So let me get this straight.....

[Devereux]

 

are we absolutely sure this is true? SL said in a recent interview that finances were not the issue in ANY of the deals this summer, more that we targeted the wrong players (players who didn't want to join us).

 

[exAtyeoMax]

7 minutes ago, Devereux said:

 

are we absolutely sure this is true? SL said in a recent interview that finances were not the issue in ANY of the deals this summer, more that we targeted the wrong players (players who didn't want to join us).

 

He probably meant by his reckoning we do have the finances but then someone mucked up the negotiations…

[Frenchay Red]

Perhaps they didn't want to come here because the terms they thought they were going to get were being tinkered with by the club to their disadvantage.

[deadredfred]

Thanks for sharing TM!

For me this goes a long way to explaining the goings on of this season so far. I can't comprehend the level of frustration that SC must now be feeling with the board from the summer, and perhaps now the mis-trust or doubts as we approach the January window. 

We all previously discussed the momentum that last season built and how attractive that a record breaking city side, headed for the championship with a new stadium, billionaire backer must have been to potential new signings. If TM is right, then a lot of what we wished for on OTIB was alreadyhappening in the background. For that reason alone I think opinions on SC's approach to the transfer market and some of his decisions this season can be looked at in a new light, and from my POV, with a new level of sympathy for the man!

 

Looking at the positives, it's great that Gray and Maguire were interested in joining. I'm just concerned, as we all are, that the evaporation of the momentum, current league position, morale and no doubt SC's relationship with the board may make for a tough January window. Fingers crossed.

 

 

[citywest30]

Thanks for sharing your opinion TM. Would defo explain things in the Summer and how Cotts seemed to lose his mojo. Share everyone's frustrations over this and how we may rue not spending that 7m. Also hope it means that people get off Cotts back for a bit. He's fully committed to this and deserves our backing. Let's hope the board give it to him too in this window. It's not too late to rectify the situation. 

[Guest]

19 hours ago, spudski said:

I'm not convinced by SC and Burts ability to get players here.... as a good friend of mine pointed out....of our current squad we have this....

Fielding - S'od

Ayling - SC

Flint - S'od

Baker (loan) - SC

Bennett (loan) - SC

Pack - S'od

Smith - SC

Williams - S'od

Freeman - SC

Wilbraham ( past it ) - SC

Kodjia - SC

 

O'Leary, Bryan, Burns, Reid - Academy

Little ( sat on bench ) - SC

Cox (loan never played) - SC

Moore (loan never played) - SC

 

Robinson (Waste of Money) - SC

Agard (hardly played) - SC

El-Abd (Waste of Money) - SC

Osborne (Never Picked) - SC

 

Then on top of the above .... George Saville, Ryan Fredericks, Ben Hamer (All SC) 

Matt Smith last season worked well...but he has never replaced Wade properly, not found a replacement for Wilbs and we must not forget JET (who along with Matt Smith got us up and since its been back to Wilbraham & Agard etc from Feb 2015 we've won once at home on a Sat in 10 months !!) as well as Cunningham being let go.

 

 

But look at the outlays and what has been achieved, and that each of those bought does have a genuine resale value and (wade and Wilbs aside, who we all agree provided necessary experience) time on their side.

I know what you're getting at Spud, but I think your coming at this wrong. SC assembled that squad to do what it did - win League One; even quicker than anticipated. And he hasn't wasted money because when you consider that list it ought to yield a very decent profit. 

Fair enough it might not be a build for this level (although I think otherwise in that this team can both scrape through and kick on), but I do trust what Tetbury has alluded too given his previous form. So it would seem to me to be an unfair point. SC built a cracking side to get us where we are and didn't get the summer business he believed he was getting to ready for this level. If he did get that then we could judge his transfer record at this level. 

This season's loans are poor, granted. 

 

[Nogbad the Bad]

19 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

So SC signed Ayling, Baker, Bennett, Korey Smith, Freeman, Wilbraham, Kodjia, Wade Elliot, Little, Matt Smith and Agard and you're attempting to spin that to show he can't get good players to come here??

You're making yourself look ridiculous.

 

19 hours ago, Dark Wood Covert said:

As do others who seem to make Cotterill even more untouchable than the board...

They're all at fault for the fiasco in the summer

Mmmm ...well, many thanks for setting me straight DWC. 

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

18 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

 

Mmmm ...well, many thanks for setting me straight DWC. 

So you're basing that on one piece of 'ITK' from TM? Whether TM is accurate its still up in the air... People will choose to believe what they so want. Until thats actually confirmed by SL or SC (Which it  probably never will) then its no more believable than the other 'ITK' posters.

Still the scenario is that we have won 4 in 24, conceded 3 goals a game+ in a quarter of the matches, a terrible GD and so on... that is down to the players and mangement correct? The core of the team we have is still capable of better and that has been proven by some good performances against the better sides in this league. It does need beefing up as its too threadbare. 

I stick by what I said that ALL including Cotterill were at fault for the summer, 1 permanent signing and the waste of loan signings is not acceptable

[Davefevs]

2 permie signings....you forgot Fredericks.

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

23 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

2 permie signings....you forgot Fredericks.

My apologies 2  permie signings then... Score 

Lets not really admit to that as one of them lasted 25 days...

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, Dark Wood Covert said:

My apologies 2  permie signings then... Score 

Lets not really admit to that as one of them lasted 25 days...

Agreed 

[archie andrews]

notice that the witch hunters have gone a bit quiet.......got to admire sc's dignity......maybe he's been given an open chequebook as a sweetener.....20million I reckon

[Rob k]

3 minutes ago, archie andrews said:

notice that the witch hunters have gone a bit quiet.......got to admire sc's dignity......maybe he's been given an open chequebook as a sweetener.....20million I reckon

The fans have turned and suddenly this all comes out, I'm sure Tetbury must have known this info all along so I wonder why this information has been allowed to be leaked now?

I don't actually  disbelieve it for one moment because I think Tetbury has sources very close to SC but the timing is funny as this kind of info would have needed to get permission to come out (IMO) 

[bristolcitysweden]

My thinking is that JP, KB & SC as a starting point jointly presented a budget for transfers. The budget was accepted by SL. KB & SC agreed deals exceeded that budget.  

[spudski]

So fans actually believe SL and JL sat down together and decided on the value they thought the players were worth?

And that they were the one's who stalled the deals?

Pelling goes in 'strange circumstances'....really?

SL recently coming out and saying he's backed the manager and wages weren't a problem...

So now SC is to be felt sorry for?

So who's telling the truth? If SC was ****ed over by 'SL & the board'....what are your feelings about this?

If so...and IF this was true...how do you now feel about the Clubs owner interfering with deals? If true...

I'm not saying the described didn't happen...as I've also heard like most, that deals were scuppered...but not how this is described.

I heard SC went in over budget and was told not too...allegedly he agreed deals that hadn't been approved by the board.

But put it this way...it wouldn't surprise me if deals had been interfered with, it's happened before. And like others have said before, including myself...any manager would struggle here.

This Club has been run pathetically for years considering the money invested in it....and it's no surprise every manager we have eventually struggles.

I feel for managers that come to us...even SC....it still doesn't deter from the fact I don't think he's the manager to take us forward, but that's for different reasons.

However...IMO....any manager will come unstuck here. Such a shame considering the loyal support.

 

 

[TETBURY MASSIVE]

42 minutes ago, Rob k said:

The fans have turned and suddenly this all comes out, I'm sure Tetbury must have known this info all along so I wonder why this information has been allowed to be leaked now?

I don't actually  disbelieve it for one moment because I think Tetbury has sources very close to SC but the timing is funny as this kind of info would have needed to get permission to come out (IMO) 

Hello Rob K.

I get to hear lots of things from lots people, as you can imagine some things are good and spot on and others are wide of the mark. I tend not to share things unless I'm sure they are 100% as people on here get excited over the smallest of things.

I can assure you that anything I'm told does not come from SL/JL/KB/SC. It's from very well connected people and not just from football. As previous mentioned I get a lot of info from the horse racing world apart from winners.. My connections enabled me to be in the VIP section at Burnley and that was through a sponsor. 

The was no timing or permission sought about my posting. It was just me having enough of some of the twaddle posted on here. People don't have to believe me, I was just hoping to put some things straight. The people who do tell me stuff don't happen to post on here so I'm hoping it doesn't effect anything in the future. If you do go too games PM who.you are and I will gladly meet you for a coffee. 

I hope this clears things up.

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

21 minutes ago, spudski said:

So fans actually believe SL and JL sat down together and decided on the value they thought the players were worth?

And that they were the one's who stalled the deals?

Pelling goes in 'strange circumstances'....really?

SL recently coming out and saying he's backed the manager and wages weren't a problem...

So now SC is to be felt sorry for?

So who's telling the truth? If SC was ****ed over by 'SL & the board'....what are your feelings about this?

If so...and IF this was true...how do you now feel about the Clubs owner interfering with deals? If true...

I'm not saying the described didn't happen...as I've also heard like most, that deals were scuppered...but not how this is described.

I heard SC went in over budget and was told not too...allegedly he agreed deals that hadn't been approved by the board.

But put it this way...it wouldn't surprise me if deals had been interfered with, it's happened before. And like others have said before, including myself...any manager would struggle here.

This Club has been run pathetically for years considering the money invested in it....and it's no surprise every manager we have eventually struggles.

I feel for managers that come to us...even SC....it still doesn't deter from the fact I don't think he's the manager to take us forward, but that's for different reasons.

However...IMO....any manager will come unstuck here. Such a shame considering the loyal support.

 

 

Thats the thing I am not getting with posters on here... Lansdown had said this publicly so while I'm not a fan of the board by any means I am more likely to believe him than second hand info posted on a fans forum. The other point is this... Are the staunch SC supporters so blinded that this is purely all down to the board while SC is completely exempt from all this. If so, why? 

For the record, I have been relatively middle of the road about Cotterill... he won me over last season but now I just feel now, his time is up.

[spudski]

2 minutes ago, Dark Wood Covert said:

Thats the thing I am not getting with posters on here... Lansdown had said this publicly so while I'm not a fan of the board by any means I am more likely to believe him than second hand info posted on a fans forum. The other point is are the staunch SC supporters so blinded that they hint that this is purely all down to the board while SC is completely exempt from all this. If so, why? I

For the record, I have been relatively middle of the road about Cotterill... he won me over last season but now I just feel now, his time is up.

Mate....don't believe half the things that come out publicly.

They all have an agenda behind them....either to appease the gullable fan, or make the person, club, look better in their eyes...it's all spin and smoke and mirrors.

What's said in public to the media...or at other events can often be proven wrong. But unfortunately not publicly...

I'd rather listen to those that work in the Pro game and who deal with managers, coach's and players everyday...than what is said in the media.

Don't get me wrong....Tetbury has made some very valid points...even if it was just to make SC look better...

What pisses me off...is there are some very talented players and coach's at BCFC, who work their socks off.... and I often feel they are let down.

All alleged and IMO of course....many will disagree.

[Portland Bill]

7 hours ago, TETBURY MASSIVE said:

 

As its New Years Eve... I will share with you 'My Opinion' on the subject..... people you don't have to believe me and neither will I name my sources, so save yourselves posting 100 times asking for them.

Nogbad is correct in what he says above!

This happened twice on big deals which led to them big scuppered and then being turned down. The two main targets of the Summer!!

Both deals were agreed in principal at the end of May.

The first deal scuppered was Harry Maguire, KB & SC had negotiated the deal to sign HM from Hull, a fee of £2.5 Million was agreed, personal terms agreed.

The second deal scuppered was Andre Gray, again KB & SC had negotiated a deal to sign AG from Brentford for £4.5 Million and £14k a week.

The deals were presented to JP who discusses them with SL

SL has the final say on all signings.

Beginning of June SC & KB go on holiday for 3 weeks and 2 weeks respectively. During this time JP & SL decide to negotiate the HM deal as they think they can get a better deal. They offer £1.25 million to Hull. Hull's response is that BCFC are trying the micky.... the deal had been agreed and now the club are trying to get him on the cheap. Hull's response is, you can buy HM but the price was then £4 Million and there was no negotiation. Deal falls through.

Next up is the Andre Gray deal, as mentioned above the deal was all agreed in principal by the end of May, this deal was scuppered due to SL/JP deciding to 'wait' on the deal, they believed that he was valued at £3 Million and were prepared to play cat and mouse with Brentford in order to get him cheaper. June passes and we are still waiting it out. In the mean time Burnley come sniffing but with no firm offers. We then try again at the end of July but Brentford are happy to hold out and tell BCFC that the price is now £8 Million. Andre Gray is now reluctant to move to us as we held out on the deal and were not offering any more than £14k a week. 

Burnley then offer £6 Million fee, which is agreed. They agree personal terms of £26k a week and £3k a week in bonuses. Deal dead for BCFC.

This then sends the board into panic..... Enter the Dwight Gayle saga.

The deal was £9 Million and was made up of two parts. the first part was would see CPFC buyout the sell on clause of YB, they value him at between £15-£20 Million. Our sell on clause is 20 %, Both clubs negotiated that the sell on clause was worth £3.5 Million, so BCFC would pay £5.5 Million adding in the sell on clause would take the deal to £9 Million. The deal fell down through our wage structure. DG is on £21k a week at CPFC, BCFC offered £14k a week, DG said he would sign for £19k a week as he would receive a % of the transfer fee. SL/JP would not break the wage structure which is capped at £15k a week for any one player. Deal Dead.

That leaves us at square one with none of our main targets secured, in a nut shell the above is what led to our disastrous transfer window in the Summer!!

 

 

Thanks for this very informative post TM, it's very, very interesting to read "your opinion"!  Hopefully everyone can now see what SC has had to go through, and we as a fan base can ALL get behind the manager and show him our full support.

Lets start at Reading, 3k of us showing some real passion for the team and manager, plus our tributes to Divvy on his day

[exAtyeoMax]

23 minutes ago, spudski said:

So fans actually believe SL and JL sat down together and decided on the value they thought the players were worth?

And that they were the one's who stalled the deals?

Pelling goes in 'strange circumstances'....really?

SL recently coming out and saying he's backed the manager and wages weren't a problem...

So now SC is to be felt sorry for?

So who's telling the truth? If SC was ****ed over by 'SL & the board'....what are your feelings about this?

If so...and IF this was true...how do you now feel about the Clubs owner interfering with deals? If true...

I'm not saying the described didn't happen...as I've also heard like most, that deals were scuppered...but not how this is described.

I heard SC went in over budget and was told not too...allegedly he agreed deals that hadn't been approved by the board.

But put it this way...it wouldn't surprise me if deals had been interfered with, it's happened before. And like others have said before, including myself...any manager would struggle here.

This Club has been run pathetically for years considering the money invested in it....and it's no surprise every manager we have eventually struggles.

I feel for managers that come to us...even SC....it still doesn't deter from the fact I don't think he's the manager to take us forward, but that's for different reasons.

However...IMO....any manager will come unstuck here. Such a shame considering the loyal support.

 

 

I believe JP had word with SL about the deals, not that SL had any direct input. JP was Chief Ex after all.

[exAtyeoMax]

11 minutes ago, Dark Wood Covert said:

Thats the thing I am not getting with posters on here... Lansdown had said this publicly so while I'm not a fan of the board by any means I am more likely to believe him than second hand info posted on a fans forum. The other point is this... Are the staunch SC supporters so blinded that this is purely all down to the board while SC is completely exempt from all this. If so, why? 

For the record, I have been relatively middle of the road about Cotterill... he won me over last season but now I just feel now, his time is up.

No one is disputing what SL has said about wages etc, just that the negotiations were mucked around with.

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

4 minutes ago, spudski said:

Mate....don't believe half the things that come out publicly.

They all have an agenda behind them....either to appease the gullable fan, or make the person, club, look better in their eyes...it's all spin and smoke and mirrors.

What's said in public to the media...or at other events can often be proven wrong. But unfortunately not publicly...

I'd rather listen to those that work in the Pro game and who deal with managers, coach's and players everyday...than what is said in the media.

Don't get me wrong....Tetbury has made some very valid points...even if it was just to make SC look better...

What pisses me off...is there are some very talented players and coach's at BCFC, who work their socks off.... and I often feel they are let down.

All alleged and IMO of course....many will disagree.

I get the whole smoke and mirrors game, I too in the past have been privvy to some info (we're talking 10 years ago mind).

Its just a shame that this whole farcical situation is effecting the clubs progress and killed the momentum gathered from the back end of the season before and last season.. noone, it seems to want to take culpability for this. I think SC is a very passionate and proud man but if the board scuppered these deals , then why didn't he walk away? Wouldn't of blamed him if he did

[Guest]

@spudski I do believe that TM could well be right, whilst also appreciating it is one side of a story of course. It's not gospel, but it doesn't sound outlandish nor would it surprise me, and given TM's form I'm inclined to trust it - but of course I wouldn't dig at anyone on the basis of it. 

If assuming it is as described and in response to your question 'how do you feel?', not sure is the honest answer. With hindsight it looks bloody daft, but then I would also expect a chief exec to maybe push back on what is presented and try to renegotiate if they thought they could do better. He couldn't, he got it wrong and got the boot. To be honest that part sounds quite uncontroversial to me  

My only concern would be if JP was incompetent why again was the club recruiting the wrong person and could they fill that post correctly in future. I would expect SL to be led by the Chief Exec and so would excuse that but having the wrong person as Chief Exec, that's a different matter. 

 

[exAtyeoMax]

14 minutes ago, 29AR said:

@spudski I do believe that TM could well be right, whilst also appreciating it is one side of a story of course. It's not gospel, but it doesn't sound outlandish nor would it surprise me, and given TM's form I'm inclined to trust it - but of course I wouldn't dig at anyone on the basis of it. 

If assuming it is as described and in response to your question 'how do you feel?', not sure is the honest answer. With hindsight it looks bloody daft, but then I would also expect a chief exec to maybe push back on what is presented and try to renegotiate if they thought they could do better. He couldn't, he got it wrong and got the boot. To be honest that part sounds quite uncontroversial to me  

My only concern would be if JP was incompetent why again was the club recruiting the wrong person and could they fill that post correctly in future. I would expect SL to be led by the Chief Exec and so would excuse that but having the wrong person as Chief Exec, that's a different matter. 

 

Perhaps it worked when he was at Forest. If he is used to wheeling and dealing, that's what you do, take a gamble. This time it didn't work. Hopefully SL and the others can repair the damage.

[exAtyeoMax]

1 minute ago, cynic said:

TBF, Pelling had about 15 years experience with Forest and Sheff. Weds as Finance Director and also a similar amount of time with KPMG before that so he did his apprenticeship. I don't know if he was a bean counter or an all rounder, but I wouldn't say he wasn't qualified for the role on paper.

 

Well you just have to look at the financial state of this country…I bet they've all got their 'exams'

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Perhaps it worked when he was at Forest. If he is used to wheeling and dealing, that's what you do, take a gamble. This time it didn't work. Hopefully SL and the others can repair the damage.

Agree, it sounds dreadful with hindsight but I'm not sure it was such obscene actions, if indeed they took place. 

Getting burned twice though could well be enough for a Foxtrot Oscar, but painting the whole back room in a bad light - I'm not so sure. 

If it played out as suggested then I think it says more about misrepresentation of authority, or perhaps lack of clarity by our DoF on how far his authority extends. 

Perhaps KB presented himself (or (mis)understood) as able to sign off on deals rather than simply thrashing out a proposal to put to the board for review. 

Absolute conjecture of course, but it doesn't always have to point to SL as being foolish. 

[YorkshireSection]

On 30 December 2015 at 17:55, Nogbad the Bad said:

So SC signed Ayling, Baker, Bennett, Korey Smith, Freeman, Wilbraham, Kodjia, Wade Elliot, Little, Matt Smith and Agard and you're attempting to spin that to show he can't get good players to come here??

You're making yourself look ridiculous.

Ayling- good player, be even better if he'd play where Pack does.

Baker- Loan

Bennet- Loan

K Smith- about as good as any club could get at this level, great signing.

Freeman- one great season, looks out of depth now though in the championship.

Wilbraham- Needs replacing and fast

Kodjia- RAW too early to judge as he has no strike partner, despite the unfit loanee Cox and the Welsh international whose pace alone would be an outlet for Kodjia. FFS SC change it up!

Wade Elliot- Retired

Little- is he really championship quality, had some stinkers last season defensively.

Matt Smith- Loan, formed a great partnership with the lazy basted whose goals kept us up and contribution last season maintenance our momentum. It's a shame they're both not still playing for us, it could have very easily of happened.

Agard- league one player, nowhere near championship standard.

YEP ALL COMPLETELY SUCCESFUL AT CHAMPIOSHIP LEVEL, which is where we are for a few months more at least.

[Guest]

Let's not forget that Mark Little was signed on a free! Whether you think championship quality or not that was a cracking bit of business at the time and he has since been replaced (with a loan which would appear to be turning permanent). If we had a replacement I've no doubt he's a player we could sell for a fee. 

Elliot I think had another year in him and I think a few times we would've fared much better if we could have dropped him in at the 70 min mark. 

Kodjia - raw indeed, but looks a rather exciting prospect given he landed in the country 6 months ago no? 

Wilbraham - agree, but I think he can still play a lesser, but valuable part. 

Agard - we weren't the only ones. Rotherham and Leeds (who recognise a player to be fair) were sniffing. I still think he's played within himself a bit and is capable of more. 

Freeman - disjointed start and he has disappointed. But I'm by no means ready to write him off and a bit like Adomah he is often double marked, which hinders him but in itself it also creates space for others. But I'd like to see Reid get a month personally. 

[spudski]

2 hours ago, 29AR said:

@spudski I do believe that TM could well be right, whilst also appreciating it is one side of a story of course. It's not gospel, but it doesn't sound outlandish nor would it surprise me, and given TM's form I'm inclined to trust it - but of course I wouldn't dig at anyone on the basis of it. 

If assuming it is as described and in response to your question 'how do you feel?', not sure is the honest answer. With hindsight it looks bloody daft, but then I would also expect a chief exec to maybe push back on what is presented and try to renegotiate if they thought they could do better. He couldn't, he got it wrong and got the boot. To be honest that part sounds quite uncontroversial to me  

My only concern would be if JP was incompetent why again was the club recruiting the wrong person and could they fill that post correctly in future. I would expect SL to be led by the Chief Exec and so would excuse that but having the wrong person as Chief Exec, that's a different matter. 

 

 

2 hours ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Perhaps it worked when he was at Forest. If he is used to wheeling and dealing, that's what you do, take a gamble. This time it didn't work. Hopefully SL and the others can repair the damage.

He was probably the most qualified person to run the finances of a football Club....he knows the rules and regulations inside out...after all he was one of the people who wrote the FFP rules.

Someone threw their dummy out more likely ;-)

[AshtonGreat]

On 28/12/2015 at 21:02, Thatwasclose said:

People want SC to stay because of the past and are ignoring what has happened (or not happened) this season?

He is clearly not the man to get the best out of this group of players and that's what it should all be based on. Forget transfers that coulda shoulda woulda happened, the current squad should not be third from the bottom - simply he doesn't have a clue at this level.

Hey, let's keep him on and get relegated so that he can lead us out of L1 again, small time mentality at its best. The same people crying for better players are rejecting the notion that a better manager would improve the team.

Except for a few games where we have been outplayed, most of the games this season we should have done better had SC been on it tactically.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This post doesn't really make any sense. So we've only been outplayed in a few games, therefore in most games we've held our own (and in the ones I've seen, we certainly have). Sounds like he's doing alright to me. 

By the way, why should this squad not be third from bottom? Most of the players were picked from lower league clubs. Yes we won League One at a canter, but we've done roughly as well as the other two promoted teams, and are only a few points off a respectable position.