Norwood's Foul on Williams - Why no Red Card?

[Portland Bill]

Sharpe was offside no doubt, the Lino should have seen that.

The tackle/foul on Williams should have been a red, no doubt about it, if the referee had seen it ( which he clearly couldn’t of, because every referee would have given a red card in that instance). 
 

Tanner’s was 100% a red, no argument there, his opponent has quick feet and was just too quick for Tanner this time.

The other one bought up is Wells and a penalty, absolutely no chance. Just good defending, Wells let himself get bullied by a stronger player.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, Portland Bill said:

Sharpe was offside no doubt, the Lino should have seen that.

The tackle/foul on Williams should have been a red, no doubt about it, if the referee had seen it ( which he clearly couldn’t of, because every referee would have given a red card in that instance). 
 

Tanner’s was 100% a red, no argument there, his opponent has quick feet and was just too quick for Tanner this time.

The other one bought up is Wells and a penalty, absolutely no chance. Just good defending, Wells let himself get bullied by a stronger player.

 

Agreed with your post for the most part, last bit? Dunno travelling at speed as Wells was, even a slight nudge can send you flying then again it is a contact sport. I'm leaning towards penalty but certainly not nailed on.

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

But Sharp was involved in play.

I agree, but the experts with a whistle and flag did not. Even experts and that is what they are will make errors, or see the game differently in a fleeting moment. 

 

 

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

I agree, but the experts with a whistle and flag did not. Even experts and that is what they are will make errors, or see the game differently in a fleeting moment. 

 

 

Which is why we need VAR as intended, to correct human error.

Expecting the officials to get every decision right is asking the impossible,  expecting clear errors to be corrected by referral when peoples livelihood’s are at stake is blindingly obvious.

Two things would improve the football experience for everyone immediately, VAR and taking the timekeeping away from the referee.

Thats not say that VAR is perfect, yes it will need refinement, but it’s got to be better than clear injustices benefiting those who have broken the rules.

[Cowshed]

3 minutes ago, Countryfile said:

Which is why we need VAR as intended, to correct human error.

Expecting the officials to get every decision right is asking the impossible,  expecting clear errors to be corrected by referral when peoples livelihood’s are at stake is blindingly obvious.

Two things would improve the football experience for everyone immediately, VAR and taking the timekeeping away from the referee.

Thats not say that VAR is perfect, yes it will need refinement, but it’s got to be better than clear injustices benefiting those who have broken the rules.

Timekeeping isnt the responsibilty of the ref in pro football, fourth official there

The game exists without VAR. We dont need it. VAR does not improve the experience for everbody.

VAR undermines refs because instead of focussing on the ref being the official in charge, and that role being respected focus is on error. Refs still get criticised and abused and so does VAR .. A prediction I made becaause that a is a nature of humans.

VAR does not break the cancerous cycle of abuse of refs in the game. VAR wont recruit or improve the crisis in ref recruitment at grass roots level feeding into the games pyramid . Linesman are being reduced to individuals carrying a flag. The refs role gets dumbed down. 

Development? Progression? Impact on game? Respect? 

The game is being damaged. Each seaason football loses thousands more refs than it recruits. VAR could be adding to the haemorrhage.

[W-S-M Seagull]

7 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Timekeeping isnt the responsibilty of the ref in pro football, fourth official there

The game exists without VAR. We dont need it. VAR does not improve the experience for everbody.

VAR undermines refs because instead of focussing on the ref being the official in charge, and that role being respected focus is on error. Refs still get criticised and abused and so does VAR .. A prediction I made becaause that a is a nature of humans.

VAR does not break the cancerous cycle of abuse of refs in the game. VAR wont recruit or improve the crisis in ref recruitment at grass roots level feeding into the games pyramid . Linesman are being reduced to individuals carrying a flag. The refs role gets dumbed down. 

Development? Progression? Impact on game? Respect? 

The game is being damaged. Each seaason football loses thousands more refs than it recruits. VAR could be adding to the haemorrhage.

The problem isn't VAR. The problem is with how it's used and so far in the PL I think it's been used incorrectly and not efficiently. 

Do you think TMO impacts upon the refs in rugby? 

[Mr Popodopolous]

One more observation. Posted it elsewhere, proviso I assume the stats are accurate.

We are 17th for fouls committed this season but...

*Have two entries who are joint top for individual yellow cards (4 players have 7, of these Scott and Williams make an appearance).

*2nd for yellow cards as a team (top 4 each have 44 apiece, we have 40).

*3rd for red cards. (We have 2, Blackpool have 4, and Cardiff 3).

*Joint 3rd for penalties against (Hull have 4, Cardiff, Birmingham and Huddersfield 3 apiece).

Clearly we need to be smarter too.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

Timekeeping isnt the responsibilty of the ref in pro football, fourth official there

The game exists without VAR. We dont need it. VAR does not improve the experience for everbody.

VAR undermines refs because instead of focussing on the ref being the official in charge, and that role being respected focus is on error. Refs still get criticised and abused and so does VAR .. A prediction I made becaause that a is a nature of humans.

VAR does not break the cancerous cycle of abuse of refs in the game. VAR wont recruit or improve the crisis in ref recruitment at grass roots level feeding into the games pyramid . Linesman are being reduced to individuals carrying a flag. The refs role gets dumbed down. 

Development? Progression? Impact on game? Respect? 

The game is being damaged. Each seaason football loses thousands more refs than it recruits. VAR could be adding to the haemorrhage.

Out of interest, how does the 4th official “tot-up” the time to be added.  I’m led to believe it’s 30s for each goal and each batch of subs, e.g. 2 goals and 6 batches of subs equals +4m.  But what about injuries, time wasting (even if by crowd not throwing ball back), etc?  Does he keep a tally?

I appreciate normal ball going out of play and retrieved isn’t added.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Davefevs

[Hamdon Mart]

I've not seen it mentioned anywhere in the aftermath of the game but I'm fairly sure Alex Scott was caught by a stray arm from McBurnie last night. I only saw the last bit before Scott went down but I'm almost certain that McBurnie was sent on with instructions to clobber Scott as he was playing so well.

And to answer someone's question further up the thread. I sat next to a former league ref at the last Rovers game and the assessors have special software that they use during the match to record KMI's (I think they're called, Key Major Incidents?). Assessor makes notes, he then gets sent footage of the game post match and they have a debrief with the referee the day after. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Hamdon Mart

[Davefevs]

16 minutes ago, Hamdon Mart said:

I've not seen it mentioned anywhere in the aftermath of the game but I'm fairly sure Alex Scott was caught by a stray arm from McBurnie last night. I only saw the last bit before Scott went down but I'm almost certain that McBurnie was sent off with instructions to clobber Scott as he was playing so well.

And to answer someone's question further up the thread. I sat next to a former league ref at the last Rovers game and the assessors have special software that they use during the match to record KMI's (I think they're called, Key Major Incidents?). Assessor makes notes, he then gets sent footage of the game post match and they have a debrief with the referee the day after. 

Was that when Scott ran into the back of him?

[Hamdon Mart]

Just now, Davefevs said:

Was that when Scott ran into the back of him?

Ah, is that what happened? I only saw the last bit where he went down. Was just by the away dugout? 

[Davefevs]

Just now, Hamdon Mart said:

Ah, is that what happened? I only saw the last bit where he went down. Was just by the away dugout? 

Yes, he stood his ground and Scott ran into the back of him.

[Portland Bill]

3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Agreed with your post for the most part, last bit? Dunno travelling at speed as Wells was, even a slight nudge can send you flying then again it is a contact sport. I'm leaning towards penalty but certainly not nailed on.

The thing is, this was a common coming together, it happens all over the pitch at different stages in every game. These are accepted as ‘part of the game’ nowadays. 

[Portland Bill]

56 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Out of interest, how does the 4th official “tot-up” the time to be added.  I’m led to believe it’s 30s for each goal and each batch of subs, e.g. 2 goals and 6 batches of subs equals +4m.  But what about injuries, time wasting (even if by crowd not throwing ball back), etc?  Does he keep a tally?

I appreciate normal ball going out of play and retrieved isn’t added.

The fourth official doesn’t tally it up, the referee tells him what it is.

 

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

The fourth official doesn’t tally it up, the referee tells him what it is.

 

How does he do it then!

[Portland Bill]

3 hours ago, Countryfile said:

Which is why we need VAR as intended, to correct human error.

Expecting the officials to get every decision right is asking the impossible,  expecting clear errors to be corrected by referral when peoples livelihood’s are at stake is blindingly obvious.

Two things would improve the football experience for everyone immediately, VAR and taking the timekeeping away from the referee.

Thats not say that VAR is perfect, yes it will need refinement, but it’s got to be better than clear injustices benefiting those who have broken the rules.

For me human error is part of football. Officials make mistakes yes, but the players make a whole lot more!.

I don’t want the ‘perfect’ game, I want football as it always has been, unpredictable. 
I hate the way the game is going,it’s not a tv programme, it’s a sport where anything can happen.

Plymouth v Exeter on Monday night was the sort of game I want to watch, none of this VAR rubbish. Just give me good honest football without the cheating and diving….. please. 

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

How does he do it then!

He stops his watch when he feels he has to, it’s really that simple Dave. Or one of his watches I should say.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Portland Bill

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

For me human error is part of football. Officials make mistakes yes, but the players make a whole lot more!.

I don’t want the ‘perfect’ game, I want football as it always has been, unpredictable. 
I hate the way the game is going,it’s not a tv programme, it’s a sport where anything can happen.

Plymouth v Exeter on Monday night was the sort of game I want to watch, none of this VAR rubbish. Just give me good honest football without the cheating and diving….. please. 

He stops his watch when he feels he has to, it’s really that simple Dave. Or one of his watches I should say.

Ta, he didn’t stop it for long enough then

[Lew-T]

13 hours ago, Alessandro said:

I was watching on sky last night - are you talking about the Nahki pen shout?

IMO - it would have been a soft one. Nahki gets slightly ahead of the defender, both players had arms on each other IIRC, ball not really under control and it looked like Wells 'left' his legs trailing looking for contact then went down, quite softly. Think the commentators said, not a penalty. Certainly wasn't stonewall - but you've seen them given!

R.E other key flash points, it's a poor night for the officials - 1) offside goal 2) Norwood red. Generally ref lost control and you could see it coming - Sheff Utd very cynical. 

I think it’s a clumsy shove from their player on Wells, so I wouldn’t say it’s soft at all. The Sheff Utd lad runs right across Wells, shoves him away whilst unbalanced and falls over.

It was more than your average shoulder to shoulder IMO.

[The Constant Rabbit]

After a good nights sleep......

That foul by Norwood ranks up there with one of the worst fouls I have ever seen not given.

 

Potentially leg breaking, career ending with deliberate intent - disgraceful.

 

I'm not one for retrospective action from the FA normally (except to overturn incorrect Red Cards) - but my god, if Norwood doesn't get some form of sanction against him, then there is no justice left in football.

An apology to Williams would be a good start.

 

I have no idea what goes through a blokes mind to make them want to break an opponents leg in front of 17,000 people, live on TV.

 

At the very least City should be asking for a 'please explain' from the FA regarding the refereeing over that 'tackle'.

[Olé]

18 hours ago, Davefevs said:

It is possible retrospective action could be taken…but I wouldn’t hold your breath!

They’ll study the McBurnie tackle and then give Bailey Wright a three match ban.

On a more serious note (and I deliberately left it 24 hours to come on OTIB as I was fuming - instead I put my energy into getting hold of the Sky footage as @Curr Avon highlighted) - in the run up to the game Nigel Pearson spoke at length to Sky chapter and verse about this club being too nice and about making us more streetwise. It was a great interview.

But clearly he's so far failed because the only difference in severity between the Tanner and McBurnie tackle is their team reacted with apoplexy, and we didn't. They knew what they were doing, even if it was half as bad they'd have milked it to give the ref something else to distract him. But the point is once they scored it was dark arts from then on to the end.

They were either gaming the ref or in his ear. As @1960maaan points out they even made the feeble ref jog around after them just to give them their bookings. They completely owned the ref by the end. So who from our side was getting on at the ref to jolt some sense into him? Who from our side was reacting with fury in the same way at the McBurnie tackle?

No one.

I really like Nigel Pearson and I liked that interview but I'll take what he said with a pinch of salt until I see his side actually play with that collective siege mentality and demanding, single minded attitude to all around them including the ref.

[Midred]

43 minutes ago, Olé said:

They’ll study the McBurnie tackle and then give Bailey Wright a three match ban.

On a more serious note (and I deliberately left it 24 hours to come on OTIB as I was fuming - instead I put my energy into getting hold of the Sky footage as @Curr Avon highlighted) - in the run up to the game Nigel Pearson spoke at length to Sky chapter and verse about this club being too nice and about making us more streetwise. It was a great interview.

But clearly he's so far failed because the only difference in severity between the Tanner and McBurnie tackle is their team reacted with apoplexy, and we didn't. They knew what they were doing, even if it was half as bad they'd have milked it to give the ref something else to distract him. But the point is once they scored it was dark arts from then on to the end.

They were either gaming the ref or in his ear. As @1960maaan points out they even made the feeble ref jog around after them just to give them their bookings. They completely owned the ref by the end. So who from our side was getting on at the ref to jolt some sense into him? Who from our side was reacting with fury in the same way at the McBurnie tackle?

No one.

I really like Nigel Pearson and I liked that interview but I'll take what he said with a pinch of salt until I see his side actually play with that collective siege mentality and demanding, single minded attitude to all around them including the ref.

Trouble is, every time our players get in the ref's ear they get booked for dissent.

[downendcity]

11 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

For me human error is part of football. Officials make mistakes yes, but the players make a whole lot more!.

I don’t want the ‘perfect’ game, I want football as it always has been, unpredictable. 
I hate the way the game is going,it’s not a tv programme, it’s a sport where anything can happen.

Plymouth v Exeter on Monday night was the sort of game I want to watch, none of this VAR rubbish. Just give me good honest football without the cheating and diving….. please. 

He stops his watch when he feels he has to, it’s really that simple Dave. Or one of his watches I should say.

Not sure his watch would let him.

[downendcity]

10 hours ago, The Constant Rabbit said:

After a good nights sleep......

That foul by Norwood ranks up there with one of the worst fouls I have ever seen not given.

 

Potentially leg breaking, career ending with deliberate intent - disgraceful.

 

I'm not one for retrospective action from the FA normally (except to overturn incorrect Red Cards) - but my god, if Norwood doesn't get some form of sanction against him, then there is no justice left in football.

An apology to Williams would be a good start.

 

I have no idea what goes through a blokes mind to make them want to break an opponents leg in front of 17,000 people, live on TV.

 

At the very least City should be asking for a 'please explain' from the FA regarding the refereeing over that 'tackle'.

Reminded me of this one ( other than Keane's was borne out of revenge!)

[W-S-M Seagull]

2 hours ago, Olé said:

They’ll study the McBurnie tackle and then give Bailey Wright a three match ban.

On a more serious note (and I deliberately left it 24 hours to come on OTIB as I was fuming - instead I put my energy into getting hold of the Sky footage as @Curr Avon highlighted) - in the run up to the game Nigel Pearson spoke at length to Sky chapter and verse about this club being too nice and about making us more streetwise. It was a great interview.

But clearly he's so far failed because the only difference in severity between the Tanner and McBurnie tackle is their team reacted with apoplexy, and we didn't. They knew what they were doing, even if it was half as bad they'd have milked it to give the ref something else to distract him. But the point is once they scored it was dark arts from then on to the end.

They were either gaming the ref or in his ear. As @1960maaan points out they even made the feeble ref jog around after them just to give them their bookings. They completely owned the ref by the end. So who from our side was getting on at the ref to jolt some sense into him? Who from our side was reacting with fury in the same way at the McBurnie tackle?

No one.

I really like Nigel Pearson and I liked that interview but I'll take what he said with a pinch of salt until I see his side actually play with that collective siege mentality and demanding, single minded attitude to all around them including the ref.

I remember Lee Johnson once saying something about the Wolves bench I think it might have been. How each and every single person on that bench jumped up at every decision and he bemoaned that we don't do that. 

We are too nice, that's our culture. I think that probably comes from the fact SL is really nice and wants his clubs to win the right way, because his clubs are a reflection on him. I think the nice direction comes from SL. I think Nige may have to have a very difficult conversation with him that in order for us to succeed, we need to add these dark arts to our game. No one likes it, but if you don't do it, you lose. 

I've never really seen a season like this in the Championship, pretty much most games I've seen us play and other Championship games on TV, the shithousery is like I've never seen before. I don't know if that's because the league is so poor or what. Burnley aside, it seems the shithousery teams are doing pretty well. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

24 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I remember Lee Johnson once saying something about the Wolves bench I think it might have been. How each and every single person on that bench jumped up at every decision and he bemoaned that we don't do that. 

We are too nice, that's our culture. I think that probably comes from the fact SL is really nice and wants his clubs to win the right way, because his clubs are a reflection on him. I think the nice direction comes from SL. I think Nige may have to have a very difficult conversation with him that in order for us to succeed, we need to add these dark arts to our game. No one likes it, but if you don't do it, you lose. 

I've never really seen a season like this in the Championship, pretty much most games I've seen us play and other Championship games on TV, the shithousery is like I've never seen before. I don't know if that's because the league is so poor or what. Burnley aside, it seems the shithousery teams are doing pretty well. 

The problem is, how do we square the circle given that we seem to get penalised more often than many for similar offences.

How do we do this more smartly may be another way of looking at it? Did we not get 2-3 booked at Sheffield United last season for kicking the ball away? Yellow card can be fine but is a tight rope.

Causation isn't correlation but 17th for fouls committed vs 3rd for yellow cards received is a bit of a mismatch??

There are loads of similar stats if the figures are right and we delve into them correctly. Why for example have Luton only received 28 yellow cards despite being 2nd for fouls committed?

Why did us and Birmingham jointly each have 9 penalties awarded against despite them being 2nd and us being 19th in Fouls Committed? Last season I mean.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[W-S-M Seagull]

17 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The problem is, how do we square the circle given that we seem to get penalised more often than many for similar offences.

How do we do this more smartly may be another way of looking at it? Did we not get 2-3 booked at Sheffield United last season for kicking the ball away? Yellow card can be fine but is a tight rope.

Causation isn't correlation but 17th for fouls committed vs 3rd for yellow cards received is a bit of a mismatch??

There are loads of similar stats if the figures are right and we delve into them correctly. Why for example have Luton only received 28 yellow cards despite being 2nd for fouls committed?

Why did us and Birmingham jointly each have 9 penalties awarded against despite them being 2nd and us being 19th in Fouls Committed? Last season I mean.

By changing perceptions? 

From the outside, we are considered a nice club. Where as Sheffield Utd have a bit of a reputation. When they do something a bit naughty it's "well its Sheffield Utd, that's what they do" where as when we do it it's "oh you're Bristol City, you're not supposed to do this" 

That's the only thing I can think of. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

By changing perceptions? 

From the outside, we are considered a nice club. Where as Sheffield Utd have a bit of a reputation. When they do something a bit naughty it's "well its Sheffield Utd, that's what they do" where as when we do it it's "oh you're Bristol City, you're not supposed to do this" 

That's the only thing I can think of. 

Matches should be judged individually and on merit. Although I understand how reputation can carry, e.g. if a player goes down easily.

Perhaps, and that's an interesting argument though it was Warnock and others, probably not so much under Wilder but he was quite a footballing manager. I digress.

The foul to yellow card ratio, while quite dry is also quite revealing. I don't have time now but might make a couple of graphs for that across this and last season, likewise my work on Shot/Penalty ratios which I might restart soon.

Yet the fact that we are 17th for fouls shows that we are far from a dirty side, and more sinned against than sinned by some way.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Picture speaks a thousand words as they say. @W-S-M Seagull

Decent spread of sides reputation wise etc in this snapshot.

As we can see, proportionately we surely can't be the only ones wirh a softer reputation, perhaps Swansea another? Reading are in a similar bracket.

Then again Reading when it comes to penalties are much better off.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[GrahamC]

4 hours ago, Olé said:

They’ll study the McBurnie tackle and then give Bailey Wright a three match ban.

On a more serious note (and I deliberately left it 24 hours to come on OTIB as I was fuming - instead I put my energy into getting hold of the Sky footage as @Curr Avon highlighted) - in the run up to the game Nigel Pearson spoke at length to Sky chapter and verse about this club being too nice and about making us more streetwise. It was a great interview.

But clearly he's so far failed because the only difference in severity between the Tanner and McBurnie tackle is their team reacted with apoplexy, and we didn't. They knew what they were doing, even if it was half as bad they'd have milked it to give the ref something else to distract him. But the point is once they scored it was dark arts from then on to the end.

They were either gaming the ref or in his ear. As @1960maaan points out they even made the feeble ref jog around after them just to give them their bookings. They completely owned the ref by the end. So who from our side was getting on at the ref to jolt some sense into him? Who from our side was reacting with fury in the same way at the McBurnie tackle?

No one.

I really like Nigel Pearson and I liked that interview but I'll take what he said with a pinch of salt until I see his side actually play with that collective siege mentality and demanding, single minded attitude to all around them including the ref.

Under Pearson I have seen far more evidence of us doing this, Weimann (when he was a target of the FBC podcast) was frequently being castigated on here too by one poster for repeatedly moaning at the ref. James also does this, so do Martin & King.

Interesting to me that these are all players he has signed or re-signed, I also noticed Max O’Leary was straight in there confronting George Baldock in the post foul brawl.

I don’t know how we square the circle over being a team that is given far too few penalties & disproportionately more bookings compared to fouls committed, but agree that we do need to continue to work at being less of a soft touch, not only physically but mentally.

Edited November 3, 2022 by GrahamC

[Alessandro]

13 hours ago, Lew-T said:

I think it’s a clumsy shove from their player on Wells, so I wouldn’t say it’s soft at all. The Sheff Utd lad runs right across Wells, shoves him away whilst unbalanced and falls over.

It was more than your average shoulder to shoulder IMO.

Fair enough, I’d like to see it again to be honest.

I think whenever I see a pen shout I try and think, “how would I feel if it was given against us?”

In this case, maybe a little hard done by - yeah there’s contact and it’s clumsy from the defender but first view thought it was 50/50 on pushing and shoving and then Wells looked for it a bit?

As I said though I’ve seen them given and we don’t seem to be getting rub of green on these types of decisions….