Esmond Million's Bung Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Great, doesn't stop the fans pushing others into turnstyles before they ever get in!. This is why the gates were opened from what I have read. Never got inside, just saw the crush on the outside. Sorry robbo, if you cannot take responsibility for your own actions why should someone else, risking getting crushed themselves? They don't get paid enough to get in that throng of supporters when a large chunk are acting dangerously. I have a vivid memory of a guy in a flash jacket Bering carried off his feet, in the middle of the crowd, heading towards the entrance, no one taking any notice of his shouts. God knows where he ended up! Having witnessed more than one occasion where being held back by police dogs and having the people behind believing it's great fun to try to push forward forcing the front rows into the police dogs, says all you need to know about the mentality of some fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 The previous year there had been barriers in place on the approach to Leppings Lane, which slowed the pace of crowd approaching the turnstiles. The lack of any such crowd control measures on this occasion was commented on by quite a few people who had attended the previous semi-final. This was probably down to the senior officer's lack of experience in crowd control for such matches. It is unfortunate that there is a need to plan for unreasonable behaviour by certain elements, but unfortunately that is the reality. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRL Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Having witnessed more than one occasion where being held back by police dogs and having the people behind believing it's great fun to try to push forward forcing the front rows into the police dogs, says all you need to know about the mentality of some fans. Yep, you cannot legislate for arseholes. If there was a endless pit of money to police it maybe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Great, doesn't stop the fans pushing others into turnstyles before they ever get in!. This is why the gates were opened from what I have read. Never got inside, just saw the crush on the outside. Sorry robbo, if you cannot take responsibility for your own actions why should someone else, risking getting crushed themselves? They don't get paid enough to get in that throng of supporters when a large chunk are acting dangerously. I have a vivid memory of a guy in a flash jacket Bering carried off his feet, in the middle of the crowd, heading towards the entrance, no one taking any notice of his shouts. God knows where he ended up! The fact is there wasn't anyone there. A total failure to control what is rather fundamental to crowd policing - stopping people getting into overcrowded areas. Again, not my opinion, that of Lord Justice Taylor. My basic point is that no-one has faced any sanction due to their failure that day - which is why people still feel aggrieved. And yes, of course, numerous crowd members should be examining their consciences over their yobbish drunken pushing that day. But there was only one group there in a professional capacity, getting paid and expected to protect lives - the police, stadium management and stewards. And they failed. Failed utterly. I have to say that we have these circular arguments on OTIB on a frequent basis and I really feel that if it were Bristol City fans who had lost their lives, not fans of an easy to dislike club from an easy to dislike city, people's stances would be quite different. We'd all be demanding justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publandlord Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Ok I wasn't there but did live in Sheffield for 15 years in the 70s and early 80s. I have visited the ground over 100 times and know the layout very well, I have been in capacity crowds there and think I know a little. For all the Liverpool blamers I dont like whingers but... Lord Taylors enquiry took photographs of the Leppings Lane end taken just after kick off, the vast majority of fans were in the ground at this time. These photoes were blown up and every head was counted. The total people in the end was UNDER capacity this means that NO blame can be put on people without tickets the ground had and would have held more people safely. Why the problem then?? Simple Taylor found that the 2 middle pens were over capacity the the outer 2 were under. Your ticket does not state a specific pen on it, people head for the middle 2 for a better view. Why didn't this happen before. Because in every previous game when the 2 middle pens became full 10 police officers linked arms and prevented entry into the tunnel lo tech solution but it worked every time. Dukinfield (police officer in charge) opened a gate but did not put the 10 policeman in front of the tunnel He was to blame was prosecuted privately but the jury couldn't agree This is why Taylor blamed the police lack of this one simple police action lead to the disaster. By the way how many more would have died in the Bradford fire if there had been fences there????? The sun was trying to protect thatcher who had forced fences in div 1 and 2 football grounds The same quality of reporting repeated in the Milly Dowler case 20 years later where phone hacking by the sun lead Milly's parents to believe she was still alive And there are still people on here that buy the sun I wouldn't wipe my ass on it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 The fact is there wasn't anyone there. A total failure to control what is rather fundamental to crowd policing - stopping people getting into overcrowded areas. Again, not my opinion, that of Lord Justice Taylor. My basic point is that no-one has faced any sanction due to their failure that day - which is why people still feel aggrieved. And yes, of course, numerous crowd members should be examining their consciences over their yobbish drunken pushing that day. But there was only one group there in a professional capacity, getting paid and expected to protect lives - the police, stadium management and stewards. And they failed. Failed utterly. I have to say that we have these circular arguments on OTIB on a frequent basis and I really feel that if it were Bristol City fans who had lost their lives, not fans of an easy to dislike club from an easy to dislike city, people's stances would be quite different. We'd all be demanding justice. of course we would, I think the point is we have obviously already had one whitewash, we do not need another one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 The fact is there wasn't anyone there. A total failure to control what is rather fundamental to crowd policing - stopping people getting into overcrowded areas. Again, not my opinion, that of Lord Justice Taylor. My basic point is that no-one has faced any sanction due to their failure that day - which is why people still feel aggrieved. And yes, of course, numerous crowd members should be examining their consciences over their yobbish drunken pushing that day. But there was only one group there in a professional capacity, getting paid and expected to protect lives - the police, stadium management and stewards. And they failed. Failed utterly. I have to say that we have these circular arguments on OTIB on a frequent basis and I really feel that if it were Bristol City fans who had lost their lives, not fans of an easy to dislike club from an easy to dislike city, people's stances would be quite different. We'd all be demanding justice. there never will be anyone held acount because it wasn't one failing it was a collective of failings that turned into a diasister something liverpool fans refuse to believe they want top see some one strung up regardless of innocence or guilt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 there never will be anyone held acount because it wasn't one failing it was a collective of failings that turned into a diasister something liverpool fans refuse to believe they want top see some one strung up regardless of innocence or guilt Well maybe some of them do. But I'd imagine the majority - and other folk a bit concerned about a whitewash and the cavalier way footall fans are treated in this country - would just be satisfied by the filling in the gap Taylor left out. His honour's report correctly identified the major cause of the disaster (see publandlord's post above) but in common with other senior members of the judiciary, Taylor was pathologically unable to make direct criticisms of individual policemen. Many of the senior officers who ballsed up that day are now dead, but some sort of acknowledgement that their failure to apply the basic principles of crowd control led to deaths, would be useful. That might discourage a similar cover up from happening, should the same sort of thing happen again. I agree it is far too late in the day to prosecute any individual or organisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 i was around then and remember it if you bothered to read my post bill instead of picking on one little bit I wasn't taring the liverpool fanns as scum I haven't mentioned that anywhere, I've said I'm pissed off with the self pittying people who if you dare to question anything they will send you death threats this has happened it is fact and people have been arrested for it, I said and I'll spell it out slowly so your simple mind can take it on board THE POLICE ARE NOT SOLELY RRPONACABLE AND KAN ONLY BE HELD ACCOUNT FOR ABOUT 70% OF WHAT HAPPEND LIVERPOOL FANS SHARE A BIT OF THE BLAME THEY WERE THE ONES PUSHING TO GET IN, again they seem to forget helysel as it deoesn'y suit there victim adgenda Simple mind? Grow up fella,if you can't take criticism don't keep giving it out. I stand by what I said, you don't know enough about what happened, but still think your right in everything you say. I will leave you with one word, Helsinki. Ps, practise your spelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Simple mind? Grow up fella,if you can't take criticism don't keep giving it out. I stand by what I said, you don't know enough about what happened, but still think your right in everything you say. I will leave you with one word, Helsinki. Ps, practise your spelling. I'm dyslexic you cock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Ok I wasn't there but did live in Sheffield for 15 years in the 70s and early 80s. I have visited the ground over 100 times and know the layout very well, I have been in capacity crowds there and think I know a little. For all the Liverpool blamers I dont like whingers but... Lord Taylors enquiry took photographs of the Leppings Lane end taken just after kick off, the vast majority of fans were in the ground at this time. These photoes were blown up and every head was counted. The total people in the end was UNDER capacity this means that NO blame can be put on people without tickets the ground had and would have held more people safely. Why the problem then?? Simple Taylor found that the 2 middle pens were over capacity the the outer 2 were under. Your ticket does not state a specific pen on it, people head for the middle 2 for a better view. Why didn't this happen before. Because in every previous game when the 2 middle pens became full 10 police officers linked arms and prevented entry into the tunnel lo tech solution but it worked every time. Dukinfield (police officer in charge) opened a gate but did not put the 10 policeman in front of the tunnel He was to blame was prosecuted privately but the jury couldn't agree This is why Taylor blamed the police lack of this one simple police action lead to the disaster. By the way how many more would have died in the Bradford fire if there had been fences there????? The sun was trying to protect thatcher who had forced fences in div 1 and 2 football grounds The same quality of reporting repeated in the Milly Dowler case 20 years later where phone hacking by the sun lead Milly's parents to believe she was still alive And there are still people on here that buy the sun I wouldn't wipe my ass on it Cracking post,well said. It's nice to see a few facts get in the way of a lot of imaginary stuff on here. Just a shame that the same old posters won't believe what your telling them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 I'm dyslexic you cock The first two words would have been sufficient. Ffs, my teenage son had a better attitude than you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliftonville Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Actually monkeh you are disrespectful to those who lost loved ones. Your posts are riddled with inaccuracy, at least try to evidence base your blind ignorant opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Actually monkeh you are disrespectful to those who lost loved ones. Your posts are riddled with inaccuracy, at least try to evidence base your blind ignorant opinion. Please explain how I'm being disrespectful to the families? I have simpathy for the families who lost their lives I just don't like the way you can never mention anything that would put liverpool fans in a slightly bad light on the subject, I'm stating that blaming the police and stewards for the whole tragic event is not fair they should the majority of the blame but not all of it, and thats the bit people don't want to hear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Well maybe some of them do. But I'd imagine the majority - and other folk a bit concerned about a whitewash and the cavalier way footall fans are treated in this country - would just be satisfied by the filling in the gap Taylor left out. His honour's report correctly identified the major cause of the disaster (see publandlord's post above) but in common with other senior members of the judiciary, Taylor was pathologically unable to make direct criticisms of individual policemen. Many of the senior officers who ballsed up that day are now dead, but some sort of acknowledgement that their failure to apply the basic principles of crowd control led to deaths, would be useful. That might discourage a similar cover up from happening, should the same sort of thing happen again. I agree it is far too late in the day to prosecute any individual or organisation. can't really argue with that and you make an intresting point about the sun a paper I can't stand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john shaws hair Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Actually monkeh you are disrespectful to those who lost loved ones. Your posts are riddled with inaccuracy, at least try to evidence base your blind ignorant opinion. hes entitled to his opinion its a forum i cant see any posts where hes been disrespectful wind your neck in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notsobigfatdave Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Can I respectfully ask that you consider the facts before coming out with such a stupid and unsubstantiated comments. Fair comment, but as Ive posted before on this subject some time ago both my brothers, two freinds and myself were present at Hillsbrough that terrible day. We all know what we saw. Yes in hindsight the police were wrong to open the gates, but there were such a volume of supporters outside anxious to enter they probably would have forced the gates anyway. Many didnt have tickets we lost count of the number of Liverpool supporters who approached us hoping to buy ours and many were, shall we say, worse for wear... Im just thankfull we didnt gain entry because minutes before we were right in the thick of it. The surge was sadly typical of a large group of supporters jostling for position and not unlike the opening of harrods January sale. The police were perhaps naive in thinking the throng would enter in an orderly fashion. The Liverpool supporters should indeed take some of the blame and it certainly should not all be burdened on the Authorities. A terrible tradegy and we should never forget the innocents..... but time to move on.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliftonville Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 JSH if you wish to cross reference monkehs first main point with the Taylor report and the HSE enquiry you can decide if he is posting something that is relevent, or factual in its context. Respectful? Hardly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 I wish people would just leave hilsborouhh and move on Ffs The bradford fire the Helsinki disaster are both just as bad but doesn't get the media headlines it deserves because 1 didn't involve liverpooland the other was caused by Liverpool The police terracing and fans didn't cause it the fencing round the ground did, if that want there the fans could of over flowed on to the pitch what part of that is disrespectful to the families of those who lost their life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john shaws hair Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 JSH if you wish to cross reference monkehs first main point with the Taylor report and the HSE enquiry you can decide if he is posting something that is relevent, or factual in its context. Respectful? Hardly. see above post for a fans eye veiw all hes saying is the liverpool fans must except some responsibility for there actions which they must i no its sad and a lot of innocent people died that day but facts are facts and lfc supporters didnt help the situation at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbred Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 see above post for a fans eye veiw all hes saying is the liverpool fans must except some responsibility for there actions which they must i no its sad and a lot of innocent people died that day but facts are facts and lfc supporters didnt help the situation at all I'm failing to see how Liverpool fans made the situation worse. What did the do that was wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john shaws hair Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 I'm failing to see how Liverpool fans made the situation worse. What did the do that was wrong? really ....... read fatdaves post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Cracking post,well said. It's nice to see a few facts get in the way of a lot of imaginary stuff on here. Just a shame that the same old posters won't believe what your telling them. Er, I agree that there is a lot of conjecture on this thread, but let's not forget that there are two eyewitness posters on here (TRL & notsobigfatdave) who actually back up some of these 'fantasy' posts. I think to summarise (again) what many on here feel, there were a number of mistakes made by the police on the day for which they've never been held accountable and should be. However one if those mistakes was in failing to control a crowd who were pushing to get in to the ground- if you want to refute the pushing and the ticketless fans then I suggest you reply directly to TRL or notsobigfatdave and call them liars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbcfc Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Liverpool has always had a complex. They feel they are always the victims. I feel for the families who lost loved ones but this event has been manipulated by the scousers to play up to their victim tags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Er, I agree that there is a lot of conjecture on this thread, but let's not forget that there are two eyewitness posters on here (TRL & notsobigfatdave) who actually back up some of these 'fantasy' posts. I think to summarise (again) what many on here feel, there were a number of mistakes made by the police on the day for which they've never been held accountable and should be. However one if those mistakes was in failing to control a crowd who were pushing to get in to the ground- if you want to refute the pushing and the ticketless fans then I suggest you reply directly to TRL or notsobigfatdave and call them liars It's easier for them to target me because they know I won't lie down and take it thus getting the rise they are after they won't dare attack eye witnesses as it doesn't back their view Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notsobigfatdave Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Er, I agree that there is a lot of conjecture on this thread, but let's not forget that there are two eyewitness posters on here (TRL & notsobigfatdave) who actually back up some of these 'fantasy' posts. I think to summarise (again) what many on here feel, there were a number of mistakes made by the police on the day for which they've never been held accountable and should be. However one if those mistakes was in failing to control a crowd who were pushing to get in to the ground- if you want to refute the pushing and the ticketless fans then I suggest you reply directly to TRL or notsobigfatdave and call them liars Quite.... The Authorities were wrong in many respects and should be accountable for the mistakes they made but its impossible to control the actions of an individual apart from pure physical restraint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Er, I agree that there is a lot of conjecture on this thread, but let's not forget that there are two eyewitness posters on here (TRL & notsobigfatdave) who actually back up some of these 'fantasy' posts. I think to summarise (again) what many on here feel, there were a number of mistakes made by the police on the day for which they've never been held accountable and should be. However one if those mistakes was in failing to control a crowd who were pushing to get in to the ground- if you want to refute the pushing and the ticketless fans then I suggest you reply directly to TRL or notsobigfatdave and call them liars What I did was reply to a post from someone who came out with facts. Facts from the inquiry, ive never said there wasn't pushing,or ticketless fans,this was the 80's and it happened at most games I was at during that time. EVERY game Liverpool play there are ticketless fans,so i don't see the relevance,and as someone pointed out earlier in this thread, the Liverpool end was NOT over capacity. The middle pen was,but the outer pens had plenty of room. Let's deal in facts, leave the shite to the likes of the sun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 It's easier for them to target me because they know I won't lie down and take it thus getting the rise they are after they won't dare attack eye witnesses as it doesn't back their view The reason people have attacked your posts are because they are wrong, simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eco Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Liverpool has always had a complex. They feel they are always the victims. I feel for the families who lost loved ones but this event has been manipulated by the scousers to play up to their victim tags. I think the Hillsborough Families Support Group would probably disagree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Fair comment, but as Ive posted before on this subject some time ago both my brothers, two freinds and myself were present at Hillsbrough that terrible day. We all know what we saw. Yes in hindsight the police were wrong to open the gates, but there were such a volume of supporters outside anxious to enter they probably would have forced the gates anyway. Many didnt have tickets we lost count of the number of Liverpool supporters who approached us hoping to buy ours and many were, shall we say, worse for wear... Im just thankfull we didnt gain entry because minutes before we were right in the thick of it. The surge was sadly typical of a large group of supporters jostling for position and not unlike the opening of harrods January sale. The police were perhaps naive in thinking the throng would enter in an orderly fashion. The Liverpool supporters should indeed take some of the blame and it certainly should not all be burdened on the Authorities. A terrible tradegy and we should never forget the innocents..... but time to move on.. Have you ever been to a Liverpool game where you HAVENT been asked if you have a ticket or want to buy or sell one? Them and the Mancs have this at every game, your being very nieve if you think this only happened in Sheffield 89. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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