do it on a shoestring.

What about the loans of:

McLaughlin, Shorey, Richards (nominal wages), Gillett, O’Connor?

Where does Baldock’s £2m fit in?  Does that not count?

 

As for Johnson (btw I include Ashton heavily in this debate), please name this swathe of younger terms developed and sold for massive profits?  Then list all of the young ones that didn’t either develop or get sold for massive sums.  I’ve got a list of all 68 transfers since summer of 2016 if you like.

 

Your statement about biggest budget is just factually incorrect.  Your arguments are weak, inconsistent.  It’s laughable really.

Luke Ayling  we stole £200k off Leeds for him 

On a serious note........ (lets for arguments sake ignore their any inherit abilities and natural development )

Webster........

and Brownhill .....

some credit with Reid ....

and.....

uhm....

and....

uhm....

68 you say ?

Oh

22 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

Did Cotts have a similar budget to SOD? SOD had to sell and release a lot of big earners in order to get money in to build the club. He wasn’t provided the finances Cotts had in league one to build a side that would go on to win the title. Cotts was able to make a £2 million record signing (at the time), a luxury that no other manager had had in our history. That’s what I would describe as unparalleled spending power.

When SOD left, Cotts was able to bring in 4 loanees who helped the club to survival. I’ve seen a few posters point out the exact same thing happening with LJ, so surely we can use the same line of argument for Cotts when compared to SOD?

The stats are interesting, and the wage budget does say a lot. But that all came from a shift in direction under Johnson. We started to bring in younger players, develop them and sell them off for massive profits. This in turn allows for a larger wage budget as the transfer profits grew massively. Additionally, I’m sure if you compared the wage bill of the majority of clubs from 2015-19 you’d see a big increase in wages. That’s not something that is solely to do with Johnson, it’s something that happened in the world of football.

Cotts recruited very efficiently, I agree, but he was provided with the means to do so. No manager in our history had the sort of money he had to spend, especially at league one level. 
 

My point really is that if we’re going to use the ‘no manager in the history of the club had the money to spend that he had’ stick to beat LJ with. Why is Cotts exempt from that? Considering he also had more money to spend than any manager in our history, whilst breaking our transfer record and coming close to smashing even our present one in the summer of 2015. Yes he was treated unfairly in some ways, but he certainly had the biggest budget of any manager in our history

You’re still trying then 

Considering he also had more money to spend than any manager in our history

No manager in our history had the sort of money he had to spend, especially at league one level. 
 

it’s complete nonsense and fabrication

Just , merely , as an example You missed us buying Akinbiyi (£1.2m , Thorpe £1.35m and Soren Anderson £800k within 12 months in late 90s , then  

****

 My personal tip , and spoken as someone who wasn’t Cotts biggest fan some personality aspects , is to be extremely grateful for the fun and enjoyment he provided , rather rare & unique in all my years ,

rather than try to undermine what he achieved, with false claims

It may be a long wait for anything similar for you and many younger fans 

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Exactly.  @JBFC II - worth going back over the accounts, and look what Cotts achieved through “quality, not quantity” strategy.  He had a very similar budget to SOD.  He also signed players with longevity / improvement, that his successor benefitted from.  In fairness Cotts benefitted from SOD (Fielding, Pack, Flint, Williams) too.

Cotts spending power was peanuts compared to Johnson.

I don’t include the 14/15 season in my xls, but for info.

• Wages (inc NI, Pensions) £9.7m (SOD £9.6m)
• Amortisation £1.5m (SOD £1.1m)
• Other £5.5m (SOD £2.9m)
• Transfer Profit £1.4m (SOD £1.1m)

So, “To be fair, nobody in our history had had the spending power Cotts had with us” is factually incorrect.

Basically Cotts recruited efficiently.

Free transfers:

Little, Elliott, Ayling (£200k compo), Wilbraham

Swaps:

Smith for L.Kelly (plus £500k to Oldham)

Bought:

Agard (£800k), Freeman (£250k)

Sold: 

Baldock (£2m)

Look at the numbers I’ve posted above!  As for Agard v Baldock.  Don’t you think that was canny, to get your target in ahead of selling the player going out.  Baldock was rumoured to be leaving most of the summer.

Nor do you buy the League One title.

Sheffield Utd on a bigger budget than us didn’t romp the league.

Swindon Town didn’t publish detailed accounts

Preston / MKD had about 80% of Cotts budget

Yeah, we were a big fish....but we executed perfectly.  Plus JPT revenues, FA Cup 4th round, revenues, whilst on reduced capacity, impacting revenues.  Cotts actually increased revenues by 55% over previous season, because he filled the ground every week.

I think it would almost be applicable to end this with “FACT”, but I won’t.

 

I Should have asked you in the first place Dave ! 

Knew you’d have a good records, and decent analysis of the picture

Nice one 

And a great post

2 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

You don’t need to look at the figures. Cotterill brought in Wilbraham, Agard, Moore, Martin Paterson, Wade Elliott, Little, Freeman, Smith, Tavernier, Matt Smith, Saville and Todd Kane. They’re all very good players at league one level. It’s hardly as tho Cotts was given no budget then was it?

Johnson built a team in 2017, but they were torn apart because we had to sell to make ends meet. Johnson also built a squad with depth, something we didn’t have in the first half of that 15/16 season

I had a look myself - Gives a list of incomings and outgoings at least

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/bristol-city/transfers/verein/698/plus/1?saison_id=2014&pos=&detailpos=&w_s=

It also includes the departures of players and loanees summer 14releasing funds

Baldock £2.25m

Little was a free transfer

Wilbraham a free transfer

Agard to replace Baldock £800k ish

and most of the rest you’ve highlighted Loans

Ayling , Smith Freeman & Co - Signed from L1 - Do you think they were on blockbusting wages do you ?

(Johnson trebled our wage bill btw) 
 

You said he benefited from unparalleled spending power - again I ask where is there the slightest evidence of this 

4 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

He had the finances to make a star studded league one side. 
 

Baldock was sold very close to deadline day iirc, we’d already spent a fair whack on some very good players before he left, so you can’t really use that as an excuse. If you were, you should then use that as the excuse for Johnson’s spending as well surely?

Look at what O’Driscoll had to work with, and then what Cotts had to work with. Was that fair?

You obviously have looked at all the figures ??

If so - Id be interested in a bit more expansion & evidence Of his luxury spending 

 Baldock ...an ‘excuse’ ....... 

An ‘excuse’ for what ?

And - Do you not think they knew Baldock would move in that window ?

He built a team - Johnson collected the toy collection from Hamleys and Couldnt form a side in 4 1/2 years , save for 3 months when the side picked itself (And remarkably none pulled a hamstring)

4 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

Yes, potentially he was. Same as Lee was 12 months on in Jan 2017.

Yes, and it was the same the following season, 2016/17, when we set a club record for consecutive league defeats (during which, Steve extended Lee's contract). 

Only we got to see how things go in 2016/17 when an owner stands shoulder to shoulder with his man and we didn't the season before (not that I am saying Cotts didn't deserve the sack for things we are not privy to. But I think he'd have kept us up with Lee Tomlin and the much improved squad in the second half of that season).

A lot of sense and good points in three paragraphs

Boooooooooooooom

1 hour ago, JBFC II said:

To be fair, nobody in our history had had the spending power Cotts had with us. 
 

We could use the spending argument with Cotts and O’Driscoll as well. Footballs changed massively over the last 5 years, with transfer fees rising massively. That increase coincided with LJs reign, it’s not really a stick to beat him with

Really ?

Please tell all....

I thought it was a team put together with what he had , and some very astute signings that he  brought in by selling Baldock.....

Where was this unrivalled spending power ??

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That was as I understood it too.  Think some fans were telling the fan to not be a knob.

That was merely a convenient point to pull the trigger Dave

Cotts was already marked for the firing squad by then, and 

He hadn’t done himself any favours in the preceding weeks and the outcome was inevitable , Like you (And probably as a similar personality ) I can’t blame him for feeling let down after what he’d done, but it was only going to rapidly end one way.

Its what we did next that really irks me

11 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

It's sad how people talk about him

He didn't do much wrong here except talk a bit of nonsense and ultimately the football went a bit stale, as it does with every manager at every club in the world at some point.

As a person, he's not done anything to make him a "cretin". He's a decent bloke who worked bloody hard to at least TRY and get success for this club. If he outstayed his welcome that's not his fault, it's the people above him

A bit of nonsense ?

Buckets of Bluff I’d suggest

Might have helped if he had stuck to basics, not constantly promoted himself , not talked to fans like they couldn’t ever hope to understand the game, yet he was the font of all knowledge and thinking  , not thrown players under the bus on tv or radio....

And not sneered at other managers who achieved more at a level than he could ever dream of ....

Might have made him a bit more palatable

Sags not impressed

https://gaschat.co.uk/thread/17475/magician

Tisdale Thought they were ‘fabulous’

Radio Bristol now

A truly cracking deluded belter

We don’t turn on our players

We take massive numbers away, we fill town centres

Other Clubs fans love us ....

Seriously - pure comedy - worth a listen on catch up