Norwood's Foul on Williams - Why no Red Card?

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Fair enough, I’d like to see it again to be honest.

I think whenever I see a pen shout I try and think, “how would I feel if it was given against us?”

In this case, maybe a little hard done by - yeah there’s contact and it’s clumsy from the defender but first view thought it was 50/50 on pushing and shoving and then Wells looked for it a bit?

As I said though I’ve seen them given and we don’t seem to be getting rub of green on these types of decisions….

I think travelling at speed, saw it online somewhere will share- travelling at speed as Wells was there is a reasonable case for the award IMO. Dunno if we're talking about the same one.

[Mr Popodopolous]

It may already have been shared on here, Idk but can make a case for a pen IMO. Not a stonewaller of course.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Matches should be judged individually and on merit. Although I understand how reputation can carry, e.g. if a player goes down easily.

Perhaps, and that's an interesting argument though it was Warnock and others, probably not so much under Wilder but he was quite a footballing manager. I digress.

The foul to yellow card ratio, while quite dry is also quite revealing. I don't have time now but might make a couple of graphs for that across this and last season, likewise my work on Shot/Penalty ratios which I might restart soon.

Yet the fact that we are 17th for fouls shows that we are far from a dirty side, and more sinned against than sinned by some way.

This might be a bad example but I'll give it a go. 

Imagine at school there is a child that always misbehaves. They may get punished for some of the serious things but a lot of the time things go unpunished. 

You then have a child that always displays good behaviour. They are nice, kind and polite. But one day they do something that the misbehaving child gets away with, but they get punished for it. Despite it being the same rules for both. 

I think that's what we are, the nice well behaving child. So when we do step out of line, we therefore get punished more. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

@Mr Popodopolous When Norwood did that horror challenge on Williams, I don't think any of our players really reacted to it. 

However when Tanner did his challenge, look how all the Sheffield players acted? 

It's them things we need to start doing. 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It may already have been shared on here, Idk but can make a case for a pen IMO. Not a stonewaller of course.

I think it’s more a penalty than not a penalty, but it isn’t clear cut for me.

The acid test for me is, would you have given a free-kick for it on the halfway line?  If yes, it’s a penalty, if not, then fair enough.  Where it happens is irrelevant. Contact is allowed.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Davefevs

[Lew-T]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It may already have been shared on here, Idk but can make a case for a pen IMO. Not a stonewaller of course.

It just looks a penalty to me. The lad isn’t in control of the situation when shielding/shouldering the ball. 
 

Clumsy enough for a pen IMO.

[Mr Popodopolous]

42 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think it’s more a penalty than not a penalty, but it isn’t clear cut for me.

The acid test for me is, would you have given a free-kick for it on the halfway line?  If yes, it’s a penalty, if not, then fair enough.  Where it happens is irrelevant. Contact is allowed.

Agreed.

18 minutes ago, Lew-T said:

It just looks a penalty to me. The lad isn’t in control of the situation when shielding/shouldering the ball. 
 

Clumsy enough for a pen IMO.

Inclined to agree but they are allowing for more physical contact this season seemingly and there seem to be less penalties awarded per game at Championship than in recent years which is irritating timing for us because we have improved our attacking intent and output in the last 12 months or so. Was Wells truly impeded or might he have gone down a little easily?

More penalty than non though I think.

Statistically though, there were less awarded as a ratio per game in 2021-22 than in 2020-21 and so far I think it maybe slightly down again.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Fwiw I read some of the responses on Twitter. Two neutrals.

A Coventry fan said dive, Fulham fan reckoned soft as hell if given.

[old parkender]

VAR would 100% give that as a pen, he’s not only barrelled into wells nowhere near the ball but also clipped his leg for good measure, no way could wells stay on his feet under that challenge. 

[Super]

5 minutes ago, old parkender said:

VAR would 100% give that as a pen, he’s not only barrelled into wells nowhere near the ball but also clipped his leg for good measure, no way could wells stay on his feet under that challenge. 

I don't think it would. Did he even clip his leg? Hard to tell from that video

Edited November 3, 2022 by Super

[1960maaan]

No intention to play the ball, for me it's a Pen.

Trying to see why it wasn't given.
Pic 1;
I think this is where the Ref could see it as shoulder to shoulder, but as I say, he barges into the player while not trying to win the ball,

Pic 2;
Leg raised, arm raised and just wanted to stop Wells getting near the ball. The defending player is actually running away from the ball, it's one thing being stringer in the challenge, but your intent has to be to get the ball.
The more annoying thing for me is some of the ones you see given. We never seem to get those could/should/maybe ones.
Short of ABH I don't ever see us getting a Pen ever again.
 

[Super]

11 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

No intention to play the ball, for me it's a Pen.

Trying to see why it wasn't given.
Pic 1;
I think this is where the Ref could see it as shoulder to shoulder, but as I say, he barges into the player while not trying to win the ball,

Pic 2;
Leg raised, arm raised and just wanted to stop Wells getting near the ball. The defending player is actually running away from the ball, it's one thing being stringer in the challenge, but your intent has to be to get the ball.
The more annoying thing for me is some of the ones you see given. We never seem to get those could/should/maybe ones.
Short of ABH I don't ever see us getting a Pen ever again.
 

I still think that's 50/50. I wouldn't be happy that given against us that's for sure. 

[Red-Robbo]

The contact looks like it's outside the box for one thing. 

[old parkender]

44 minutes ago, Super said:

I don't think it would. Did he even clip his leg? Hard to tell from that video

He’s come right across him with his leg, ball nowhere near, I’m baffled how that wasn’t deemed a foul

[Super]

10 minutes ago, old parkender said:

He’s come right across him with his leg, ball nowhere near, I’m baffled how that wasn’t deemed a foul

Like RR says it's outside the box

[Slacker]

Wonder what would have been given if the incident was the other way round?Who would bet against Sheff Utd being given the penalty?

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, Super said:

I still think that's 50/50. I wouldn't be happy that given against us that's for sure. 

Yeah all about opinions, but I would expect that to be given every time, at least against us. I'm surprised I even shouted for this at the time, nearly at the stage where if one of ours was punched in the box, I'd shrug and say "we'll never get those"

[RedEd73]

On 02/11/2022 at 11:25, Davefevs said:

No, the offside comes first.

Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere in the thread. 

I'm sure a couple of years ago home v Boro and Britt Assombalonga was about 5 yards offside when the ball was played forward, but the ref played on, he scored and the goal stood because Taylor Moore headed the ball back towards his own goal. I recall Sky saying that if TM hadn't played the ball it would have been offside, but his touch played BA onside (even though he was clearly off when the original ball was played forward).

What's the difference here? 

[old parkender]

1 hour ago, Super said:

Like RR says it's outside the box

Contentious whether in or out the box but the fact remains it was a foul and should have been at the least a free kick. To get absolutely nothing from that is scandalous 

[Curr Avon]

We've complained to the FA, but they're not taking it seriously.

[kit]

2 hours ago, RedEd73 said:

Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere in the thread. 

I'm sure a couple of years ago home v Boro and Britt Assombalonga was about 5 yards offside when the ball was played forward, but the ref played on, he scored and the goal stood because Taylor Moore headed the ball back towards his own goal. I recall Sky saying that if TM hadn't played the ball it would have been offside, but his touch played BA onside (even though he was clearly off when the original ball was played forward).

What's the difference here? 

Assombalonga wasn't challenging for the ball or with taylor moore at the time, from memory he was at least 5 yards from him if not even further.

[Davefevs]

43 minutes ago, kit said:

Assombalonga wasn't challenging for the ball or with taylor moore at the time, from memory he was at least 5 yards from him if not even further.

Assombalonga might’ve actually been onside also….it was really tight….just looked bad because he’d timed his run well and was well beyond Moore when Moore glanced it into his path.

TV view doesn’t help, but remember seeing a different view at the time and I was amazed how tight it was.

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Davefevs

[semblar]

16 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

No intention to play the ball, for me it's a Pen.

Trying to see why it wasn't given.
Pic 1;
I think this is where the Ref could see it as shoulder to shoulder, but as I say, he barges into the player while not trying to win the ball,

Pic 2;
Leg raised, arm raised and just wanted to stop Wells getting near the ball. The defending player is actually running away from the ball, it's one thing being stringer in the challenge, but your intent has to be to get the ball.
The more annoying thing for me is some of the ones you see given. We never seem to get those could/should/maybe ones.
Short of ABH I don't ever see us getting a Pen ever again.
 

The highlighted phrase is the key for me. On each individual occasion across the last couple of years the consensus seems to be "I've seen those given".... but they appear to never be given in our favour!

[Super]

1 hour ago, semblar said:

The highlighted phrase is the key for me. On each individual occasion across the last couple of years the consensus seems to be "I've seen those given".... but they appear to never be given in our favour!

It would have been a free kick not a pen.

[hinsleburg]

16 hours ago, Slacker said:

Wonder what would have been given if the incident was the other way round?Who would bet against Sheff Utd being given the penalty?

For what it's worth, my first thought was Free Kick as thought it was outside the box.

However, it does look very similar to the Swansea appeal on Saturday (not seen a replay) which also wasn't given so at least there's been an element of consistency across the 2 games.

[Midred]

21 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Fwiw I read some of the responses on Twitter. Two neutrals.

A Coventry fan said dive, Fulham fan reckoned soft as hell if given.

Would the Fulham fan say that if it was Mitrovic?

[Mr Popodopolous]

35 minutes ago, Midred said:

Would the Fulham fan say that if it was Mitrovic?

Well quite. Although my point is that neutral views don't necessarily come down on the side of penalty.

I'm still leaning towards penalty fwiw.

Edited November 4, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Midred]

Strange with how many incidents within the penalty area when a defender falls over a free kick is awarded.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Dunno whether you're talking in general but.

Higher bar...you're merely unconvincing an attacking side, I say merely whereas a penalty is a good chance of an actual goal.

IMO anyway. Higher bar for a penalty...However our bar is somewhere up in the stratosphere!!

Edited November 4, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Wrong thread!!

Edited November 4, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous