Derby County

[Derby_Ram]

Finally some movement and more hope of a club next season although frustrating that any progress took until this late in the date. I'm angry that it's taken DCC seemingly coming up with a solution to get Kirchner back to the table as to me that can only mean MM not taking a hit + HMRC/taxpayers being shafted.

Maybe it's a fan-view, and a non football council tax payer would look at it differently, but I believe long-term the council would be better off dipping into coffers now and having the benefit of the club and what that brings to the local economy but that'll only be able to be truly understood years down the line if it happens. Totally understand someone with a wholly opposite view though.

I'm nowhere convinced Kirchner will end up our owner and he's not someone I'd choose based on character; but the EFL seemed not to have an issue when he completed the F+PP test last year according to local radio. Let's see.

I think it'll fall down if a condition of his bid is on -15 this season however more encouraging is a further few twitter conversations today on the post Mr P posted from Kieran Maguire last night. Kieran has seemingly confirmed -15 wouldn't be applied next year if 25p/£ isn't met as we' then have 3 years to pay 35%. Murky, not convinced its fair, but I'll take it although come 25/26 season when we start on -15 I may change my tune.

Finally looking forward to - shock horror - talking some actual football with you ahead of next week.

[Davefevs]

38 minutes ago, Derby_Ram said:

Finally some movement and more hope of a club next season although frustrating that any progress took until this late in the date. I'm angry that it's taken DCC seemingly coming up with a solution to get Kirchner back to the table as to me that can only mean MM not taking a hit + HMRC/taxpayers being shafted.

Maybe it's a fan-view, and a non football council tax payer would look at it differently, but I believe long-term the council would be better off dipping into coffers now and having the benefit of the club and what that brings to the local economy but that'll only be able to be truly understood years down the line if it happens. Totally understand someone with a wholly opposite view though.

I'm nowhere convinced Kirchner will end up our owner and he's not someone I'd choose based on character; but the EFL seemed not to have an issue when he completed the F+PP test last year according to local radio. Let's see.

I think it'll fall down if a condition of his bid is on -15 this season however more encouraging is a further few twitter conversations today on the post Mr P posted from Kieran Maguire last night. Kieran has seemingly confirmed -15 wouldn't be applied next year if 25p/£ isn't met as we' then have 3 years to pay 35%. Murky, not convinced its fair, but I'll take it although come 25/26 season when we start on -15 I may change my tune.

Finally looking forward to - shock horror - talking some actual football with you ahead of next week.

Until we get to see what the preferred bid actual is…it’s really difficult to ascertain what the future is.  When does the bid get taken to the EFL?

Still hugely intrigued how HMRC will see DCC’s proposal to buy PP, e.g. DCC can use people’s money to buy PP (little argument there), but CKDC can then rent it whilst not having settled a £28m tax debt.

[Derby_Ram]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

When does the bid get taken to the EFL?

Do keep up; imminently.

[REDOXO]

7 hours ago, billywedlock said:

But he keeps changing his username . It’s a moving “ ignore “  target . A real saddo . 

Really who has the numpty been in the past?

What a crushingly sad life! 

[Davefevs]

24 minutes ago, Derby_Ram said:

Do keep up; imminently.

[chinapig]

40 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Until we get to see what the preferred bid actual is…it’s really difficult to ascertain what the future is.  When does the bid get taken to the EFL?

Still hugely intrigued how HMRC will see DCC’s proposal to buy PP, e.g. DCC can use people’s money to buy PP (little argument there), but CKDC can then rent it whilst not having settled a £28m tax debt.

We'll have to see how it pans out but Quantuma's first duty is supposed to be to the creditors.

We could end up with a situation where the taxpayer gets shafted and the local council tax payer pays for the stadium. 

All in effect to benefit Mel Morris OBE, erstwhile hero to Derby fans, a business ambassador who screwed local businesses.

To them that hath it shall be given etc.

[Bristol Rob]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Until we get to see what the preferred bid actual is…it’s really difficult to ascertain what the future is.  When does the bid get taken to the EFL?

Still hugely intrigued how HMRC will see DCC’s proposal to buy PP, e.g. DCC can use people’s money to buy PP (little argument there), but CKDC can then rent it whilst not having settled a £28m tax debt.

Given that property prices have exploded in the last couple of years, and Mel had PP 'independently' valued at 80mil (or whatever it was), wouldn't HMRC be all over a sale at a figure far below that from a CGT* perspective?

*Or whatever the tax is on commercial properties.

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, Derby_Ram said:

Finally some movement and more hope of a club next season although frustrating that any progress took until this late in the date. I'm angry that it's taken DCC seemingly coming up with a solution to get Kirchner back to the table as to me that can only mean MM not taking a hit + HMRC/taxpayers being shafted.

Maybe it's a fan-view, and a non football council tax payer would look at it differently, but I believe long-term the council would be better off dipping into coffers now and having the benefit of the club and what that brings to the local economy but that'll only be able to be truly understood years down the line if it happens. Totally understand someone with a wholly opposite view though.

I'm nowhere convinced Kirchner will end up our owner and he's not someone I'd choose based on character; but the EFL seemed not to have an issue when he completed the F+PP test last year according to local radio. Let's see.

I think it'll fall down if a condition of his bid is on -15 this season however more encouraging is a further few twitter conversations today on the post Mr P posted from Kieran Maguire last night. Kieran has seemingly confirmed -15 wouldn't be applied next year if 25p/£ isn't met as we' then have 3 years to pay 35%. Murky, not convinced its fair, but I'll take it although come 25/26 season when we start on -15 I may change my tune.

Finally looking forward to - shock horror - talking some actual football with you ahead of next week.

I don't do Twitter but on today's Price of Football pod today he was clear that 15 points would be deducted if creditors did not get at least 25p in the £. Possibly recorded before what he said on Twitter?

Interestingly, he also said Ashley may still be hovering but is being blocked because Morris doesn't like him. It comes as no surprise to me if Morris is still pulling the strings.

[Silvio Dante]

4 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

Given that property prices have exploded in the last couple of years, and Mel had PP 'independently' valued at 80mil (or whatever it was), wouldn't HMRC be all over a sale at a figure far below that from a CGT* perspective?

*Or whatever the tax is on commercial properties.

Nope, because of how Commercial Property is valued the property price increase won’t have applied…and in actuality, it is totally plausible for it to have reduced.

Commercial Property tends to have two values - Vacant Possession Value (VPV) - exactly what it says on the tin, nobody in occupation - and a Yield Based Valuation (YBV). Pride Park, although having a relatively unique sector, will have a YBV the same as your local Tescos.

The YBV is a function of the rent, the lease term and the tenant quality (and how “good” the property is both in building and location quality but that more underpins VPV). So, if the same property is let to Tesco at £10k or John Smith at £20k, the value may be higher for Tesco even if the rents lower based on the surety of income.

Translating this to PP, since that £80m valuation the tenant quality (surety of income) has markedly reduced, meaning even if lease terms etc were unchanged, absent market yield moves (won’t really have happened for Stadia), then the value of the asset has gone down as it’s only income stream is less secure, so the yield increases and value goes down.

Generally, commercial valuations are harder to argue (unless outlandish) as they’re subjective. Will be even more difficult with PP as there won’t be local comparable assets.

Sorry, boring answer from someone who’s worked in commercial finance!

[Mr Popodopolous]

27 minutes ago, chinapig said:

We'll have to see how it pans out but Quantuma's first duty is supposed to be to the creditors.

We could end up with a situation where the taxpayer gets shafted and the local council tax payer pays for the stadium. 

All in effect to benefit Mel Morris OBE, erstwhile hero to Derby fans, a business ambassador who screwed local businesses.

To them that hath it shall be given etc.

Agreed for the most part although there are a range of ways to make such a transaction profitable to Derby City Council or whoever buys it, albeit these gains would be medium to long term.

A bigger issue is of course a) HMRC and b) Unsecured creditors- a lot of whom will be Derby fans and reasonably local I expect, think the amount Derby would like lopped off point a is 75%.

As an aside, did we know that Mel Morris may well have donated to the Tories in 2017? Or at least to Patrick McLoughlin. That said the size or regularity of donation isn't exactly one that would be associated with influence, not large enough or regular enough IMO.

[Derby_Ram]

21 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I don't do Twitter but on today's Price of Football pod today he was clear that 15 points would be deducted if creditors did not get at least 25p in the £. Possibly recorded before what he said on Twitter?

Interestingly, he also said Ashley may still be hovering but is being blocked because Morris doesn't like him. It comes as no surprise to me if Morris is still pulling the strings.

If creditors don't get at least 25% back then there will be another deduction (personal view is it should be 1pt per percentage point shy of 100% you are) but it doesn't automatically kick in next season.

We could turn around and say that we'll pay back more but over a longer period in which case the deduction won't be applied immediately, and only then if we then don't pay back 35%. We'd be under a strict business plan which you'd assume would make being competitive harder but we could start next year on zero. 

[Derby_Ram]

7 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

As an aside, did we know that Mel Morris may well have donated to the Tories in 2017? Or at least to Patrick McLoughlin. That said the size or regularity of donation isn't exactly one that would be associated with influence, not large enough or regular enough IMO.

Well known locally if not on a wider basis. Caused quite a rumpus a couple of months ago when it emerged one of the fans largely responsible for mobilising the fans and engaging MPs was Patrick's son and questions over whether he was doing that to deflect attention from MM.

He did call out MM - could have made for an interesting Sunday lunch with dad - but being an ex-advisor to10 Downing Street was useful in the campaign by knowing how to successfully engage the MPs and get a parliamentary question asked.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Derby_Ram said:

Well known locally if not on a wider basis. Caused quite a rumpus a couple of months ago when it emerged one of the fans largely responsible for mobilising the fans and engaging MPs was Patrick's son and questions over whether he was doing that to deflect attention from MM.

He did call out MM - could have made for an interesting Sunday lunch with dad - but being an ex-advisor to10 Downing Street was useful in the campaign by knowing how to successfully engage the MPs and get a parliamentary question asked.

Yeah saw something about that on Twitter the bit about the son of Patrick McLoughlin although didn't really pay a lot of attention. The donation is interesting as although it's obvious Mel Morris is a Tory, it seems neither big enough or long lasting enough/recurring enough for a long term influence. All the same it seems raiseable in Parliament IMO, donation by Mel, stadium of Mel POTENTIALLY sold to the Council given the HMRC issue- why he made the donation is unclear as the seat has been a pretty safe Tory one since inception and before that was West Derbyshire (as per Wiki) and Tory since 1950 so it's hardly likely McLoughlin loses in 2017.

Definitely could have and yes that side of it would have helped agreed- networking and knowhow all that.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Derby_Ram said:

If creditors don't get at least 25% back then there will be another deduction (personal view is it should be 1pt per percentage point shy of 100% you are) but it doesn't automatically kick in next season.

We could turn around and say that we'll pay back more but over a longer period in which case the deduction won't be applied immediately, and only then if we then don't pay back 35%. We'd be under a strict business plan which you'd assume would make being competitive harder but we could start next year on zero. 

From a points deduction point of view, if you agree to that the settlement is  25% immediately or 35% over 3 years, you are deemed to have met the EFL insolvency policy, I.e. no points deduction at all, nor in the future, it’s not deferred.  Of course in the 3 year example, I don’t know what the penalty is for failing to meet the obligation, that’s a different kettle of fish.

What KM is saying, whatever agreement is made to come out of administration if it doesn’t meet the EFL 25% / 35% over 3 years, you will be hit with a 15 point penalty and under “sporting sanction” it will be applied next season.

So in summary:

- pass the EFL insolvency rules - 0 points deduction

- fail to meet it - 15 points applied next season (assumes you don’t get enough points this season to beat relegation).

Happy to be challenged.

[phantom]

17 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Out of interest, what did I do / post to turn you from being all “pally” with me to becoming all passive aggressive and trolling my posts?

 

15 hours ago, REDOXO said:

 Thats why the ignore button exists fella. It works great providing people don’t quote him! 

and why we have a PM system, my guess is someone gets rattled for claiming to be ITK when blatantly they know F all

10 hours ago, billywedlock said:

But he keeps changing his username . It’s a moving “ ignore “  target . A real saddo . 

But you are ignoring the user not the username

[phantom]

4 hours ago, Derby_Ram said:

Finally looking forward to - shock horror - talking some actual football with you ahead of next week.

We're all looking forward to mathematically relegating you that afternoon   assuming that you survive that long 

[phantom]

17 hours ago, Waconda said:

What are you going to do when this is sorted in the next few days ?

Big hole in your life.

An odd post, as there are two other people who this would apply to but @Davefevs is not one of those that has invested a lot of time and knowledge into this thread

[REDOXO]

16 minutes ago, phantom said:

 

and why we have a PM system, my guess is someone gets rattled for claiming to be ITK when blatantly they know F all

But you are ignoring the user not the username

Agh that is something most didn't realize I reckon. So a name change makes no difference.
 

 But I guess you can rejoin as a new user from a different device and just be a brand new knob? 
 

The PM system is great, but would never use it with a troll or a half wit!
 

Since I have made really good use of the ignore button this place raises my blood pressure so much less, as I choose the people I interact with carefully!

I note your response to the poster in question and his needless comment! 

 

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by REDOXO

[Derby_Ram]

21 minutes ago, phantom said:

We're all looking forward to mathematically relegating you that afternoon   assuming that you survive that long 

I think your confidence is misplaced. QPR on Easter Monday is the holder of the lucky ticket for that one. 

In reality though if it does reach the 23rd we both know it'll be Reading getting the required points as opposed to you winning that'll see us go relegated that day. Chrissy Martin just wouldn't allow it

[REDOXO]

38 minutes ago, Derby_Ram said:

I think your confidence is misplaced. QPR on Easter Monday is the holder of the lucky ticket for that one. 

In reality though if it does reach the 23rd we both know it'll be Reading getting the required points as opposed to you winning that'll see us go relegated that day. Chrissy Martin just wouldn't allow it

Andi Weimann would be ok with it I reckon!

[Mr Popodopolous]

58 minutes ago, Derby_Ram said:

I think your confidence is misplaced. QPR on Easter Monday is the holder of the lucky ticket for that one. 

In reality though if it does reach the 23rd we both know it'll be Reading getting the required points as opposed to you winning that'll see us go relegated that day. Chrissy Martin just wouldn't allow it

There is also another element which I have alluded to...NP, well one report suggested his time at Derby was so bad it nearly turned him off football.

Wonder if he would send them out fired up big if we could mathematically relegate Derby on that day.

Extract from an article by Matt Lawton last year.

Quote

Pearson blames experiences with Derby and Morris for almost making him quit football for good

I think he'd have no issue?

Edited April 7, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Derby_Ram]

I don't think Pearson would have an issue at all. My issue on that would be from your perspective as fans .

If he can turn around and get the players all fired up to come flying out the traps in a pretty much meaningless game to them, against a better team(!!), with a cracking home record, why hasn't he been doing it all year? Excluding points penalties I make it you'd be 3 points clear of the relegation zone and it would be a huge game.

Obviously an element of tongue-in-cheek in that comment, and I'm intrigued to see how our players cope with the last month as its been a draining year all round the club, but I do think there'd be valid question marks if you're suddenly on fire come the 23rd.

[REDOXO]

1 hour ago, Derby_Ram said:

I don't think Pearson would have an issue at all. My issue on that would be from your perspective as fans .

If he can turn around and get the players all fired up to come flying out the traps in a pretty much meaningless game to them, against a better team(!!), with a cracking home record, why hasn't he been doing it all year? Excluding points penalties I make it you'd be 3 points clear of the relegation zone and it would be a huge game.

Obviously an element of tongue-in-cheek in that comment, and I'm intrigued to see how our players cope with the last month as its been a draining year all round the club, but I do think there'd be valid question marks if you're suddenly on fire come the 23rd.

City have had two horror years with injuries, but it has had upside under Pearson. He’s played various kids from the academy a couple of youngster he brought in and now seems to have made a first teamer out of a late to the Game Center back. Couple that with Weimann who has had a phenomenal season, there is a lot more upside than some of the numpties here will have you believe. 

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, Derby_Ram said:

I don't think Pearson would have an issue at all. My issue on that would be from your perspective as fans .

If he can turn around and get the players all fired up to come flying out the traps in a pretty much meaningless game to them, against a better team(!!), with a cracking home record, why hasn't he been doing it all year? Excluding points penalties I make it you'd be 3 points clear of the relegation zone and it would be a huge game.

Obviously an element of tongue-in-cheek in that comment, and I'm intrigued to see how our players cope with the last month as its been a draining year all round the club, but I do think there'd be valid question marks if you're suddenly on fire come the 23rd.

Oh come now, no one is going to be "all fired up" or "on fire". It's going to be a middling end of season run out between two teams that just want the season to end. We'll be safe in 17th, with nothing to play for, and you'll already be planning  your trips to Cheltenham, Cambridge, and Portsmouth.

Let's all just plan for a few ciders in the sun, get the St Georges flags out, and have a lovely old celebration of average football being played out in the dog days of the season.

It's going to be my first visit to PP and it may well be many years until the opportunity comes again, so I plan on enjoying it.

[Hxj]

5 hours ago, Derby_Ram said:

If creditors don't get at least 25% back then there will be another deduction (personal view is it should be 1pt per percentage point shy of 100% you are) but it doesn't automatically kick in next season.

We could turn around and say that we'll pay back more but over a longer period in which case the deduction won't be applied immediately, and only then if we then don't pay back 35%. We'd be under a strict business plan which you'd assume would make being competitive harder but we could start next year on zero. 

Trouble is Administrations generally don't work like that.

Exits from Administration are usually Dissolution/Liquidation or a CVA.  A CVA is a contractual arrangement so it will be obvious from the outset whether or not the 25% or 35% rules are to be met.  Three year CVAs are unusual as to be blunt creditors generally want whatever they can get up front.

The usual transactions are that a NewCo acquires all the assets of OldCo in exchange for sufficient funds to meet the immediate CVA.   OldCo pays out the CVA and then Liquidates.  The EFL are happy to transfer the Golden Share in such an arrangement provided their conditions regarding Football Creditors and Unsecured Creditors are met.

[Davefevs]

The plot thicketh 

Conspiracy theory: working with Ashley, pull out at last minute, leaving Ashley (who Morris won’t want to own DC) as the only option.

[Davefevs]

And in flipside:

 

[Major Isewater]

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The plot thicketh 

Conspiracy theory: working with Ashley, pull out at last minute, leaving Ashley (who Morris won’t want to own DC) as the only option.

It would be funny for me as my youngest son is a Newcastle fan ( glory hunter since the Keegan days! ) and couldn’t wait to see the back of Ashley. 
My eldest son was born in Derby , guess who he supports? 
 

[Silvio Dante]

20 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

It would be funny for me as my youngest son is a Newcastle fan ( glory hunter since the Keegan days! ) and couldn’t wait to see the back of Ashley. 
My eldest son was born in Derby , guess who he supports? 
 

Is it Stevenage?

[chinapig]

30 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The plot thicketh 

Conspiracy theory: working with Ashley, pull out at last minute, leaving Ashley (who Morris won’t want to own DC) as the only option.

Didn't somebody buy Palace then sell to Simon Jordan the next day?

But presumably Craig Hope is just another member of the global conspiracy against the plucky underdogs so can be disregarded.