Middlesborough away match thread

[David Brent]

49 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Don't delete their comments mate, please. 

They've made me laugh & it shows them up as the gobshite bully boy tossers that they are, for everyone else to see

Hypocrite warning 

[1960maaan]

Not been keeping up with the thread, but was the Pen shout a Pen.?

[Sheltons Army]

1 minute ago, JoeAman08 said:

I agree but once ffp is safe for teams I think wages will go back up. Not saying same level as before but there will always be teams gambling for promotion. The biggest killer is every championship team can convince themselves they are close. 
 

We will see who we can resign. I’d really only mind losing Wells I think at this point other than the boys that may get sold.
 

Dasilva is solid but can get picked on defensively at times and he isn’t aggressive enough for me going forward. Lack of speed and strength hurts him. 

Bentley was a good servant but got Bajic in for a reason. Think Max needs a new deal though? I’d re up max and let bentley walk. 
 

Kalas has been fine but think maybe a good one to let walk so we can get in a top cb target. 
 

Massengo was always going to leave. Martin can go. Klose same as Martin. Both just past being good squad players imo. Chuck King into that as well. Probably missing a couple but you are right. With what? Up to 10 leaving I think only 3-4 a big loss. But they will truly leave big holes to fill. 

3 or 4 of those probably equate to about %25 of our current wage spend

In theory we should be able to add 6 or more on the same spend

UnFortunately their wages are hampering us , and whether any of the established big earners leaving will leave such a big hole is , IMHO , debateable

[Bar BS3]

8 minutes ago, joe jordans teeth said:

We obviously won’t be as strong next season,we need to bring money in which means players will go,you are just stating the bleeding obvious 

Yes, it is bleeding obvious, I agree. 

The problem is - many people are giving NP incredible leeway, in light of results & league position, which would not (has not) been tolerated previously - in belief of a 3 year rebuilding project. 

That's all very well IF that project is showing some signs of progress. 

So say that being weaker at the end of that 3 year project, is stating the bleeding obvious - then isn't the a serious flaw in the project...? 

[GrahamC]

4 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Yep. I think we will also share in the money that FGR get for Wollacott. 

https://www.fifa.com/tournaments/mens/worldcup/qatar2022/media-releases/fifa-distributes-more-than-usd-200m-to-clubs-across-the-world

He’s at Charlton now.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, daored said:

Agreed, is Pearson without criticism of course he isn’t but the problems at the club last  longer than Pearson’s time here 

If us “Nige lovers” didn’t have to spend so much time going back over the same old shit about the context of the mess, the “Nige out” crew might actually get to read our true views.

Us Nige lovers, don’t think he’s the messiah, nor he hasn’t pulled our pants down, but we have an appreciation of the size of the task at hand, and importantly recognise the impact that has.

To suggest we should be in a better place than when he took over, is basically an impressive display of ignorance on their part.

1 hour ago, Bar BS3 said:

As I said earlier, on another thread - NP needed time, after last season, so show the development he could instill, after having the summer transfer window.

what were you REALLY expecting after a summer window that brought in:

- one free transfer from this league (albeit a likely upgrade)

- one free transfer from Lg1 that many on here had never heard of

- one free transfer from Lg2 (promoted) - for a minimal amount of compo

- one GK from Lg2 in France who is 20

versus those that went out the door (O’Dowda, Palmer, Cundy, Bakinson plus other minor players not worth listing)?  Whichever fill your cup has, it was hardly a window that had you dreaming of top 6 was it?  It was low key, and for me, a case of thank god we’ve brought anything in with the financial situation we were in.

I said back then, that we needed to give it until the world Cup break & then that would give a sensible, natural timing to assess where we are.

and in your opinion it’s bye-bye Nige.

I had fully expected that to be a satisfactory mid table position, or had hoped we'd be well set for a top 6 push - at one point, upto the Burnley, that looked highly possible.

on our day with most fit and in form, we can match most teams in this division.  However most “realistic” people looked at our W4 D2 L2 start, having been W0 D1 L2 initially and saw Norwich and Burnley (both away) as meaning we’d probably be W4 D2 L4….mid-table.  Plucking those 8 games where you’d argue a fairly favourable set of fixtures, when compared to taking the 10 games.  Pushing top 6 was very, very unlikely, and for you to base you expectation on that following the window we had, frankly I find to be bonkers.

Since then, we have reverted to type and now, despite the utter delusion/blind faith that some are displaying - we are staring directly into a scrap that everyone thought we are/were/should be too good to be facing.

so if we’ve reverted to type, why are your expectations so high?

The answer...? There's no magic answer. 

The question is more relevant - is NP getting the best from what we've got...?

you keep using phrases like “getting the best”…you should be asking “has Nige got them performing at expected levels, or is it higher or lower.  They aren’t gonna play at their best every week, so stop saying is he “getting the best”.  On occasion like at Blackburn we see the best, but then again we see their worst at Brum.  It is completely unrealistic for this squad to play at or near the levels of Blackburn (a) each week.

I'd say the answer is a resounding & prolonged - NO!

Is he getting a reasonable set of levels out them?  Yes he is.  Could it be better, yes, could it worse, yes.

And like this summer, what are you expecting next summer?  Maybe ponder answering that until you see the financial results, and then reflect what that mean for anticipated squad building going forward.

 

[Jerseybean]

NP post match: https://youtu.be/noDFT7niiT0

 

[Sheltons Army]

Just now, Bar BS3 said:

Yes, it is bleeding obvious, I agree. 

The problem is - many people are giving NP incredible leeway, in light of results & league position, which would not (has not) been tolerated previously - in belief of a 3 year rebuilding project. 

That's all very well IF that project is showing some signs of progress. 

So say that being weaker at the end of that 3 year project, is stating the bleeding obvious - then isn't the a serious flaw in the project...? 

Are you thinking about Johnson again........that project........ we let him sign 72 players , loudly backed by some as yourself

Now that’s a failed project .....ohhhh.......that also wrecked our finances....and left us in an almighty hole. 4 years later .........that project   ?

[Sheltons Army]

This Pearson bloke who isn’t making the best of the resources he’s got

 

Is this the same bloke whose produced the best form in a City shirt from 

 

JD ......arguably (Though not recently)

Vyner

O’Leary

Pring

Wells

Weimann

Semenyo

Martin (Though not recently)

Add the introduction and cultivation of 

Scott

Conway

Benarous

 

 

How does that fit with not getting the best out of players 
#Confused 

[Bar BS3]

2 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

Maybe we are getting the best from them. Maybe we are actually over achieving. Your prediction, thankfully, will be very wide of the mark, with the exception of Scott and Semenyo. 

You keep saying that we are underachieving, but that is based on hope and is an easy thing to say with no foundation or fact. It is an opinion, just as mine is that we are overachieving. IMHO, for the wages we pay Wells, Kalas, Bentley and JD, we will sign 6 or more players that will make us a better squad and first team. 

So, it is like talking to a brick wall, because you continually have people that disagree with you. Thats life, it is not a brick wall, it is a belief, that you are completely wrong. It is very clear that you want to always be negative, some people do that, others prefer to look on the positives and be realistic in where the club is going. For your deep depression, I see a club that is finally putting in place the essential ingredients to a very successful club, that does not lose £65 M as in the last 2 years, because, when SL has gone, others will not sustain those losses and we have risked our very existence. 

In any case, what team would you have played today ? It was a strange selection, but then look at the bench. What options were there ?  What players are not performing ? 

Anyway, I do not agree with anything you post, I find it negative and nebulus in extreme. But you have every right to your opinion. 

I respect your points & opinions - but I'm not sure how believing that we are better than our form & league position are, are being negative. 

I'm really not a negative type atall - quite the opposite actually - although I do see that's probably hard to see when I'm talking about NP - and that's because, despite being delighted by his appointment - it's been a huge disappointment to see the lack of progress on the pitch. 

Even taking into account the cost cutting & lack of funds to spend (which I do fully appreciate, despite what some seem to think) based purely on what we have got - I think it's been really disappointing. 

We've gone from a position & performances of real promise earlier in the season - and regressed to a situation that looks worrying at this point in time. 

I believe we are to good to be in serious trouble - yet we are heading rapidly into it. 

Hopefully a return to form at some point will ease those concerns and we can finish the season in some comfort. 

Based on the past 20 months, I'm not sure if there's much to base those hopes on. 

[The Original OTIB]

2 hours ago, The Original OTIB said:

Today suggests Vyner reslly a CB

Suggests maybe the controlling 1 rather than L or R of a 3. That's what I mean.

[Numero Uno]

15 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

I agree but once ffp is safe for teams I think wages will go back up. Not saying same level as before but there will always be teams gambling for promotion. The biggest killer is every championship team can convince themselves they are close. 
 

We will see who we can resign. I’d really only mind losing Wells I think at this point other than the boys that may get sold. Edit: bad wording I would like to resign Wells if possible. Most other ooc I think we can replace easily enough. 
 

Dasilva is solid but can get picked on defensively at times and he isn’t aggressive enough for me going forward. Lack of speed and strength hurts him. 

Bentley was a good servant but got Bajic in for a reason. Think Max needs a new deal though? I’d re up max and let bentley walk. 
 

Kalas has been fine but think maybe a good one to let walk so we can get in a top cb target. 
 

Massengo was always going to leave. Martin can go. Klose same as Martin. Both just past being good squad players imo. Chuck King into that as well. Probably missing a couple but you are right. With what? Up to 10 leaving I think only 3-4 a big loss. But they will truly leave big holes to fill. 

Ideally I would like to see a few shifted in January if possible and maybe one or two in. Massengo is the big one for me - waste of a wage. I’m guessing he’ll sign a pre-con with a French club and bugger off for nothing. Not a great return on the outlay.

Wells and Kalas will be on half their current wages wherever they go. If we can get Martin out and bring a younger lad in during the window that would be great business. If Max carries on his form and Bagic shows signs of being up to it I think Bentley will be told he can leave.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Curr Avon said:

The outside centre-backs in a 3 need to work in tandem with their wing-backs.

I didn't see today's game. Was Zac let down by Semenyo and Weimann?

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

One million percent in Semenyo’s case. As I said if Sykes is out there it is far less likely they would have scored their equaliser.

45 minutes ago, Engvall’s Splinter said:

Zac was poor regardless of wingbacks. Many of the positions he found himself in were bewildering. Tinnion referenced the same continually on the commentary, especially in the first half. Often to tight to Klose as shown with their goal. Throw in a lazy backwards pass which Boro jumped on too - Zac seemed off the boil from the start.  Semenyo was poor today across the board both defensively and offensively (has been for some time). We were on the back foot for long periods of the game with the midfield fairly deep. Pring, James, Conway and MOL the real credit takers for us. 

I so agree.  His positional play and marking of Forss (in the main) was hideous.  Thankfully he made a few decent challenges, blocks, and stuck at it, so I give him credit for that.  

A good few seasons back, Flint (RCB2) had Adam Matthews playing so tight to him, we had nothing on the right side of the pitch.  Flint was obviously not fit, but it completely left us unbalanced.

Today reminded me of that.

Of course, maybe Klose was asking him to play so narrow, but that seems unlikely after the way they’d played together recently.  But even so, he didn’t even get tight too Forss.

I honestly don’t think I’d apportion any blame to Antoine or Andi, although we seemed better with Andi on Giles and Antoine on Jones.

Tinnion’s Co-commentary was spot on today.

Maybe a couple of games of 110% concentration and guiding others left him mentally fatigued…it can happen.

Williams got through a helluva lot of work off the ball today to help cover a gurt big hole, that he couldn’t impact the game when he did get it.

33 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

I'd imagine he'll be rested for Lincoln, and against Watford who knows.

Don't forget that the Club gets US$9,000 for every day he's at the world cup. It's not just him.

Think the money goes up for post-group games too.

[Sleepy1968]

2 hours ago, Red Exile said:

Good point. Blimey...never a comfortable watch is it?

Max coming into his own - impressive.

As, no doubt, was the poster from earlier on in this thread who was watching 'porno football'.

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Ideally I would like to see a few shifted in January if possible and maybe one or two in. Massengo is the big one for me - waste of a wage. I’m guessing he’ll sign a pre-con with a French club and bugger off for nothing. Not a great return on the outlay.

Wells and Kalas will be on half their current wages wherever they go. If we can get Martin out and bring a younger lad in during the window that would be great business. If Max carries on his form and Bagic shows signs of being up to it I think Bentley will be told he can leave.

That would be nice if we can manufacture some funds in the next window.

Got to say, Max has impressed me more than I expected.  8 conceded in 7 games, is an improvement, but it’s everything else.  I don’t get nervous with him anymore.  He was outstanding today.  Has he come of age?

[Gazred]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Got to say, Max has impressed me more than I expected.  8 conceded in 7 games, is an improvement, but it’s everything else.  I don’t get nervous with him anymore.  He was outstanding today.  Has he come of age?

I think in a word Dave, maturity.

How, when that clicked i don't know but he's definitely a more commanding presence than he's been before.

Well played i say   

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

That would be nice if we can manufacture some funds in the next window.

Got to say, Max has impressed me more than I expected.  8 conceded in 7 games, is an improvement, but it’s everything else.  I don’t get nervous with him anymore.  He was outstanding today.  Has he come of age?

We’ve had this convo before. It’s the belief and a slight amount of arrogance you need that is key. Recent performances have shown the ability to perform at the level is there. If he’s starting to get it right in his head then I’d have no worries saying to Bentley “no need to sign your contract”. 8 goals conceded in 7 behind our back line is a very decent return too.

[Sleepy1968]

51 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

Let’s hope they get to the final then

Let hope he gets in the final squad. Certainly not a shoe in based on recent form.

[Davefevs]

Right, onto today’s actual performance.

Firstly, players unavailable - Naismith, Atkinson, Kalas…many people’s first choice back 3!  Wilson and Tanner too.

It meant a makeshift line-up.

Most OTIBers wanted Dasilva left out.  A fair few wanted Sykes left out too.  Nobody wants Andy King or Chris Martin to start.  Joe Low nor Sam Bell are gonna start over the 11 that did.  We’ve no idea whether any players were suffering from the flu bug either.

So, Nige went with just about the best eleven he could, even though some played out of their true position.

For me, unless we really played well it was gonna be a tough afternoon.

Vyner’s performance has already been covered and some!  I think it had a major impact on others too.

Conway was excellent.

Pring was excellent, especially as he often got dragged out to deal with Jones.

Klose looked like he was lacking match sharpness (no surprise), but stuck to his task and made some crucial tackles, headers and blocks.

James tried desperately to keep us in shape / structured and was often clearing up mess.

Williams must’ve ran some km today without the ball, as did Weimann…our LWB popping up in the move and scoring the goal as I wondered whether we might be about to go up a gear and finish them off, especially when Conway set up Wells to go close soon after.

Wells maybe not at his best, but worked hard.

Semenyo disappointing especially with Giles on a yellow, I felt he played really “safe”.

Scott, did fine although couldn’t get on the ball enough.  He was the player who triggered the press from Hackney’s square ball and strode away to feed Weimann for our opener.

We just couldn’t keep the ball, and that led to us ceding possession / territory.

A good point, a disappointment in terms of technical performance, but not from a gutsy perspective.

Still not sure what to make of Joe Low coming on for Weimann with 8 minutes to go, but proves how stretched we are at the mo’!

[joe jordans teeth]

49 minutes ago, Jerseybean said:

NP post match: https://youtu.be/noDFT7niiT0

 

Did he say bar bs3 is correct I’m not the messiah or not 

[pongo88]

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

In my view the sooner Semenyo buggers off to the World Cup the better. Been playing within himself imo. My gut feeling is he’ll come back looking to get that Prem move in the summer and the “output” will increase massively.

He’s definitely not been as good as the second half of last season, but I’m not sure he’s playing within himself. The reality is, since he came back from Newport, he’s been wildly inconsistent. The form at the end of last season raised expectations, but there have been periods when the end product didn’t match the energy 

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

Weimann as well for me. Scored the goal, but also played about 4 different positions today and was the best option in each of them.

Weimann playing in 4 positions just about sums up the state we’re in. On the one hand it’s fantastic that we have such versatile players. On the other hand, it’s just crazy and illustrates how thin the squad is. I’d love it if NP could pick 11 players in a certain formation and, with the odd substitution, stick with it for 90 minutes 

1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

James & Williams aren’t. I don’t expect we will have to enter a bidding war to get King to sign another deal..

Wells is on money we cannot afford so if someone will offer him a better deal he’ll walk. I expect Klose to retire, he said he was thinking about it last summer, Dasilva is someone who is at the crossroads, for me he isn’t a shoe in to even get another offer.

People said this last season.

Wells is definitely on money we can’t afford but, taking into consideration his age and the current financial situation, will any club offer a better deal? IMO I don’t think he’ll get another contract as good as his present one. He’ll probably get offers from other clubs for less than what he’s currently earning and possibly an offer from City. Whether he stays or goes could be based on how low and how long the offers will be 

[Sleepy1968]

20 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That would be nice if we can manufacture some funds in the next window.

Got to say, Max has impressed me more than I expected.  8 conceded in 7 games, is an improvement, but it’s everything else.  I don’t get nervous with him anymore.  He was outstanding today.  Has he come of age?

Some of his long clearances leave me scratching my head, but he's younger, and cheaper, and probably as good as Bents, after factoring in first team 'experience'. He'll be the one of the two who'll gets a contract offer unless he really cucks up now. City's # 1.

 

[Gazred]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Conway was excellent

Just to single this out for a moment, i think he's put himself in the same value bracket as Semenyo, his all round game was again top notch. Would not be surprised to see interest in Jan.

[JoeAman08]

53 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

3 or 4 of those probably equate to about %25 of our current wage spend

In theory we should be able to add 6 or more on the same spend

UnFortunately their wages are hampering us , and whether any of the established big earners leaving will leave such a big hole is , IMHO , debateable

Oh yea I agree. Value for money wise is pretty bad. I think I said this about Kalas pre covid. Top defender but on 25k a week could we find someone 90% of the player but half the wages. With saying I’d like to keep Wells I am realistic. If he is aiming for 20k a week or more we should move on quickly but if we can get him in the Weimann range or close to it, I think he is worth keeping. 

 

41 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Ideally I would like to see a few shifted in January if possible and maybe one or two in. Massengo is the big one for me - waste of a wage. I’m guessing he’ll sign a pre-con with a French club and bugger off for nothing. Not a great return on the outlay.

Wells and Kalas will be on half their current wages wherever they go. If we can get Martin out and bring a younger lad in during the window that would be great business. If Max carries on his form and Bagic shows signs of being up to it I think Bentley will be told he can leave.

It would be great to do something in January both in and out. Tough month to do so but have to be proactive. 
 

I’d keep Wells on half his wages. Kalas I think I’d want a bigger more dominant CB. Agree about Bentley

[joe jordans teeth]

53 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Yes, it is bleeding obvious, I agree. 

The problem is - many people are giving NP incredible leeway, in light of results & league position, which would not (has not) been tolerated previously - in belief of a 3 year rebuilding project. 

That's all very well IF that project is showing some signs of progress. 

So say that being weaker at the end of that 3 year project, is stating the bleeding obvious - then isn't the a serious flaw in the project...? 

Look I respect your opinions but they are not half a load of tosh,if bringing in youngsters who let’s be honest are a good 2 years away from being ready to play because he has no money to spend is a flaw then you are correct

[joe jordans teeth]

5 minutes ago, Gazred said:

Just to single this out for a moment, i think he's put himself in the same value bracket as Semenyo, his all round game was again top notch. Would not be surprised to see interest in Jan.

He’s worth more a lot more seeing as semenyo is running the contract down 

[Bar BS3]

2 minutes ago, joe jordans teeth said:

Look I respect your opinions but they are not half a load of tosh,if bringing in youngsters who let’s be honest are a good 2 years away from being ready to play because he has no money to spend is a flaw then you are correct

Scott, Conway, Semenyo..? Obviously not. 

I assume you mean Bell - & I'd agree. 

I was delighted to see Joe Low get involved today - he's highly rated & certainly sounds like our potential next big thing. 

But beyond Bell & Low, which youngsters are being relied upon 2 years ahead of time..? 

It was a shame that Benarous got injured - I thought he was showing more promise that Alex Scott last season - although Scott has truly blossomed this season. 

[redsquirrel]

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Right, onto today’s actual performance.

Firstly, players unavailable - Naismith, Atkinson, Kalas…many people’s first choice back 3!  Wilson and Tanner too.

It meant a makeshift line-up.

Most OTIBers wanted Dasilva left out.  A fair few wanted Sykes left out too.  Nobody wants Andy King or Chris Martin to start.  Joe Low nor Sam Bell are gonna start over the 11 that did.  We’ve no idea whether any players were suffering from the flu bug either.

So, Nige went with just about the best eleven he could, even though some played out of their true position.

For me, unless we really played well it was gonna be a tough afternoon.

Vyner’s performance has already been covered and some!  I think it had a major impact on others too.

Conway was excellent.

Pring was excellent, especially as he often got dragged out to deal with Jones.

Klose looked like he was lacking match sharpness (no surprise), but stuck to his task and made some crucial tackles, headers and blocks.

James tried desperately to keep us in shape / structured and was often clearing up mess.

Williams must’ve ran some km today without the ball, as did Weimann…our LWB popping up in the move and scoring the goal as I wondered whether we might be about to go up a gear and finish them off, especially when Conway set up Wells to go close soon after.

Wells maybe not at his best, but worked hard.

Semenyo disappointing especially with Giles on a yellow, I felt he played really “safe”.

Scott, did fine although couldn’t get on the ball enough.  He was the player who triggered the press from Hackney’s square ball and strode away to feed Weimann for our opener.

We just couldn’t keep the ball, and that led to us ceding possession / territory.

A good point, a disappointment in terms of technical performance, but not from a gutsy perspective.

Still not sure what to make of Joe Low coming on for Weimann with 8 minutes to go, but proves how stretched we are at the mo’!

i looked at the pre kick off line up and thought 'if this clicks, we could score a bucket load but concede a lot too'  as it turned out,they found the defensive weaknesses and battered us into being very cautious which to go in leading at ht was absolute bonus. i thought sykes would have come on for semenyo just to have another proper defender in there. and maybe hope for another goal on the break but it was a bit too much for such a makeshift side to guess who would be where for the breaks. more than happy with a lucky point and not going to single anyone out for criticism as there was no regularity or continuity in that team other than james,scott,wells and conway

[Jerseybean]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I’m in to see David Rennie tomorrow morning, I’ve kicked and headed so many balls away today from my settee.  I can feel the fluid in my knees already!

Yep, a hard watch today.

It’s a cardiologist I need after that! 

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, Gazred said:

Just to single this out for a moment, i think he's put himself in the same value bracket as Semenyo, his all round game was again top notch. Would not be surprised to see interest in Jan.

Just posted elsewhere that O’Leary has surpassed my expectations, but Tommy, I’ve been pretty convinced he had something from the first few times I saw him.  To be doing it at Champ level so young is incredible when you think about it.  He’s a diamond.

7 minutes ago, joe jordans teeth said:

Look I respect your opinions but they are not half a load of tosh,if bringing in youngsters who let’s be honest are a good 2 years away from being ready to play because he has no money to spend is a flaw then you are correct

O’Leary 26 (A)

Vyner 25 (A)

Low 20 (A) for Weimann 31 (£2.500m)

Klose 34 (free)

Pring 24 (A)

Dasilva 24 (£2.000m) for Semenyo 22 (A)

Williams 25 (£1.250m)

James 31 (free)

Scott 19 (A)

Bell 20 (A) for Conway 20 (A)

Wells 32 (£2.800m)

“Ballsy”!!!