East End Racist Chants - Wtf?

[Dan Of The Dolman]

I am at Uni in Huddersfield and for a gift I was given an inflatable sheep and told being from Bristol in Wales, I would know what to do with it. By some people's merits, this is racial abuse as I am being taunted and being made to think that being from Wales is a bad thing, when I am actually not Welsh neither live in Wales, sounds very familiar to this thread?

I just laughed it off as banter and had a laugh about it, there are more things in the world to worry about then a bit of banter, at the game on Staurday I didn't hear the p**i word used once. The songs that were sung, some may have been questionable in taste, but racist and inciting hate I am certainly sure they were not.

[Cornelius]

The only people saying its a bad thing are those claiming it to be racism.

If it's not considered to be a bad thing, why sing it as an insult?

If chants to opposition fans are supposed to be a compliment, why don't we sing chants like "you've got quite a nice shopping area and some decent restaurants" to London clubs.

We don't because we're trying to "wind them up" by slagging them off.

The choice of what to use in this slagging off, based as it is on the race of people living in their town, is racist.

[Guest AJ Sylvester]

The only people saying its a bad thing are those claiming it to be racism.

Well it's hardly praising Leicester for their multiculturalism is it?

It's often about context but when put in with the other football banter trying to get one over on the away fans it's hardly going to be used in a positive light is it?

Had it come after various chants of "my my Leicester - what a good team you are this half", "your stadium is very nice", "thank you for Gary Lineker" and "how well connected you are sat in the middle of the country" then perhaps I'll accept that it was a 'good' thing.

[ian88]

It is 100% racist. Listen to Sylvester, he is acutely aware of the problem and speaking with eloquence and intelligence on a very sensitive issue.

Those of you who believe it not to be racist just do not understand the issue, or are suppressed racists themselves. Either way, those who refuse to address this despicable behaviour and laugh it off are part of the problem and are holding back the progress of society.

[Guest AJ Sylvester]

I am at Uni in Huddersfield and for a gift I was given an inflatable sheep and told being from Bristol in Wales, I would know what to do with it. By some people's merits, this is racial abuse as I am being taunted and being made to think that being from Wales is a bad thing, when I am actually not Welsh neither live in Wales, sounds very familiar to this thread?

I just laughed it off as banter and had a laugh about it, there are more things in the world to worry about then a bit of banter, at the game on Staurday I didn't hear the p**i word used once. The songs that were sung, some may have been questionable in taste, but racist and inciting hate I am certainly sure they were not.

Dan the Welsh thing has been done to death in above threads. It's not the same thing.

Moreover it was no doubt given to you by some people you know and clearly meant as banter by people you get on with. If someone you were having a spat with at a bus stop said "ah, you're just a silly Welsh bloke" you'd probably see it in slightly different light.

[Mr Gow]

All i hear is racism racism racsim these days, but when certain people burnt poppies, shouted British soldiers go to hell, and did not respect the 2 mins silence recently on remberance day, i never heard the words racist or racism ONCE!

Remember if anyone plays the racist card, that racism cuts BOTH ways

[Guest AJ Sylvester]

So, let's get to some sort of conclusion purely from a fans perspective....what are we allowed to sing and what arn't we allowed to sing....,are we allowed to sing?

Perhaps specific examples could be used by those who respond....cause l am totally confused at what is and what is not racist?

Could the club or supporters trust issue guidelines?.....goodness knows we don't want to offend anybody at AG.....perhaps issue acceptable song sheets?

Also, is there any truth that BCFC fans are going to be asked to refrain from wearing team shirts, colours etc, to avoid upsetting any Chelsea or Man Utd fans that live in BS3?

Well here's a simple start then: leave race out of it.

It has nothing to do with football.

Simple enough? Good.

[South Bristol Red]

mountains and molehill come to mind

is it ok if we sing about the steel industry going tits up and fat ugly people doing the full monty at the next home game????

or will it offend male strippers and steel workers

[Guest AJ Sylvester]

All i hear is racism racism racsim these days, but when certain people burnt poppies, shouted British soldiers go to hell, and did not respect the 2 mins silence recently on remberance day, i never heard the words racist or racism ONCE!

Remember if anyone plays the racist card, that racism cuts BOTH ways

Agreed it was wrong - and pretty much everyone of all races, classes and areas of Britain said it was and those people were widely criticised for it. I think the tiny number of people who did this are very wrong.

But as you have used it round the other way why not suppose a fictional situation. A white British guy lives in the middle east and his kid goes to school there. That kid has on a number of occasions been taunted for being British. He gets jibes about being pale, being bad at certain sports, different to the other kids often see him as very different. Some even accuse him and his Dad of being imperialist murderers. Every so often a bunch of scary local adults turn up to his town and shout things about the invasion of the Brits, how they should go home and have little riots. There is a local political party who lobbies hard that all white people are not welcome and should go home. A few years ago there were riots in the city between the British kids and the "indigenous" local population. Very occasionally white kids get attacked simply for being white. When they try to turn a local shop into an expats centre or small Christian church they face huge objections just because of the actions of the British military.

One day that kid finally goes to a local sports game. Not many of the white kids go to watch this sport but this one gives it a go. When he gets there some locals see him or know he comes from an area with lots of white kids. They quickly begin to chant about how different that kid is. They make references AGAIN to the food he eats and how he's different. Kid thinks this ain't much fun and doesn't turn up again. No he hasn't been physically abused but it's a highly charged atmosphere and he feels uncomfortable and made to feel he shouldn't by white or live there.

Is that fair? I'd say not.

I'm not saying that all Asian people would take those chants that way. I'm not saying all those joining in are racist and intended to hurt people. But I repeat that it is NOT the place to be sensitive, delicate or careful about such matters. 6 different songs all in a row on YouTube all about the ethnicity of Leicester one of which (England, England) alludes to Asians not being English and also links Englishness to race. Not cool.

I certainly wouldn't want any Aussie fans singing "small country in Asia" at us during the Ashes just because Monty is in the squad.

[Guest AJ Sylvester]

mountains and molehill come to mind

is it ok if we sing about the steel industry going tits up and fat ugly people doing the full monty at the next home game????

or will it offend male strippers and steel workers

As I've said countless times before - differences can be subtle. Steel workers - small town in Asia - monkey chants. Fine lines.

[Milo]

I'd like to thank AJ Sylvester for taking the time to put over his viewpoint so eloquently in the face of such depressing hostility. Every now and again I read a thread on otib that really shocks and saddens me and this thread is right up there.

A lot of people who laugh at a racist joke don't consider themselves racist but understand why it's a joke. I think that's what's happened here - people understand the humour but don't consider themselves racist. Well, I'm sure the vast majority who sang these chants on Saturday are not racist but the words are.

I really hope that one or two of you will read AJ Sylvester's comments with open minds and that if you're not a racist you'll not join in with this type of chant in the future.

[Guest AJ Sylvester]

**** me someone needs to chill out this pc shit is getting stupid. They should play repeats of love thy neighbour now there's racism for you and everyone including black people (oh sorry am i aloud to write that) laughed at it. It's people like you that get nativity plays cancelled ****.

Yes you can say black.

Nativity plays is a religous matter not a race one.

And they aren't so common now because many people white, black, brown, yellow, pink and purple don't want their kids to be taught it as a factual truth.

[Mr Gow]

As one poster has said, the balance is now tiping thank God and people are getting fed up with this racist card, its good to see the bbc and some of our national newspapers are now at last wiseing up to it, ie panorama the other night.

[Guest AJ Sylvester]

It's getting late and this has gone on and begun to go round in circles. Just to clarify before I try to leave this thread:

- I don't think all fans who chanted those songs on Saturday are racist

- I accept that many people can laugh them off

- However these issues are delicate and sensitive to some people. Chanting at a football ground isn't so it's not an appropriate forum for them

- And in the 14,000 or so there some people will have been offended

- Putting them in with "Eng-er-land" chants is the cause of people being afraid to wave our flag because you link race with our nation. It's those things that make it tough to celebrate St. George's Day

- Jokes about being Welsh is slightly different

I accept you guys aren't racist but some of those chants can be seen as racist. So please don't sing them at City games: we're trying to bring people together, not drive them apart.

Build bridges, not walls.

Up the City!

[CiderPunk]

Football is supposed to be tribal, anyone getting offended by these chants ought to grow a set of balls or give up watching it.

[LSR]

Disagree completely Riaz. You may not find them offensive but plenty of people can and do.

"Small town in Asia" is clearly aimed to mock the Asian population of Leicester.

Chants of "Eng-er-land, Eng-er-land" are clearly implying that Asian people aren't English and that somehow being white makes you more English than Asian people.

According to Leicester forums there were also chants of "where's your popadom" - which goes without saying.

I know not everyone gets offended by it but plenty of people do. A lot of Asian fans of both clubs could have heard that and felt unwelcome. Those chants were aimed to mock/insult otherwise they wouldn't have been sung and I know enough people who would have been pretty upset to hear them had they been there. Are we really trying to make people feel unwelcome here!?! I hope not.

Finally, to those of us like myself who love to wave the England flag - it's THOSE chants of "Eng-er-land" that make it difficult for us to wave the flag or celebrate St George's day. Don't go blaming "the PC brigade" for it - it's precisely those people who link the flag and the word "England" to being white and exclusive of Asian (or black) who are to blame.

So if you want to chant "Eng-er-land" at Leicester fans to imply white people are English and then turn round in upset at the fact that people fear the chant or the flag then you only have yourself to blame.

Why is waving the england flag hard because of a chant, explain?

[LSR]

People who assum that certain chants offend people from ethnic back grounds need to let them stand up for them selfs, if they feel hard done by they are just as likely to speak up as me and you. The hate sometimes is created by The pc brigade when infact the ethinc minorites believe it or not know how to speak for them selfs, thier not deaf dumb and blind, Please let them speak for them selfs if they choose too.

PS they also know how to laught at them selfs and if they get offended they will let you all know. Stop speaking for them and trying to act on thier behalf because they would much rather you didnt.

[spudski]

Race, Religion, Sex and Politics...all topics that will provoke heated debate, and never full agreement.

The race issue would clear up in this Country, if people intograted more. Instead of their being Black, Asian, Muslim, Jewish communities etc, it would be better if people tried to live together, instead of creating little countries ( communities ) within this one. You can go into some areas nowadays, where English isn't spoken and the people are trying to recreate, the Country where they came from. Eating their traditional food, their music, their clothing etc. If these Communities didn't exist, there wouldn't be a problem.

In the same way, when the 'English' set up little communities abroad. You can go to some parts of Spain and it might as well be little Britain. Learn the language and intograte...it's the least you can do.

It happens in every Country throughout the World. TBH, the more you travel, you will realise, that England, is one of the least racist countries in the World. You should try watching your football in Italy, Spain or any of the Eastern Bloc countries, to see and hear what real racism is.

Regarding the Leicester chants...it wasn't racism. Fans pick on something that that town is famous for. Leicester is renowned for having a large Asian population. In the same way Brighton has a large Gay community. In the same way we pick on Cardiff and Swansea for their love of Sheep. Scousers for nicking cars, Spurs Jewish connection, etc,etc,etc. We are tarred with the Brush of being tractor driving thick Wurzels, or for the uneducated Welsh. It's all water off a ducks back. As long as it's said with humour and not meant to intimidate...then it will always go on.

People should just get on, whatever colour, race or religion. And stop looking for problems. This Country has gone to the dogs, because of people looking to complain. Get on with it. Life's a bitch. Laugh at ourselves,and we will all get on.

[Jordan Tansley]

Why is waving the england flag hard because of a chant, explain?

if you had bothered to read the thread in it's entirety you'd see he has already explained that particular veiwpoint.

[NickJ]

It's getting late and this has gone on and begun to go round in circles. Just to clarify before I try to leave this thread:

- I don't think all fans who chanted those songs on Saturday are racist

- I accept that many people can laugh them off

- However these issues are delicate and sensitive to some people. Chanting at a football ground isn't so it's not an appropriate forum for them

- And in the 14,000 or so there some people will have been offended

- Putting them in with "Eng-er-land" chants is the cause of people being afraid to wave our flag because you link race with our nation. It's those things that make it tough to celebrate St. George's Day

- Jokes about being Welsh is slightly different

I accept you guys aren't racist but some of those chants can be seen as racist. So please don't sing them at City games: we're trying to bring people together, not drive them apart.

Build bridges, not walls.

Up the City!

Respect for that post even if I dont agree with everything you have said.

The majority of people in this country aren't racist, nor are the majority of City fans. Most of us have friends and work colleagues from all ethnic groups.

Agree the debate has gone round in circles, but just to put a different perspective:

How would the law view the singing on Saturday? The case of Sol Campbell in Portsmouth v Spurs could be a reference point, though that was far more extreme.

I would suggest that any attempted prosecution would fail, in fact its difficult to see what the offence would be. As this country has been legislated to death with a law to cover every situation, that in my view would suggest that it was not racist.

Singing that Leicester is just a small town in Asia is no different to singing Bristol is just a small town in Wales.

Apart from its banality and to put it bluntly stupidity, both have connotations that England is superior to the other continent/country. I might believe that to be true (I dont necessarily) but would that make me racist or just ultra-proud of England, in a very juvenile sort of way?

[Jordan Tansley]

Race, Religion, Sex and Politics...all topics that will provoke heated debate, and never full agreement.

The race issue would clear up in this Country, if people intograted more. Instead of their being Black, Asian, Muslim, Jewish communities etc, it would be better if people tried to live together, instead of creating little countries ( communities ) within this one. You can go into some areas nowadays, where English isn't spoken and the people are trying to recreate, the Country where they came from. Eating their traditional food, their music, their clothing etc. If these Communities didn't exist, there wouldn't be a problem.

In the same way, when the 'English' set up little communities abroad. You can go to some parts of Spain and it might as well be little Britain. Learn the language and intograte...it's the least you can do.

It happens in every Country throughout the World. TBH, the more you travel, you will realise, that England, is one of the least racist countries in the World. You should try watching your football in Italy, Spain or any of the Eastern Bloc countries, to see and hear what real racism is.

Regarding the Leicester chants...it wasn't racism. Fans pick on something that that town is famous for. Leicester is renowned for having a large Asian population. In the same way Brighton has a large Gay community. In the same way we pick on Cardiff and Swansea for their love of Sheep. Scousers for nicking cars, Spurs Jewish connection, etc,etc,etc. We are tarred with the Brush of being tractor driving thick Wurzels, or for the uneducated Welsh. It's all water off a ducks back. As long as it's said with humour and not meant to intimidate...then it will always go on.

People should just get on, whatever colour, race or religion. And stop looking for problems. This Country has gone to the dogs, because of people looking to complain. Get on with it. Life's a bitch. Laugh at ourselves,and we will all get on.

does that change the fact it's wrong? because these stereotypes are insulting, small-minded and rather childish, in all honesty.

[Mr Gow]

Race, Religion, Sex and Politics...all topics that will provoke heated debate, and never full agreement.

The race issue would clear up in this Country, if people intograted more. Instead of their being Black, Asian, Muslim, Jewish communities etc, it would be better if people tried to live together, instead of creating little countries ( communities ) within this one. You can go into some areas nowadays, where English isn't spoken and the people are trying to recreate, the Country where they came from. Eating their traditional food, their music, their clothing etc. If these Communities didn't exist, there wouldn't be a problem.

In the same way, when the 'English' set up little communities abroad. You can go to some parts of Spain and it might as well be little Britain. Learn the language and intograte...it's the least you can do.

It happens in every Country throughout the World. TBH, the more you travel, you will realise, that England, is one of the least racist countries in the World. You should try watching your football in Italy, Spain or any of the Eastern Bloc countries, to see and hear what real racism is.

Regarding the Leicester chants...it wasn't racism. Fans pick on something that that town is famous for. Leicester is renowned for having a large Asian population. In the same way Brighton has a large Gay community. In the same way we pick on Cardiff and Swansea for their love of Sheep. Scousers for nicking cars, Spurs Jewish connection, etc,etc,etc. We are tarred with the Brush of being tractor driving thick Wurzels, or for the uneducated Welsh. It's all water off a ducks back. As long as it's said with humour and not meant to intimidate...then it will always go on.

People should just get on, whatever colour, race or religion. And stop looking for problems. This Country has gone to the dogs, because of people looking to complain. Get on with it. Life's a bitch. Laugh at ourselves,and we will all get on.

Great post spuds, thanks for that

[Martyn Hocking]

For God's sake, of course it's racist; let me take you through it slowly:

1. Those aiming chants at the Leicester fans were trying to wind them up by insulting them. There's nothing wrong with that, but ...

2. The way in which they chose to insult them was by making reference to the large Asian community in Leicester.

3. As it was clearly meant to be an insult (see point 1) there was an implicit message that having a large Asian community was, in itself, a bad thing.

4. Thinking that having a large Asian community is a bad thing is inevitably racist.

I really can't see how anyone who is remotely honest or thoughtful could possibly argue otherwise.

Absolutely correct Cornelius - I'm afraid an awful lot of the apologists on this thread are unwilling to admit that they are prejudiced, preferring instead to try to turn this into an example of 'PC gone mad'.

It's kind of ironic that one of the songs involved a reference to 'poppadoms'. It was the exact same 'joke' that moronic chav Jade Goody used when she racially abused Shilpa Shetty in Big Brother, calling her 'Shilpa Poppadom'. It wasn't funy then and it isn't funny now.

My view of posters on this forum has gone massively down today I have to say. When I first started using OTIB it featured well-informed posters like RedTop, who wanted to engage in intelligent debate. Now it appears to be packed with the sort of fans that give football a bad name.

[Martyn Hocking]

I'd like to thank AJ Sylvester for taking the time to put over his viewpoint so eloquently in the face of such depressing hostility. Every now and again I read a thread on otib that really shocks and saddens me and this thread is right up there.

A lot of people who laugh at a racist joke don't consider themselves racist but understand why it's a joke. I think that's what's happened here - people understand the humour but don't consider themselves racist. Well, I'm sure the vast majority who sang these chants on Saturday are not racist but the words are.

I really hope that one or two of you will read AJ Sylvester's comments with open minds and that if you're not a racist you'll not join in with this type of chant in the future.

Well said.

[CiderPunk]

Absolutely correct Cornelius - I'm afraid an awful lot of the apologists on this thread are unwilling to admit that they are prejudiced, preferring instead to try to turn this into an example of 'PC gone mad'.

It's kind of ironic that one of the songs involved a reference to 'poppadoms'. It was the exact same 'joke' that moronic chav Jade Goody used when she racially abused Shilpa Shetty in Big Brother, calling her 'Shilpa Poppadom'. It wasn't funy then and it isn't funny now.

My view of posters on this forum has gone massively down today I have to say. When I first started using OTIB it featured well-informed posters like RedTop, who wanted to engage in intelligent debate. Now it appears to be packed with the sort of fans that give football a bad name.

And who are you to judge?

[Martyn Hocking]

And who are you to judge?

The songs/chants were racist - fact. There is nothing to judge.

[CiderPunk]

The songs/chants were racist - fact. There is nothing to judge.

Thanks for not answering my question. It's a matter of opinion not fact. Gonna answer my question?

[Mr Gow]

Absolutely correct Cornelius - I'm afraid an awful lot of the apologists on this thread are unwilling to admit that they are prejudiced, preferring instead to try to turn this into an example of 'PC gone mad'.

It's kind of ironic that one of the songs involved a reference to 'poppadoms'. It was the exact same 'joke' that moronic chav Jade Goody used when she racially abused Shilpa Shetty in Big Brother, calling her 'Shilpa Poppadom'. It wasn't funy then and it isn't funny now.

My view of posters on this forum has gone massively down today I have to say. When I first started using OTIB it featured well-informed posters like RedTop, who wanted to engage in intelligent debate. Now it appears to be packed with the sort of fans that give football a bad name.

You need to go join the nimbys and the lentil eating tree hugging do gooders

Seriously though your just as entitled to your opinion as anyone on here

[spudski]

does that change the fact it's wrong? because these stereotypes are insulting, small-minded and rather childish, in all honesty.

Right or wrong...it's life. People will always pick on the stereotype of an area, and try to make fun. It's being going on for centuries. Go to Italy, and they still sing derogatory songs and chants, to one another; about what one City did to another from Medievil times.

We've all become so sensitive in this country. People are starving and dying and we're all worried about a few silly words and a few feelings. This country needs to Man the **** up, and stop being so namby pamby. He said this...she said that. It's just stupid foolish songs.

[dezgimed]

The songs/chants were racist - fact. There is nothing to judge.

Your avatar is racist. You have purposefully depicted Coppell as part black, and reference to him as a joke.

Fact.