Stick or twist in January

[Davefevs]

@SX227 @Mr Popodopolous - I really like Hogan and Johansen.

LJ needs to make his mind up quickly on two things:

1. is he gonna stick to his 4141/4411, and therefore recruit towards this?
2. is he hell-bent on Diedhiou as the “1”?

That will influence the window massively.

Re 1. I have no issues with one up top, it's about the fluidity of the players around them

Re 2. There is a common thought that if you play “1” up top, it has to be a big one.  I think Reid showed that’s not the case last season, but you can’t play back to front if you’re gonna go small.  Having said that Diedhiou is big, but not a target-man / hold-up man.

Dilemmas for us, the average fan.

The men inside the club....MA, SL, etc....should be 100% clear.

[Shtanley]

@Davefevs Think Diedhiou being the one is negatively impacting us less than having Paterson as the 10.

[RedM]

7 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I think the whole Scouting network needs upgrading tbh. Not replacing as such, that can be debated but definitely quality and quantity needs to be added to it I feel.

That second bit seems a pretty good plan for sure- having a say in the style of play working with LJ or any hypothetical replacement- the club needs a joined up philosophy at all levels- not just youth but first team and recruitment too.

@RedM I've tracked it a bit in tracing our decline last season- painful work! Anyway Fulham had already started to kick into gear by the time Mitrovic helped. Of course he took them up a notch or several I'm sure but 19 pts from 7 games? Fantastic foundation for him to go into and help finish. They were thumping a few sides as well in that little surge pre-Mitrovic. Actually took him 4 games to get his first goal there (vs us, typically)!

Interesting. I’ll hold my hand up and admit I don’t know many of the facts, but to me, an outsider, he certainly seemed at the time to lift them up the table, however as you say the facts don’t point to him alone.

Perhaps it was as much a psychological boost as much as anything? The other players believed the club were investing as it was possible, a bit like when we signed Tomlin on loan, a real statement of intent. Last season we got in a player who possibly the players hadn’t heard of with bundles of issues, not very stable was it, and a young kid from Liverpool who thought he was the real deal. No wonder our players balked at their replacements. 

It’s a hard thing to bring someone in mid season, but you really have to get it right as we all see what happens if it’s not done with due diligence.

[bs20ciderarmy]

23 hours ago, Barney red said:

Agree don't see anything at the club being better than what we currently have. The more I think about it the centre midfielder is most important as sooner or later pack or Brownhill will completely run out of steam with the minutes they are playing. Problem is getting one with our restricted budget.

Pack and brownhill both cost peanuts... they are around but unless he cost’s 10 mill let’s have a melt down.

[Cowshed]

44 minutes ago, RedM said:

Interesting. I’ll hold my hand up and admit I don’t know many of the facts, but to me, an outsider, he certainly seemed at the time to lift them up the table, however as you say the facts don’t point to him alone.

Perhaps it was as much a psychological boost as much as anything? The other players believed the club were investing as it was possible, a bit like when we signed Tomlin on loan, a real statement of intent. Last season we got in a player who possibly the players hadn’t heard of with bundles of issues, not very stable was it, and a young kid from Liverpool who thought he was the real deal. No wonder our players balked at their replacements. 

It’s a hard thing to bring someone in mid season, but you really have to get it right as we all see what happens if it’s not done with due diligence.

@Mr Popodopolous mentioned foundation. Look at how Fulham played and the qualities Mitrovic brought with him. Its a Marriage where the two sides key qualities work together. Mitrovic undoubted ability saw him playing frequently dropping off and receiving to feet because that is where Fulham played. Fulham played off and with Mitrovic.

In Bristol Citys case the foundation was being altered and unstable. The players key qualities v team need?

There is a psychological element to this. I did post along the lines of that last season …"So we are changing it this week again  and how the **** will we play with that" … Players will at the very least think that.

Its easier to bring in a player any time, not just mid season when the team has a defined approach to its football. 

[Davefevs]

7 hours ago, Shtanley said:

@Davefevs Think Diedhiou being the one is negatively impacting us less than having Paterson as the 10.

I think Pato has played a bit better of late...but in his favourite position he’s still not delivering enough for me.  Stats will tell me he’s started the last 7 games in that position and scored 2 with 1 assist.  That is ok from a numbers point of view, so a bit of a contradiction to my thoughts.

Both aren’t doing enough for me overall....and yet in that same 7 games, Fam has 3 goals and 1 assist.

What do others think?

[spudski]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think Pato has played a bit better of late...but in his favourite position he’s still not delivering enough for me.  Stats will tell me he’s started the last 7 games in that position and scored 2 with 1 assist.  That is ok from a numbers point of view, so a bit of a contradiction to my thoughts.

Both aren’t doing enough for me overall....and yet in that same 7 games, Fam has 3 goals and 1 assist.

What do others think?

My biggest worry is that we have spent relatively big on Famara and we are stuck with him.

He isn't consistent enough and brings elements to our game that I don't like.

We are so wasteful in the final third. 

A lot of it down to him. Either missed opportunities, poor movement, fluidity in movement breaking down when it goes to him. Or us looking to cross to him.

He imo, is the main reason why we are so wasteful in the final third.

Like the bloke and he trys, but not consistent enough and his 'style of play's isn't condusive to flowing attacking football imo.

We need someone strong with movement who can control the ball, and be able to pass fast and accurately with one touch.

What we see is a man standing his ground, backing into players, fighting with himself, falling over looking for freekicks.

He very rarely wins anything cleanly. It's all laboured and robust with little end product. He's so frustrating to watch. More akin to a league 2 striker 10 years ago.

He'd actually be a decent defender imo.

Unfortunately I think everything going forward is going to be centered around him.

[barneyrubble]

14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think Pato has played a bit better of late...but in his favourite position he’s still not delivering enough for me.  Stats will tell me he’s started the last 7 games in that position and scored 2 with 1 assist.  That is ok from a numbers point of view, so a bit of a contradiction to my thoughts.

Both aren’t doing enough for me overall....and yet in that same 7 games, Fam has 3 goals and 1 assist.

What do others 

Think the problem is that others have to cover his defensive duties . Either fam has to chase down or one of the midfield gets drawn out to close down. Also when in possession think he is too lightweight very easily knocked off ball.

On another point think with how strong our central defence is we could release our holding midfielder more.

[Olé]

10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

hopefully this is up to date

Awesome spreadsheet, just stared at it for a full hour. It really is "his squad" isn't it. His dad used to talk about players like "golf clubs" and having different ones in your bag. I think LJ has used that phrase too. Looking at the list of attacking players we have, he really hasn't recruited that way. Too many similar forwards who are not blessed with presence but can drift deep or play wide. His famous "busy bee" obsession. Yet Bobby is the only one where it has really clicked. And it's no as though any of them play with real pace either.

p.s. should Eisa have SUD by his name? 

[RedM]

46 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think Pato has played a bit better of late...but in his favourite position he’s still not delivering enough for me.  Stats will tell me he’s started the last 7 games in that position and scored 2 with 1 assist.  That is ok from a numbers point of view, so a bit of a contradiction to my thoughts.

Both aren’t doing enough for me overall....and yet in that same 7 games, Fam has 3 goals and 1 assist.

What do others think?

I think Pato was subject to a lot of criticism, and rightly so. He picked up and improved his game, probably because he was in his favoured position as you say. Unfortunately Weimann is now in his unflavoured position though, but that’s another debate I guess. I’m wondering if Pato will keep this effort up, he strikes me as having weathered the storm he will get comfy again. 

[Davefevs]

33 minutes ago, Barney red said:

Think the problem is that others have to cover his defensive duties . Either fam has to chase down or one of the midfield gets drawn out to close down. Also when in possession think he is too lightweight very easily knocked off ball.

On another point think with how strong our central defence is we could release our holding midfielder more.

Really good point Barney. So although their tangible output is decent(ish) they are a drain elsewhere. 

5 minutes ago, Olé said:

Awesome spreadsheet, just stared at it for a full hour. It really is "his squad" isn't it. His dad used to talk about players like "golf clubs" and having different ones in your bag. I think LJ has used that phrase too. Looking at the list of attacking players we have, he really hasn't recruited that way. Too many similar forwards who are not blessed with presence but can drift deep or play wide. His famous "busy bee" obsession. Yet Bobby is the only one where it has really clicked. And it's no as though any of them play with real pace either.

p.s. should Eisa have SUD by his name? 

No, hasn’t represented them.....yet!

[reddoh]

22 hours ago, RedM said:

Yesterday it suddenly dawned on me what we were doing this season, I have the answer, seriously.

SL a couple of years ago I think stated we wanted to emulate Reading, we even brought in Coppell and a couple of their ex players. Well we know how that went.

Then there were mumblings about us ‘doing a Bournemouth’, small unfancued team with young up and coming Manager. Work in progress.

Now I honestly feel this seasons wannabe team is...Fulham. Fulham were 11th this time last season, ( I was told this, haven’t checked), they made one fantastic loan in January and got themselves promoted from almost nowhere. They bought in Mitrovic and he almost singlehandedly got them up there. 

All LJ has to do is find our Mitrovic.

RedM you are unique, had to bing it as wasn't sure if it was my stupidity or your typo, results unfancied or did you really really mean "unfancued" really? I clicked yes yours was the only result, my cap is well and truly doffed.

Have a great New Year.

PS for anyone else who decides to search there will now be two results and if quoted More results will appear so don't bother.

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

My biggest worry is that we have spent relatively big on Famara and we are stuck with him.

He isn't consistent enough and brings elements to our game that I don't like.

We are so wasteful in the final third. 

A lot of it down to him. Either missed opportunities, poor movement, fluidity in movement breaking down when it goes to him. Or us looking to cross to him.

He imo, is the main reason why we are so wasteful in the final third.

Like the bloke and he trys, but not consistent enough and his 'style of play's isn't condusive to flowing attacking football imo.

We need someone strong with movement who can control the ball, and be able to pass fast and accurately with one touch.

What we see is a man standing his ground, backing into players, fighting with himself, falling over looking for freekicks.

He very rarely wins anything cleanly. It's all laboured and robust with little end product. He's so frustrating to watch. More akin to a league 2 striker 10 years ago.

He'd actually be a decent defender imo.

Unfortunately I think everything going forward is going to be centered around him.

FD is a very good player and more than capable to get twenty goals a season at this level.

 What niggles away at me is the fact that he isn’t the only player , by a long way , to be underperforming, why ? 

We just see glimpses of the skills that many of these lads have and do not seem to ever see their potential fulfilled.

Brownhill , O’Dowda, Elliasson, Weimann... the list is very long.

The players who are playing at their best ;

Maenpaa, Kalas, Webster but after that I’m pushed to make an argument for any other. 

[Olé]

41 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

No, hasn’t represented them.....yet!

Pisano has represented the Azzurri?  

[Davefevs]

27 minutes ago, Olé said:

Pisano has represented the Azzurri?  

Okay, schmokay, Eisa could play for England 

[Cowshed]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

My biggest worry is that we have spent relatively big on Famara and we are stuck with him.

He isn't consistent enough and brings elements to our game that I don't like.

We are so wasteful in the final third. 

A lot of it down to him. Either missed opportunities, poor movement, fluidity in movement breaking down when it goes to him. Or us looking to cross to him.

He imo, is the main reason why we are so wasteful in the final third.

Like the bloke and he trys, but not consistent enough and his 'style of play's isn't condusive to flowing attacking football imo.

We need someone strong with movement who can control the ball, and be able to pass fast and accurately with one touch.

What we see is a man standing his ground, backing into players, fighting with himself, falling over looking for freekicks.

He very rarely wins anything cleanly. It's all laboured and robust with little end product. He's so frustrating to watch. More akin to a league 2 striker 10 years ago.

He'd actually be a decent defender imo.

Unfortunately I think everything going forward is going to be centered around him.

A case of its got to work instead of does it work.

A huge emphasis is being centred around this one player and was last season to the teams detriment. Great goal scorers have had to add more to their game to meet the altering challenges of modern football. Famara who is not great should be doing likewise. He is limited and breath … A tad lazy. 

[spudski]

4 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

FD is a very good player and more than capable to get twenty goals a season at this level.

 What niggles away at me is the fact that he isn’t the only player , by a long way , to be underperforming, why ? 

We just see glimpses of the skills that many of these lads have and do not seem to ever see their potential fulfilled.

Brownhill , O’Dowda, Elliasson, Weimann... the list is very long.

The players who are playing at their best ;

Maenpaa, Kalas, Webster but after that I’m pushed to make an argument for any other. 

As I said Major... inconsistent.

He's shown what he can do, but it's occasionally. 

We need someone doing it week in week out.

As Cowshed alluded to...we are building around him.

When you build around someone that is so inconsistent it isn't going to work.

Stats show that we are energetically wasteful. You can see it with our eyes too.

We get in good positions then waste them.

 

[1960maaan]

27 minutes ago, spudski said:

As I said Major... inconsistent.

He's shown what he can do, but it's occasionally. 

I'd love to know the reason though, I really think he can do it.
When he first got back in the team , he seemed to be trying too hard or doing too much.
Then he scored a few, but he looked clumsy. Move to the Norwich game and he was at it from the kick off, great touch and movement. Fast forward to Brentford and Rotherham, not as bad as some have said , but not as good as he has been. The thing is he has absolutely no support and very little service. I think it was Brentford, he got the ball and ran at the defence, only for the only 2 City player near their half to run away from him, leaving Fam surrounded by 4 players and no pass on. So when he lost it all you heard was "Diedhiou , you're shit !" . I think if we kept Djuric he would be far more suited to the way we are playing (hard to call it a style of play).  I feel sorry for Fam, he is what he is, and Harry Kane would struggle to look good with the service out strikers have to deal with.

[bcfc01]

34 minutes ago, spudski said:

As I said Major... inconsistent.

He's shown what he can do, but it's occasionally. 

We need someone doing it week in week out.

As Cowshed alluded to...we are building around him.

When you build around someone that is so inconsistent it isn't going to work.

Stats show that we are energetically wasteful. You can see it with our eyes too.

We get in good positions then waste them.

 

I think the waste in the final third is partly down to the lack of movement from Diedhiou.

There were a couple of decent crosses against Rotherham where he was on his heels again - no run across the box to the near post, no attempt to get in front of his marker, stuck at the back waiting for it to be plonked on his nut.

The one time he did so was from a first half corner from COD which resulted in a good save on the line from their keeper.

The one time he did so against Birmingham, he scored.

He can make those runs, but he seldom does.

[The Coach]

I would be surprised if Johnson gets any more money to spend in this coming window. In Lansdowns eyes, he's had more than enough to spend to challenge for the top 6 (to which we know is Lansdowns expectations this season). If Johnson fails to get us into the top 6. In my view, I believe Lansdown will part company with Johnson.

[exAtyeoMax]

Who of our current squad would you build the team around instead of Fammy?

As others have said previously and I was thinking after the Rotherham game, it doesn't seem to be working at the moment. We look too disjointed

[bcfc01]

12 minutes ago, Red_Wizard said:

I would be surprised if Johnson gets any more money to spend in this coming window. In Lansdowns eyes, he's had more than enough to spend to challenge for the top 6 (to which we know is Lansdowns expectations this season). If Johnson fails to get us into the top 6. In my view, I believe Lansdown will part company with Johnson.

Doubtful.

Top 6 was a sound bite for the supporters more than an expectation from SL imo.

Finishing top 6 would be a welcome surprise for everyone I would think 

If we are around 9th - 12th then it is 100% that LJ will be around for next season as I see it. Anything less than that and he may be under pressure for the start of next season imo.

 

[exAtyeoMax]

6 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

Doubtful.

Top 6 was a sound bite for the supporters more than an expectation from SL imo.

Finishing top 6 would be a welcome surprise for everyone I would think 

If we are around 9th - 12th then it is 100% that LJ will be around for next season as I see it. Anything less than that and he may be under pressure for the start of next season imo.

 

Not according to those he spoke to at Senior Reds earlier this month.

[bcfc01]

7 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Not according to those he spoke to at Senior Reds earlier this month.

Yeah, I read that.

But its still a case of "he would say that wouldn't he" imo.

Could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time 

[RedM]

7 hours ago, reddoh said:

RedM you are unique, had to bing it as wasn't sure if it was my stupidity or your typo, results unfancied or did you really really mean "unfancued" really? I clicked yes yours was the only result, my cap is well and truly doffed.

Have a great New Year.

PS for anyone else who decides to search there will now be two results and if quoted More results will appear so don't bother.

Most certainly a typo, I really don’t know what I’m writing half the time though 

[Allwaysred]

1 hour ago, Red_Wizard said:

I would be surprised if Johnson gets any more money to spend in this coming window. In Lansdowns eyes, he's had more than enough to spend to challenge for the top 6 (to which we know is Lansdowns expectations this season). If Johnson fails to get us into the top 6. In my view, I believe Lansdown will part company with Johnson.

Good post, I also don't think money will be made available in this window and at best will get another striker in onloan if that's what LJ feels we need. I do feel though nothing less than a top 6 next season and the big cheese will have to decide if he's the right man to take that next step. 

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, bcfc01 said:

I think the waste in the final third is partly down to the lack of movement from Diedhiou.

There were a couple of decent crosses against Rotherham where he was on his heels again - no run across the box to the near post, no attempt to get in front of his marker, stuck at the back waiting for it to be plonked on his nut.

The one time he did so was from a first half corner from COD which resulted in a good save on the line from their keeper.

The one time he did so against Birmingham, he scored.

He can make those runs, but he seldom does.

Good goalscorers make them instinctively.

I think the question I asked on another thread is could we forego the concept of a target-man (which Fam isn’t suited to by the way), and go for a clever movement striker - someone like Hogan (not necessarily him).  He drags CBs around, is sharp in brain and feet.

Does Famara hold enough balls up back to goal as he should?  Nope.  In which case would we lose much playing someone else there?

Or is Fam playing for LJ to put him in the shop window?  Other teams will look favourably at his goals:game ratio.

[Mr Popodopolous]

15 hours ago, Barney red said:

Think the problem is that others have to cover his defensive duties . Either fam has to chase down or one of the midfield gets drawn out to close down. Also when in possession think he is too lightweight very easily knocked off ball.

On another point think with how strong our central defence is we could release our holding midfielder more.

That's one of the flaws of 4-2-3-1 unless you have a bona fide player who can play both '10' and in a central midfield 3 in certain phases...not a huge number of those about at Championship level. Exacerbated by the fact that a lot of sides in the Championship now play 4-3-3 or 3 central defenders say 3-4-3/3-5-2 even more so. That enables them to fill the centre and leaves us a bit exposed in certain phases with our current setup. This will put more pressure on Pack and leaves him in particular more vulnerable at certain times especially vs said sides or ones who press him heavily.

I'm not saying it's the sole reason but it certainly doesn't help IMO.

[real_bristol]

On 30/12/2018 at 02:57, pl00peh91 said:

Agreed - we aren’t good enough to get to the Premier League this season so let’s start developing next season’s team and see where that takes us. I’d settle for a finish between 13th and 7th if it means our younger players can get much needed competitive championship experience and enhance our prospects of a playoff push next season. 

Refreshing to read this. The fickleness of late has really concerned me. It seems like some of our fans want us promoted yesterday. It has to be one of the toughest leagues in the world to go up from and is (I think) the most lucrative. Top half has to be a success this season after 3 first team, prem standard players (arguably) were sold. 

Stick. Spend some money on coaching if necessary to prepare some of those lads that are having a whale of a time in the lower leagues scoring and assisting for fun.

[spudski]

14 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Good goalscorers make them instinctively.

I think the question I asked on another thread is could we forego the concept of a target-man (which Fam isn’t suited to by the way), and go for a clever movement striker - someone like Hogan (not necessarily him).  He drags CBs around, is sharp in brain and feet.

Does Famara hold enough balls up back to goal as he should?  Nope.  In which case would we lose much playing someone else there?

Or is Fam playing for LJ to put him in the shop window?  Other teams will look favourably at his goals:game ratio.

Spot on Dave...goalscorers at Famara's age make the right moves instinctively.

Famara doesn't... we've even had LJ saying they've been working with him to try and improve it. They shouldn't be having to do that...he should be at his prime.

You've only got to look at Taylor's movement by comparison...it's natural and instinctive. 

Taylor would be playing more imo, if he had a more reliable forward to play off of.

For me...Famara is holding us back.