Je Suis Ultra

[Rich]

I don't believe one in four people believe they have been abducted by aliens... That theory is in no way comparable.

 

You say that it is not a term for violent, right wing fascists yet if you google the term 'ultras' it shows pictures of violent football hooligans and takes you to links of the groups that 25% of the people on this forum associate the word with. 

With all respect, I did not say that one in four people believe they had been abducted by aliens. I said a handful of people believe that.

I was trying to say that some of those agreeing with the club could be mistaken in their belief about how the word Ultra is perceived or it's meaning in Britain/Bristol. Also that, some are supporting the club regardless and that, some have been asked to support the club, by the club. Indeed, I would suggest that some of those supporting the club are actually employed by the club. So to summarise, I do not believe that all the people supporting the club are as independent as it would appear  when counting 20-25% of those who've voted. 

I also realise that it is possible that there are some far right wing people possibly voting against the club but, looking at the comments I doubt that.

[Rich]

I do not buy the conspiracy theory I am afraid, and would suggest for the vast majority of fans this has passed them by, and they are delighted with the success on the pitch.

This whole issue just seems plain silly in my mind. There is a hard cord of support however, who want a different experience. They are feeling somewhat disenfranchised, and let's be honest, they are the ones who from a distance seemed to have worked their nuts off to try and create some atmosphere in the ground, and try a few new things.

Are they the 'silent majority'? Almost certainly not. Is there room for them anymore? I would bloody hope so, and that they are embraced by the club. I also just do not see the link between this group and the 'nutters brigade'. This flag is in many ways trivial, but maybe to them more of a much wider symptom?

There needs to be room for us all in the new world. I am still confident there will be, and I hope BSs learning curve is a sharp one. It seems a huge over reaction to have banned this flag. Some of the reactions to that have been, well, OTT as well. We have a choice. Either BS are so out of touch, and want to sanitise the whole thing completely, in which case involvement will ultimately be pointless. Or their heart is in the right place, they are very new, and making some duff decisions on the way, alongside some good ones. We surely simply have to accept for now it's the latter, and look to help shorten their learning curve. If it's the former, we are screwed anyway!

I agree. What conspiracy theory?

[screech]

They'll reap what they sow regarding atmosphere. The club are bleating about lack of atmosphere yet will do everything in their power to upset the very fans who want to create it.

You have the atmosphere you deserve, what a lousy bunch you are.

[One Team]

I find the response by DaveL deeply alarming. Amongst the tone of his reply I note the perceived alignment of fascism with Ultra groups (I'll ignore for the moment that some Ultras have alignment to the far left AND far right in some countries) and therefore the 'flag' in question, therefore our supporters.

 

This along with the rationale to me is at best ironic and at worst hypocritical, even ignorant; surely everything about the response is exactly what DaveL and BS claim the 'Ultra' word and flag to be?

 

One Team

[Robin Ashton]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/football-revolution-as-disillusioned-fans-head-for-the-nonleague-9810932.html

Article on non-league ultras. Mangotsfield banned one group for having an anti-fascist flag.

[BTRFTG]

Perhaps to appease all the disgruntled flag wavers out there Bristol Sport could invest this transfer window in a

[Leveller]

You are a sucker for what the media feed you.

Do your own research, and come back and tell me for sure that the 'Ultra' movement is entirely right-wing fascism.  In fact, don't even do your own research, there are multiple posts on this very thread which will tell you that you are wrong.

 

As for the final sentence - wow!!  Just wow!!

 

An "East End Ultra's" flag is similar to flying a swastika.  Wow!!!!

Well thanks for the gratuitous insults.

I did not suggest that the Ultra movement is entirely right wing fascism - I simply said I associate it with right wing extremists abroad. I do not have a great knowledge of English Ultra movements and I accept they may well simply be very enthusiastic fans with no links to fascism.

However, I am aware of the unpleasant side of Italian Ultra culture and don't want our club linked with that.

If "our" Ultras are so innocent, perhaps they should choose another name to avoid confusion with the animals at Lazio, Napoli etc? There are clearly Italian Ultras who have sympathies with Mussolini and Hitler, so the swastika reference is not facetious or far fetched, and an outsider who knows more about world politics than football politics would quite likely feel the same unease I do.

[Cambridge Batch Red]

Well thanks for the gratuitous insults.

I did not suggest that the Ultra movement is entirely right wing fascism - I simply said I associate it with right wing extremists abroad. I do not have a great knowledge of English Ultra movements and I accept they may well simply be very enthusiastic fans with no links to fascism.

However, I am aware of the unpleasant side of Italian Ultra culture and don't want our club linked with that.

If "our" Ultras are so innocent, perhaps they should choose another name to avoid confusion with the animals at Lazio, Napoli etc? There are clearly Italian Ultras who have sympathies with Mussolini and Hitler, so the swastika reference is not facetious or far fetched, and an outsider who knows more about world politics than football politics would quite likely feel the same unease I do.

Just explain how the name East End Ultras could be conflated with a group from Napoli or Lazio.

[EASTEND WURZEL]

I think you would all agree this has spiralled completely out of control , 7 years ago 242 fans returned to the Eastend I enjoyed every moment of it and thank those envolved in the campaign to re open ( they know who they are) from the bottom of my heart . Football changed for me ,fun . Enjoyment, and full on support . We had a proper laugh home and away. Signing old songs that echoed from my child hood and creating new ones. Real football was alive and it felt great. We introduced the 'ultras' and the flag was born and for what it's worth I enjoyed every moment. Who will forget that first season back in 2nd tier. There was No underlying dark and twisted views in the creation of that flag I can assure you.

Alas the world has changed for the worse everybody is cautious of what they say and we tread on eggshells constantly. we are now a Politicly correct society where certain words have double standards and unfortunately people will always pick the worse. When a crowd of 13000 people get together there will allways be some who leave the ground offended, from lyrics to a song , Colourfull language from a fellow supporter to a word on a flag unfortunately that's life .The learning curve here is to Handel these situations more delicately as I'm sure there will be many more to deal with as more and more things become unacceptable. right or wrong it's time to draw a line under this now before it consumes all. I feel some empathy for Dave as you should never shoot the messenger.

[NickJ]

Very magnanimous but Dave confirmed he agreed with the statement which was issued through him regarding your flag.

I just hope though the "powers" read your comments and think about them carefully, because it is clear you and the others are not in the slightest what you were alleged to be.

[Slacker]

Well thanks for the gratuitous insults.

I did not suggest that the Ultra movement is entirely right wing fascism - I simply said I associate it with right wing extremists abroad. I do not have a great knowledge of English Ultra movements and I accept they may well simply be very enthusiastic fans with no links to fascism.

However, I am aware of the unpleasant side of Italian Ultra culture and don't want our club linked with that.

If "our" Ultras are so innocent, perhaps they should choose another name to avoid confusion with the animals at Lazio, Napoli etc? There are clearly Italian Ultras who have sympathies with Mussolini and Hitler, so the swastika reference is not facetious or far fetched, and an outsider who knows more about world politics than football politics would quite likely feel the same unease I do.

Leveller,you say",if our ultras are so innocent ",but what are they guilty of?Does anyone at all have any evidence of their wrongdoing? Ultras is a word,not a crime.There seems to be a lot of anger directed at a group of people who haven't been involved in any of the activities they are being associated with.Can anyone who is against them come forward with any examples of this kind of behavior?

[RedM]

Solution: Some people I know brought a hot air balloon 2nd hand, there was some difficulty over the licensing of the artwork as there often is. The balloon had Kent Garden Centres written on it in huge letters which couldn't be used if sold. Anyway with a bit of work the lettering was changed without too many expensive panels and lots of work, it then flew as 'Skint Garden Denters' which was great as the balloonists were all a bit bonkers anyway.

So can the Ultras flag be changed if this is the only option, make it Oltras. That word as far as I know has no 'meaning' and therefore cannot be objected to. It would also be unique to us.

[Flaxbourton Red]

The club's stance on this affair is beyond parody. It is a massive own goal. Nobody in TV land thought that we have a sinister right wing hooligan group hiding in the dolman. They just saw some nice scarves, decent goal line clearances, great atmosphere and a nice flag with a robin on it. I bet quite a few on the first half wished they were there. They did not think oh my God look at that flag it has the word ULTRAS on it- run for the hills!

I know East end wurzel and I also know that flag wasn't cheap and the flag represents nothing else other than the east end and getting behind the boys and chearing city on.

The club are wrong on this and should apologise.

[Robin Ashton]

 

I do not have a great knowledge of English Ultra movements and I accept they may well simply be very enthusiastic fans with no links to fascism.

However, I am aware of the unpleasant side of Italian Ultra culture and don't want our club linked with that.

So, basically, you want something banned because of ignorance. 

[Sixtyseconds]

I think you would all agree this has spiralled completely out of control , 7 years ago 242 fans returned to the Eastend I enjoyed every moment of it and thank those envolved in the campaign to re open ( they know who they are) from the bottom of my heart . Football changed for me ,fun . Enjoyment, and full on support . We had a proper laugh home and away. Signing old songs that echoed from my child hood and creating new ones. Real football was alive and it felt great. We introduced the 'ultras' and the flag was born and for what it's worth I enjoyed every moment. Who will forget that first season back in 2nd tier. There was No underlying dark and twisted views in the creation of that flag I can assure you.

And there M'lud is the defence.

A Bristol City fan being apologetic for supporting his team.

Welcome to the brave new world of #BS2015

[Moloch]

Is it just me that that thinks this is really not a big deal?

 

Clearly, the club have had a change of heart about the flag. I didn't think that East End Ultras flag had any connection with any political movement at all, and that the club have been poor in the way they have dealt with this. Perhaps they could have spoken with the flag's owner before the match and sorted something out (new flag?) They could have explained that the don't want any one to think we have links to continental Ultras, some of whom are violent and extremist. I think leaving it to the last minute has caused some of the problem.

 

On the other hand, some people on here are having a great deal of fun reacting as if it is indicative of the decline of western civilisation as we know it.

 

Personal opinion: football is changing and not everyone likes it.

[cider head]

I guess BCFC/BS could have contacted the people they have had past dialog with regarding flags for a chat on their thoughts of any change in policy? even through the Supporters club and trust, and shared ideas on what is allowed and what is now not? as fans still do not know as it is all up in the air.

 

A lot of this could have been avoided, maybe just a flag to some but to others it is a part of their match day.

 

It all feels like a bull in a china shop.

[Leveller]

Leveller,you say",if our ultras are so innocent ",but what are they guilty of?Does anyone at all have any evidence of their wrongdoing? Ultras is a word,not a crime.There seems to be a lot of anger directed at a group of people who haven't been involved in any of the activities they are being associated with.Can anyone who is against them come forward with any examples of this kind of behavior?[/quot

No anger from me - simply a wish to avoid association with an unpleasant movement abroad, an association that may or may not be intended by similarly named groups over here.

This I think is the basis of the club's reaction. Whether it's an overreaction is a matter of opinion.

[Red Ferret]

 

First question: What are your thoughts on fans singing at matches?

Singing at matches is often associated with violent behaviour too. Do you think the club should consider banning all singing at Ashton Gate due to its connections to the type of violence you get abroad?

 

Second question: Would you rather the atmosphere and spirit of the fans at Ashton Gate was more like Millwall or Crystal Palace? I will let you work out which set of fans are the self-proclaimed Ultras, and which are venomously anti-Ultra

[CotswoldRed]

I think you would all agree this has spiralled completely out of control , 7 years ago 242 fans returned to the Eastend I enjoyed every moment of it and thank those envolved in the campaign to re open ( they know who they are) from the bottom of my heart . Football changed for me ,fun . Enjoyment, and full on support . We had a proper laugh home and away. Signing old songs that echoed from my child hood and creating new ones. Real football was alive and it felt great. We introduced the 'ultras' and the flag was born and for what it's worth I enjoyed every moment. Who will forget that first season back in 2nd tier. There was No underlying dark and twisted views in the creation of that flag I can assure you.

Alas the world has changed for the worse everybody is cautious of what they say and we tread on eggshells constantly. we are now a Politicly correct society where certain words have double standards and unfortunately people will always pick the worse. When a crowd of 13000 people get together there will allways be some who leave the ground offended, from lyrics to a song , Colourfull language from a fellow supporter to a word on a flag unfortunately that's life .The learning curve here is to Handel these situations more delicately as I'm sure there will be many more to deal with as more and more things become unacceptable. right or wrong it's time to draw a line under this now before it consumes all. I feel some empathy for Dave as you should never shoot the messenger.

Draw a line?

If you feel an injustice has been served then that doesn't compute.

If we're not careful, drawing a line becomes apathy because you run out of energy to 'fight' for what is fair.

This may not be the suffragettes, but it's OK to reject being bulldozed by those in charge.

For the avoidance of doubt I'm no Ultra, have no interest in the flag myself but fully respect other's rights not to be trodden over.

Let's also be clear, the club's last-minute action makes it quite clear that this was never a point of principle, it was entirely politically correct for the cameras. Some backbone they have.

Maybe what is right for BCFC fans is more important than some misguided fear that a couch potato in Sevenoaks will spit his crisps over the floor and phone the BBC in disgust.

[WTMS]

Draw a line?

If you feel an injustice has been served then that doesn't compute.

If we're not careful, drawing a line becomes apathy because you run out of energy to 'fight' for what is fair.

This may not be the suffragettes, but it's OK to reject being bulldozed by those in charge.

For the avoidance of doubt I'm no Ultra, have no interest in the flag myself but fully respect other's rights not to be trodden over.

Let's also be clear, the club's last-minute action makes it quite clear that this was never a point of principle, it was entirely politically correct for the cameras. Some backbone they have.

Maybe what is right for BCFC fans is more important than some misguided fear that a couch potato in Sevenoaks will spit his crisps over the floor and phone the BBC in disgust.

Check the first post - http://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?/topic/167416-ultra-and-the-press/

A meeting was already being proposed prior to the new flag rules and dates, times, venues put forward by fans - ST. The yes is being waited for from BS.