So, 8%

[gl1]

Amen, London Bristolian. My thoughts exactly. 

Spud, you seem a level headed reasonable chap and I thoroughly respect your religion and what it means to you. My issue is not what you think or don't think about sexuality. You are mature enough to remain open to gay people despite what the bible says or doesn't say depending on your version. The discussion here is turning to his young impressionable insecure gay people can feel reading about the 8%ers and the damage that can do to them if they are struggling with their sexuality. As a secure grounded 47 year old guy with a husband I can stick a middle finger up to people metaphorically speaking to the 8%ers. 

Some younger gay people not may be handle it as well as someone in my position. 

[spudski]

37 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Statistically you're not.  Don't know if that helps.  

 

What kind of recognition are you after?  You may need to elaborate on exactly what it is you want to happen.

Let's be honest.  It probably wouldn't be quite the paradise you'd imagine...

They are.  But some minorities get a tougher time than others.  Ultimately nobody should be discriminated against or disadvantaged on the basis of their ethnicity, gender, sexuality or disability.

In some ways I agree with you.  I think it's far better to explain to people where issues lie rather than simply telling them they are wrong.  At the same time, I refer to my last comment.  Ultimately nobody should be discriminated against or disadvantaged on the basis of their ethnicity, gender, sexuality or disability and the reality is that, if that wasn't happening, it would avoid the frustrated counter-reaction from the people who are being discriminated against.

In an ideal world, it would make no difference whatsoever.  But the reality is that, if you're a young person feeling isolated and alone because something sets you apart from your peers, seeing other people like you who can be role models makes a huge difference.  The simple fact is that a high-profile gay footballer would make a huge difference to gay people who wanted to get into sport, and also in challenging stereotypes about gay people.  Gareth Thomas changed a lot of people's perspectives on sexuality and what a gay man 'could' or could not do.  A gay footballer could do the same.  It shouldn't matter, of course.  But it does.

What's more, the Premier League is popular in countries where gay sex is illegal and can result in execution.  Don't underestimate the power to make a difference.

 

Probably nobody has asked that question to a mate.  But the fact is we know there are gay footballers who don't come out (statistically there must be) so clearly fan reaction matters to those players.  Nobody should live their life feeling they need to hide who they are or who they love. 

Gay people aren't a homogeneous mass.  Different people will think different things.  But there are certainly gay people who are troubled by the negative reaction they might get, especially if there is a realistic fear of physical violence mixed in with it.  Again the fact that gay footballers are not coming out backs that up.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I don't think anyone disputed that.  But free speech extends both ways.  If someone has the right to an opinion, someone else does have the right to ask (in a non-threatening way) why they have the opinion they have. Free speech means freedom to say what you like without being persecuted or imprisoned not freedom to say what you like without questions or consequence.

I didn't see that the poster said he was worried about them (or even called them 'insecure').  He just made the reasonable point that some heterosexual men wear their sexuality on their sleeves too.

 

Again, this is true.  But it's worth reflecting on the fact that you or I could go to any country in the world without a fear that we will be physically beaten, imprisoned or even killed due to who we want to have sex with.  A gay person does not have that luxury.

Indeed they should not. But neither should anyone feel unsafe, threatened or as though they need to hide who they are because of their sexuality.  And as long as that happens, this will continue to matter. 

Nice reply...and I agree to many points...although I think we may be coming from different angles slightly.

There are a few points though that aren't correct.

If a man sleeps with a woman he's not married too, in certain countries, that's illegal, and imprisonment or worse ensues.

Personally I think there are far more problems in the world to worry about. Lots of very serious problems.

Perhaps I'm different in my thinking...but I am fed up with the Media and organisations constantly putting such issues up, when I don't think there is a big problem.

The media, TV and other Sports and Entertainment is full of gay people...nearly every programme see's gay people at the forefront. People have got used to it....and excepted it. It's not a problem....the problem is the media, making it a problem.

You aren't going to make certain football fans stop being idiots. Because they are idiots, and do idiotic things...in all walks of life. You can't educate pork.

If you are fat and ginger, you're more likely to have worries about being accepted or ridiculed than a gay person.

3 minutes ago, gl1 said:

Amen, London Bristolian. My thoughts exactly. 

Spud, you seem a level headed reasonable chap and I thoroughly respect your religion and what it means to you. My issue is not what you think or don't think about sexuality. You are mature enough to remain open to gay people despite what the bible says or doesn't say depending on your version. The discussion here is turning to his young impressionable insecure gay people can feel reading about the 8%ers and the damage that can do to them if they are struggling with their sexuality. As a secure grounded 47 year old guy with a husband I can stick a middle finger up to people metaphorically speaking to the 8%ers. 

Some younger gay people not may be handle it as well as someone in my position. 

Hi mate...I put 'Christian'...as in, on my passport, not my way of life perse.

The young impressionable insecure gay people shouldn't worry about the 8%.

They should look at it for what it is...the media making a story about something that really doesn't exist.

Like I said before...the media, tv, music, radio, entertainment, sports, comedy, magazines, bands etc,etc,etc is full of gay people...it's totally out there, and in your face. It's excepted by society...there isn't a problem. Just the media being dicks and making a problem that doesn't exist.

Those 8% if they exist in this case....would be the same people who despise or poke fun at all minorities.

They aren't going to be educated and change....because they are bigots and idiots. They despise pretty much anything that isn't a clone of themselves.

You aren't going to make 100% change their views....you'll always get a small minority of idiots.

Surely the media, would be better off educating the gay insecure people, that it's not worth worrying about....as they are idiots?

You get idiots in all walks of life...surely?

I hope you can see my point...

 

[exAtyeoMax]

1 hour ago, LondonBristolian said:

Statistically you're not.  Don't know if that helps.  

 

What kind of recognition are you after?  You may need to elaborate on exactly what it is you want to happen.

Let's be honest.  It probably wouldn't be quite the paradise you'd imagine...

They are.  But some minorities get a tougher time than others.  Ultimately nobody should be discriminated against or disadvantaged on the basis of their ethnicity, gender, sexuality or disability.

In some ways I agree with you.  I think it's far better to explain to people where issues lie rather than simply telling them they are wrong.  At the same time, I refer to my last comment.  Ultimately nobody should be discriminated against or disadvantaged on the basis of their ethnicity, gender, sexuality or disability and the reality is that, if that wasn't happening, it would avoid the frustrated counter-reaction from the people who are being discriminated against.

In an ideal world, it would make no difference whatsoever.  But the reality is that, if you're a young person feeling isolated and alone because something sets you apart from your peers, seeing other people like you who can be role models makes a huge difference.  The simple fact is that a high-profile gay footballer would make a huge difference to gay people who wanted to get into sport, and also in challenging stereotypes about gay people.  Gareth Thomas changed a lot of people's perspectives on sexuality and what a gay man 'could' or could not do.  A gay footballer could do the same.  It shouldn't matter, of course.  But it does.

What's more, the Premier League is popular in countries where gay sex is illegal and can result in execution.  Don't underestimate the power to make a difference.

 

Probably nobody has asked that question to a mate.  But the fact is we know there are gay footballers who don't come out (statistically there must be) so clearly fan reaction matters to those players.  Nobody should live their life feeling they need to hide who they are or who they love. 

Gay people aren't a homogeneous mass.  Different people will think different things.  But there are certainly gay people who are troubled by the negative reaction they might get, especially if there is a realistic fear of physical violence mixed in with it.  Again the fact that gay footballers are not coming out backs that up.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I don't think anyone disputed that.  But free speech extends both ways.  If someone has the right to an opinion, someone else does have the right to ask (in a non-threatening way) why they have the opinion they have. Free speech means freedom to say what you like without being persecuted or imprisoned not freedom to say what you like without questions or consequence.

I didn't see that the poster said he was worried about them (or even called them 'insecure').  He just made the reasonable point that some heterosexual men wear their sexuality on their sleeves too.

 

Again, this is true.  But it's worth reflecting on the fact that you or I could go to any country in the world without a fear that we will be physically beaten, imprisoned or even killed due to who we want to have sex with.  A gay person does not have that luxury.

Indeed they should not. But neither should anyone feel unsafe, threatened or as though they need to hide who they are because of their sexuality.  And as long as that happens, this will continue to matter. 

Do you think that is why there are no openly gay footballers in the Prem? They have been told to keep quiet…?

[T R]

We see players hugging and kissing all the time especially after they scored, a few gay players wouldn't make any difference. Let's just get on with life ffs. 

[1bristolcity]

20 hours ago, gl1 said:

Here we go again, the great gay debate in football.

As a gay man I couldn't give a flying do dah if members of my team I support are gay, bi, transsexual, asexual, eunuch, or whatever. I also don't mind if the referee, the linesperson, the steward or the person who pours my tea is either. Or isn't. Or is undecided. Or maybe after a few pints might be as long as his girlfriend isn't looking.

So, if 8% of a fanbase walks away due to one or more players being gay, well, good riddance, I don't want to be sat next to such a shallow and misinformed individual. Let them go follow a macho, 100% straight, not homoerotic at all sport, like rugby, where no player would ever be gay (here's looking at you Gareth). As long as they keep on the right side of the law, respect my right to be who I want to be, just as I respect their right to be who they want to be, we'll all be grand  

By mere probability there will be gay men who have done, currently do, or will play for us a some point. Hopefully they will be fit as, (here's hoping Mr O'Donnell)

 

 

This is probably why any gay footballer would be best to not 'out' himself, OK you are 'Gay, it really is a non issue for most of us, well 92% but I suspect it is for many more. Being gay is still a stigma that many are burdened with in this country, and a great deal more so in other countries, Russia for example. God knows the abuse a player would suffer from these 'fans', why they can't even come to terms with the fact not all footballers are white. 

Personally fwiw I am hetrosexual, and been married a good many years, but my service life was ruined because I was accused of being Gay because I refused to fit up a Gay NCO on a trumped up charge. I was demoted and felt humilated, football like the Services is a Macho environment, like football, we are still some time away from acceptance of those who may have different preferences.

 

[Londoner]

21 hours ago, Malago said:

So  you're not prejudice against gays but you are against conservatives, 38% of the population st the last election.  Would this prejudice extend to boycotting the club if the team included Tory voters, which by the law of averages it almost certainly does.

Of course

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Londoner said:

Of course

Does that extend to supporters of your own? I liked your response to Spudski (although my appreciation was greater than 'like'), but I now feel perhaps that wasn't welcome 

[Bristol Rob]

I ventured over to the dark Web  (I think that's how modern media refer to a Gas message board), and the tone of a similar debate they are having to the same subject matter is quite different to the nature of the discussion here.

Granted, most would have no problem supporting a gay player, but they seem to have at least one who wouldn't be comfortable.

[New2City]

10 hours ago, alexukhc said:

Simply don't care, I don't know why players are scared to come out. It's not like it's a choice, something you can choose is it?

Ah, but there's the rub... Probably a good amount of your 8%'s believe that it is a choice, that people aren't born that way, and that they choose to engage in such behaviors for whatever reason.

Personally, I believe that sort of thinking to be rubbish.

[alexukhc]

1 hour ago, New2City said:

Ah, but there's the rub... Probably a good amount of your 8%'s believe that it is a choice, that people aren't born that way, and that they choose to engage in such behaviors for whatever reason.

Personally, I believe that sort of thinking to be rubbish.

But the 8% can choose to be homophobic or not, I don't like this world

[Olé]

1 hour ago, Bristol Rob said:

I ventured over to the dark Web  (I think that's how modern media refer to a Gas message board), and the tone of a similar debate they are having to the same subject matter is quite different to the nature of the discussion here.

Granted, most would have no problem supporting a gay player, but they seem to have at least one who wouldn't be comfortable.

Of course some of the Gasheads would be uncomfortable about having a "gay footballer" - they despise anyone remotely resembling a footballer. 

[LondonBristolian]

1 hour ago, 29AR said:

Does that extend to supporters of your own? I liked your response to Spudski (although my appreciation was greater than 'like'), but I now feel perhaps that wasn't welcome 

Are you confusing me and Londoner? Don't think he replied to Spudski unless I missed it...

[Barrs Court Red]

I wouldn't trust anything like this from the BBC. 

I think a truer figure would be 0. 

[Sir Colby-Tit]

Load of bollocks I reckon, typical media stirring up division. 

50% have witnessed homophobia ? I call bullshit on that for a start. The chants aimed at Brighton aren't homophobic, that's fans winding each other up. 

I've been going to City for 40 years and haven't witnessed any. 

Why would anyone want to "come out" in public anyway?  Fair enough telling your family, but apart from that, it's just weird. 

It's 2016, your average Joe couldn't give a rat's arse.

I sometimes think LGBT's  biggest fear is no one paying them any attention. 

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Sir Colby-Tit said:

Load of bollocks I reckon, typical media stirring up division. 

50% have witnessed homophobia ? I call bullshit on that for a start. The chants aimed at Brighton aren't homophobic, that's fans winding each other up. 

I've been going to City for 40 years and haven't witnessed any. 

Why would anyone want to "come out" in public anyway?  Fair enough telling your family, but apart from that, it's just weird. 

It's 2016, your average Joe couldn't give a rat's arse.

I sometimes think LGBT's  biggest fear is no one paying them any attention. 

The media; it is the media telling us we should pay attention.

I read some posts on here from some people criticising others for flaunting their (homo)sexuality and completely revile. For every stereotypical flamboyant you have at least one more over sex-drived, carpet-under-arm, knuckle dragging hetero but somehow that's less 'flaunting' of their sexuality is it? Bullshit. I hope same folk take as much offence from the daily star, nuts, fhm etc as being as 'in-your-face' or the hypocrisy must be clear to all but them. 

It's peacocking, everyone portrays what they want and fair play to anyone who portrays themselves in a manner they find comfortable, so long as it isn't offensive.

Anyone finding offense in oversexualisation better turn off the tv, cancel their internet, stop buying mass media and live under a rock. 

[LondonBristolian]

9 minutes ago, Sir Colby-Tit said:

Load of bollocks I reckon, typical media stirring up division. 

50% have witnessed homophobia ? I call bullshit on that for a start. The chants aimed at Brighton aren't homophobic, that's fans winding each other up. 

I've been going to City for 40 years and haven't witnessed any. 

Why would anyone want to "come out" in public anyway?  Fair enough telling your family, but apart from that, it's just weird. 

It's 2016, your average Joe couldn't give a rat's arse.

I sometimes think LGBT's  biggest fear is no one paying them any attention. 

I'm only guessing here but I imagine it's because people don't like living their lives in secrecy for no apparent reason.  And, if you go out locally to where you live, people you know are going to see you out and about with your partner and perhaps even kissing & holding hands.  How exactly do you suggest people avoid coming out in public without sacrificing basic freedoms and pleasures that heterosexual people take for granted?

I might be wrong but I suspect most LGBT people's biggest fear is actually being beaten up or killed because someone takes exception to their sexuality.  On a wholly unrelated note, here's a news story about an 18 year old gay guy who was set on fire...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2297053/Yob-killed-autistic-gay-teenager-Steven-Simpson-setting-18th-birthday-party.html

[Sir Colby-Tit]

4 minutes ago, 29AR said:

The media; it is the media telling us we should pay attention.

I read some posts on here about some people criticising others for flaunting their (homo)sexuality and completely revile. For every stereotypical flamboyant you have your over sex-drived, carpet-under-arm, knuckle dragged hetero but somehow that's less 'flaunting' of their sexuality is it? Bullshit. 

I didn't mention stereotypical flamboyant gay people. Last year at my office party a senior partner from our London office told me he was gay within five minutes of meeting him. Why? 

I don't give a shit. 

I wouldn't annonce to someone I'd just met that I prefer Asian women these days, because that would be weird. 

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Sir Colby-Tit said:

I didn't mention stereotypical flamboyant gay people. Last year at my office party a senior partner from our London office told me he was gay within five minutes of meeting him. Why? 

I don't give a shit. 

I wouldn't annonce to someone I'd just met that I prefer Asian women these days, because that would be weird. 

 

Only the first sentence was in response to the quote, the rest was my rant at others, apologies for any confusion  

 

[Sir Colby-Tit]

2 minutes ago, 29AR said:

Only the first sentence was in response to the quote, the rest was my rant at others, apologies for any confusion  

 

No worries, the Asian women comment is true, but please don't tell the mrs! 

[ukneil]

8 hours ago, handsofclay said:

I would endorse this. I well remember, and the distaste has not been diluted, when in an FA Cup 3rd round replay v Notts County in 1984, John Chedoze, the County winger, went to fetch the ball to give it back to City having been, I think, caught offside. This sporting gesture was met with a chorus of monkey chants from loads of City fans. I applauded Chedoze and stopped going to AG for about 18 months, so disgusted was I. I did not want to be amongst such Neanderthals.

I tend to suspect that if homophobic abuse was levelled at an opposing player who was displaying similar sporting behaviour now I would react in the same fashion. I would feel sick being amongst such idiots wwho are also cowards to boot. The only thing that would prevent me from absenting myself would be if there was a significant majority of City fans who then booed the prejudiced numbskulls amongst them.

I appreciate you know times have changed handsofclay and I probably don't need to say this for you to feel better about 'that' incident, but - around the midish to late nineties I was sat in the Atyeo when I guy behind me reacted to a black opposition player making a crucial tackle by saying 'you black b******' - before I could even turn around there were numerous tuts, shut-ups, shame on you etc etc.  I was very proud of my fellow City fans reaction to this Neanderthal.  Mass Brighton chants notwithstanding I genuinely think the reaction would be much the same if a City 'fan' was to make a direct homophobic remark in this day and age.

That said, whether the actual figure is 8% or not I think we hear enough in our day to day lives to know prejudice is still well and truly out there and because of this I think the point is not 'why are the media strong proponents of gay footballers coming out, gay people shouldn’t need to make a point of telling people they are gay etc' – but rather the environment is still such that gay players have to make a point of not coming out while taking extreme measures to conceal their sexual orientation. 

I am sure a gay player would love to live a normal life and actively do such things with their same sex partner as go to a nightclub, take a stroll on the beach, go shopping etc etc without giving it a second thought and be seen to be ‘making a point of it’.  Evidently we are nowhere near that environment yet (and it’s exactly the same here in Canada – there are not many publicly gay ice hockey players) but I don’t believe that is just the fault of this ‘8%’ minority.  In much the same way racism was once institutionalised (and in some cases still is?) homophobia is exactly the same and the football industry – other players, coaches / managers, administrators as well as the media and supporters need to take a good deep look inside themselves and ask if they are adding to the toxic environment that stops grown adults just being themselves and living their lives according to the civil liberties that are enshrined in law.

.

 

[Sir Colby-Tit]

7 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I'm only guessing here but I imagine it's because people don't like living their lives in secrecy for no apparent reason.  And, if you go out locally to where you live, people you know are going to see you out and about with your partner and perhaps even kissing & holding hands.  How exactly do you suggest people avoid coming out in public without sacrificing basic freedoms and pleasures that heterosexual people take for granted?

I might be wrong but I suspect most LGBT people's biggest fear is actually being beaten up or killed because someone takes exception to their sexuality.  On a wholly unrelated note, here's a news story about an 18 year old gay guy who was set on fire...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2297053/Yob-killed-autistic-gay-teenager-Steven-Simpson-setting-18th-birthday-party.html

As I said, tell your family, come out in private. The public doesn't need to know and the vast majority don't care. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, ukneil said:

I appreciate you know times have changed handsofclay and I probably don't need to say this for you to feel better about 'that' incident, but - around the midish to late nineties I was sat in the Atyeo when I guy behind me reacted to a black opposition player making a crucial tackle by saying 'you black b******' - before I could even turn around there were numerous tuts, shut-ups, shame on you etc etc.  I was very proud of my fellow City fans reaction to this Neanderthal.  Mass Brighton chants notwithstanding I genuinely think the reaction would be much the same if a City 'fan' was to make a direct homophobic remark in this day and age.

That said, whether the actual figure is 8% or not I think we hear enough in our day to day lives to know prejudice is still well and truly out there and because of this I think the point is not 'why are the media strong proponents of gay footballers coming out, gay people shouldn’t need to make a point of telling people they are gay etc' – but rather the environment is still such that gay players have to make a point of not coming out while taking extreme measures to conceal their sexual orientation. 

I am sure a gay player would love to live a normal life and actively do such things with their same sex partner as go to a nightclub, take a stroll on the beach, go shopping etc etc without giving it a second thought and be seen to be ‘making a point of it’.  Evidently we are nowhere near that environment yet (and it’s exactly the same here in Canada – there are not many publicly gay ice hockey players) but I don’t believe that is just the fault of this ‘8%’ minority.  In much the same way racism was once institutionalised (and in some cases still is?) homophobia is exactly the same and the football industry – other players, coaches / managers, administrators as well as the media and supporters need to take a good deep look inside themselves and ask if they are adding to the toxic environment that stops grown adults just being themselves and living their lives according to the civil liberties that are enshrined in law.

.

 

I think you are spot on with your opening para. In many ways it might take an 'out' player to prove that actually few would tolerate such behaviour. 

[LondonBristolian]

5 minutes ago, Sir Colby-Tit said:

As I said, tell your family, come out in private. The public doesn't need to know and the vast majority don't care. 

Out of interest, do you keep your own sexuality private and within your own family only?  Or are your friends, work colleagues, neighbours, and people you meet at pubs and restaurants aware that you fancy women?

Assuming the latter, how would you feel if you had to keep that a secret?

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Sir Colby-Tit said:

As I said, tell your family, come out in private. The public doesn't need to know and the vast majority don't care. 

And anyone that cares isn't worth caring about.

I do wonder though if to some it might be a generational/pride matter to be so open about it. Thinking for instance of your senior partner example; I am assuming this is a person of a particular age. To come out for them shows a lot more courage and standing up to adversity than it might to an 18 year old today - not suggesting that this involves no such traits for them per se. I can see therefore why to some it may be a 'badge of honour'. 

[1bristolcity]

10 hours ago, gl1 said:

The 8% have been quiet. It's great people have been so positive towards this topic. As a gay man that means a lot. 

I would, however, like to hear from someone who agrees with the 8% why one of our players coming out would make them walk away from BCFC? Not trying to get into an argument just genuinely interested. Everyones opinion is as valid as anyone else's regardless of sex or sexuality so keep it legal, on topic and let's hear from the minority. As from a minority group myself it's important you 8%ers get to tell us why you feel the way you do. 

I'm not falling for that...

[Sir Colby-Tit]

2 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Out of interest, do you keep your own sexuality private and within your own family only?  Or are your friends, work colleagues, neighbours, and people you meet at pubs and restaurants aware that you fancy women?

Assuming the latter, how would you feel if you had to keep that a secret?

I don't think gay people should keep it secret. Walk along hand in hand, kiss in public, whatever. Do the things everyone does, I genuinely feel that it's not much of an issue these days.

Maybe I'm wrong and your average gay person suffers abuse all the time, but I haven't witnessed it. 

I'm no stranger to prejudice, being in a mixed race relationship, but couldn't care less what people think. 

 

 

 

[Wanderingred]

33 minutes ago, Sir Colby-Tit said:

No worries, the Asian women comment is true, but please don't tell the mrs! 

Would you like to meet my North Korean female pleasure squad?

[Sir Colby-Tit]

5 minutes ago, Kim_il_sung said:

Would you like to meet my North Korean female pleasure squad?

PM me 

[shelts]

12 hours ago, Dr Balls said:

Without getting too political there have been worrying signs since the referendum that a small minority have thought they have licence to say offensive things to anyone who they perceive as different or disagrees with them, but hopefully that will pass....

Bollox. 

[chipdawg]

9 hours ago, shelts said:

Bollox. 

The NPCC (as referenced in this BBC article), disagree with you 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36964916