john shaws hair Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Oh dear, as you seem you do not know the difference between Finland and Belguim you'll excuse me if I completely ignore your ramblings about Sheffield, that's in Yorkshire by the way I was working from memory and got helsinki concfused with Helysel very similar sounding names you point it out I corrected it there is no need to be a **** about it, haha so funny u two need to get a room i can see a bromance blosoming on another note trl makes the most valid point in the thread indeed anyone who watched the channel 4 documentary a few years ago would be aware of the large number of fans turning up late and charging the turnstiles, i think the fact that everyone seemed to fail massively that day contributed to the disaster we all watched unfold on tv ,rip to all those who lost there lives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 OTIB overly pedantic post of the day goes to... Back on topic, I just hope in the coming days and weeks a lot of closure can be made, and the finger pointing can stop. I severly doubt it though. thanks for that I just spat my coffee over my laptop.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 I guess some on here would see it different if they lost a child that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 I guess some on here would see it different if they lost a child that day. of course but none of us did and can only comment on what is avialable to us at this time, Three main points are the 1. Liverpool fans turning up late without tickets and has a share of the blame 2. The poiliceing and stewarding was not fit for purpuse and has a share of the blame 3. the design of the stand and tha caging at the front which caused a bottleneck and the crush to happen, Thats all we can go on and all we are saying is that but alot like myself are sick of the attention seekers and the media reporting it and the hate mail and death threats you recieve (if you are a public figure) if you dare to speak about it that doesn't take the blame completely away from liverpool fans, I really hope the papers that are released wednesday does provide closeure and we can finally put it to bed, as I said the Helysel diasister (caused by liverpool fans) and the Bradford Fire both massive tradageys and both get nowhere near the coverage the hilsborough diasister gets, Thats all I'm sick of, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRL Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 I guess some on here would see it different if they lost a child that day. With out doubt that would be the case, when anyones child dies they will look to aportion blame, it is all part of the healing process. Sometimes the full outcome isn't what they want, sometimes it is. I don't think just because someone is blamed that it really brings closure, that pain is with you forever. This chasing of a outcome by the families is what it is, it gives them something to focus on, it helps blot the pain somewhat. it is what happens when it draws to its natural conclusion that gives cause for concern for those involved. What to do with their lives then? That is when they will need real support. It is the same as people losing a loved one and going out doing charity walks marathons etc etc, its a focal point for them, be it a sligtly negative one. I can quite understand why they are doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 OTIB overly pedantic post of the day goes to... Back on topic, I just hope in the coming days and weeks a lot of closure can be made, and the finger pointing can stop. I severly doubt it though. Awwwwww, if I'd known there was a prize for pedantry I would have pointed out that kevinmabbutshair spelt 'Belgium' wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walnutroof657 Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Both Heysel and Hillsborough were a cover up to some degree, in both fans played a part but the parts played by organisers, police were covered up with the blame whether fairly or otherwise placed solely on the fans. In both the ground was unsuitable and those who chose the ground were not called to account, the police response was incompetant and apart from criticism in the taylor report nobody was called to account. The medical response was also poor hence the ruling the 96 were all dead by 1515 despite evidence to the contrary. So its understandable for the families to feel bitterness towards what went on, if the authorities the following day held their hands up and accepted their share of blame there would be none of this continued campaign now. At heysel uefa were culpable to some degree and the same applies to the fa at hilsborough but in both cases the fans made a easy scapegoat and so their role was never investigated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Both Heysel and Hillsborough were a cover up to some degree, in both fans played a part but the parts played by organisers, police were covered up with the blame whether fairly or otherwise placed solely on the fans. In both the ground was unsuitable and those who chose the ground were not called to account, the police response was incompetant and apart from criticism in the taylor report nobody was called to account. The medical response was also poor hence the ruling the 96 were all dead by 1515 despite evidence to the contrary. So its understandable for the families to feel bitterness towards what went on, if the authorities the following day held their hands up and accepted their share of blame there would be none of this continued campaign now. At heysel uefa were culpable to some degree and the same applies to the fa at hilsborough but in both cases the fans made a easy scapegoat and so their role was never investigated. agree it wasn''t some degree though they should never of awarded the game to that ground in the first place it was like having the world cup final at Stockpor, ut they can't be held responcable for the fans on the day who were looking for trouble, Its easy to look at it in hindsight now but at the time nothing like it had happed and I suspect there were many a large crowd at hilsborough before that game, The taylor report was needed and improved grounds to a massive degree the only thing wrong with that was getting rid of the terricing (i'm not to fussed I don't mind sitting and watching a game but others feel strongly about it and I support them), Hopefully wednesday will bring an end to it but I doubt it if its not the result liverpools fans want it will be like the grassy knowle with wild theorys thrown around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Hocking Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 The common denominator in two of the tragedies was the dire state/ design of the stadia in which the games were played. Bradford City fans died because they were paying to sit in a stand that hadn't been maintained properly, allowing rubbish to build up under wooden seats which then caught fire. The fences at Hillsborough, combined with the pens that stopped fans moving sideways along the terraces made it impossible for people to escape the overcrowding which caused their deaths. At Heysel, Liverpool hooligans caused the deaths of Juventus fans by charging into barriers/ fencing that subsequently collapsed. You can argue the toss about the state of the Heysel stadium, but any objective view of that tragedy would say that it was caused by a group of Liverpool fans and their desire to play the 'hard lad' in front of the TV cameras. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Ticketless fans turn up and people push and shove at all sorts of footballing and other occasions. Coping with them is what the police, stewards and stadium management get paid to do. You predict the risks and draw up plans accordingly. In the case of Hillsborough those charged with protecting the public singularly failed to do their job. I support the efforts of the families to get the fullest facts about that day. It's still in the public eye because - unlike the other stadia disasters mentioned on this thread - there is an unmistakable whiff of cover up in this case. It's hard not to look at the basic facts and conclude that various senior officers at best were so woefully incompetent they should have been sacked and at worst should have faced corporate manslaughter charges. Instead everyone was allowed to continue their careers without blemishes or 'medically retire on a full pension'. It is no wonder the families are still angry. Still it was 'only football fans' as I'm sure the government of the time thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Ticketless fans turn up and people push and shove at all sorts of footballing and other occasions. Coping with them is what the police, stewards and stadium management get paid to do. You predict the risks and draw up plans accordingly. In the case of Hillsborough those charged with protecting the public singularly failed to do their job. I support the efforts of the families to get the fullest facts about that day. It's still in the public eye because - unlike the other stadia disasters mentioned on this thread - there is an unmistakable whiff of cover up in this case. It's hard not to look at the basic facts and conclude that various senior officers at best were so woefully incompetent they should have been sacked and at worst should have faced corporate manslaughter charges. Instead everyone was allowed to continue their careers without blemishes or 'medically retire on a full pension'. It is no wonder the families are still angry. Still it was 'only football fans' as I'm sure the government of the time thought. good post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
db1291 Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Unfortunately, the lies told by the police on the day still get retold. 1. Turning up 30 minutes before kick off is not turning up late for the game. The crush outside the ground was 30 minutes before kick off caused by the fact there were only 11 open turnstiles 2. There was no evidence of ticketless fans. Its another lie. 3. There is no evidence of fans rushing. The footage shows them entering calmly but then all being funneled into a long tunnel which exited into already full pens and with no means of escape. 4. Despite the police doing toxicology on every dead and injured fan, there was no evideence of drunkedness. Another lie The reason Hillsborough will not die is because people keep telling lies about it. And I would hope that if the police stopped ambulances from treating BCFC fans and let them die on the pitch rather than spoil the grass, a few people on here might get a big angry about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Unfortunately, the lies told by the police on the day still get retold. 1. Turning up 30 minutes before kick off is not turning up late for the game. The crush outside the ground was 30 minutes before kick off caused by the fact there were only 11 open turnstiles There was road works in the M62 which caused delays hence the large build up close to kick off beyond the police control that is a fact The police opened a gate to let in more supporters as the was a build up of fans trying to get into the ground this caused fans to rush that gate which helped in causing the crush the police and stewards at the time were under pressure to get people into the ground due to the refusal of match officials to delay kick off The police are to blame for not stopping fans getting in once capacity had been reach and that has never been explained so thats the "cover up" bit you are on about 2. There was no evidence of ticketless fans. Its another lie. There is also no evidence supporting the fact that only the allocation that was alloud to liverpool fans had turned up (the crush wouldn't of happened if this was the case) but you can argue etherway on that and never get the correct facts unfortunatley 3. There is no evidence of fans rushing. The footage shows them entering calmly but then all being funneled into a long tunnel which exited into already full pens and with no means of escape. Not seeing footage from outside the ground I can't anwser that but if people were entering carmly as you say why was there a need to open additonal gates to let fans in? why was there a big build up of fans? the taylor report states that it would of taken until 15:40 to let all the fans outside in fans ejected of had no tickets couldn't get out of the way that helped to cause the build up (a failure of the stewarding and police) 4. Despite the police doing toxicology on every dead and injured fan, there was no evideence of drunkedness. Another lie the injured fans were already in the ground and at the front so there wouldn't be any evidence of that it was the people at the back alledgely pushing trying to get in that were reported to be drunk as no toxicology test were issued on these fans it will be very hard to prove that no fan who entered late were sober, The reason Hillsborough will not die is because people keep telling lies about it. There is an ackknoladgement that those in power lied there is no denying that but they are not 100% responacable for what happened if you have to issue a pecentage of the blame to the poilice and stewards it would be 60% to 70% at best not 100% And I would hope that if the police stopped ambulances from treating BCFC fans and let them die on the pitch rather than spoil the grass, a few people on here might get a big angry about it. The police didn;t stop the ambulances from treat people the abulances couldn't get to people due to the design of the ground "There was commentary afterwards on television[citation needed] about the lack of administrable oxygen and metal-cutting tools, and that there was no way to get ambulances onto the pitch." taken from the live match not the police at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbred Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Monkeh, how did two ambulances get onto the pitch then? Ambulances could get onto the pitch but they were stopped in doing so. One of the drivers of the ambulances who got onto the pitch was told by a policeman "you cannot go in, they are still fighting out there" but he ignored him and carried on. They were told not to go on by ppolicemen You really should watch the show that was on last night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Monkeh, how did two ambulances get onto the pitch? Ambulances could get onto the pitch but try were stopped in doing so. One of the drivers of the ambulances who got onto the pitch was told by a policeman "you cannot go in, they are still fighting out there" but he ignored him and carried on. They were told not to go on by ppolicemen You really should watch the show that was on last night. I missed it so couldn't use that thanks for pointing it out, I only went from wat I knew previous I'll put my hands up to that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbred Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 I missed it so couldn't use that thanks for pointing it out, I only went from wat I knew previous I'll put my hands up to that When you see the CCTV footage etc and the signs that were used, it was a very eye opening tv show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 When you see the CCTV footage etc and the signs that were used, it was a very eye opening tv show. was it balanced or one sided?, I was watching Ross Kemp Extreme cities last night, it will be intresting to read the reliesed reports Wednesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Hitler Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 I was Yes Liverpool fans were pushing and shoving to get in, looking back, errors on both sides. After all it wasn't the police that were pushing the fans in, fans need to take some culpability, they won't though, it is easier to blame the entire thing on the police. They made mistakes, fans made mistakes. The Sun was wrong to write what they did, but there were elements of truth in it. Anyway it has long passed, but the Liverpudlian mourning mentality keeps it running and running. The only people that should be interested in it are those directly affected, nobody else. Good summary. Time for everybody but the friends and relatives to let it go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezgimed Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 thanks for that I just spat my coffee over my laptop.......... You seem to spit drinks over your laptop on a daily basis. Does it still work ok? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
db1291 Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 So Monkeh - you just made it up.The police stepped in front of the ambulances and blocked them, telling them that the fans were rioting and it was not safe to enter. Why are you doing this ? Why are you making up facts ? Everything you say is false. You clearly no very little about this but are happy to spread more lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRL Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 So Monkeh - you just made it up.The police stepped in front of the ambulances and blocked them, telling them that the fans were rioting and it was not safe to enter. Why are you doing this ? Why are you making up facts ? Everything you say is false. You clearly no very little about this but are happy to spread more lies. i couldn't tell you if monkeh is making stuff up, or getting it from what is reported. I really haven't watched much footage of it, so couldn't really tell, I am presuming Monkeh is getting it from there. As a witness to it, standing out side, seeing crowds rush to the gates, pushing and shouting, I can only tell you what I saw from the outside, I never made it inside, I chose to get myself out of the throng of people heading for the turnstiles. I guess I was lucky. i never got to see what was happening, we went back to the car and then headed off to a relatives house, only to hear what was unfolding on the radio, and seeing things on the TV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 So Monkeh - you just made it up.The police stepped in front of the ambulances and blocked them, telling them that the fans were rioting and it was not safe to enter. Why are you doing this ? Why are you making up facts ? Everything you say is false. You clearly no very little about this but are happy to spread more lies. I never made it up I used the facts I had at hand DB Sbred pointed out what was on the tele last night and I put my hands, IYou are blaming everything on the police i'm saying they are not soley responcable and that fans are partly to blame, Thats not made up thats a fact that doesn't sit with your post, as TRL said the police are not the ones pushing from the back to get into the ground, the poice are not the ones who installed pens in the stand, yet you are happy to fully blame them, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 i couldn't tell you if monkeh is making stuff up, or getting it from what is reported. I really haven't watched much footage of it, so couldn't really tell, I am presuming Monkeh is getting it from there. As a witness to it, standing out side, seeing crowds rush to the gates, pushing and shouting, I can only tell you what I saw from the outside, I never made it inside, I chose to get myself out of the throng of people heading for the turnstiles. I guess I was lucky. i never got to see what was happening, we went back to the car and then headed off to a relatives house, only to hear what was unfolding on the radio, and seeing things on the TV. from what was reported before last night programme which I didn't watch and Sbred has corrected me on, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRL Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 from what was reported before last night programme which I didn't watch and Sbred has corrected me on, That is fair enough, you can only go on the what is reported Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 That is fair enough, you can only go on the what is reported you summed it up best but people don't want to know the truth if it doesn't fit with their view, My view is the police and stewarding is about 60-70% to blame the rest is the fans and thats the bit liverpool fans won't accept, I keep bringing up Helysel where liverpool fans cause 39 deaths but they seem to forget that as they were not he victims, thats what pisses me off about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRL Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 you summed it up best but people don't want to know the truth if it doesn't fit with their view, My view is the police and stewarding is about 60-70% to blame the rest is the fans and thats the bit liverpool fans won't accept, I keep bringing up Helysel where liverpool fans cause 39 deaths but they seem to forget that as they were not he victims, thats what pisses me off about it We have to stop this agreeing Monkeh, and get back to some bitching, this is well above our level of conversation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 We have to stop this agreeing Monkeh, and get back to some bitching, this is well above our level of conversation! It wouldnt be a good forum if we all agreed would it, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toastienick Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 you summed it up best but people don't want to know the truth if it doesn't fit with their view, My view is the police and stewarding is about 60-70% to blame the rest is the fans and thats the bit liverpool fans won't accept, I keep bringing up Helysel where liverpool fans cause 39 deaths but they seem to forget that as they were not he victims, thats what pisses me off about it agree 100% about the heysel thing, never mentioned in scouseland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In the Net Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Monkeh - it is worth catching up with the programme on i-player http://www.itv.com/i.../?Filter=324782 The cctv shows the crush outside the turnstiles (as experienced by TRL), obviously people headed to the gate when the police opened it (as I guess I would, if I was waiting to get into an FA Cup semi-final to watch my team). One problem was, that the central pens, which were already full, were not closed off before the gate was opened - fans should have been filtered into the two side pens. It isn't just the lies told by senior police officers, but things like the cctv tapes going missing overnight etc It's easy to say "let it go, and move on", but would we have done so if our team/fans were involved? Can we honestly say we've been to a big game, and not seen fans who've had a few beers, or fans asking if anyone has a spare ticket? I hope that Wednesday will finally reveal all the true facts - whatever they may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Monkeh - it is worth catching up with the programme on i-player http://www.itv.com/i.../?Filter=324782 The cctv shows the crush outside the turnstiles (as experienced by TRL), obviously people headed to the gate when the police opened it (as I guess I would, if I was waiting to get into an FA Cup semi-final to watch my team). One problem was, that the central pens, which were already full, were not closed off before the gate was opened - fans should have been filtered into the two side pens. It isn't just the lies told by senior police officers, but things like the cctv tapes going missing overnight etc It's easy to say "let it go, and move on", but would we have done so if our team/fans were involved? Can we honestly say we've been to a big game, and not seen fans who've had a few beers, or fans asking if anyone has a spare ticket? I hope that Wednesday will finally reveal all the true facts - whatever they may be. Indeed there are things that don't add up I'm not nore have I ever denied that i'll give the show a watch, all I'm saying is the police are not 100% responcable for what happened faults are on both sides of the fence some with the fans some with the police and stewarding and some with the stadium design, All those are facts but liverpool fans want to blame everything on anyone but themselfs and thats the bit I find annoying, I want the whole chaptor closed and moved on the 96 people who died will never be forgotten but how long does it take for a subject to be discussed without the whole thing desending into chaos like with that comidien last year who mentioned it only to get death threats, 408 people died in the first boar war do we still mourn them? to a degree yes as part of rememberance sunday which is for all our troops who lost lives not just those of the first and second world war, Let liverpool have there sunday rememberance but stop ramming it in our faces at any chance possible thats when it become cult like and just sad, a bit like the whole maddie mccann thing, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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