East End Racist Chants - Wtf?

[MurrayLives]

Mate this is exactley my point too.

There are no guidlines, nothing written in law, where do you stop? where do you begin?

Someone may say a certain act or saying was racist (only their view) Someone my find nothing racist about same act or saying (only their view)

So David L cant say anything( WAS RACIST). What is proper is to say,( IN MY OPINION X Y Z WAS RACIST

I feel it becomes unacceptably racist when it becomes evidently offensive, hurtful or excluding.

[Tales From The Front]

This is where things get muddy for me.

Does this mean we can sing

"we hate cardiff and we hate cardiff"

BUT NOT

"Small town in Wales"

??

Do the people of Cardiff or Sheffield ... etc, form groups that fits into a category listed above.

Also, are Asians an ethnic group? Are Europeans?

I genuinely don't want an argument here, just clarification.

You make some very good points...does the Football League and Bristol City's Kick It Out policy cover all ethic groups within our society or just non-white. I'm convinced the Welsh are a race and an ethic group - certianly the census form considers this to be the case.. If it doesn't then by definition that is dicrimination as one ethinc groups needs is seen to be more important than another.

[dafarms]

So do you mean you don't mind what colour / race / religion somebody is... your just as happy to thump 7 bells out of any poor fu**er who happens to turn up???

What is the world coming to??

And WTF are you harping on about, who has mentioned thumping anyone, and get an oringinal name you jumped up muppett. DAFARMS

[Frome Valley]

[cider head]

"going to the paki shop" used to be acceptable years ago - nowadays I dont hear it so much. But I used to call it that too.

Good point.

But however we can say i'm off for a chinese, mexican or indian tonight and no one would care??? but saying i'm going down the paki shop is wrong?? as paki short for pakistan and most times these shops were/are run by a pakistani, however why people get offended is when an indian gets called a pakistani as pakistan and india do not like each other and there really does lie racism, so is it the misconception people are offended by rather than the race itself???

And trust me in the area of st.pauls / easton ok black people but of different cultre, now a large amount of afro caribbeans absolutely detest somalians (both black) but afro caribbeans do not like it as they have moved in to their area and their country as they see it!! racism is not always at the feet of the white man i'm affraid to say.

Again i ask people to research hip/hop rap - r&b music for lyrical content to which is sold legally and it has much more offence than anything i hear at any football ground..

On a last note Asia!! not all about pakistan or india!! so which small town we looking for??? and would all these countries be offended???

Abu Dhabi Afghanistan Armenia Azerbaijan

Bahrain Bali Bangladesh Bhutan Borneo

Brunei Burma Cambodia Ceylon China

Christmas Island Dubai Georgia Hong Kong

India Indonesia Iran Iraq Israel Japan

Java Jordan Kazakhstan Korea, North

Korea, South Kuwait Kyrgyzstan Laos

Lebanon Lombok Malaysia Macau

Maldives Marquesas Islands Micronesia

Mongolia Myanmar Nepal Oman

Pakistan Philippines Qatar Russian Federation

Saudi Arabia Singapore Sri Lanka Sumatra

Syria Taiwan Tajikistan Thailand Timor

Turkey Turkmenistan United Arab Emirates

Uzbekistan Viet Nam Yemen

:no: :no: :no: :no:

[InCider]

[dezgimed]

Sorry Dave your post is total waffle. There are and have always been songs that are prohibited by the precious charter. You can't suddenly swear by it now just because you personally didn't like one particular song.

[NickJ]

Phew. That's some read. I don't propose to get drawn into this debate as this is an emotive subject which is already going round in circles, so this will be my only contribution to this thread though as ever I can be contacted by email, or talk to me when you see me. But for the purposes of clarification:

• The chants were racist, however much some people seek to deny it. A J Sylvester has given an eloquent explanation as to why, and there's nothing I can add to that.
• There is no such thing as an acceptable level of racism. Clearly some forms of racism are worse than others but racism is racism, full stop.
• The club charter states: 'Bristol City Football Club is committed to confront and eliminate discrimination whether by reason of sex, sexual orientation, race, nationality, ethnic origin, colour, religion or disability'.
• The club, like all other 91 professional clubs in the country, will not condone or support racist behaviour by any ethnic group, and the vast majority of our supporters are behind us on this issue.

Ok Dave, I have emailed as follows:

Dave,

I think some clarification is needed, but first can I say that your comment, stated as though fact, that the chanting was racist, is actually your opinion, subject to the below.

Furthermore the argument so eloquently put forward by AJ Sylvester, who spent most of yesterday on the subject (35 posts) but has mysteriously disappeared today, is countered many times over by several times the number of posters, in many cases equally as eloquently.

In my opinion your comments, and those of AJ Sylvester, have enraged the majority of City fans, who do not see themselves or the singing as racist. If they were racist, they would not spend so much time and effort refuting your comments.

My question is this. What is racism? Where is it defined?

I have looked on the Equality and Human Rights Commission website (formerly I believe Commission for Racial Equality), but so far as I can see, racism (as opposed to racial discrimination) is not defined there.

I can find no legal definition either. But I presume there must be one.

I think it would help everyone if you could point us in the right direction as to what is legally defined as racism, and how the chanting falls within that definition. Without these parameters, this debate will continue ad infinitum, because the majority of City fans, as you can clearly see, do not consider themselves or the singing to be racist.

Thanks

Nick James

[MurrayLives]

Good point.

But however we can say i'm off for a chinese, mexican or indian tonight and no one would care??? but saying i'm going down the paki shop is wrong?? as paki short for pakistan and most times these shops were/are run by a pakistani, however why people get offended is when an indian gets called a pakistani as pakistan and india do not like each other and there really does lie racism, so is it the misconception people are offended by rather than the race itself???

And trust me in the area of st.pauls / easton ok black people but of different cultre, now a large amount of afro caribbeans absolutely detest somalians (both black) but afro caribbeans do not like it as they have moved in to their area and their country as they see it!! racism is not always at the feet of the white man i'm affraid to say.

Again i ask people to research hip/hop rap - r&b music for lyrical content to which is sold legally and it has much more offence than anything i hear at any football ground..

On a last note Asia!! not all about pakistan or india!! so which small town we looking for??? and would all these countries be offended???

Abu Dhabi Afghanistan Armenia Azerbaijan

Bahrain Bali Bangladesh Bhutan Borneo

Brunei Burma Cambodia Ceylon China

Christmas Island Dubai Georgia Hong Kong

India Indonesia Iran Iraq Israel Japan

Java Jordan Kazakhstan Korea, North

Korea, South Kuwait Kyrgyzstan Laos

Lebanon Lombok Malaysia Macau

Maldives Marquesas Islands Micronesia

Mongolia Myanmar Nepal Oman

Pakistan Philippines Qatar Russian Federation

Saudi Arabia Singapore Sri Lanka Sumatra

Syria Taiwan Tajikistan Thailand Timor

Turkey Turkmenistan United Arab Emirates

Uzbekistan Viet Nam Yemen

:no: :no: :no: :no:

When you refer to having an Indian, Chinese, mexican etc. you're just describing the cuisine on offer (most mexican restaurants in this country aren't run by mexican people), when you refer to the newsagents or takeaway as 'the paki shop' you're singling out the person or people that own/work at the establishment on grounds of race.

[havanatopia]

usually opt for the long walk me self. Think parking at the ground is for the special people!

Perhaps, if you say so.

Also, i would suggest, for the elderly who cannot walk such a huge distance now that cumberland basin parking is not allowed.

Is that a little more clear?

Anybody have a sensible answer on the parking situation inside the Gate.. i.e. the big CP at the side then it would be much appreciated.

[LSR]

if you had bothered to read the thread in it's entirety you'd see he has already explained that particular veiwpoint.

No its just I lost interest in it, because what he said was bollox. Id wve that flag even if hitler him self claimed it was his why? because it is the flag of my country, not the symbol of hate or a icon of racism, if people find it hard to wave teh flag of thier country then they have no back bone to stand up and yes "NO this is our flag not a symbol of hate".

[NickJ]

Hmmm

Just found this little gem on another site:

"Google AJ Sylvester and see which former Prime Minister he was PPS for.

Now call me an old cynic........"

[Bris Red]

I'm surprised no one has flagged this up. I assume the mods are responsible for this but why the hell is the 'P' word allowed to be typed yet the 'N' word is removed? Surely either both should be allowed to stay in this case for the purpose of clarity or both should be removed?! Allowing 'Paki' to remain yet removing the equally racist black slur is surely an indication that the word 'Paki' is fine and should be allowed to stay? Either remove them all or leave them all!

This doesn't sit very well with me at all.

Totally disagree. If you want to remove the word Paki then lets remove the words Brit, Aussie, yank, Turk etc etc whilst we are at it.

The word Paki isnt racist when referring to a Pakistani, how can it be when you are simply just shortening the orginal perfectly un racist word. If somebody of a different race or nationality called you a Brit would you care? of course not. We have been brainwashed in this country to think words are racist this is the problem.

Its laughauble that you think the N word is ''equally'' as racist as saying Paki. Do some research into the N word and you will see it has a long long history (slavery days etc) and i can fully see why Black people wouldnt want to be called it.

[TobysDad]

Here's another *Racist Term Removed/paki point that still to my mind hasn't been answered. Apart of course that the word *Racist Term Removed will be removed and replaced by someone with something deemed to be PC.

If gangster rap - "sung" presumably by black people - includes the word *Racist Term Removed isn't the argument valid that some black people see the use of that word as being acceptable?

That seems to be an argument that some on here try to use to justify the use of the word paki. And by allowing that word to be used in a thread then whoever it is that either polices the forum or who set controls at the outset seems to accept.

If Asians are ok with the word paki, and if black rappers sing about niggers then it must be ok. Right?

Oh hang on. Perhaps that simplistic view is too black and white.

Or perhaps it just goes to show what a bloody minefield the whole aspect of race, culture and racism has become.

Now I don't know Dave L but observing and hearing what he saw and heard on Saturday and then raising the issue in a blog doesn't strike me as being anything other than inflammatory - ok perhaps a bit strong, but what good has really come out of all of this? Have views been changed or have the "guilty" been reprimanded?

Nope.

[the frampton balti]

No its just I lost interest in it, because what he said was bollox. Id wve that flag even if hitler him self claimed it was his why? because it is the flag of my country, not the symbol of hate or a icon of racism, if people find it hard to wave teh flag of thier country then they have no back bone to stand up and yes "NO this is our flag not a symbol of hate".

hold on just one moment, if i'm at a bar in spain with a bunch of racist thugs in england shirts with england flags ,id rather i wasnt wearing the same. My spanish isnt very good and i wouldnt want to be tarred with the same brush.

just out of interest what is the purpose of all this flag waving jingoistic blind patriotism if it doesnt represent something to be proud of?

the reason for many peoples reservations about this are all to obvious in our imperial past.

[InCider]

Ok Dave, I have emailed as follows:

Dave,

I think some clarification is needed, but first can I say that your comment, stated as though fact, that the chanting was racist, is actually your opinion, subject to the below.

Furthermore the argument so eloquently put forward by AJ Sylvester, who spent most of yesterday on the subject (35 posts) but has mysteriously disappeared today, is countered many times over by several times the number of posters, in many cases equally as eloquently.

In my opinion your comments, and those of AJ Sylvester, have enraged the majority of City fans, who do not see themselves or the singing as racist. If they were racist, they would not spend so much time and effort refuting your comments.

My question is this. What is racism? Where is it defined?

I have looked on the Equality and Human Rights Commission website (formerly I believe Commission for Racial Equality), but so far as I can see, racism (as opposed to racial discrimination) is not defined there.

I can find no legal definition either. But I presume there must be one.

I think it would help everyone if you could point us in the right direction as to what is legally defined as racism, and how the chanting falls within that definition. Without these parameters, this debate will continue ad infinitum, because the majority of City fans, as you can clearly see, do not consider themselves or the singing to be racist.

Thanks

Nick James

Do you really expect a 10,000 word essay on the meaning of racism and how it is legally defined? It would take that sort of response to answer your questions. I'm not saying that the chants were racist (personally, I think they were borderline and would never think of singing that myself), but if you're looking to define this in legal terms, it would take a long time, even if Dave has the luxury of sociology, politics and law degrees to fall back on. Firstly, we don't have a written (or IMO actual) constitution, so we have to consider domestic, European and International laws. Even then, laws themselves are not always clearly defined as they may not be in statute. Indeed, it would probably take a 10,000 word essay to define what law is!

Please feel free to look at this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism However, this summary is just scratching the surface of the subject and as usual with Wikipedia, you can't guarantee that it is all factually correct.

Why do we need a set-in-stone definition? Isn't this what half the fuss is about? Why should we have to refer to a written version of what's acceptable to say? TBF, I know what I would and would not consider racism and that's enough for me to make a decision on what I say and who I say it to.

[WellRedPhil]

You are a total ******g P***k, it is the muppetts like you, that want the people of this country to be ashamed of our christian beliefs, and to bow down to every other ******g releigion, in their own country. You are trying to make out singing the word, England and waving a St George flag is racist, it ******g ain't, but YOU want people to think that. I have alot of friends and family from alot of different ethnic groups, and they all despise P****s like you, who want to cause arguments when there aint one.

I don't agree with most of what he's posted but that does not make him a f ** king ***** and he didn't say waving the St George flag was racist, far from it actually.

you see its idiotic things like that, can breed resentment, which could turn people to become racist

People will resent the fact that they are not allowed to put their flags up..... and rightfully so.

Exactly.

Totally disagree. If you want to remove the word Paki then lets remove the words Brit, Aussie, yank, Turk etc etc whilst we are at it.

The word Paki isnt racist when referring to a Pakistani, how can it be when you are simply just shortening the orginal perfectly un racist word. If somebody of a different race or nationality called you a Brit would you care? of course not. We have been brainwashed in this country to think words are racist this is the problem.

Its laughauble that you think the N word is ''equally'' as racist as saying Paki. Do some research into the N word and you will see it has a long long history (slavery days etc) and i can fully see why Black people wouldnt want to be called it.

I can see your point but it was clearly used in a derogatory way (in context) and therefore to leave that and filter out the 'N' word seems strange to me. Surely both should remain or both should go? Yes I know the origins of the 'N' word and it is clearly very unpleasant however the word 'Paki' when used in a derogatory way can also breed hate and has obviously been used in that way a lot, especially going back a couple of decades.

To suggest an Asian being called a 'Paki' in what is clearly a discriminatory manner is clearly completely different to being referred to as a Brit. Besides, many of the Asian origin who have recieved this abuse will be British themselves!

[bringbacktherobin]

What if your a black welshman?

is it racist then to sing we all hate wales?

[Steve Watts]

Totally disagree. If you want to remove the word Paki then lets remove the words Brit, Aussie, yank, Turk etc etc whilst we are at it.

The word Paki isnt racist when referring to a Pakistani, how can it be when you are simply just shortening the orginal perfectly un racist word. If somebody of a different race or nationality called you a Brit would you care? of course not. We have been brainwashed in this country to think words are racist this is the problem.

This is part of the issue though, isn't it? It's people making assumptions based on the appearance of people. Could you tell the difference between a person from Pakistan and a person from India? I couldn't. Physically, they have very similar appearances, and whilst they may possibly have different cultural fashion, i'm not well versed enough to know what that is. Therefore people who label others a Paki just because of their appearance, and particularly use it as a term to mock as the person using the term seems to think it's something to be made fun of, then this is surely racist. If you're not doing it to mock then it's pure ignorance and shouldn't presume to know the origin of that person...

Oh, and to all of the people comparing being called a Brit and being called a Paki..... you do get British people of Pakistani origins, you know! The two are not mutually exclusive of one another!

[dezgimed]

What about blackistani?

[the frampton balti]

What about blackistani?

Why have you ever met one?

cant help thinking your not taking this debate very seriously?

[InCider]

What if your a black welshman?

is it racist then to sing we all hate wales?

I don't see why a black welshman would sing 'we all hate Wales'!

Seriously though, if you were to sing that to a black Welshman, it isn't racist. If you were singing 'I hate black Welshmen' it might be considered so. The other is just nationalist, which surprisingly isn't allowed under official club guidelines either. That said it's less emotive, so we can probably get away with '10 sheep-sh***ers in a field'.

[BITW]

Totally disagree. If you want to remove the word Paki then lets remove the words Brit, Aussie, yank, Turk etc etc whilst we are at it.

The word Paki isnt racist when referring to a Pakistani, how can it be when you are simply just shortening the orginal perfectly un racist word. If somebody of a different race or nationality called you a Brit would you care? of course not. We have been brainwashed in this country to think words are racist this is the problem.

Its laughauble that you think the N word is ''equally'' as racist as saying Paki. Do some research into the N word and you will see it has a long long history (slavery days etc) and i can fully see why Black people wouldnt want to be called it.

I agree it is a racist term with a lot of history,yet they call each other the 'N word' in songs etc and in many real life cases, whereas if a white man says it all hell breaks loose.

(not condoning the word by the way, I would never use it.)

[NickJ]

Funny thing is, the debate has evolved into, for example, whether "paki" is racist, when it wasnt even sung on Saturday.

Question for any white people that remembers "On the Buses". That black chap in it used to refer to the bus driver as a White Honkey. Was it racist? Were you offended by it? Did any black people spring to the defence of the persecuted white man for such offensive name-calling?

What if an Asian person in a pub called you a White Honkey in a jovial sort of manner, would it be racist? Or would you just call him a Paki ****, both have a laugh, and buy each other a pint? There are some instances where both individuals would feel entirely happy about that siuation, depending on the sensitivities of each. I dont know Riaz, but I bet me and him would do it, meanwhile "AJ Sylvester", who feels a little bit better inside because he's "sticking up for Asians", would look on horrified.

[bringbacktherobin]

I don't see why a black welshman would sing 'we all hate Wales'!

Seriously though, if you were to sing that to a black Welshman, it isn't racist. If you were singing 'I hate black Welshmen' it might be considered so. The other is just nationalist, which surprisingly isn't allowed under official club guidelines either. That said it's less emotive, so we can probably get away with '10 sheep-sh***ers in a field'.

Then though, what is it if you call a white person from pakistan a paki? With yourself being white.

[iWurzel]

As much as I am AGAINST witholding on the old banter front, Saturday's chants were something different.

I was in the Atyeo and heard the following, or things like it:

- Small town in Asia

- There's only one Chicken Tikka

- Where's your poppadom?

etc etc

Banter is banter but there was definite racially motivated abuse going on on Saturday, fact. Dave rightly condemns it as it has no place at a football match.

[bringbacktherobin]

As much as I am AGAINST witholding on the old banter front, Saturday's chants were something different.

I was in the Atyeo and heard the following, or things like it:

- Small town in Asia

- There's only one Chicken Tikka

- Where's your poppadom?

etc etc

Banter is banter but there was definite racially motivated abuse going on on Saturday, fact. Dave rightly condemns it as it has no place at a football match.

Difference between that and singing a small town in wales? Places like cardiff have a very big asian and Portuguese community, dating back 100's of years.

[Mr Gow]

As much as I am AGAINST witholding on the old banter front, Saturday's chants were something different.

I was in the Atyeo and heard the following, or things like it:

- Small town in Asia

- There's only one Chicken Tikka

- Where's your poppadom?

etc etc

Banter is banter but there was definite racially motivated abuse going on on Saturday, fact. Dave rightly condemns it as it has no place at a football match.

Dont see Dave ever complaining about the sheep sh@gging song we sing to our Welsh friends

[bringbacktherobin]

Dont see Dave ever complaining about the sheep sh@gging song we sing to our Welsh friends

I think that is ok, as i guess the majority of cardiff fans are white, like most football fans in the country still. (For one reason or another)

[InCider]

Then though, what is it if you call a white person from pakistan a paki? With yourself being white.

I wouldn't call anyone from Pakistan a Paki, I'd call them Pakistani. Paki is an old school racist term from the 70's used to describe all Asians. I would never use the word. Doh, I just did.

To be fair though, I've never met a white Pakistani, so I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. You could just try calling people by their names though, if that helps. I don't refer to my mates (of which most are English) as Englanders. I would hate to be called that myself, despite being proud of my heritage.