96 unlawfully killed / Supporters NOT Criminals (MERGED)

[One Team In Keynsham]

4 minutes ago, Doozerchris said:

One of the most harrowing things I have ever read.

The 11 minute embedded video is worth a watch too.

[BigAl&Toby]

I remember the day as if it was yesterday.

My thoughts are simply with those who died and their families. All have acted with enormous dignity during the intervening years. They deserve our respect.

Quite way anyone would start talking about Thatcher, her press secretary at the time or to try and politicise this is beyond me.

Today is simply a day to remember those who lost their lives on that warm, sunny afternoon.

RIP.

[northsomersetred]

 

[Drew Peacock]

1 hour ago, bs3 said:

. How was South Yorkshire Police able to get away with this , well 4 years early Mrs Thatchers Government used the South Yorkshire Police to literally smash the striking miners, so she owed the SYP a favour and didn't she pay it back. 

 

It was hardly just SYP.  Forces from all over the UK were involved, in fact I believe there were concerns that local forces would be too sympathetic with their local communities.  Avon & Somerset had a large contingent involved hence the infamous ASPOM badges.

[exAtyeoMax]

9 hours ago, LegionOfBrad said:

There will be some omissions from those the CPS go after. The FA should never have held another Semi there after the near tragedy in 81. It's really not like they shouldn't have seen this coming. 

We should have had a Taylor report long before people lost their lives!

Whose idea was it to put people in cages? The only difference between 1981 and 1989

[northsomersetred]

2 minutes ago, Drew Peacock said:

It was hardly just SYP.  Forces from all over the UK were involved, in fact I believe there were concerns that local forces would be too sympathetic with their local communities.  Avon & Somerset had a large contingent involved hence the infamous ASPOM badges.

SYP were the main protagonists, they've just got away with what happened at the Orgreave coking plant. Another whitewash.

[Drew Peacock]

Just now, northsomersetred said:

SYP were the main protagonists, they've just got away with what happened at the Orgreave coking plant. Another whitewash.

I haven't seen anything recent on Orgreave, but didn't SYP pay out quite a lot of compensation some time ago?

[northsomersetred]

2 minutes ago, Drew Peacock said:

I haven't seen anything recent on Orgreave, but didn't SYP pay out quite a lot of compensation some time ago?

SYP

[Drew Peacock]

2 minutes ago, northsomersetred said:

SYP

Ok.  Hadn't followed it recently, but must relate to several forces I would have thought.

[Jack Dawe]

2 hours ago, Tomarse said:

This is an incredible powerful article from David Conn at the Guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-disaster-deadly-mistakes-and-lies-that-lasted-decades

Yes it is, almost unreadable in parts. Terrible.

One thing, though, sits awkwardly with my own experience of going to football in the 80s:

"....survivors gave evidence of....no atmosphere of drunkeness or misbehaviour...."

That's precisely what I do remember from any big match, involving City, in the 80s. With much smaller crowds. And many other matches involving big clubs. If we had a big game, and took 1000 somewhere (Northampton, for example), there would be an "atmosphere of drunkeness and misbehaviour." Almost without fail. Times that following by 2 (Torquay), 3 (Notts Co), 4 (Reading) and so on (without getting to matches at Swindon, Plymouth, Rovers etc), and you got drunkeness and misbehaviour times 2 or 3 or 4. When we took 9k to Forest for our big cup semi, I remember drunkeness and misbehaviour before we got anywhere near Nottingham. Most big City games would see a number of fans detained or arrested for being "drunk and disorderly" and reports of this in Monday's E. Post. Liverpool had 24000 there that day and if you had asked me in 1989 if I thought there might be "drunkeness or misbehaviour" that day I would have said, of course. Pope/Catholic etc. But the evidence states that was not the case that day, and I wasn't there either, so we must accept this.

All I say is, that is not my experience of football in the 1980s. In my experience, "drunkeness and misbehaviour" was commonplace, and the bigger the game, the more of there was of it. In fact "drunkeness" and young lads absolutely "reeking" of alcohol, paralytic, is one of my earliest memories of Ashton Gate and football at that time.

And on big games, people (young males) would arrive late and start pushing and shoving, with some jumping the queue. That was not an unusual occurrence, as I remember it. 

So, because of my experiences, I find it surprising that there was no evidence, rather than little evidence. 

I have wrongly assumed that the same things I often witnessed at Div 3 matches had probably occurred that day at Hillsborough, based on my own experiences rather than the lurid press coverage at the time.

 

None of this is to deny the culpability of South Yorks police (my own experience of them made a lot of what we know now about them in all this quite easy to believe), and other people and organisations responsible for public order and safety that day. Shocking and despicable behaviour from them. What a shameful episode in this country's history. 

 

 

[Charliesboots]

3 hours ago, Tomarse said:

This is an incredible powerful article from David Conn at the Guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-disaster-deadly-mistakes-and-lies-that-lasted-decades

Disturbing. 

 

[cidered abroad]

1 hour ago, Drew Peacock said:

It was hardly just SYP.  Forces from all over the UK were involved, in fact I believe there were concerns that local forces would be too sympathetic with their local communities.  Avon & Somerset had a large contingent involved hence the infamous ASPOM badges.

A few years ago, I met, socially via friends, a former Deputy Chief Constable of Avon & Somerset Constabulary who openly and brazenly boasted about the thuggery used by him and other Avon & Somerset officers at Orgreave and other confrontations in South Yorkshire in the 1980's.

I tried to remind him that as a police officer, he was an employee of the British public but that did not register with him. He was a thug in uniform and encouraged by the government of the time.

[Stephen Lewis]

5 hours ago, EnderMB said:

I've said this in a few other places, but deep down I think that while justice may finally be done, the damage will last for generations in Liverpool. Many people in the community will never trust the media, the police, or their politicians ever again, and neither will their kids, or their kids kids.

I'd love to see the wider football community come together, and tell The Sun to **** off. Orchestrate the fans to petition their own club to ban all Sun journalists from their grounds and from any press conferences, until The Sun are completely cut off from the world of football.

You don't have to just be in Liverpool for that to be the case.

[BS5_RED]

7 hours ago, northsomersetred said:

 

You'll need Tor or something similar to which it here

 

I watched it when it was shown down here.

My emotions went from shock and horror at the event itself which changed to anger and rage when the extent of the cover up was detailed.

Hopefully now gets shown in the UK now the truth is out,

JFT96

 

[Portland Bill]

3 minutes ago, BS5_RED said:

I watched it when it was shown down here.

My emotions went from shock and horror at the event itself which changed to anger and rage when the extent of the cover up was detailed.

Hopefully now gets shown in the UK now the truth is out,

JFT96

 

Unfortunately it won't let us watch this, hopefully ( as you say) we will be able to in time.

[Bristol Rob]

The David Conn piece is a must read. 

 

[howey_ducky]

19 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

Unfortunately it won't let us watch this, hopefully ( as you say) we will be able to in time.

It's available in 4 thirty minute segments here http://www.molfc.com/30-on-30-espn-hillsborough/

It's a very one sided view on things but a decent documentary if you are in agreement with the Jury verdict today.

[Guest]

The sun and times front pages tomorrow make no mention of today's events. None.

 

[Davefevs]

8 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I'm surprised Sheffield Wednesday have got off so lightly to be honest. It was their safety certificates that were out-of-date. Their stadium manager was negligent. I'm sure I remember reading in David Conn's book The Beautiful Game? that as of 2005 nobody at Sheffield Wednesday had apologised to the victims families for what had happened.

I see they have finally apologised today.

Yep, read this book too.  Follow David Conn on Twitter, he is a fantastic journalist, who has stayed with this story for a long time.  Respect to him for his writing today.

4 hours ago, bristolmoose said:

I've never seen that letter from Ingham before. I'm utterly speechless.

 

Me too, couldn't believe it.

We all bleat on about the corruption in FIFA, World Cup bids etc, but recent events like the Panama leaks just go to show how close to home it is, and perhaps its our own naivety that needs challenging.  

I remember the day well, walking off the pitch at The Imperial Ground to ask someone what the Liverpool score was, to find out that it had been abandoned and people had died.  Was shocked, and the numbers kept going up.  A dark day.

Today won't bring them back, but it will give some closure.  It feels a very, very hollow victory for justice.

 

[Portland Bill]

9 minutes ago, Tomarse said:

The sun and times front pages tomorrow make no mention of today's events. None.

 

I couldn't believe it when I saw the sxn's front page on the news a while ago, even one of their journalists ( I know!)  who was reviewing tomorrow's papers was clearly embarrassed by it.

I'm Just watching Newsnight and its reported that investigations have been now going on for up to two years into several organisations involved in Hillsborough, obviously South Yorkshire police, and also ( our favourites) West Midlands police who covered SY police's arse when they were the "independent" force looking into SY handling of Hillsborough.

A lot of people had best be watching their backs, justice is coming to get you.

[One Team In Keynsham]

39 minutes ago, howey_ducky said:

It's available in 4 thirty minute segments here http://www.molfc.com/30-on-30-espn-hillsborough/

It's a very one sided view on things but a decent documentary if you are in agreement with the Jury verdict today.

Thanks for the links.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

I couldn't believe it when I saw the sxn's front page on the news a while ago, even one of their journalists ( I know!)  who was reviewing tomorrow's papers was clearly embarrassed by it.

I'm Just watching Newsnight and its reported that investigations have been now going on for up to two years into several organisations involved in Hillsborough, obviously South Yorkshire police, and also ( our favourites) West Midlands police who covered SY police's arse when they were the "independent" force looking into SY handling of Hillsborough.

A lot of people had best be watching their backs, justice is coming to get you.

Clearly Mr Murdoch has had his say, although surprised the times have been swayed as usually fairly independent from his grasp

[Red-Robbo]

20 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

I couldn't believe it when I saw the sxn's front page on the news a while ago, even one of their journalists ( I know!)  who was reviewing tomorrow's papers was clearly embarrassed by it.

I'm Just watching Newsnight and its reported that investigations have been now going on for up to two years into several organisations involved in Hillsborough, obviously South Yorkshire police, and also ( our favourites) West Midlands police who covered SY police's arse when they were the "independent" force looking into SY handling of Hillsborough.

A lot of people had best be watching their backs, justice is coming to get you.

******* love it if MacKenzie gets done for criminal libel - an imprisonable offence.

That pube-headed establishment lackey still earns £1m a year from Murdoxh.

[AshtonGreat]

3 hours ago, Jack Dawe said:

Yes it is, almost unreadable in parts. Terrible.

One thing, though, sits awkwardly with my own experience of going to football in the 80s:

"....survivors gave evidence of....no atmosphere of drunkeness or misbehaviour...."

That's precisely what I do remember from any big match, involving City, in the 80s. With much smaller crowds. And many other matches involving big clubs. If we had a big game, and took 1000 somewhere (Northampton, for example), there would be an "atmosphere of drunkeness and misbehaviour." Almost without fail. Times that following by 2 (Torquay), 3 (Notts Co), 4 (Reading) and so on (without getting to matches at Swindon, Plymouth, Rovers etc), and you got drunkeness and misbehaviour times 2 or 3 or 4. When we took 9k to Forest for our big cup semi, I remember drunkeness and misbehaviour before we got anywhere near Nottingham. Most big City games would see a number of fans detained or arrested for being "drunk and disorderly" and reports of this in Monday's E. Post. Liverpool had 24000 there that day and if you had asked me in 1989 if I thought there might be "drunkeness or misbehaviour" that day I would have said, of course. Pope/Catholic etc. But the evidence states that was not the case that day, and I wasn't there either, so we must accept this.

All I say is, that is not my experience of football in the 1980s. In my experience, "drunkeness and misbehaviour" was commonplace, and the bigger the game, the more of there was of it. In fact "drunkeness" and young lads absolutely "reeking" of alcohol, paralytic, is one of my earliest memories of Ashton Gate and football at that time.

And on big games, people (young males) would arrive late and start pushing and shoving, with some jumping the queue. That was not an unusual occurrence, as I remember it. 

So, because of my experiences, I find it surprising that there was no evidence, rather than little evidence. 

I have wrongly assumed that the same things I often witnessed at Div 3 matches had probably occurred that day at Hillsborough, based on my own experiences rather than the lurid press coverage at the time.

 

None of this is to deny the culpability of South Yorks police (my own experience of them made a lot of what we know now about them in all this quite easy to believe), and other people and organisations responsible for public order and safety that day. Shocking and despicable behaviour from them. What a shameful episode in this country's history. 

 

 

Football crowds in those days were incredibly volatile and unsafe. It's a miracle there weren't many more injuries

[allyolly]

How brilliant to see such consensus and heartfelt opinions expressed today.

How sad it has taken so long for justice to prevail.

Shame on the political leaders, police and misguided journalists of the time that compounded the grief of the victims and their families.

Remember leaving Ashton Gate on the day after a defeat (to Blackpool?). It didn't take long for that defeat to be completely meaningless as the story of Hillsborough disaster unfolded.

Justice for the 96 at last and well overdue.

[Super]

8 hours ago, Tomarse said:

The sun and times front pages tomorrow make no mention of today's events. None.

 

As expected. Oh course Phillip Green and Rita Ora are major stories. Disgrace.

[Aizoon]

53 minutes ago, Super said:

As expected. Oh course Phillip Green and Rita Ora are major stories. Disgrace.

Be fair, those are major stories. 

Incidentally, who the **** are they?

[Aizoon]

9 hours ago, Tomarse said:

The sun and times front pages tomorrow make no mention of today's events. None.

 

What else did you expect from the SCUM?

[Redderland]

Never forget the total silence and grief at Ashton Gate when we stood to mark it at the next home game, we all knew it could have been us and between us in the East End and the pitch was, of course, a bloody great iron fence.

 

[LondonBristolian]

12 hours ago, BigAlToby&Liam said:

I remember the day as if it was yesterday.

My thoughts are simply with those who died and their families. All have acted with enormous dignity during the intervening years. They deserve our respect.

Quite way anyone would start talking about Thatcher, her press secretary at the time or to try and politicise this is beyond me.

Today is simply a day to remember those who lost their lives on that warm, sunny afternoon.

RIP.

I'd suggest even the most cursory research into Hillsborough and how the cover-up happened could answer that question.  The Hillsborough cover-up was not an incident in isolation but the culmination of ten years of politicising the police force and using them as a tool for government control.  The police cover-up at Hillsborough contains several parallels with the Battle of Orgreave 5 years earlier where the same police force fabricated evidence to prosecute 95 people of rioting.  All were subsequently acquitted and the police were found to have lied repeatedly and changed witness statements.  Ultimately had the police not been used as a weapon to smear striking miners, they would not have had the same tools at the disposal to smear football fans.  And,had the government of the day been less concerned about the skeletons of Orgreave crawling out of the closet, they'd have been more open to examining Hillsborough must sooner and not been actively complicit in smearing the fans involved.  Nobody should try and politicise this and nor should anyone need to.  It already is a political matter.  Whichever political party you vote for, the Hillsborough cover-up is one of the darkest and most shameful incidents in the history of the Conservative Party and the repeated refusals to re-investigate reflect badly on Labour.