Hillsborough

[Fodbarmyarmy]

I was

Yes Liverpool fans were pushing and shoving to get in, looknig back, errors on both sides. After all it wasn't the police that were pushing the fans in, fans need to take some culpribility, they won't though, it is easier to blame the entire thing on the police. They made mistakes, fans made mistakes.

The Sun was wrong to write what they did, but there were elements of truth in it.

Anyway it jhas long paswsed, but the Liverpudlian mourning mentality keeps it running and running. The only people that should be interested in it are theose directly affected, nobody else.

sensible post ...

As in all "tragedies" or "disasters" there are always several differing factors that come together at the wrong time and wrong place and sometimes there is no primary cause to lay blame at the feet of...no matter how much we want to for the sake of closure.

We cannot & should not automaticaly leap to the defence of the supporters just because we are of the same ilk likewise if we were Police or stewards we should not seek to blame soley the fans

What we must accept is the "there but for the grace of god go I" as it could have happened to any set of fans

I in fact witnessed a situation at Bramall lane near the end of the play off season when late arrivals in the Police escort (of which I admit was one) were rushing to get thru the Auto turnstiles so as not to miss the KO.........problem was the electronic tickets stated a particular turnstile number or letter and also stated "use correct turnstile only".....

In the rush to get in many tried to get thru first turnstile thay came across or one without a queue....but if this was not the correct turnstile marked on the ticket then it did not work...causing an agitated build up of fans behind who kept pushing to get in ...Now I'm 6'6 and about 19st and even I couldn't move in the crush as the guy in front of me tried to turn around and get back out .........all stewards were inside by this time and trying to shout instructions to the fans outside .......this is 20yrs after and just a few miles from Hillsborough !!

In the end stewards opened a large double steel doorway which enabled a lot of fans to hand over their tickets and file in which in turn relieved the pressure.......sound familiar?.........difference being this doorway didn't lead everyone into two small restricted pens like it did on that fateful day just up the road

I dont think there is any argument against seating making things safer (200 seats = 200 people allowed in simples) but it certainly does not rule out another tragedy being caused by other similar factors that occured on that day

[Esmond Million's Bung]

sensible post ...

As in all "tragedies" or "disasters" there are always several differing factors that come together at the wrong time and wrong place and sometimes there is no primary cause to lay blame at the feet of...no matter how much we want to for the sake of closure.

We cannot & should not automaticaly leap to the defence of the supporters just because we are of the same ilk likewise if we were Police or stewards we should not seek to blame soley the fans

What we must accept is the "there but for the grace of god go I" as it could have happened to any set of fans

I in fact witnessed a situation at Bramall lane near the end of the play off season when late arrivals in the Police escort (of which I admit was one) were rushing to get thru the Auto turnstiles so as not to miss the KO.........problem was the electronic tickets stated a particular turnstile number or letter and also stated "use correct turnstile only".....

In the rush to get in many tried to get thru first turnstile thay came across or one without a queue....but if this was not the correct turnstile marked on the ticket then it did not work...causing an agitated build up of fans behind who kept pushing to get in ...Now I'm 6'6 and about 19st and even I couldn't move in the crush as the guy in front of me tried to turn around and get back out .........all stewards were inside by this time and trying to shout instructions to the fans outside .......this is 20yrs after and just a few miles from Hillsborough !!

In the end stewards opened a large double steel doorway which enabled a lot of fans to hand over their tickets and file in which in turn relieved the pressure.......sound familiar?.........difference being this doorway didn't lead everyone into two small restricted pens like it did on that fateful day just up the road

I dont think there is any argument against seating making things safer (200 seats = 200 people allowed in simples) but it certainly does not rule out another tragedy being caused by other similar factors that occured on that day

Sort of but I remember QPR away about 12 or so years ago, a thursday night (for ITV) 0-0, they only opened the upper tier and there were clearly not enough seats for everybody by quite some distance, but originally the police and stewards were telling people to sit in the aisles, which is strictly illegal (try doing it in the Dolman) they were threatening to eject and even arrest people who refused to sit in the aisles, the problem started to occur a good 20 minutes before kick off and there was still a long queue waiting to get in 10 minutes after kick off but these fans were still being forced into the upper tier, where there were already no seats. it wasn't until half time the police, stewards and stadium manager allowed the bottom tier to be opened, I would estimate almost 150/200 fans too many were forced into that upper tier.

[sbred]

I dont think there is any argument against seating making things safer (200 seats = 200 people allowed in simples) but it certainly does not rule out another tragedy being caused by other similar factors that occured on that day

200 spaces in a terrace = 200 people allowed in a terrace.

[Monkeh]

200 spaces in a terrace = 200 people allowed in a terrace.

thats what is is now adays,

it wasn't like that back in the 80's it was fit as many as you can in when i was young there were games at the gate where you couldn't move in the open end because of the amount of people packed in there,

Now adays its correctly policed and measured but it took hilsborough for that to happen,

[Fodbarmyarmy]

Sort of but I remember QPR away about 12 or so years ago, a thursday night (for ITV) 0-0, they only opened the upper tier and there were clearly not enough seats for everybody by quite some distance, but originally the police and stewards were telling people to sit in the aisles, which is strictly illegal (try doing it in the Dolman) they were threatening to eject and even arrest people who refused to sit in the aisles, the problem started to occur a good 20 minutes before kick off and there was still a long queue waiting to get in 10 minutes after kick off but these fans were still being forced into the upper tier, where there were already no seats. it wasn't until half time the police, stewards and stadium manager allowed the bottom tier to be opened, I would estimate almost 150/200 fans too many were forced into that upper tier.

Correct...I was there as well...........(Bambi hit the post late on if I recall?)

It was as you describe but it was a bad judgement call to allow more fans than seats .........wonder if it was made because the opening on the lower tier meant delay and delay is not allowed on televised games....big no no?...

[glynriley]

thats what is is now adays,

it wasn't like that back in the 80's it was fit as many as you can in when i was young there were games at the gate where you couldn't move in the open end because of the amount of people packed in there,

Now adays its correctly policed and measured but it took hilsborough for that to happen,

Exactly , the amount of people that used to cram into the East End before the seats went in was unreal at times.

[Fodbarmyarmy]

200 spaces in a terrace = 200 people allowed in a terrace.

agreed.....I happen to think this is the way football should have gone after Hillsborough because IMO standing IS safe as long as numbers are limited & controlled & therefore plenty of room......

[poland_red]

Shed loads of Liverpool supporters turning up late without tickets jibbing the turnstiles didn't help matters.

to a degree I find myself agreeing with you. Which makes this so scarey. Football was a different game then, and I know had that been city in a semi and I didn't have tickets I would have still gone up, and i'd have tried my luck to get into the ground hook or by crook. as i'm sure many others on this forum would have. were it not for the fact that city historically have been pretty crap really, it could have been any of us. Scousers play the victim sure, but i don't think this is the thread nor the platform to be airing that view. RIP and justice pls.

[Portland Bill]

agree it wasn''t some degree though they should never of awarded the game to that ground in the first place it was like having the world cup final at Stockpor, ut they can't be held responcable for the fans on the day who were looking for trouble,

Its easy to look at it in hindsight now but at the time nothing like it had happed and I suspect there were many a large crowd at hilsborough before that

Your obviously unaware that the same thing nearly happened the year before in the FA cup semi at Hillsborough which Liverpool played in.

Infact, before the game was played Liverpool supporters and the club complained about being given the same leppings lane end as the previous year.

They felt that because of there larger support they should have been given the Sheffield Wed kop which is the other end of the ground.

This isnt hindsight, this actually happened.

I get the feeling that you aren't actually aware of a lot of the events of that day but carry on your point of view regardless.

In the 80's most City fans travelling to away games when we had large followings will tell you about mass crushes. It was common place for the police to pen groups of fans inside or outside of grounds in those days.

I clearly remember Newport away in the early 80's when we were all being crushed because the police would not open gates to let us out.

There were many other times when I feared I would be crushed.

As football fans back in those days we were ALL treated like scum by the police, some deserved it but the majority didn't.

So before tarring Liverpool fans, some of you should realise that it could have been any clubs fans at the time.

[Portland Bill]

to a degree I find myself agreeing with you. Which makes this so scarey. Football was a different game then, and I know had that been city in a semi and I didn't have tickets I would have still gone up, and i'd have tried my luck to get into the ground hook or by crook. as i'm sure many others on this forum would have. were it not for the fact that city historically have been pretty crap really, it could have been any of us. Scousers play the victim sure, but i don't think this is the thread nor the platform to be airing that view. RIP and justice pls.

Agree with what you say,it could have been any club.

People on here who weren't around then,haven't got a clue.

[NOTR]

Of course this could of all been settleled at the time if it wasn't for the missing video tapes,pages from police note books and even whole police note books.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Your obviously unaware that the same thing nearly happened the year before in the FA cup semi at Hillsborough which Liverpool played in.

Infact, before the game was played Liverpool supporters and the club complained about being given the same leppings lane end as the previous year.

They felt that because of there larger support they should have been given the Sheffield Wed kop which is the other end of the ground.

This isnt hindsight, this actually happened.

I get the feeling that you aren't actually aware of a lot of the events of that day but carry on your point of view regardless.

In the 80's most City fans travelling to away games when we had large followings will tell you about mass crushes. It was common place for the police to pen groups of fans inside or outside of grounds in those days.

I clearly remember Newport away in the early 80's when we were all being crushed because the police would not open gates to let us out.

There were many other times when I feared I would be crushed.

As football fans back in those days we were ALL treated like scum by the police, some deserved it but the majority didn't.

So before tarring Liverpool fans, some of you should realise that it could have been any clubs fans at the time.

Crushes like that are because the people at the back think it's funny to push forward, even though the crowd are being told to wait until the gates are open.

I have to say having been to Wembley on many occasions for internationals, cup finals, charity shield and with BCFC, the only times I ever encountered any problems whatsoever was when either Everton or Liverpool was involved. I was at Wembley for the Everton v Man U cup final in 85 and was in with the Everton fans, it is the only time I have ever known any crushing whatsoever at Wembley that end was definately over filled with far too many people, could'nt move any which way, to be honest it was quite scary and at times difficult to breathe.

I was also at the 86 Liverpool v Everton cup final the dangers that fans were taking trying to get in absolutely beggared belief, I remember Liverpool fans being pulled up by scarves knotted together and this video that i've attached shows the lengths and dangers these fans went to get into wembley in those days and the drunkeness on the day was the worst I have ever encountered at Wembley and certainly the police were very busy at both games, that's for sure.

To be quite honest what ever the rights and wrongs of the Hillsborough disaster, the fact that it involved one of the Liverpool clubs fans was the only thing on the day that didn't surprise me.

http://www.liverpool...o-wembley-1986/

[TRL]

Crushes like that are because the people at the back think it's funny to push forward, even though the crowd are being told to wait until the gates are open.

I have to say having been to Wembley on many occasions for internationals, cup finals, charity shield and with BCFC, the only times I ever encountered any problems whatsoever was when either Everton or Liverpool was involved. I was at Wembley for the Everton v Man U cup final in 85 and was in with the Everton fans, it is the only time I have ever known any crushing whatsoever at Wembley that end was definately over filled with far too many people, could'nt move any which way, to be honest it was quite scary and at times difficult to breathe.

I was also at the 86 Liverpool v Everton cup final the dangers that fans were taking trying to get in absolutely beggared belief, I remember Liverpool fans being pulled up by scarves knotted together and this video that i've attached shows the lengths and dangers these fans went to get into wembley in those days and the drunkeness on the day was the worst I have ever encountered at Wembley and certainly the police were very busy at both games, that's for sure.

To be quite honest what ever the rights and wrongs of the Hillsborough disaster, the fact that it involved one of the Liverpool clubs fans was the only thing on the day that didn't surprise me.

http://www.liverpool...o-wembley-1986/

That is very much the type of behaviour I witnessed.

They will not take responsibility, but quite happily blame others. Sure there was blame. I am sure the idiots I witnessed have some sort of guilt on their concious, shame they won't admit it to the families, instead they go after the police.

It's time accountability was taken by both sides.

It won't happen of course.

[Cunnyfunt]

you summed it up best but people don't want to know the truth if it doesn't fit with their view,

My view is the police and stewarding is about 60-70% to blame the rest is the fans and thats the bit liverpool fans won't accept,

I keep bringing up Helysel where liverpool fans cause 39 deaths but they seem to forget that as they were not he victims, thats what pisses me off about it

I concur

[Monkeh]

Your obviously unaware that the same thing nearly happened the year before in the FA cup semi at Hillsborough which Liverpool played in.

Infact, before the game was played Liverpool supporters and the club complained about being given the same leppings lane end as the previous year.

They felt that because of there larger support they should have been given the Sheffield Wed kop which is the other end of the ground.

This isnt hindsight, this actually happened.

I get the feeling that you aren't actually aware of a lot of the events of that day but carry on your point of view regardless.

In the 80's most City fans travelling to away games when we had large followings will tell you about mass crushes. It was common place for the police to pen groups of fans inside or outside of grounds in those days.

I clearly remember Newport away in the early 80's when we were all being crushed because the police would not open gates to let us out.

There were many other times when I feared I would be crushed.

As football fans back in those days we were ALL treated like scum by the police, some deserved it but the majority didn't.

So before tarring Liverpool fans, some of you should realise that it could have been any clubs fans at the time.

i was around then and remember it if you bothered to read my post bill instead of picking on one little bit I wasn't taring the liverpool fanns as scum I haven't mentioned that anywhere,

I've said I'm pissed off with the self pittying people who if you dare to question anything they will send you death threats this has happened it is fact and people have been arrested for it,

I said and I'll spell it out slowly so your simple mind can take it on board

THE POLICE ARE NOT SOLELY RRPONACABLE AND KAN ONLY BE HELD ACCOUNT FOR ABOUT 70% OF WHAT HAPPEND LIVERPOOL FANS SHARE A BIT OF THE BLAME THEY WERE THE ONES PUSHING TO GET IN,

again they seem to forget helysel as it deoesn'y suit there victim adgenda

[Red-Robbo]

Which was that game a few season's back that we had a huge crush at? (the old grey matter is failing to recall either the opponent or the reason for the crush).

I do remember however the gate between the Atyeo and the Dolman being pushed off its hinges by the weight of supporters - and some fairly prolonged battering from those trapped outside it (including me!).

Obviously, nowhere near as serious as the topic here, but it just goes to show that if you don't get your plans in place, relatively small crowds of placid football supporters can find themselves in potentially dangerous situations.

The professionals are meant to be in charge of ensuring crowd safety. Which is what they didn't do in Hillsborough,

[Monkeh]

Which was that game a few season's back that we had a huge crush at? (the old grey matter is failing to recall either the opponent or the reason for the crush).

I do remember however the gate between the Atyeo and the Dolman being pushed off its hinges by the weight of supporters - and some fairly prolonged battering from those trapped outside it (including me!).

Obviously, nowhere near as serious as the topic here, but it just goes to show that if you don't get your plans in place, relatively small crowds of placid football supporters can find themselves in potentially dangerous situations.

The professionals are meant to be in charge of ensuring crowd safety. Which is what they didn't do in Hillsborough,

wasn't that a bristol derby where they sold seat twice in the dolman and atyeo in 96 or something

[TRL]

Which was that game a few season's back that we had a huge crush at? (the old grey matter is failing to recall either the opponent or the reason for the crush).

I do remember however the gate between the Atyeo and the Dolman being pushed off its hinges by the weight of supporters - and some fairly prolonged battering from those trapped outside it (including me!).

Obviously, nowhere near as serious as the topic here, but it just goes to show that if you don't get your plans in place, relatively small crowds of placid football supporters can find themselves in potentially dangerous situations.

The professionals are meant to be in charge of ensuring crowd safety. Which is what they didn't do in Hillsborough,

I'm afraid people must take responsibility for their own actions.

Stewards and police can do so much, but once you get a whole host of people pushing and shoving there is not a whole lot you can do.

It is so easy to aportion blame in one direction, especially when you feel guilt yourself.

Let's not forget stewards and police were also getting crushed.

[Red-Robbo]

wasn't that a bristol derby where they sold seat twice in the dolman and atyeo in 96 or something

I had a feeling it was in the Johnson era, but clearly I had numerous braincells destroyed by being scarcely able to breathe in the melee of bodies outside the Dolman, so I can't be sure.

[Red-Robbo]

I'm afraid people must take responsibility for their own actions.

.

My point would be, people push to get in in all sorts of crowds - at festivals, gigs, clubs, the London Underground, firework displays and even in fairly modestly attended football matches.

Those pushing clearly do not think their actions could lead to any harm. In fact, they may not even recognise themselves as causing any sort of crush - particularly if they've been directed by "officials" to go through an already congested entrance.

It IS up to officials to deal with this aspect of crowd behaviour. That's what they are paid for.

I should add that the Taylor report found no evidence of any unusually large numbers of latecomers at the Hillsborough game, nor of any particularly unusual pattern of drinking. It did find a lack of police and stewards where they should have been directing people to the alternative pens once the central ones had been filled.

[TRL]

My point would be, people push to get in in all sorts of crowds - at festivals, gigs, clubs, the London Underground, firework displays and even in fairly modestly attended football matches.

Those pushing clearly do not think their actions could lead to any harm. In fact, they may not even recognise themselves as causing any sort of crush - particularly if they've been directed by "officials" to go through an already congested entrance.

EeIt IS up to officials to deal with this aspect of crowd behaviour. That's what they are paid for.

I should add that the Taylor report found no evidence of any unusually large numbers of latecomers at the Hillsborough game, nor of any particularly unusual pattern of drinking. It did find a lack of police and stewards where they should have been directing people to the alternative pens once the central ones had been filled.

Either way there were people pushing shoving, drunks running up to the back of the crowd and jumping at it.

Common sense says getting through turnstyles isn't helped by shoving.

Fact of the matter, fans were massively at fault, you wouldn't smash your car into the one in front in a traffic jam! And the crowd operation was poor as well.

Disgusting behaviour by fans, and poor control by those in charge. All culpable, no doubt in my mind after what I witnessed.

[Red-Robbo]

Yeah, if you work in crowd control you have to cater for crap behaviour by punters. Expect it even. That's why it's a challenging job. But that's why you get paid.

If everyone behaved perfectly we could have football games stewarded by girl guides and the clubs could save a fortune.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

My point would be, people push to get in in all sorts of crowds - at festivals, gigs, clubs, the London Underground, firework displays and even in fairly modestly attended football matches.

Those pushing clearly do not think their actions could lead to any harm. In fact, they may not even recognise themselves as causing any sort of crush - particularly if they've been directed by "officials" to go through an already congested entrance.

It IS up to officials to deal with this aspect of crowd behaviour. That's what they are paid for.

I should add that the Taylor report found no evidence of any unusually large numbers of latecomers at the Hillsborough game, nor of any particularly unusual pattern of drinking. It did find a lack of police and stewards where they should have been directing people to the alternative pens once the central ones had been filled.

What a silly comment, you would need almost twice as many stewards and police to be able stop anything like that happening or smaller individual sections within grounds and controlled release to avoid pushing like you describe. Both things football fans would not tolerate, fans do have a role in this of course they have it's called good behaviour, if you have been informed that you are being held back for 20 minutes however difficult that might be all the pushing in the world won't make the time go quicker and it's obviously dangerous.

At Plymouth 1-1 draw several seasons ago, there was pushing causing not only unnecessary crushing but also fighting amongst our own fans on the way out of that match.

[TRL]

Yeah, if you work in crowd control you have to cater for crap behaviour by punters. Expect it even. That's why it's a challenging job. But that's why you get paid.

If everyone behaved perfectly we could have football games stewarded by girl guides and the clubs could save a fortune.

Trouble is, crowd control have no real control, as soon as you try to calm a crowd, and they don't listen, there is only so much you can do. Unfortunately our legal system stop people from getting to physical. Once the police respond on their behalf, the typical football Neanderthal behaviour kicks in, and groups start attacking police, taking away resource from the point they should be policing.

Fans really can be their own worst enemies, and unfortunately, quite often it is the innocent that live with the consequences

Like I have been banging on about from the start. Take responsibility for your own actions. Both sides.

[sbred]

The police theb year before closed the tunnel when the pen was full. That year they didn't.

That was a mistake by the police. If you see an entry your you to go for it, how would you know it's full?

[Red-Robbo]

What a silly comment, you would need almost twice as many stewards and police to be able stop anything like that happening or smaller individual sections within grounds and controlled release to avoid pushing like you describe. Both things football fans would not tolerate, fans do have a role in this of course they have it's called good behaviour, if you have been informed that you are being held back for 20 minutes however difficult that might be all the pushing in the world won't make the time go quicker and it's obviously dangerous.

At Plymouth 1-1 draw several seasons ago, there was pushing causing not only unnecessary crushing but also fighting amongst our own fans on the way out of that match.

So you are saying that those charging money to control crowds at large events should not make contingencies for what happens regularly at such events?

Regardless of the behaviour of some at the back of the crowd, the crush should've been prevented by police and stewards being positioned in front of the central pens and able to direct those arriving to the relatively empty side pens.

That isn't my wild opinion - that is a central finding of the Taylor Report.

A few bods in uniform in the right place could have prevented this.

[TRL]

What a silly comment, you would need almost twice as many stewards and police to be able stop anything like that happening or smaller individual sections within grounds and controlled release to avoid pushing like you describe. Both things football fans would not tolerate, fans do have a role in this of course they have it's called good behaviour, if you have been informed that you are being held back for 20 minutes however difficult that might be all the pushing in the world won't make the time go quicker and it's obviously dangerous.

At Plymouth 1-1 draw several seasons ago, there was pushing causing not only unnecessary crushing but also fighting amongst our own fans on the way out of that match.

Trouble is damned if they do damned if they don't.

Too many, complaints about police costs, too little fans complain they could not deal with the crowd. Never a happy medium for most football fans.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

So you are saying that those charging money to control crowds at large events should not make contingencies for what happens regularly at such events?

Regardless of the behaviour of some at the back of the crowd, the crush should've been prevented by police and stewards being positioned in front of the central pens and able to direct those arriving to the relatively empty side pens.

That isn't my wild opinion - that is a central finding of the Taylor Report.

A few bods in uniform in the right place could have prevented this.

Naive, look at the video I posted, Liverpool fans are focused on one thing and that is getting in to the game and getting out after the game. Bearing in mind that video was from the 86 final, the scenes were very similar for the 89 final (not long after Hillsborough) and the dangers these people put themselves into to get into big games beggars belief, these people are driven and either don't see or more likely don't care about danger too themselves or others.

Believe a few bods in uniform to these people would not make the slightest difference.

[TRL]

So you are saying that those charging money to control crowds at large events should not make contingencies for what happens regularly at such events?

Regardless of the behaviour of some at the back of the crowd, the crush should've been prevented by police and stewards being positioned in front of the central pens and able to direct those arriving to the relatively empty side pens.

That isn't my wild opinion - that is a central finding of the Taylor Report.

A few bods in uniform in the right place could have prevented this.

Great, doesn't stop the fans pushing others into turnstyles before they ever get in!. This is why the gates were opened from what I have read. Never got inside, just saw the crush on the outside.

Sorry robbo, if you cannot take responsibility for your own actions why should someone else, risking getting crushed themselves? They don't get paid enough to get in that throng of supporters when a large chunk are acting dangerously. I have a vivid memory of a guy in a flash jacket Bering carried off his feet, in the middle of the crowd, heading towards the entrance, no one taking any notice of his shouts. God knows where he ended up!

[In the Net]

The previous year there had been barriers in place on the approach to Leppings Lane, which slowed the pace of crowd approaching the turnstiles. The lack of any such crowd control measures on this occasion was commented on by quite a few people who had attended the previous semi-final. This was probably down to the senior officer's lack of experience in crowd control for such matches.

It is unfortunate that there is a need to plan for unreasonable behaviour by certain elements, but unfortunately that is the reality.