Alessandro Posted February 6, 2017 Report Share Posted February 6, 2017 6 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said: No, not really. He's doing a very good job at his boyhood club and why on earth Mark Ashton, who knows him well, would think he'd join us at the moment is quite baffling. Concerning if these are the types of approaches we are making. Maybe Rowett isn't interested or we aren't willing to match his wage demands. To be honest, without wishing to call the OP a liar, it doesn't really add up for me. Firstly, I don't think MA would go about it in this way - a public meeting at a game?! And secondly, if as the OP has said, Wilder doesn't want the job, why would his agent come down to a game to say no thank you. Interesting, time will tell. I'm sure feelers are out there though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ontariored Posted February 6, 2017 Report Share Posted February 6, 2017 If this is true, it so reinforces my lack of confidence with football management by BCFC or Bristol Sports whatever the imaginary pillars are thinking. This is totally worse than Trump in the U.S. and lets throw Brexit in there as well. Is MA our biggest problem?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted February 6, 2017 Report Share Posted February 6, 2017 I can't understand why anyone on here would want to risk Rowett or Wilder...how are they any different to LJ? Both from lower leagues. Both under 50. Rowett did well at Birmingham...but his win rate for them is 1% more than LJ's here. Why would anyone think they are better than what we have? There is no proof. Wouldn't it be better to have a manager/coach who has had teams that were both successful and had to turn around a team from a slump and adversity? It happens to every team. You want a manager that has bad times, but can turn it around and knows how too. If you have a manager that does well...then slumps, but doesn't know how to get out of that slump...you end up sacking him. You employ the same...then repeat. And it goes on...and on... It just end up a conveyor belt of managers that achieve short term, then fail. Employ a new one...achieve short term again...then fail and sack. It's utter madness when you think logically about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted February 6, 2017 Report Share Posted February 6, 2017 I'm just watching the 'goal rush' ( league 1&2 highlights) from last weekend. Keith Curle is one of the guests, he has just said that a club came in for him very recently, he decided he wanted to finish the job he's started at Carlisle though. I'm not saying it was us who contacted him, but the way SL ( City connections etc) works it could possibly have been us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted February 6, 2017 Report Share Posted February 6, 2017 21 minutes ago, spudski said: I can't understand why anyone on here would want to risk Rowett or Wilder...how are they any different to LJ? Both from lower leagues. Both under 50. Rowett did well at Birmingham...but his win rate for them is 1% more than LJ's here. Why would anyone think they are better than what we have? There is no proof. Wouldn't it be better to have a manager/coach who has had teams that were both successful and had to turn around a team from a slump and adversity? It happens to every team. You want a manager that has bad times, but can turn it around and knows how too. If you have a manager that does well...then slumps, but doesn't know how to get out of that slump...you end up sacking him. You employ the same...then repeat. And it goes on...and on... It just end up a conveyor belt of managers that achieve short term, then fail. Employ a new one...achieve short term again...then fail and sack. It's utter madness when you think logically about it. Rowett did a very good job at Burton as well as Birmingham.so he's the one whose been successful, LJ hasn't had an ounce of success in his coaching career. So by comparing what he did at those two clubs to what LJ has done at his three, it's clear to see Rowett has more going for him. What you are saying is basically we shouldn't have sacked SC last season, because his situation was exactly the same as LJ's is now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ontariored Posted February 6, 2017 Report Share Posted February 6, 2017 3 minutes ago, Portland Bill said: Rowett did a very good job at Burton as well as Birmingham.so he's the one whose been successful, LJ hasn't had an ounce of success in his coaching career. So by comparing what he did at those two clubs to what LJ has done at his three, it's clear to see Rowett has more going for him. What you are saying is basically we shouldn't have sacked SC last season, because his situation was exactly the same as LJ's is now! Except LJ is more of a "yes" man apparently!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandro Posted February 6, 2017 Report Share Posted February 6, 2017 13 minutes ago, Portland Bill said: Rowett did a very good job at Burton as well as Birmingham.so he's the one whose been successful, LJ hasn't had an ounce of success in his coaching career. So by comparing what he did at those two clubs to what LJ has done at his three, it's clear to see Rowett has more going for him. What you are saying is basically we shouldn't have sacked SC last season, because his situation was exactly the same as LJ's is now! I'm not convinced by Rowett, but I can see what you're saying. He is the kind of manager we would have to go for, should LJ get fired. R.E SC - I think the difference is this time a) although many have predicted it will happen, we are not yet in the relegation zone and b) relations and work going on behind the scenes are apparently better under LJ than under SC at this same point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted February 6, 2017 Report Share Posted February 6, 2017 26 minutes ago, Portland Bill said: Rowett did a very good job at Burton as well as Birmingham.so he's the one whose been successful, LJ hasn't had an ounce of success in his coaching career. So by comparing what he did at those two clubs to what LJ has done at his three, it's clear to see Rowett has more going for him. What you are saying is basically we shouldn't have sacked SC last season, because his situation was exactly the same as LJ's is now! SC did a fantastic job for us in league 1...as did Rowett with Burton. However SC had a 15% win rate in the Championship with us...LJ has a 38% win rate. If LJ got in the same position as SC did...then I too would think he would have to go. As I also pointed out...Rowetts success rate in win rates compared to LJ in the Championship is 1% difference. My point being...Rowett has had two jobs...still unproven. Yes he's done ok with the two jobs he's had...but how can fans call for experience, when the guy has had one job at one club in the Championship? Hardly experience is it. 1 more season in the Championship than LJ...ridiculous thinking he could do any better, based on 1 more seasons experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid in the Riot Posted February 6, 2017 Report Share Posted February 6, 2017 @spudski Rowett managed Burton in L2 finishing in the play offs twice, ultimately failing to win promotion to L1. Dopey got the sags up to L1 and Wilder won L2 with Northampton with 99 pts. Don't get me wrong I think he did OK at Burton but I think it tend's to get a bit exaggerated on here. Like LJ he basically got the Brum job because he was a former player. Another doubt about Rowett is that it appears to have come to light that the reason he was axed by Brum is because he rejected a new contract offer and was apparently 'flirting' with other clubs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpexile Posted February 6, 2017 Report Share Posted February 6, 2017 I'm surprised that considering the good job that Pembo & Elliott did that not many are/have considered Pembo. He knows the playing group inside out & I think could get more out of them but who am I to make choices. That's just my opinion but i think in our position it's often better "The Devil you know" scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted February 6, 2017 Report Share Posted February 6, 2017 46 minutes ago, Alessandro said: I'm not convinced by Rowett, but I can see what you're saying. He is the kind of manager we would have to go for, should LJ get fired. R.E SC - I think the difference is this time a) although many have predicted it will happen, we are not yet in the relegation zone and b) relations and work going on behind the scenes are apparently better under LJ than under SC at this same point. Don't get me wrong, I'm not sticking my hand up for Gary Rowett. I just wanted to point out that he has done an excellent job at both Burton and Brum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unan Posted February 6, 2017 Report Share Posted February 6, 2017 On 05/02/2017 at 14:44, Bar BS3 said: I don't argue that he's no good. I simply asked if his record as manager in the championship was really much more impressive than LJ's..? Looking at both of their win percentages in the Championship, there isn't a lot between them. Despite the horrible recent run that we have been on. It's much more impressive yes, looking at %s gives no indication of players, budgets etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted February 6, 2017 Report Share Posted February 6, 2017 1 hour ago, bpexile said: I'm surprised that considering the good job that Pembo & Elliott did that not many are/have considered Pembo. He knows the playing group inside out & I think could get more out of them but who am I to make choices. That's just my opinion but i think in our position it's often better "The Devil you know" scenario. He wasn't in charge for a large enough amount of games to be able to make a judgement. People also seem to gloss over the fact that he's part of the same management team that lost 8 games in a row. I think if we were to change manager it would be best to have a fresh set of eyes, not someone who's been here for a few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superjack Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 4 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said: He wasn't in charge for a large enough amount of games to be able to make a judgement. People also seem to gloss over the fact that he's part of the same management team that lost 8 games in a row. I think if we were to change manager it would be best to have a fresh set of eyes, not someone who's been here for a few years. If you think that John Pemberton has anywhere near the same amount of input under Lee Johnson as he had under the previous manager then I would wager that you are wrong. I am frankly surprised that the 'little general' hasn't shown him the door like he has with others that brought us success before he turned up. Maybe Pemberton's apparent popularity within the club has protected him from the same fate. Whatever the situation, he is the one coach at the club that I wouldn't be laying the blame for this cluster***k of recent form at the feet of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 5 minutes ago, Superjack said: If you think that John Pemberton has anywhere near the same amount of input under Lee Johnson as he had under the previous manager then I would wager that you are wrong. I am frankly surprised that the 'little general' hasn't shown him the door like he has with others that brought us success before he turned up. Maybe Pemberton's apparent popularity within the club has protected him from the same fate. Whatever the situation, he is the one coach at the club that I wouldn't be laying the blame for this cluster***k of recent form at the feet of. How can you say that with such confidence? Unless you have genuine inside information about what goes on at the club every day - you can't. All of the management team, and players, are to blame for the recent form. Absolutely no-one is exempt from criticism for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superjack Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said: How can you say that with such confidence? Unless you have genuine inside information about what goes on at the club every day - you can't. All of the management team, and players, are to blame for the recent form. Absolutely no-one is exempt from criticism for that. I didn't say it 'with confidence', I said 'I would wager'. I suppose that it is fair enough to argue that everyone is 'guilty by association'. I would counter that by suggesting that (hypothetically speaking) IF someone's opinion and input were to hold about as much sway with the man making the decisions as those of the tea lady, then their culpability should perhaps be judged accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 10 minutes ago, Superjack said: I didn't say it 'with confidence', I said 'I would wager'. I suppose that it is fair enough to argue that everyone is 'guilty by association'. I would counter that by suggesting that (hypothetically speaking) IF someone's opinion and input were to hold about as much sway with the man making the decisions as those of the tea lady, then their culpability should perhaps be judged accordingly. To 'wager' about something you have to be 'confident' regarding the subject but lets not get too concerned with syntax. The point is that whilst he seems like a nice guy and steadied the ship well last season, it's not nearly a big enough sample size of games for people to confidently say he'd be any better. We don't know how much of the slight upturn in form under his caretakership' was down to the dead cat bounce that often comes after a manager departs. For some reason though, on here he seems teflon. There seems to be this assumption that his influence has lessened under Johnson - no one knows whether that's true or not. Likewise, people seem to think Pemberton has been pushed aside or replaced with the appointment of Holden - likewise, no one knows. I just find it a bit bizarre how he seems immune to any criticism when he was part of the management team who saw us go on an 8 league game losing streak. We don't know how much or little input he has - but due to his position, and time he's spent around the club, I think it's a fair assertion to make to say that he has a fair amount. He's not from here and if you believe the bookies, he's had interest from clubs for many manager roles much closer to his home and family. If he felt he was being undermined or had no influence, do you really think he'd still be here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brizzlelou Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 8 hours ago, spudski said: SC did a fantastic job for us in league 1...as did Rowett with Burton. However SC had a 15% win rate in the Championship with us...LJ has a 38% win rate. If LJ got in the same position as SC did...then I too would think he would have to go. As I also pointed out...Rowetts success rate in win rates compared to LJ in the Championship is 1% difference. My point being...Rowett has had two jobs...still unproven. Yes he's done ok with the two jobs he's had...but how can fans call for experience, when the guy has had one job at one club in the Championship? Hardly experience is it. 1 more season in the Championship than LJ...ridiculous thinking he could do any better, based on 1 more seasons experience. Gary monk had 1 club and some fans didn't want him either. Not done too badly, has he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChippenhamRed Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 1 hour ago, brizzlelou said: Gary monk had 1 club and some fans didn't want him either. Not done too badly, has he? That's one example. For every Monk there is a Saunders! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samo II Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 10 hours ago, spudski said: However SC had a 15% win rate in the Championship with us...LJ has a 38% win rate. If LJ got in the same position as SC did...then I too would think he would have to go. As I also pointed out...Rowetts success rate in win rates compared to LJ in the Championship is 1% difference. Sigh... I'd link back to my original post on this, but I'm getting bored of constantly pointing out what a myopic way of measuring success the 'win rate' stat actually is. In raw numbers; Rowett has twice led a team to finish tenth in this league, while LJ has lost more games in charge of us than he has won - when LJ can boast similar finishes and put together a team that doesn't lose 44% of the time (as opposed to Rowett's 30%), then let's start discussing relative success. Until then, can we please step back from this lazy assumption that win ratio without context is a wise stat to use to measure mangerial competence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrumpty Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 30 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said: That's one example. For every Monk there is a Saunders! There's a thought, Saunders will be cheap. Go get him Steve! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 20 minutes ago, billywedlock said: I agree , Rowett is not the type of candidate we should be looking for. Similar experience to LJ, if we make a change it should be for the next level up, not more of the same (even if both could/will/can/maybe become strong head coaches in the future with the right experience) . I would't think Rowett could do any better than LJ . If we ever replace LJ I would hope we invest well in getting a high quality coach with experience . Whilst not practical or realistic, what in my view should have happened is that we hired at the right level, AND with that we brought in people like LJ or now say a Millen to work with them. Irrespective of LJ, I just don't see the quality and experience of our coaches at the level of our ambitions. Clubs spend millions on players, sometimes I wish they would look more at their complete coaching set up. England still seems so far behind in this regard. As much as we would all like to see academy players develop (without Cat 1 it is a waste of time currently- Prem clubs will only leave us with Champ and L 1 players) why can a club not be renowned for producing the best coaches and sports scientists in the game ? If Benitez was persuaded to try the Championship, surely Martinez is wasted as Belgium boss :-) I totally agree BW. I think we may have limited ourselves in who coach's or manages us in the future though. Traditionally managers like to work their way and bring in their team of people. I'm now under the impression that the Club have set up a blue print as to how they want it run...and not how any individual manager wants to run it. Any new coach/manager would have to agree to this set up. The managing it seems is done by MA. The coaching by LJ. I think the Club sees this as a way forward...keeping the two parts of the job separate, which imo, is a good thing, as it lets one man solely work on the playing side. Any new Coach would also have to agree with the new pathway of getting Academy players through quickly...and work closely with the Academy. Very few Coach's would agree to this...as they know it's a massive risk blooding players and can effect how it looks for them on their personal CV if it goes wrong. I know the Academy love LJ because he takes an active interest, like no other manager before. So when people talk about bringing in new coach's and managers, they need to keep this situation into consideration. We are doing it differently...and any new Coach would have to fit in with that ideology. That's why I'm content to let LJ try and turn things around...because he has agreed to the idea and strategy. This certainly goes back to Mckinne's days...more so with SoD where he actually started to set things up, that turned out detrimental to him and the first team, SC agreed in principle first season...then turned 'feral'...someone else's term not mine who is associated with the Club...and LJ has been 'groomed' for this position because the club knew he would agree to do it and was excited by the idea and challenge and could work as a team rather than a lone wolf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 4 minutes ago, spudski said: I totally agree BW. I think we may have limited ourselves in who coach's or manages us in the future though. Traditionally managers like to work their way and bring in their team of people. I'm now under the impression that the Club have set up a blue print as to how they want it run...and not how any individual manager wants to run it. Any new coach/manager would have to agree to this set up. The managing it seems is done by MA. The coaching by LJ. I think the Club sees this as a way forward...keeping the two parts of the job separate, which imo, is a good thing, as it lets one man solely work on the playing side. Any new Coach would also have to agree with the new pathway of getting Academy players through quickly...and work closely with the Academy. Very few Coach's would agree to this...as they know it's a massive risk blooding players and can effect how it looks for them on their personal CV if it goes wrong. I know the Academy love LJ because he takes an active interest, like no other manager before. So when people talk about bringing in new coach's and managers, they need to keep this situation into consideration. We are doing it differently...and any new Coach would have to fit in with that ideology. That's why I'm content to let LJ try and turn things around...because he has agreed to the idea and strategy. This certainly goes back to Mckinne's days...more so with SoD where he actually started to set things up, that turned out detrimental to him and the first team, SC agreed in principle first season...then turned 'feral'...someone else's term not mine who is associated with the Club...and LJ has been 'groomed' for this position because the club knew he would agree to do it and was excited by the idea and challenge and could work as a team rather than a lone wolf. I've thought over the past few weeks, for the reasons you mention, that maybe our next coach will be from abroad. They may be more used to a set up like that with less autonomy. I think it's a very good system and should cause minimum disruption as possible overall should a manager leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superjack Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 8 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said: To 'wager' about something you have to be 'confident' regarding the subject but lets not get too concerned with syntax. The point is that whilst he seems like a nice guy and steadied the ship well last season, it's not nearly a big enough sample size of games for people to confidently say he'd be any better. We don't know how much of the slight upturn in form under his caretakership' was down to the dead cat bounce that often comes after a manager departs. For some reason though, on here he seems teflon. There seems to be this assumption that his influence has lessened under Johnson - no one knows whether that's true or not. Likewise, people seem to think Pemberton has been pushed aside or replaced with the appointment of Holden - likewise, no one knows. I just find it a bit bizarre how he seems immune to any criticism when he was part of the management team who saw us go on an 8 league game losing streak. We don't know how much or little input he has - but due to his position, and time he's spent around the club, I think it's a fair assertion to make to say that he has a fair amount. He's not from here and if you believe the bookies, he's had interest from clubs for many manager roles much closer to his home and family. If he felt he was being undermined or had no influence, do you really think he'd still be here? To be fair I can't argue with much of that, although the interest from other clubs is obviously conjecture also. I'm certainly not suggesting that he is 'immune from criticism'. What we DO know is that he arrested the slide the last time we were in shit like this. It may, as you say, have been 'dead cat bounce. But if we are to continue in this league we are going to need a bounce and bloody fast, and it isn't going to arrive under Johnson IMO. Like the crowd, his dead cat stopped bouncing a long time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Isewater Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 20 hours ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said: I expect that even if Lee was doing well then SL/MA would still be keeping tabs on who's next- all club's must do that to an extent. It became pretty clear that LJ had been lined up as a replacement well before Cotts went. Just about every club are stuck in the same Managerial revolving door either through poor results or too much success. It wouldn't surprise me if the gun had been loaded some time ago but there being no clear target of an alternative Manager out there at present. What does surprise me is that many fans think that SL having invested £50m in Ashton Gate and then c.£15m on team building is blind to our situation.He will be making his decisions behind the scenes and LJ may not be the first to learn what they are. SC was sacked by text ( or at least that's what SC told me) so there's a pretty ruthless streak there when he wants. As far as the players go- most seem scared of their own shadow atm but I think that's more about lack of confidence than lack of a plan. " Hi Steve , it's Steve , you're fired :laugh: " The evidence . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Isewater Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 43 minutes ago, Superjack said: To be fair I can't argue with much of that, although the interest from other clubs is obviously conjecture also. I'm certainly not suggesting that he is 'immune from criticism'. What we DO know is that he arrested the slide the last time we were in shit like this. It may, as you say, have been 'dead cat bounce. But if we are to continue in this league we are going to need a bounce and bloody fast, and it isn't going to arrive under Johnson IMO. Like the crowd, his dead cat stopped bouncing a long time ago. The dead cat bounce is a bit of a myth if you ask supporters of Brum or Palace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marina's Rolls Royce Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 5 minutes ago, Major Isewater said: The dead cat bounce is a bit of a myth if you ask supporters of Brum or Palace. or Bristol City ( So'd/Benny) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 27 minutes ago, Major Isewater said: The dead cat bounce is a bit of a myth if you ask supporters of Brum or Palace. In general, as a rule, it's true though. Birmingham's cat wasn't even dead! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacki Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 36 minutes ago, Major Isewater said: The dead cat bounce is a bit of a myth if you ask supporters of Brum or Palace. Not if you ask supporters of Hull or Swansea though.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big C Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 To be honest I don't particularly care what Rowett's win ratio is. He was once in charge in a team that lost 7-1 to Rovers that's more than enough in my book to give him a wide berth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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