BCFC Jimmer Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 13 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said: I'd suggest even the most cursory research into Hillsborough and how the cover-up happened could answer that question. The Hillsborough cover-up was not an incident in isolation but the culmination of ten years of politicising the police force and using them as a tool for government control. The police cover-up at Hillsborough contains several parallels with the Battle of Orgreave 5 years earlier where the same police force fabricated evidence to prosecute 95 people of rioting. All were subsequently acquitted and the police were found to have lied repeatedly and changed witness statements. Ultimately had the police not been used as a weapon to smear striking miners, they would not have had the same tools at the disposal to smear football fans. And,had the government of the day been less concerned about the skeletons of Orgreave crawling out of the closet, they'd have been more open to examining Hillsborough must sooner and not been actively complicit in smearing the fans involved. Nobody should try and politicise this and nor should anyone need to. It already is a political matter. Whichever political party you vote for, the Hillsborough cover-up is one of the darkest and most shameful incidents in the history of the Conservative Party and the repeated refusals to re-investigate reflect badly on Labour. Thatcher gave the police pay rises because she knew she needed them on her side. It was the only way she would be able to push through her pathetic polices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin phantom Posted April 27, 2016 Admin Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Peacock Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 1 hour ago, Collis1 said: Thatcher gave the police pay rises because she knew she needed them on her side. It was the only way she would be able to push through her pathetic polices. Low taxation and rolling back state control are pathetic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Team In Keynsham Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 1 hour ago, spikeislandred said: Never forget the total silence and grief at Ashton Gate when we stood to mark it at the next home game, we all knew it could have been us and between us in the East End and the pitch was, of course, a bloody great iron fence. A couple of weeks later I travelled down to London, with friends from university, to go to Chelsea v Leeds. There was a minute's silence before kick off for the victims. Impeccably observed in the away end. On the Shed, where I was stood, some (not many to be fair) ever-classy Chelsea fans chanted "dirty Northen bastards." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 18 minutes ago, Drew Peacock said: Low taxation and rolling back state control are pathetic? Can't remember low taxation for the 95% of us who did an ordinary job of work in those days. And in terms of rolling back state control - it actually became more authoritarian in many ways, she simply gave away state assets, built up over many years by taxpayers' investment, for considerably less than their market price. Crazy economics driven entirely by ideology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigAl&Toby Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 2 hours ago, LondonBristolian said: I'd suggest even the most cursory research into Hillsborough and how the cover-up happened could answer that question. The Hillsborough cover-up was not an incident in isolation but the culmination of ten years of politicising the police force and using them as a tool for government control. The police cover-up at Hillsborough contains several parallels with the Battle of Orgreave 5 years earlier where the same police force fabricated evidence to prosecute 95 people of rioting. All were subsequently acquitted and the police were found to have lied repeatedly and changed witness statements. Ultimately had the police not been used as a weapon to smear striking miners, they would not have had the same tools at the disposal to smear football fans. And,had the government of the day been less concerned about the skeletons of Orgreave crawling out of the closet, they'd have been more open to examining Hillsborough must sooner and not been actively complicit in smearing the fans involved. Nobody should try and politicise this and nor should anyone need to. It already is a political matter. Whichever political party you vote for, the Hillsborough cover-up is one of the darkest and most shameful incidents in the history of the Conservative Party and the repeated refusals to re-investigate reflect badly on Labour. I'm well aware of all of that. My point - seemingly missed by you and others - is why the result of the inquiry needs or needed to be muddied in such a way. I preferred to simply remember those that died and their families. Wider but nevertheless fundamental points are surely for another day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chivs Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 12 hours ago, Portland Bill said: I couldn't believe it when I saw the sxn's front page on the news a while ago, even one of their journalists ( I know!) who was reviewing tomorrow's papers was clearly embarrassed by it. I'm Just watching Newsnight and its reported that investigations have been now going on for up to two years into several organisations involved in Hillsborough, obviously South Yorkshire police, and also ( our favourites) West Midlands police who covered SY police's arse when they were the "independent" force looking into SY handling of Hillsborough. A lot of people had best be watching their backs, justice is coming to get you. I'm not sure that's the case. What will happen is this: the CPS will take months and months, possibly a whole year ("long time ago", "getting all the facts", "difficult situation") and then decide that there is insufficient contemporaneous evidence to achieve a realistic prosecution against anyone from police forces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welcome To The Jungle Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 For a bit of balance regarding the police it should be remembered that many PCs on the ground acted with great bravery and with great professionalism in a situation orchestrated by their seniors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Peacock Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 15 minutes ago, Chivs said: I'm not sure that's the case. What will happen is this: the CPS will take months and months, possibly a whole year ("long time ago", "getting all the facts", "difficult situation") and then decide that there is insufficient contemporaneous evidence to achieve a realistic prosecution against anyone from police forces. That would be disappointing given the zeal with which radio and TV personalities have been pursued for sexual offences with seemingly far less evidence, I would have thought the case against Duckenfield in particular was open and shut. However, to an extent I share your cynicism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 45 minutes ago, Chivs said: I'm not sure that's the case. What will happen is this: the CPS will take months and months, possibly a whole year ("long time ago", "getting all the facts", "difficult situation") and then decide that there is insufficient contemporaneous evidence to achieve a realistic prosecution against anyone from police forces. I think the CPS will charge some people.. otherwise the hillsborugh family groups will ramp up the pressure again. Trouble is as its taken 27 years a lot of people involved are either dead or rapidly becoming too ill to stand trial.. funny that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin phantom Posted April 27, 2016 Admin Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 I appreciate this is not in the best taste, but I have a horrible feeling Duckenfield will take his own life following all the public outrage that is going his way. That must be some serious pressure and stress going his way - can people really cope with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBristolian Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 1 hour ago, BigAlToby&Liam said: I'm well aware of all of that. My point - seemingly missed by you and others - is why the result of the inquiry needs or needed to be muddied in such a way. I preferred to simply remember those that died and their families. Wider but nevertheless fundamental points are surely for another day. I honestly don't see how can separate the results of the family and the vindication of the families from the condemnation of those who lied and obstructed the truth. I'd also point out the day to remember those that died and their families was last week at Anfield when they had the memorials. Yesterday was about truth and justice and it's brilliant that the families finally got that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril harry Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 I will tell all of you now the old bill treated us like cattle in those days an herded us into pens at every away ground an we were treated like animals but not expected to act like one! I just hope they all swing for this , bit strong I know but it WAS like that in those days!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northsomersetred Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 South Yorkshire chief constable is suspended Good riddance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charliesboots Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 And so it begins.... South Yorkshire Police chief suspended over Hillsboroughhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36154201 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charliesboots Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 A powerful listen tonight from 8pm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chairman Mao Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 4 hours ago, phantom said: I appreciate this is not in the best taste, but I have a horrible feeling Duckenfield will take his own life following all the public outrage that is going his way. That must be some serious pressure and stress going his way - can people really cope with it? Serious pressure and stress, sounds like what the Liverpool supporters who were crushed to death were feeling... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin101 Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 Video from St. George's hall fairly breathtaking. What an emotional song You'll never walk alone is. Don't get me wrong, I love drink up thy cider but...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northsomersetred Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 7 hours ago, phantom said: I appreciate this is not in the best taste, but I have a horrible feeling Duckenfield will take his own life following all the public outrage that is going his way. That must be some serious pressure and stress going his way - can people really cope with it? I had that thought as well, I just hope they nail Norman Bettison he comes across as such an arrogant banker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 7 hours ago, phantom said: I appreciate this is not in the best taste, but I have a horrible feeling Duckenfield will take his own life following all the public outrage that is going his way. That must be some serious pressure and stress going his way - can people really cope with it? Either that or he'll be too ill for trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS4 on Tour... Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 On 26 April 2016 at 15:55, GrahamC said: If you have to ask a question like that there really isn't much hope... Murdoch, his cronies like Mackenzie and the successive governments (including Blair who blocked it as a favour to him) that fawned over that Aussie scumbag used the police for their means and kept them sweet with large pay rises, so it really wouldn't look good to admit where the failings really lied, would it? Genuine questions GC, you obviously have inside knowledge...so how do you know Blair 'blocked it as a favour to him' and what are the details of the 'large pay rises' which 'kept the police sweet for their means' ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 13 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said: Genuine questions GC, you obviously have inside knowledge...so how do you know Blair 'blocked it as a favour to him' and what are the details of the 'large pay rises' which 'kept the police sweet for their means' ?? The first part was alleged by none other than former Labour minister Andy Burnham this year, who is one of very few politicians who emerges from this saga with any credit at all. The second part is in the public domain, Google "police pay rises under Thatcher" one of her first priorities on coming to power in 1979 was to give them a 45% pay rise, now why would she do that, I wonder... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyolly Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 I wish Thatcher was around now to face this. It is clear she was the driver behind a lot of the attitudes towards football fans that were around in the 80s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Team In Keynsham Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 6 minutes ago, allyolly said: I wish Thatcher was around now to face this. It is clear she was the driver behind a lot of the attitudes towards football fans that were around in the 80s. I know what you are getting at, but in my view the world is a better place with her not in it, and indeed would have been a better place had she not been around on 15 April 1989 or earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howey_ducky Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 I think the political point scoring and speaking ill of the dead on this thread are a bit pathetic. I think we should all be thankful that the families of the 96 finally got a result that they were hoping for and one that the other fans in the terrace on that day can perhaps finally cleanse them of some guilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumRed Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 I lived in Liverpool in the early 90's and the wounds were still very raw. I'm not going to make a political comment as this isn't the time or place. The families who have fought this have my heartfelt sympathy and respect. Justice at last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welcome To The Jungle Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 Watching them sing YNWA today, the crowd, mostly red but a very visible blue presence says it all. This was not about football, but a tragedy that struck a city. Beautiful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyolly Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 8 minutes ago, howey_ducky said: I think the political point scoring and speaking ill of the dead on this thread are a bit pathetic. I think we should all be thankful that the families of the 96 finally got a result that they were hoping for and one that the other fans in the terrace on that day can perhaps finally cleanse them of some guilt. Sorry I don't agree this is political point scoring. What was said by politicians at the time, led by Thatcher, directly influenced the whole way the investigations proceeded. This is partly why it has taken so long to achieve the verdict announced yesterday. This should be considered a national disgrace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 I was listening to the speeches on the radio this evening whilst out driving. I had to pull over, park up, and just listen to every word. Amazing how they can do these things. Really moving. I also watched the 30/30 ESPN documentary last night. I'd recommend watching it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howey_ducky Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 1 minute ago, allyolly said: Sorry I don't agree this is political point scoring. What was said by politicians at the time, led by Thatcher, directly influenced the whole way the investigations proceeded. This is partly why it has taken so long to achieve the verdict announced yesterday. This should be considered a national disgrace. The politicians voiced what they were being told from those in charge on the day this catastrophe happened. There were no members of parliament there on the day, certainly not in positions of power. It's a disgrace but not a national one. It's a time to reflect and be thankful that we're much better protected now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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