Burnley away match thread

[Packman]

28 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Though this distribution was bloody excellent, and he was better commanding his box second half (after you’d written this).

Yeah he was definitely better second half apart from maybe the Williams chance that was cleared off the line. I thought taking Conway off actually helped him, as Tommy just sat on top of him and got in his way from all the set pieces first half. Better team won though in the end, no complaints.

[ExiledAjax]

33 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

19 games.

Cheers. So he's 100% getting at least one more yellow between now and then. Will likely miss a game somewhere.

[Davefevs]

4 hours ago, BLRed said:

Utterly disappointing today. Too much standing off and backing away, wasting the little possession we have had. No game intelligence used (why are we floating in crosses to a big keeper that always plays high and comes for every ball?)

Didnt expect anything but at least a positive display.

sidenote: James should be benched as is not good enough and too slow.

Why is it always a one sided argument…ie what City did wrong.  Isn’t it obvious from watching his technically excellent (and in many cases superior)  they were in pretty much every position bar their CBs today?  And those players worked doubly hard (unlike lazy Norwich) to force that technical advantage home.

We tweaked our set up after 15-20 minutes with Weimann dropping into LM to help Scott and James and although they still had loads of possession it was mainly in front of us.  We deserve a bit of credit for that.  We got our goal, and ended the half quite brightly, Burnley fans boo’ing them.

Teams don’t just drop off….in most cases they get forced back.  When you’re fighting for scraps of possession, it’s really difficult to get your patterns working.

So, was it utterly disappointing or positive….a bit confused by your opening sentence and the second para?

Footnote:  James had played well in his last two games.  Against Blackburn especially he was excellent, just out-performed by Scott!  He is good enough.  Ask Alex Scott who made reference to him last week.

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, The Swan and Cemetery said:

A day extra to prepare for a relatively short turnaround makes a decent difference. Thought we were more lacklustre than in previous games as a result. Didn’t play well, but kept plugging away and thought they were the best we’ve played so far this season, solid everywhere + some threat. They were really good on second balls, which is Prem sharp minds.  Goals were disappointing, but not in the camp of thinking we’re likely to cut out errors and never concede again, particularly against teams who punish those mistakes. Potentially the two toughest games of the season done and dusted within four days of each other. Happy with what we’ve seen so far, but as ever, lots to work on. 

A day extra and no travel either…Tues was at Preston (26 miles away)…big advantage.

We of course could’ve freshened it up, but I don’t think we looked shattered per se…just faced a good team, and it took a bleeding good header to get the points.  They didn’t create that much all-in-all.

I think the players will look at how much improvement they’ve made, but how much there is still to do…and it’s the second part of that statement that’s important, as I feel this is a team that will reflect on that and push on when the matches return, rather than think they can get-by just doing enough this season.  I think there’s a desire and acknowledge that they aren’t that far away from giving it a bash this season. Personally I think we need a bit more, but if we can stay in the top half, we can push from there as the season goes on.

[Davefevs]

44 minutes ago, Packman said:

Yeah he was definitely better second half apart from maybe the Williams chance that was cleared off the line. I thought taking Conway off actually helped him, as Tommy just sat on top of him and got in his way from all the set pieces first half. Better team won though in the end, no complaints.

Good observation…hadn’t noticed that.

[Curr Avon]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

No, 4th yellow in the league, one in the cup gets totted up separately.

Thanks for the update Dave, I didn't realise the League yellows were separate. 

For anyone interested, the full EFL suspension criteria for season 2022/23 is detailed in the following doc.

https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/discipline/player-essentials

 

Edited September 17, 2022 by Curr Avon

[Logical-City]

1 hour ago, Gazred said:

Burnley manager Vincent Kompany told BBC Radio Lancashire:

"It's ideal to go into the international break off [a win]. It was a good win and a good performance against a very tough opponent.

We've watched a lot of Bristol City games; they press high, they have a lot of the ball and a lot of threat going forward, and for us to cancel some of that out was really not easy.

Keep doing what we are doing basically, I get a Blackpool under Holloway vibe about our play but we have more quality if we are brave and all stick together management and players we at least reach the playoffs this season 

 

neck on the line with that statement 

Also though I’ve been critical in the past Bentley was brilliant again today

Edited September 17, 2022 by Logical-City

[maxjak]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

A day extra and no travel either…Tues was at Preston (26 miles away)…big advantage.

We of course could’ve freshened it up, but I don’t think we looked shattered per se…just faced a good team, and it took a bleeding good header to get the points.  They didn’t create that much all-in-all.

I think the players will look at how much improvement they’ve made, but how much there is still to do…and it’s the second part of that statement that’s important, as I feel this is a team that will reflect on that and push on when the matches return, rather than think they can get-by just doing enough this season.  I think there’s a desire and acknowledge that they aren’t that far away from giving it a bash this season. Personally I think we need a bit more, but if we can stay in the top half, we can push from there as the season goes on.

I have no problem with our performance today , I thought we worked hard, and mostly looked good.  My concern is with Burnley's  4th minute opening goal.  We parted like the Red Sea, and more or less invited Manuel to shoot, no closing down, no challenges....and there we are after 4 minutes  with a mountain to climb.   We really make life so difficult for ourselves on occasions?  For me, that was one of the worst goals we have conceded all season......and we all know that we have conceded quite a few ..Ha!    it was not about an individual error, it was all about collective lethargy and stupidity?  

Edited September 17, 2022 by maxjak

[pillred]

5 hours ago, BS3City said:

I'm still feeling positive despite consecutive defeats. We are a decent team capable of scoring in every game. We all know where we are lacking, and it's massively frustrating sometimes, but I'm thoroughly enjoying watching us play at the moment, especially considering how dire we have been in recent years.

Big Nige and his mob know what we need, I trust him to get it right.

COYR!!!

We all know where we are lacking and have done so for what 3 years, yet there has been no progress at all, this for me has been the failing in our game plan coaching and recruitment, when are we going to become a team other teams don't see us as a soft touch, until then we could have the best attack in the division but if our forwards feel they have to outscore the opposition in every game eventually there will be interclub disharmony and we will lose that togetherness we currently have.  

[pillred]

5 hours ago, downendcity said:

That's like saying the law of averages evens out so that my granddaughter will see a unicorn by next May!

It sometimes looks like we will never get an even break, but I can assure you that if me and you live long enough, we will see as many decisions go our way as we deserve and your daughter if not seeing a Unicorn eventually will have as many good things in her life as bad.  

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, pillred said:

when are we going to become a team other teams don't see us as a soft touch

Quite simply…..now.

Listen / read to either Dean Smith or Vincent Kompany….or Jon Dahl Thomason before that.  This is not the Bristol City that Gary Rowatt or Michael O’Neil referred to in more recent times.

Even our little boys - Scott and Conway have edge.

16 minutes ago, pillred said:

yet there has been no progress at all

Wow!  Take into account that Nige had to go backwards to go forwards and look how far we’ve come since the early months of Pearson’s reign in 20/21.

17 minutes ago, pillred said:

but if our forwards feel they have to outscore the opposition in every game eventually there will be interclub disharmony and we will lose that togetherness we currently have.  

I see little evidence of any future “them and us” between our forwards and our defenders….that’s why you set a team / collective culture so things don’t drift.

Really feels like a post where someone pissed on your chips today at some point.

[Davefevs]

Not that I thought we deserved anything today, but it was still a game decided by a quality header (0.03 XG)

 

Edited September 17, 2022 by Davefevs

[Malago]

1 hour ago, pillred said:

We all know where we are lacking and have done so for what 3 years, yet there has been no progress at all, this for me has been the failing in our game plan coaching and recruitment, when are we going to become a team other teams don't see us as a soft touch, until then we could have the best attack in the division but if our forwards feel they have to outscore the opposition in every game eventually there will be interclub disharmony and we will lose that togetherness we currently have.  

The problem is we don’t have a plan B.   For an example, Could we have not gone to Burnley today and played 4 at the back, packed midfield and played Wells/Semenyo up top?  I appreciate we’ve found a winning system that works agains typical championship sides, but against those who have “better players”, a tweak here and there might no go amiss.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Malago

[Hxj]

32 minutes ago, Malago said:

The problem is we don’t have a plan B.

FFS sometimes in the last few seasons we've barely had a Plan A.

We have just played two of the toughest teams in Championship away from home in a week and we've lost both by a single goal.

And you are flapping about us having no 'morning after pill' ?????  It's not like we got f****d!

Edited September 17, 2022 by Hxj

[And Its Smith]

Bizarre amount of negativity on here. Well done @Davefevs for replying to some of it. I really couldn’t be arsed 

[pillred]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Quite simply…..now.

Listen / read to either Dean Smith or Vincent Kompany….or Jon Dahl Thomason before that.  This is not the Bristol City that Gary Rowatt or Michael O’Neil referred to in more recent times.

Even our little boys - Scott and Conway have edge.

Wow!  Take into account that Nige had to go backwards to go forwards and look how far we’ve come since the early months of Pearson’s reign in 20/21.

I see little evidence of any future “them and us” between our forwards and our defenders….that’s why you set a team / collective culture so things don’t drift.

Really feels like a post where someone pissed on your chips today at some point.

So, two and a half years into his reign our defence is no better than it was the day he arrived statistically speaking, we still need to score on average at least 2 goals to win most games, yes, we have made great strides, but would you be happy knowing all your hard work was for nothing? if you were at the coalface knowing all that coal was for nothing because your mates had left the back door open? pissed on my chips? I have had a great day thanks and can do without your sanctimonious spouting's I always thought that you talked a lot of sense on here compared to some who shall remain nameless, don't fall into the trap of thinking a lot of positive comments on your postings mean you are right all the time, sometimes that can make you blind to certain managers failings overall. I can see we are making progress, am I happy? well up to a point I am but until we are competing with the likes of Norwich and Burnley who in my opinion, we should be at least on a par with then no. (And yes, I am well aware they have parachute payments) but by now so should we given the money SL has invested and the support we have, if they can do it why not us.  

Edited September 18, 2022 by pillred
Opinion

[Mr Popodopolous]

Each to their own @pillred but fairly sure our statistical defensive numbers are superior now to when NP took over, especially when balanced against the attacking threat- our high line and attacking approach can lead to slips, notably the 2nd goal at Norwich.

In respect of promotion and Parachute Payments, maybe we should maybe we shouldn't but arguably 2008 was a key time that we failed in terms of not rolling the dice in January PRE FFP, 2018 is cited but we could not have gone much further FFP wise and we were into the 3 year rule with in season deductions possible. Otoh, Aston Villa, Cardiff, Fulham, Hull, Middlesbrough, Norwich, QPR and Sunderland were all in receipt of Parachute Payments of some level that season lest we forget.

I might also add, Burnley and their last 15 years or more. When they had a Cup run it pushed them on and they won the playoffs! This set them up big time and in the subsequent seasons...well I will list but in 2008-09 they like us beat PL sides enroute to the Cup semi final and kicked on! Enroute to the playoffs. Which they won!

Burnley

2009-10 PL revenue

2010-11 Parachute Payments

2011-12 Parachute Payments

2012-13 Parachute Payments

2013-14 Parachute Payments AND return to PL promotion wise.

2014-15- PL revenue

2015-16 Parachute Payments AND instant return to PL promotion wise.

2016-17 PL revenue

2017-18 PL revenue

2018-19 PL revenue

2019-20 PL revenue

2020-21 PL revenue

2021-22 PL revenue

2022-23 Parachute Payments

Cannot overstate especially with a generally well run club just how big an advantage this is. It's so hard to quantify but it is huge. Up to 2 more years of Parachute Payments if they fail too, otherwise back in the money if they go back up.

Norwich in 2009, they were a shambles. Lambert came in early in 2009-10 and clearly pulled them up by the bootstraps, momentum with gates of 25k probably and they drove on, no FFP in 2010 either but no big spenders...sometimes it clicks, we were one game away from this in 2008.

Norwich

2011-12 PL revenue

2012-13 PL revenue

2013-14 PL revenue but relegated...however...

2014-15 Parachute Payments AND instant return

2015-16 PL revenue

2016-17 Parachute Payments

2017-18 Parachute Payments

2018-19 NO Parachute Payments but reinvested very well after Maddison and Murphy sold, PROMOTION. Parachute Payments helped greatly probably.

2019-20 PL revenue

2020-21 Parachute Payments AND instant return.

2021-22 PL revenue

2022-23 Parachute Payments

Next season too if they don't go back up.

Once that advantage is locked in if you are a) Well run and b) Keep getting a promotion at the right time, it's enormous.

[And Its Smith]

7 hours ago, pillred said:

So, two and a half years into his reign our defence is no better than it was the day he arrived statistically speaking, we still need to score on average at least 2 goals to win most games, yes, we have made great strides, but would you be happy knowing all your hard work was for nothing? if you were at the coalface knowing all that coal was for nothing because your mates had left the back door open? pissed on my chips? I have had a great day thanks and can do without your sanctimonious spouting's I always thought that you talked a lot of sense on here compared to some who shall remain nameless, don't fall into the trap of thinking a lot of positive comments on your postings mean you are right all the time, sometimes that can make you blind to certain managers failings overall. I can see we are making progress, am I happy? well up to a point I am but until we are competing with the likes of Norwich and Burnley who in my opinion, we should be at least on a par with then no. (And yes, I am well aware they have parachute payments) but by now so should we given the money SL has invested and the support we have, if they can do it why not us.  

Maybe this was posted after a fair few pints but to suggest we should be ‘on at least par’ with Norwich and Burnley is bizarre. Our big transfer spends was pre Pearson. The two clubs you mention have spent an absolute fortune on their squad compared to us.  Our starting XI cost less than £15m I think and most of that is Wells, again a player not signed by Pearson.  They spend that on two players, maybe even one player.  And to say we should be ‘at least par’ means that really you think we should be better than these sides.

[Northern Red]

7 hours ago, pillred said:

So, two and a half years into his reign our defence is no better than it was the day he arrived statistically speaking, we still need to score on average at least 2 goals to win most games, yes, we have made great strides, but would you be happy knowing all your hard work was for nothing? if you were at the coalface knowing all that coal was for nothing because your mates had left the back door open? pissed on my chips? I have had a great day thanks and can do without your sanctimonious spouting's I always thought that you talked a lot of sense on here compared to some who shall remain nameless, don't fall into the trap of thinking a lot of positive comments on your postings mean you are right all the time, sometimes that can make you blind to certain managers failings overall. I can see we are making progress, am I happy? well up to a point I am but until we are competing with the likes of Norwich and Burnley who in my opinion, we should be at least on a par with then no. (And yes, I am well aware they have parachute payments) but by now so should we given the money SL has invested and the support we have, if they can do it why not us.  

Two and a half years ago Lee Johnson was still in charge.

[Top Robin]

7 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Each to their own @pillred but fairly sure our statistical defensive numbers are superior now to when NP took over, especially when balanced against the attacking threat- our high line and attacking approach can lead to slips, notably the 2nd goal at Norwich.

In respect of promotion and Parachute Payments, maybe we should maybe we shouldn't but arguably 2008 was a key time that we failed in terms of not rolling the dice in January PRE FFP, 2018 is cited but we could not have gone much further FFP wise and we were into the 3 year rule with in season deductions possible. Otoh, Aston Villa, Cardiff, Fulham, Hull, Middlesbrough, Norwich, QPR and Sunderland were all in receipt of Parachute Payments of some level that season lest we forget.

I might also add, Burnley and their last 15 years or more. When they had a Cup run it pushed them on and they won the playoffs! This set them up big time and in the subsequent seasons...well I will list but in 2008-09 they like us beat PL sides enroute to the Cup semi final and kicked on! Enroute to the playoffs. Which they won!

Burnley

2009-10 PL revenue

2010-11 Parachute Payments

2011-12 Parachute Payments

2012-13 Parachute Payments

2013-14 Parachute Payments AND return to PL promotion wise.

2014-15- PL revenue

2015-16 Parachute Payments AND instant return to PL promotion wise.

2016-17 PL revenue

2017-18 PL revenue

2018-19 PL revenue

2019-20 PL revenue

2020-21 PL revenue

2021-22 PL revenue

2022-23 Parachute Payments

Cannot overstate especially with a generally well run club just how big an advantage this is. It's so hard to quantify but it is huge. Up to 2 more years of Parachute Payments if they fail too, otherwise back in the money if they go back up.

Norwich in 2009, they were a shambles. Lambert came in early in 2009-10 and clearly pulled them up by the bootstraps, momentum with gates of 25k probably and they drove on, no FFP in 2010 either but no big spenders...sometimes it clicks, we were one game away from this in 2008.

Norwich

2011-12 PL revenue

2012-13 PL revenue

2013-14 PL revenue but relegated...however...

2014-15 Parachute Payments AND instant return

2015-16 PL revenue

2016-17 Parachute Payments

2017-18 Parachute Payments

2018-19 NO Parachute Payments but reinvested very well after Maddison and Murphy sold, PROMOTION. Parachute Payments helped greatly probably.

2019-20 PL revenue

2020-21 Parachute Payments AND instant return.

2021-22 PL revenue

2022-23 Parachute Payments

Next season too if they don't go back up.

Once that advantage is locked in if you are a) Well run and b) Keep getting a promotion at the right time, it's enormous.

Parachute payments still need to be spent wisely by the manager to buy the correct players to make a decent team.

There are plenty of teams who have struggled in the championship even with parachute payments. 

There were also teams in the championship like Brighton, Forest, Brentford and Bournemouth (first time) who did better than those with parachute payments and got promoted to the Prem. 

[pillred]

1 hour ago, And Its Smith said:

Maybe this was posted after a fair few pints but to suggest we should be ‘on at least par’ with Norwich and Burnley is bizarre. Our big transfer spends was pre Pearson. The two clubs you mention have spent an absolute fortune on their squad compared to us.  Our starting XI cost less than £15m I think and most of that is Wells, again a player not signed by Pearson.  They spend that on two players, maybe even one player.  And to say we should be ‘at least par’ means that really you think we should be better than these sides.

What I meant was there is no discernible reason why we could not be on a par with the likes of Burnley and Norwich, somehow, they have got themselves into the position of receiving parachute payments which as we can see gives them a hell of an advantage over teams like us, what did they and other teams like Swansea and Huddersfield do that we have not?

[pillred]

43 minutes ago, Top Robin said:

Parachute payments still need to be spent wisely by the manager to buy the correct players to make a decent team.

There are plenty of teams who have struggled in the championship even with parachute payments. 

There were also teams in the championship like Brighton, Forest, Brentford and Bournemouth (first time) who did better than those with parachute payments and got promoted to the Prem. 

As of my other post I ask, what did these teams that you mention do that we can't seem to? that's the thing that most frustrates me my earlier post was misunderstood I was not saying we should be competing with Burnley and the like as we stand now just that in the long term, we should be able to surely.   

[pillred]

Looks like I got my years mixed up oops.

Edited September 18, 2022 by pillred
Opinion

[pillred]

1 hour ago, Northern Red said:

Two and a half years ago Lee Johnson was still in charge.

I should have said a year and a half thought he was appointed in 2020 sorry.