Crosses into box...

[spudski]

....for me, this is where we have lost our 'identity'...and why we are less effective.

We've become a side this season where we are more reliant on crosses into the box when on the offensive.

It's very ineffective. Easy to defend against and leads us wide open to counter attack and being out of position.

We've gone from playing attractive and effective inter passing in front of the box and breaking the lines, to 50/50 balls into a box, where it's often down to luck what's going to happen next.

What occured to me is...is this the style or type of football that LJ actually wants, or is it being asked of from above?

It just doesn't seem like a LJ way of playing. It's not something he's done throughout his managerial career.

What is apparent...is that City through the ages always want to play with wide men and have played with loads of crosses into said box...regardless of manager.

It just screams something is not right.

Everyone knows how better we've played with more direct interplay around the box...instead of wide men crossing. 

Since Kent and Leko...Elliason now...Ashton getting a nudge from above?

All seems way too odd for me...other than that, LJ is losing it if he thinks that system is going to work with our playing staff.

[Roger Red Hat]

Yep, pretty basic stuff yesterday, awful league one stuff.

[pongo88]

Great observation @spudski.  The comparison between City’s attacks that always finished with a cross (and fizzled out) and Preston’s slick passing on the ground was striking

[Red Army 75]

Can’t argue with any of that . Our build up play is just so pedestrian and predictable. I actually thought hunt played well yesterday and was the only player who seemed to be crossing the ball. Is COD injured or has he shagged LJs wife. Should of come on yesterday. Bought Paterson on . When we were crying out for width. Everything is so congested 

[Kevin Brady]

28 minutes ago, Red Army 75 said:

Can’t argue with any of that . Our build up play is just so pedestrian and predictable. I actually thought hunt played well yesterday and was the only player who seemed to be crossing the ball. Is COD injured or has he shagged LJs wife. Should of come on yesterday. Bought Paterson on . When we were crying out for width. Everything is so congested 

A poster last week mentioned COD having lost confidence in LJ. We know he's still not signed a new deal. Watching Callum warm up yesterday, us old farts came to the same conclusion. He's definitely shagging Johnson's wife!

[JoeAman08]

What is funny is we lost most of our threats in the box to play that way. Reid was a bit more clever in the box. Djuric gone. No Flint to throw up front when we need a goal. I don’t mind crosses but it was the type of crosses that were the problem.

Seen lots of comments about Diedhiou mistiming his jumps but with those lofted crosses he had to out jump a couple massive central defenders, direct it on goal and generate all the power. It was a tough ask even though I don’t think he’d have ran in front of defenders for whipped or low crosses so a moot point maybe. 

All that said it was like LJ completely threw everything out the door and said just put everything on Fams head. Was very weird yesterday and was maybe my last shred of backing LJ gone. Done a great job and I can honestly say that. Despite the dire runs of winless streaks at times he has moved us up the table and got us out of being relegation favourites in the championship. Think he has done as much as he can now and I really feel someone else could get more out of this squad. I’d take 6-7 of our players over Preston ones yesterday individually but AN gets more from his players and is why they won imo. 

[1960maaan]

I think one of the problems (one of many) is how we play wingers. Be it stepping inside, or playing on their opposite sides they are not playing as traditional wingers.
For me , I like to see a winger bombing down the wing to cross from the byline.  It give forwards an added advantage of attacking the ball, running onto a cross rather than waiting for it. We play left footed players wide right and right wide left. Yeah it give an opportunity to cut in, and a chance for an overlap , but our crosses inevitably come from deeper when the winger take an easy option on his good foot. Plus it slows play down and means the forward is in front of the incoming cross and makes it hard to attack the ball.
I've not understood the recruitment, Watkins, Adelukin, Eliasson, Kent, Leko, Paterson , Cotterill , go back further and add Elliot Bennett. That is some list , approaching obsession.
Yet yesterday , we play without wingers..... odd. It does smack of muddied thinking. 

[Roe]

It was such a bizarre plan yesterday.  Trying to cross the ball to one man was about as pointless as it was easy for them to defend, not to mention trying to play a crossing game with probably our best two crossers (Eliasson and O'Dowda) sat on the bench.  Mental.

[Red Army 75]

With playing 352 you should have the width automatically. And crosses galore. Oh for a David Smith bombing down the with 

[Offside]

This is what concerns me as well. I am at a complete loss as to what type of football LJ is trying to get us to play. Yesterday we put in lots of crosses, all of which were ineffective. It was patently obvious early on that we were creating nothing and making life easy for the Preston defence. It doesn't suit any of our strikers' strengths either, so god knows why that's what we were doing. Then the substitutions were made in the second half (why not at half time?) and nothing seemed to change. 

It annoys me, just like how we seem to pass it around in our own half for the sake of passing, until we pass it into trouble and then lump it up to a striker who, even if he does win the ball, has no other one of our players near him to collect it.

[Jerseybean]

Great observations within this thread, particularly IMO from the OP and Offside. Over and above the points that have been made I’d add that the quality of our crossing is generally poor, in that it’s usually an aimless, lofted ball which is so easy to defend.

I am as confused as everyone else as to what our current preferred style of play is under LJ. 

 

[leadman]

crosses into areas instead of looking for the man, you can blame the strikers or the delivery, bit of both i suspect.

anyone noticed what a non event corners and free kicks into the box have become, just dont ever look like were going to score from them.

[Davefevs]

45 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

I think one of the problems (one of many) is how we play wingers. Be it stepping inside, or playing on their opposite sides they are not playing as traditional wingers.
For me , I like to see a winger bombing down the wing to cross from the byline.  It give forwards an added advantage of attacking the ball, running onto a cross rather than waiting for it. We play left footed players wide right and right wide left. Yeah it give an opportunity to cut in, and a chance for an overlap , but our crosses inevitably come from deeper when the winger take an easy option on his good foot. Plus it slows play down and means the forward is in front of the incoming cross and makes it hard to attack the ball.
I've not understood the recruitment, Watkins, Adelukin, Eliasson, Kent, Leko, Paterson , Cotterill , go back further and add Elliot Bennett. That is some list , approaching obsession.
Yet yesterday , we play without wingers..... odd. It does smack of muddied thinking. 

I liked Elliott Bennett, a winger asked by Cotts to play as a RWB when Fredericks went, and one of the few players Kodjia would pass to in the hope he might get it back!!

But I agree, it's one of my bug-bears. I don't necessarily think you have to have a big man to play correct-sided wingers, so doesn't mean Diedhiou must start.  Some of the best football we played with Gavin and Smith on their correct side had Bob Taylor and Iain Ferguson up front, too relatively smaller strikers.  But a good cross and good movement, either aerially or on the ground (especially a pull-back) doesn't need height.  How many headed goals did Owen score from Beckham crosses?

[spudski]

40 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I liked Elliott Bennett, a winger asked by Cotts to play as a RWB when Fredericks went, and one of the few players Kodjia would pass to in the hope he might get it back!!

But I agree, it's one of my bug-bears. I don't necessarily think you have to have a big man to play correct-sided wingers, so doesn't mean Diedhiou must start.  Some of the best football we played with Gavin and Smith on their correct side had Bob Taylor and Iain Ferguson up front, too relatively smaller strikers.  But a good cross and good movement, either aerially or on the ground (especially a pull-back) doesn't need height.  How many headed goals did Owen score from Beckham crosses?

I really don't think we have the personnel to play with 'traditional wingers Dave. Playing crosses into the box. Regardless of the type of cross.

I think we are effective with wide players...but not 'wingers'...drawing the opposition, creating width and space to move in to. We seem to play better when they come inside and play one twos' into the box.

Football has moved on so much, and defenders are so well organised, that 'traditional' wing play is pretty ineffective these days.

Think we will be screwed if we continue in the same vein.

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, 1960maaan said:

I think one of the problems (one of many) is how we play wingers. Be it stepping inside, or playing on their opposite sides they are not playing as traditional wingers.
For me , I like to see a winger bombing down the wing to cross from the byline.  It give forwards an added advantage of attacking the ball, running onto a cross rather than waiting for it. We play left footed players wide right and right wide left. Yeah it give an opportunity to cut in, and a chance for an overlap , but our crosses inevitably come from deeper when the winger take an easy option on his good foot. Plus it slows play down and means the forward is in front of the incoming cross and makes it hard to attack the ball.
I've not understood the recruitment, Watkins, Adelukin, Eliasson, Kent, Leko, Paterson , Cotterill , go back further and add Elliot Bennett. That is some list , approaching obsession.
Yet yesterday , we play without wingers..... odd. It does smack of muddied thinking. 

Traditional wingers frequently are not faring well in  modern football. Systems mean they frequently cannot go 1v1, and  a means of overcoming this is by inverting wide players so they attack defenders weaker defensive foot by cutting inside. A inswing cross is as hard to defend as an out swinging ball and easier to deliver because widemen cannot get to the byline so often.

This is why attacking full backs are so in demand … Its where the space is to take advantage of, and by joining in overloads can be created … There is a point there alongside the opening poster post - breaking lines via interplay v crossing it which is an inefficient means of creating opportunity.

In the case of City …  What are City's wide players crossing at? Are they outstanding at getting on the end of the ball, above average or something else? If its average and worse its a really inefficient means of creating opportunity.

[REDOXO]

2 hours ago, Roger Red Hat said:

Yep, pretty basic stuff yesterday, awful league one stuff.

League One....Wilbo scored over 20 goals most from crosses in league 1

That was even pub standard crossing....Utter garbage of the lowest standard for their 30k a week!

[1960maaan]

2 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Traditional wingers frequently are not faring well in  modern football. Systems mean they frequently cannot go 1v1, and  a means of overcoming this is by inverting wide players so they attack defenders weaker defensive foot by cutting inside. A inswing cross is as hard to defend as an out swinging ball and easier to deliver because widemen cannot get to the byline so often.

This is why attacking full backs are so in demand … Its where the space is to take advantage of, and by joining in overloads can be created … There is a point there alongside the opening poster post - breaking lines via interplay v crossing it which is an inefficient means of creating opportunity.

In the case of City …  What are City's wide players crossing at? Are they outstanding at getting on the end of the ball, above average or something else? If its average and worse its a really inefficient means of creating opportunity.

I get that and agree, but. Eliasson is in the side as his delivery is good, but he ends up crossing from deeper and usually when he cuts onto his favoured foot. If he got to the byline and crossed there would be an opportunity for (hopefully) on rushing support from midfield.
Man City cross from the byline a fair bit, seems to work for them. Sane , Sterling , Silva , Gundogan , Silva they all try to get to the byline and cross/pass to players supporting, not necessarily anyone good in the air. It's more angles and causing problems, from the byline with players running towards goal anything can happen.

[WhistleHappy]

….crosses amounting to big fat zeros!  

Sometimes it feels like we just can't win.. 

[Simon79]

5 hours ago, spudski said:

....for me, this is where we have lost our 'identity'...and why we are less effective.

We've become a side this season where we are more reliant on crosses into the box when on the offensive.

It's very ineffective. Easy to defend against and leads us wide open to counter attack and being out of position.

We've gone from playing attractive and effective inter passing in front of the box and breaking the lines, to 50/50 balls into a box, where it's often down to luck what's going to happen next.

What occured to me is...is this the style or type of football that LJ actually wants, or is it being asked of from above?

It just doesn't seem like a LJ way of playing. It's not something he's done throughout his managerial career.

What is apparent...is that City through the ages always want to play with wide men and have played with loads of crosses into said box...regardless of manager.

It just screams something is not right.

Everyone knows how better we've played with more direct interplay around the box...instead of wide men crossing. 

Since Kent and Leko...Elliason now...Ashton getting a nudge from above?

All seems way too odd for me...other than that, LJ is losing it if he thinks that system is going to work with our playing staff.

Totally agree with the breaking lines & interchanging comments. What bugged me more than anything yesterday, was not so much the crossing, but the movement. I don’t know how many times I screamed “front & far “, a fairly simple concept I learnt when I was about 12! Everything was reactionary, rather than anticipating & acting. COYR 

[Olé]

Agree with everything pointed out, and this has been going on for weeks. I don't think there is a specific directive for crosses @spudski, we've simply been reduced to it.

The issue for me is central midfield will not carry the ball any distance (see how Reading exploited this last week) so we've ended up with short, relatively meaningless passing in deep positions and then our only forward outlet is a long ball out to the flanks, at which point we simply don't have the numbers in advanced positions to do anything besides punt it at Diedhiou's head. The midfield is still 30 yards downfield watching from inside their own half. The distance between the lines is frightening.

Brentford away was the only time recently we actually had wingers and full backs in combinations so that we could get numbers forward around the box. Think I'm right in saying that was what established a period of possession and cross that we scored from. Since then, the last two games in particular, it is just long ball to wing and then cross to an isolated Diedhiou (not his game). It's virtually only Webster of all people who will run with the ball and allow us to shift in numbers up the field of play.

I do wonder if this is the Korey Smith impact - when he sits in at the back of midfield, the rest of them are more comfortable to play further forward. Similarly Korey more than anyone among our midfielders ACTUALLY RUNS WITH THE BALL. Rest of them are not. We're also seeing more and more now I hope how critical Bobby Reid was to making LJ's brand of football work. Created space and brought others into play. Weimann did that fantastically well too for a month during our only good form.

[REDOXO]

3 minutes ago, Olé said:

Agree with everything pointed out, and this has been going on for weeks. I don't think there is a specific directive for crosses @spudski, we've simply been reduced to it.

The issue for me is central midfield will not carry the ball any distance (see how Reading exploited this last week) so we've ended up with short, relatively meaningless passing in deep positions and then our only forward outlet is a long ball out to the flanks, at which point we simply don't have the numbers in advanced positions to do anything besides punt it at Diedhiou's head. The midfield is still 30 yards downfield watching from inside their own half. The distance between the lines is frightening.

Brentford away was the only time recently we actually had wingers and full backs in combinations so that we could get numbers forward around the box. Think I'm right in saying that was what established a period of possession and cross that we scored from. Since then, the last two games in particular, it is just long ball to wing and then cross to an isolated Diedhiou (not his game). It's virtually only Webster of all people who will run with the ball and allow us to shift in numbers up the field of play.

I do wonder if this is the Korey Smith impact - when he sits in at the back of midfield, the rest of them are more comfortable to play further forward. Similarly Korey more than anyone among our midfielders ACTUALLY RUNS WITH THE BALL. Rest of them are not. We're also seeing more and more now I hope how critical Bobby Reid was to making LJ's brand of football work. Created space and brought others into play. Weimann did that fantastically well too for a month during our only good form.

PLease do a match report @Olé

[Cowshed]

41 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

possession I get that and agree, but. Eliasson is in the side as his delivery is good, but he ends up crossing from deeper and usually when he cuts onto his favoured foot. If he got to the byline and crossed there would be an opportunity for (hopefully) on rushing support from midfield.
Man City cross from the byline a fair bit, seems to work for them. Sane , Sterling , Silva , Gundogan , Silva they all try to get to the byline and cross/pass to players supporting, not necessarily anyone good in the air. It's more angles and causing problems, from the byline with players running towards goal anything can happen.

What are the team crossing to?

Crossing is an inefficient means of creating opportunity. That is multiplied if a team has targets that are ineffectual.

In regards to Man City they work the ball through the thirds. Its managed possession as the team creates seeks to create numerical advantage, its all about multiple receivers and constant support of the football providing passing lines. Its very different to looking to primarily hit the box … One of the things Man City do is drive forward with the ball to release markers for passes and looking to create 2v1's .. Man City wide players are playing consistently through the half spaces where the wide players come inside … Its not wing play in a traditional sense. 

 

[spudski]

5 minutes ago, Olé said:

Agree with everything pointed out, and this has been going on for weeks. I don't think there is a specific directive for crosses @spudski, we've simply been reduced to it.

The issue for me is central midfield will not carry the ball any distance (see how Reading exploited this last week) so we've ended up with short, relatively meaningless passing in deep positions and then our only forward outlet is a long ball out to the flanks, at which point we simply don't have the numbers in advanced positions to do anything besides punt it at Diedhiou's head. The midfield is still 30 yards downfield watching from inside their own half. The distance between the lines is frightening.

Brentford away was the only time recently we actually had wingers and full backs in combinations so that we could get numbers forward around the box. Think I'm right in saying that was what established a period of possession and cross that we scored from. Since then, the last two games in particular, it is just long ball to wing and then cross to an isolated Diedhiou (not his game). It's virtually only Webster of all people who will run with the ball and allow us to shift in numbers up the field of play.

I do wonder if this is the Korey Smith impact - when he sits in at the back of midfield, the rest of them are more comfortable to play further forward. Similarly Korey more than anyone among our midfielders ACTUALLY RUNS WITH THE BALL. Rest of them are not. We're also seeing more and more now I hope how critical Bobby Reid was to making LJ's brand of football work. Created space and brought others into play. Weimann did that fantastically well too for a month during our only good form.

It's interesting mate...because when on form, we have players that are suited to LJ's game. Brownhill, Odowda, Pato, Weimann, Taylor. All energetic, full of movement and when on form are good at what LJ seemingly wants to do.

Strangely...they all seem below what's expected at this level.

When they are moving and creating space, it allowed the likes of Pack to pick that penetrating pass.

I've got no problem with our defenders...it's the rest of the team that seem below par.

It's such fine margins...Eliasson and Walsh for me have talent, but still lack in certain areas, and it kills us.

I think it's got to a point where certain players aren't trusting themselves, playing within themselves, not trusting others, and therefore not risking certain moves, for fear of being caught out.

It's endemic of our game...we don't risk anything until we go behind. Which is often too late.

Before we played with freedom, and trust.

I look at some of our players, and it's like they aren't trusting others to do their job properly, hence hesitating.

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

What are the team crossing to?

Crossing is an inefficient means of creating opportunity. That is multiplied if a team has targets that are ineffectual.

In regards to Man City they work the ball through the thirds. Its managed possession as the team creates seeks to create numerical advantage, its all about multiple receivers and constant support of the football providing passing lines. Its very different to looking to primarily hit the box … One of the things Man City do is drive forward with the ball to release markers for passes and looking to create 2v1's .. Man City wide players are playing consistently through the half spaces where the wide players come inside … Its not wing play in a traditional sense. 

 

Im not saying hump it in to the big bloke. Man City play with width and they get to the byline, quite often Sterling on the right and Sane on the left. Their movement and passing is far better obviously but the basic idea is the same, although it is a modern take the premise is similar . Better angles , defenders chasing back and facing their own goal and MF filling the box. 
I just think as COD and Eliasson have the potential to go either way, play them on their natural side so they naturally want to go outside and get them past the FB, angles and options can come from our FB's and MF joining . There isn't much of an argument  that crossing is inefficient , as so many go in and lead to so few goals. But, if those crosses are from better positions your odds would go up a bit. 

[Lympsham Red]

Something interesting I stumbled across pretty innocuously on the Bristol City YouTube page...Derrick Bonsu explaining City's gym routine, and he says at 1:16 in the video that "the manager wants to play a high pressing game", which is of course what we saw last season. Why then, on the pitch, are we seeing long hoof balls, crosses into the box that amount to nothing, and not the same kind of play we witnessed in 17/18? Is the blame on LJ? Is it the players? Do the players not fully believe in him and so don't carry out his style of play? Are our players this season simply not suited?

 

[Cowshed]

10 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

Im not saying hump it in to the big bloke. Man City play with width and they get to the byline, quite often Sterling on the right and Sane on the left. Their movement and passing is far better obviously but the basic idea is the same, although it is a modern take the premise is similar . Better angles , defenders chasing back and facing their own goal and MF filling the box. 
I just think as COD and Eliasson have the potential to go either way, play them on their natural side so they naturally want to go outside and get them past the FB, angles and options can come from our FB's and MF joining . There isn't much of an argument  that crossing is inefficient , as so many go in and lead to so few goals. But, if those crosses are from better positions your odds would go up a bit. 

The basic idea is not the same. Looking at specific contexts of play its clear Man City play entirely differently. Bristol City at times are playing a short (not actually that short) passing game which frequently goes direct, Man City play a overt short passing game and occasionally go long. Man City do not go to the by line quite often - statistically their team goes the other way far more with wide players going wide and high to create space inside to move into. Man City's wide players are used as receivers in a stepped formation which seeks to create constant overloads where their superior ability with long phases of possession and patience inevitably creates chances.

Sorry to sound like smarty pants there yes they cross it but the intent of Man City's play via its wide men is wildly different to Bristol City's or a Cardiff. 

[Trueredsupporter]

19 hours ago, spudski said:

....for me, this is where we have lost our 'identity'...and why we are less effective.

We've become a side this season where we are more reliant on crosses into the box when on the offensive.

It's very ineffective. Easy to defend against and leads us wide open to counter attack and being out of position.

We've gone from playing attractive and effective inter passing in front of the box and breaking the lines, to 50/50 balls into a box, where it's often down to luck what's going to happen next.

What occured to me is...is this the style or type of football that LJ actually wants, or is it being asked of from above?

It just doesn't seem like a LJ way of playing. It's not something he's done throughout his managerial career.

What is apparent...is that City through the ages always want to play with wide men and have played with loads of crosses into said box...regardless of manager.

It just screams something is not right.

Everyone knows how better we've played with more direct interplay around the box...instead of wide men crossing. 

Since Kent and Leko...Elliason now...Ashton getting a nudge from above?

All seems way too odd for me...other than that, LJ is losing it if he thinks that system is going to work with our playing staff.

Interesting but surely Lee Johnson  moved City away from this football last season? City really started to move away from lots of intertplay from feb onwards and in games v Leeds and Cardiff were going very long . that was very much 50/50 balls last season.

 

[Trueredsupporter]

17 hours ago, spudski said:

I really don't think we have the personnel to play with 'traditional wingers Dave. Playing crosses into the box. Regardless of the type of cross.

I think we are effective with wide players...but not 'wingers'...drawing the opposition, creating width and space to move in to. We seem to play better when they come inside and play one twos' into the box.

Football has moved on so much, and defenders are so well organised, that 'traditional' wing play is pretty ineffective these days.

Think we will be screwed if we continue in the same vein.

The squad looks unbalanced. what would you do with Famara?? Taylor and Weinnmann surely offer more play outside the box but goals?

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Thought about this and to me there's crosses and crosses.

Interplay which gets us near the box and then...low, drilled, pacy accurate yeah that's good and will cause problems.

With our personnel, wingers pelting to the byline in a 4-4-2, and it's not just a case of wrong players actually, agree with @spudski about defences being much better drilled now than they used to be and traditional wing play being less effective now.

Agreed with @Cowshed also- crosses are less than efficient method of scoring a goal these days at this level- attacking full backs give width, wideman- and it has to be the right type- cuts inside and creates space for creators. 

Think the best way to get the best out of our wingers- or more likely wide midfielders- is a 4-3-3/4-3-2-1 hybrid and in most cases, high crosses we should give a miss- have crosses sure but the low, drilled, pacy accurate stuff after good buildup play. The 4-3-3/4-3-2-1 will also guard against the counter, as will the 3 in central mid- will give a bit more time to filter back or margin for error in terms of closing the space. Traditional wingers though in some our current guises as spudski rightly said leave us wide open to the counter.

[Judda]

On 11/11/2018 at 14:01, spudski said:

....for me, this is where we have lost our 'identity'...and why we are less effective.

We've become a side this season where we are more reliant on crosses into the box when on the offensive.

It's very ineffective. Easy to defend against and leads us wide open to counter attack and being out of position.

We've gone from playing attractive and effective inter passing in front of the box and breaking the lines, to 50/50 balls into a box, where it's often down to luck what's going to happen next.

What occured to me is...is this the style or type of football that LJ actually wants, or is it being asked of from above?

It just doesn't seem like a LJ way of playing. It's not something he's done throughout his managerial career.

What is apparent...is that City through the ages always want to play with wide men and have played with loads of crosses into said box...regardless of manager.

It just screams something is not right.

Everyone knows how better we've played with more direct interplay around the box...instead of wide men crossing. 

Since Kent and Leko...Elliason now...Ashton getting a nudge from above?

All seems way too odd for me...other than that, LJ is losing it if he thinks that system is going to work with our playing staff.

Especially with a cart horse up front who can't read the flight of the ball and attack it...