Norwood's Foul on Williams - Why no Red Card?

[AppyDAZE]

Retrospective action, or doesn't it matter much because it's not Premier League?

Tanner out for 3 games, Norwood, nothing.

No wonder people tear their hair out over modern football.

[maxjak]

36 minutes ago, Dan Robin said:

Not the first time it happens: the club shoul pay more attention on the channel's work, because the numerous refs decisions that go against us could be used as a proof to be showed to EFL/Refs Associations.

If someone had the time and means, i could imagine 10-15 occasions could be easily found and presented......whether it would have any effect, other  than immense frustration, i couldn't say?

[maxjak]

37 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yes good point. There was another big penalty shout that wasn't shown earlier in the season or was maybe last season, although it seemed to be Sky commentary so I dunno who did the final edit.

Sykes red card, well he was clearly obstructed, the Bennett yellow that should habe been red...

When did we last get a major call in our favour, 'Phew, we really got away with one there' kinda thing.

You mean just like Sheff Utd did last night.........three times?  Ha!

[Davefevs]

14 minutes ago, AppyDAZE said:

Retrospective action, or doesn't it matter much because it's not Premier League?

Tanner out for 3 games, Norwood, nothing.

No wonder people tear their hair out over modern football.

It is possible retrospective action could be taken…but I wouldn’t hold your breath!

[maxjak]

2 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Are you really really sure?

How would in this industry where detail down to minutiae is measured would this conspiracy versus one team be missed?

 

The Grassy Knoll?

[Major Isewater]

3 hours ago, Alessandro said:

Sheff Utd very cynical

And very much in the mix for promotion to the Prem.

 

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Had a quick look at Bristol City news.

It is the Daily Star for one but ott??

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/championship-bristol-city-sheffield-united-28386233

We all know what tabloids are like etc.

My God ….

have you seen Goldie Hawn ? 
 

[maxjak]

33 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The standard of refereeing is high. Refereiing standards in England of similar levels to those in comparatiive lewagues in Europe, Ref efficiency is measured, Refs have to go through a rigorous process of many years to reach championship level, a process that also seems them demoted if their marks and evaluations fall below standards.

Refs will make errors, as did the City player giving the ball away under little pressure with options available last night and Utd score from the possession City conceded. The reaction on here to a pass a youth player could have made? None. 

Double standards?

City failed because the team failed not because a ref made errors and errors above ARE part of football. 

 Projecting failure onto offiicials is a weak mindset. Excuses are not solutions. Excuses are a flight response not a fighters. A major change is needed in footall. Self reflection where people look at themselves rather than projecting blame elsewhere. This should start at the top with respecting the game. It is top to bottom. 

I was just pondering.........do you have any involvement in refereeing?  You make a very interesting philosophical point in reference to blame, human error and responsibility. Yet despite your intriguing treatise, I am still of the opinion, that just like footballers, referee's need to improve their poor standards.  There are good reasons that the referee's we get at Ashton Gate and elsewhere are not officiating in the Premier League, that is because in general, they are Second Rate?

[marcofisher]

Does Tanner get a three game ban or one?

[Sheltons Army]

1 minute ago, marcofisher said:

Does Tanner get a three game ban or one?

3 unfortunately

I see real growth in him

[Alessandro]

41 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

And very much in the mix for promotion to the Prem.

 

One man's cynical is another's streetwise. 

All part of the game and they did it well last night, getting away with most of it.

[Cowshed]

36 minutes ago, maxjak said:

I was just pondering.........do you have any involvement in refereeing?  You make a very interesting philosophical point in reference to blame, human error and responsibility. Yet despite your intriguing treatise, I am still of the opinion, that just like footballers, referee's need to improve their poor standards.  

I have been at a level where I have been modestly paid to play, coach and manage. I still coach and one of the things the ongoing coaching education includes is self-reflection. As part of the coaching and my own improvement I go to FA ran events for refs, Managers and coaches where refereeing, and rule changes ae discussed. 

A fact. Refereeing efficiency has not decreased, it’s the other way around over decades. The FA, leagues and IFAB who are responsible for the rules and how they are applied monitor efficiency. Refereeing in England up the pyramid via the PGMOL is intensely monitored, the refs are professional and highly skilled, they have to be and if standards drop, they are demoted. The process and ref pyramid from level seven refs upwards improves standards at each level. It is incrediibly hard to progress to semi pro level as a ref, past that is elite levels.

England’s refs are not second rate. If the refs were the EPL/EFL (purchasing highly skilled ref services) and the PGMOL (a business selling top quality ref services) would bring in refs from abroad, the ones whose efficiency is measured in La Liga etc who are actually performing at the same monitored standards of the PGMOL refs.

36 minutes ago, maxjak said:

.  There are good reasons that the referee's we get at Ashton Gate and elsewhere are not officiating in the Premier League, that is because in general, they are Second Rate?

Select one refs do EPL, Championship, div one, div two .. And some select one dont  because they are at standard, where they are on the super ref standard of EPL, FIFA, Europa and Champions leagues ..

Edited November 2, 2022 by Cowshed

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

One man's cynical is another's streetwise. 

All part of the game and they did it well last night, getting away with most of it.

My question therefore is, would we get away with similar. Something tells me we would not!

[Robbored]

Just watched the game again and as I thought last night City were far the better the team but yet again conceded a sloppy goal and everyone, fans, players and Nige were hugely frustrated with way in which it keeps happening.

Our goals have dried up but nobody can say that City aren’t creating chances - it’s simply because Lady Luck has deserted our forwards - hitting the woodwork twice just highlights that. Let’s hope our forwards can find their mojo against Lincoln and be fired up for the visit of Watford next Saturday.

Norwood should have got a straight red for his OTT tackle on Williams who was fortunate not get seriously injured and Tanner’s straight red was the right decision.

The Blades time wasting tactics must be a legacy from when Neil Warnock was in charge - was so obvious and only 8 mins added time was about 3 mins light imo.

Nige was bitter sweet about it post match tho………….

[maxjak]

33 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

I have been at a level where I have been modestly paid to play, coach and manage. I still coach and one of the things the ongoing coaching education includes is self-reflection. As part of the coaching and my own improvement I go to FA ran events for refs, Managers and coaches where refereeing, and rule changes ae discussed. 

A fact. Refereeing efficiency has not decreased, it’s the other way around over decades. The FA, leagues and IFAB who are responsible for the rules and how they are applied monitor efficiency. Refereeing in England up the pyramid via the PGMOL is intensely monitored, the refs are professional and highly skilled, they have to be and if standards drop, they are demoted. The process and ref pyramid from level seven refs upwards improves standards at each level. It is incrediibly hard to progress to semi pro level as a ref, past that is elite levels.

England’s refs are not second rate. If the refs were the EPL/EFL (purchasing highly skilled ref services) and the PGMOL (a business selling top quality ref services) would bring in refs from abroad, the ones whose efficiency is measured in La Liga etc who are actually performing at the same monitored standards of the PGMOL refs.

Select one refs do EPL, Championship, div one, div two .. And some select one dont  because they are at standard, where they are on the super ref standard of EPL, FIFA, Europa and Champions leagues ..

So I can be assured that Steve Martin will now be demoted, as he failed to do his job properly last night, he made 2, and possibly 3 major errors IMHO., and i should add not just mine.  If there was an assessor there yesterday, surely he would be aware that the referee and assistant referee made blatant enough mistakes to have affected the ultimate outcome of the game?  The object of the exercise is to referee the match, and not make make markedly incorrect  significant decisions that decide the fate of the result?  

[Cowshed]

5 minutes ago, maxjak said:

So I can be assured that Steve Martin will now be demoted, as he failed to do his job properly last night, he made 2, and possibly 3 major errors IMHO., and i should add not just mine.  If there was an assessor there yesterday, surely he would be aware that the referee and assistant referee made blatant enough mistakes to have affected the ultimate outcome of the game?  The object of the exercise is to referee the match, and not make make markedly incorrect  significant decisions that decide the fate of the result?  

The possible offside v  Sharp isnt blatant. It is subjective x a degree of physical where a linseman would have to use primary focus, peripheral focus and subjective judgement at speed. Error there has to occur occassionally as humans are human. 

If the referee falls under a consistent standard yes they would be demoted. If your perceived standard of this refere is a consistent reality the referee will be demoted. Demotion will mean they will lose their job. Some refs are demoted from the PGMOL and at later date promoted again after improvement in consistency. 

Would you sack a player after two or possibly three errors?  

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

It is possible retrospective action could be taken…but I wouldn’t hold your breath!

The more I watch the close up of it, the more it makes my skin crawl. That was a potentially career ending challenge. 

You can actually see Williams leg bend backwards. He is extremely lucky to have not broken something. 

[Peter1450]

6 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The possible offside v  Sharp isnt blatant. It is subjective x a degree of physical where a linseman would have to use primary focus, peripheral focus and subjective judgement at speed. Error there has to occur occassionally as humans are human. 

If the referee falls under a consistent standard yes they would be demoted. If your perceived standard of this refere is a consistent reality the referee will be demoted. Demotion will mean they will lose their job. Some refs are demoted from the PGMOL and at later date promoted again after improvement in consistency. 

Would you sack a player after two or possibly three errors?  

Are refs made/ expected to watch a game back and learn from said perceived errors or do they just crack on to the next poor buggers?

[maxjak]

9 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The possible offside v  Sharp isnt blatant. It is subjective x a degree of physical where a linseman would have to use primary focus, peripheral focus and subjective judgement at speed. Error there has to occur occassionally as humans are human. 

If the referee falls under a consistent standard yes they would be demoted. If your perceived standard of this refere is a consistent reality the referee will be demoted. Demotion will mean they will lose their job. Some refs are demoted from the PGMOL and at later date promoted again after improvement in consistency. 

Would you sack a player after two or possibly three errors?  

No i would not sack a player after 2 or 3 errors........and your comparison is absurd IMHO.  To say that the offside was subjective is an observation worthy of derision.  By making that statement your initial credibility has just ceased to exist.  Good Luck with your campaign to highlight the wonderful standard of Referee's...........i can imagine you were also a supporter  of Liz Truss  ?

[exAtyeoMax]

4 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Who was the summariser?

I remember when we won up there with a late Flint goal (Paterson scored a worldie first half), Michael Brown did that game, I thought he was going to start crying or phone The Samaritans at the final whistle, ridiculously biased.

I don’t know but they were really annoying 

[Cowshed]

Just now, maxjak said:

No i would not sack a player after 2 or 3 errors........and your comparison is absurd IMHO.  To say that the offside was subjective is an observation worthy of derision.  By making that statement your initial credibility has just ceased to exist. 

The comparison is not absurd.

Bristol City players make errors leading to?

Refs and linesmen make occassional errors that may lead to? 

You were apparantly thinking refs should be sacked after one bad game, Sacked from employment. If refs are to be sacked after errors on that scalethe EPL/EFL/PGMOL are going to have to bring in a huge number of refs from abroad to hire and sack, refs who are of the same measured standrads, and who will also make errors.

Now that is an absurdity.

7 minutes ago, maxjak said:

 To say that the offside was subjective is an observation worthy of derision. 

Part of law 11 is subjectiive isn't it? 

The linesman has to make a call that involves variables of line, proximity, prescience, movement and on. Its not black and white.

16 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Good Luck with your campaign to highlight the wonderful standard of Referee's.

 I am answering your questions. 

17 minutes ago, maxjak said:

.i can imagine you were also a supporter  of 

Don't imagine. Labour not that is a measure of trust, Blairs WMD's that could be launched in 45 secs have not been found yet.

[Fammyfan]

5 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Its not baffling, it costs, and the industry in the championship doesn't cover it yet.

No team would be better off points wise beyond a very short term. Unless you believe there is a conspiracy v Bristol City refereeing error is chance (luck). Luck is a consistent across all teams, luck occurs in even measure where refereeing errors even out across teams over months and seasons.

So the cost of it being implemented in Scotland has ranged from £67k to £195k per club per season, whilst this isn’t necessarily low cost, it’s small in the grand scheme of the millions at stake in the Championship.

We have had numerous costly decisions wrongly go against us and seemingly no big decisions wrongly in our favour in order to balance out. In the last 3 seasons we’ve been awarded 3 penalties (last one being 6 November 2021) and had 17 awarded against us.

With this considered, whilst there will still be errors, these will be reduced. If errors are due to a reduced standard of refereeing, VAR will provide a much needed aid. If errors are due to an issue against Bristol City, VAR will expose the inappropriate decisions.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Fammyfan

[Cowshed]

2 minutes ago, Fammyfan said:

So the cost of it being implemented in Scotland has ranged from £67k to £195k per club per season, whilst this isn’t necessarily low cost, it’s small in the grand scheme of the millions at stake in the Championship.

We have had numerous costly decisions wrongly go against us and seemingly no big decisions wrongly in our favour in order to balance out. In the last 3 seasons we’ve been awarded 3 penalties (last one being 6 November 2021) and had 17 awarded against us.

With this considered, whilst there will still be errors, these will be reduced. If errors are due to a reduced standard of refereeing, VAR will provide a much needed aid. If errors are due to an issue against Bristol City, VAR will expose the inappropriate decisions.

 

I have not stated that VAR doesnt reduce errors, I have stated in another thread that VAR improves efficiency, That efficiency is quantified by IFAB the FA etc.

Yes VAR will expose. It exposes refs. Refs that are under pressure, and ridiculed, and disrepected. These are good people, decent people who are not cheats, are not incompetant etc. These refs are highly hiighly skiilled, that is how they get through a process.

VAR does not breed respect for officialdom. Respect is much needed in football where we are seeing at grass roots level child refs being abuse, Bristol leagues being postponed due4 to the levels of abuse, Bristol refs having to call the police to get out of car parks safely at kids game .. That abuse, a crisis is a national picture and is being fed from the top down.

Thousads of refs are giving the game up. More than are being recruited. These are good people, decent people. 

Yes there will still be errors. Yes there is still the cycle of disrepects aimed at refs in the EPL and that cycle will be iin the EFL.

 Priorities? Respect? The well being of the game? 

[maxjak]

35 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The comparison is not absurd.

Bristol City players make errors leading to?

Refs and linesmen make occassional errors that may lead to? 

You were apparantly thinking refs should be sacked after one bad game, Sacked from employment. If refs are to be sacked after errors on that scalethe EPL/EFL/PGMOL are going to have to bring in a huge number of refs from abroad to hire and sack, refs who are of the same measured standrads, and who will also make errors.

Now that is an absurdity.

Part of law 11 is subjectiive isn't it? 

The linesman has to make a call that involves variables of line, proximity, prescience, movement and on. Its not black and white.

 I am answering your questions. 

Don't imagine. Labour not that is a measure of trust, Blairs WMD's that could be launched in 45 secs have not been found yet.

I suggested Referee's should be demoted, and possibly suspended, while re trained.......not sacked...........As to your other replies?.  How can something which is either On or Off be subjective?  Look up Subjective in a Dictionary?  I appreciate that you obviously see yourself as some kind of wordsmith...... but Tautology is also in the Dictionary, between Supercilious and Unctuous.........and how ever many ways you wish to express it, I suggest we     leave it there, as it is apparent that we will never agree.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

I have not stated that VAR doesnt reduce errors, I have stated in another thread that VAR improves efficiency, That efficiency is quantified by IFAB the FA etc.

Yes VAR will expose. It exposes refs. Refs that are under pressure, and ridiculed, and disrepected. These are good people, decent people who are not cheats, are not incompetant etc. These refs are highly hiighly skiilled, that is how they get through a process.

VAR does not breed respect for officialdom. Respect is much needed in football where we are seeing at grass roots level child refs being abuse, Bristol leagues being postponed due4 to the levels of abuse, Bristol refs having to call the police to get out of car parks safely at kids game .. That abuse, a crisis is a national picture and is being fed from the top down.

Thousads of refs are giving the game up. More than are being recruited. These are good people, decent people. 

Yes there will still be errors. Yes there is still the cycle of disrepects aimed at refs in the EPL and that cycle will be iin the EFL.

 Priorities? Respect? The well being of the game? 

I believe you are well informed about referees and how they are selected, trained and observed for future involvement at the appropriate level, I have two questions that you may be able to throw light upon.

Why do some referees when they are dishing out cards take what seems an enormity of time to also speak/lecture the player, thereby using up valuable time which is never in my opinion recovered as additional time? I can see no benefit to the wronged team in this happening, it merely serves to benefit the wrongdoing by stopping play for longer than is necessary.

Secondly why do some referees also have a lengthy conversation with a player without brandishing a card? In this age of so called professionalism do they seriously think the players take any notice of them at all.

I would be interested to know the ratio between players being given one yellow compared to two yellows, and how many fouls players given one yellow go on to make, I appreciate  that not all fouls warrant a yellow card, but is it proven that the first yellow acts as both a punishment and a deterrent to further fouls, or do referees display more leniency toward players who have already received a yellow.

[Cowshed]

Just now, maxjak said:

  How can something which is either On or Off be subjective?  Look up Subjective in a Dictionary? 

Because a player can be in an offside position but will not be penalised as they are not involved in active play. The whys of are open to the refs interpretation of the rules. The offsiide rule is open to discretion. 

[Davefevs]

Just now, Cowshed said:

Because a player can be in an offside position but will not be penalised as they are not involved in active play. The whys of are open to the refs interpretation of the rules. The offsiide rule is open to discretion. 

But Sharp was involved in play.

[Cowshed]

16 minutes ago, Countryfile said:

I believe you are well informed about referees and how they are selected, trained and observed for future involvement at the appropriate level, I have two questions that you may be able to throw light upon.

Why do some referees when they are dishing out cards take what seems an enormity of time to also speak/lecture the player, thereby using up valuable time which is never in my opinion recovered as additional time? I can see no benefit to the wronged team in this happening, it merely serves to benefit the wrongdoing by stopping play for longer than is necessary.

 

If you add all stoppages onto a game it becomes two and half hours long. Stoppages are demed what are normal and appropriate. Norms across leagues and Countries reflect its all very standard.

26 minutes ago, Countryfile said:

 

Secondly why do some referees also have a lengthy conversation with a player without brandishing a card? In this age of so called professionalism do they seriously think the players take any notice of them at all.

.

Refs should speak to players. Players do need information of why, what for, the consequences of what is next and some yes will not give a toss.  

28 minutes ago, Countryfile said:

I would be interested to know the ratio between players being given one yellow compared to two yellows, and how many fouls players given one yellow go on to make, I appreciate  that not all fouls warrant a yellow card, but is it proven that the first yellow acts as both a punishment and a deterrent to further fouls, 

Don't know Opinion here bookings moderate persistent infringements because its the last resort. As a player will I foul again when I know the next sanction is I am off? No I wont. 

 

[johnheadbcfc]

7 hours ago, BCFC11 said:

I don't think anyone has said it wasn't a deserved red?

See first page

[MarcusX]

8 hours ago, cidered abroad said:

I personally believe that Norwood was a deliberate stamp over the ball. This bad tackle was early in the game before that downpour in the second half and should have got a red card!

Tanner's legs went from under him on the saturated pitch and he was unable to control where he ended up. I therefore consider that while it wasn't deliberate, it still deserved a red because the outcome was dangerous.

Totally inconsistent refereeing again. He missed the second half body block in the second half which I believe was a definite penalty for City.

Overall, City are still looking like a team of gentlemen against a side with every trick in the book. We really do need to toughen up to stay up!

 

 

No it wasn’t, Williams only came on in the 80th minute. Egans yellow was 81 so that’s when it happened