Middlesborough away match thread

[Super]

14 minutes ago, MC RISK77 said:

Yeah that was my point mate- just feels like their is no buzz about this World Cup at all currently.

There will be once it starts.

[Davefevs]

Well said @petehinton

[firstdivision]

15 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

FWIW I don’t think he’s doing a brilliant job, but I’m pretty happy with how he’s steering this ship through difficult times.

Recruitment will be key.

Johnson wasn’t bad at all, but he wasn’t half a bloke who divided us.  He even divided me!!!  I liked some of the things he did, I disliked other things.

I do think he’d had his peak with us and it was long gone.  He couldn’t recreate 17/18.  The 18/19 season although finishing higher was not of the same calibre, and although we were 7th (after drawing with Fulham) as Covid struck, I think we were hanging on by our finger nails, as results were better than performances and had been for a long while.  It caught up with us / him post-covid and we fell back to 12th.

It was always going to be difficult to to compete with 5-8 parachute payment teams, but boy we spent some money trying to compete.

We hear RG talk about top 10 wages, but that’s coupled with bottom-end fees, I.e. free transfers.  We were spending £8m on a CB and paying top 6 wages to certain players.  We spent £25m(ish) on players in 19/20, not including loan fees, not including agent fees, not including the wage bill going up too.  It was the big push to playoffs.  And playoffs doesn’t mean promotion.  We tried to buy success.  We got carried away…and boy has it bitten us on the arse!

Careful, Dave. Admitting LJ wasn't all bad will get you some negative emojis on here. 

LJ could drive me mad as well - which manager wouldn't from time to time? - but I've always disliked the polarised nature of the LJ (bad) and NP (obviously good) debate among some. 

[The Coach]

Given the resources available. Lee Johnson is our worst manager I’ve seen at AG.

If Pearson had the resources Johnson had. I’d be confident we would be playing in the Premier League or at least got a taste of it. 

[NcnsBcfc]

2 minutes ago, The Coach said:

Given the resources available. Lee Johnson is our worst manager I’ve seen at AG.

If Pearson had the resources Johnson had. I’d be confident we would be playing in the Premier League or at least got a taste of it. 

I think the phrase that was used at the time was "clubs in the bag".

Certainly, we seemed to be collecting players under MA/LJ in order to carry on the perceived second-hand dealer conveyor belt approach towards buying and selling players. In the process we build up a large squad, that really didn't improve us much as a team.

Then when the market crashed, followed by covid, we had to have proverbial fire sales of fringe players that were nowhere near good enough. Impacting on our balance sheet in such a substantial way that 3 years later we are still dealing with the aftereffects.

Looking back at those days now, the direct transfer of Webster for Flint seemed to be the only well thought out one that would improve the squad. The others were as the above saying were just "clubs in the bag".

We really should have gone for quality over quantity with the transfer money bought into the club. But that would have gone against the transfer policy that MA used to in his own way bring perceived "sustainability" to the club as a whole.

It really was a pack of cards, and one that was doomed to failure over time, when the cupboards were bare.

Ho hum, roll on the summer, and let the rebuild continue........

[glynriley]

12 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

Careful, Dave. Admitting LJ wasn't all bad will get you some negative emojis on here. 

LJ could drive me mad as well - which manager wouldn't from time to time? - but I've always disliked the polarised nature of the LJ (bad) and NP (obviously good) debate among some. 

 

9 minutes ago, The Coach said:

Given the resources available. Lee Johnson is our worst manager I’ve seen at AG.

If Pearson had the resources Johnson had. I’d be confident we would be playing in the Premier League or at least got a taste of it. 

The polarisation with LJ is with the money spent. For a self confessed ‘coach’ LJ was quick to discard a player and buy / loan a replacement. See the likes of Walsh, Moore, Szmodics, Eisa etc..
 

NP is not a coach, he’s a manager, yet is getting more from young players and fringe players than LJ could. 
 

Ironically, the best we looked under LJ was when he had a smaller squad to play with and had to actually do some coaching. His problem came when when he had multiple choices, and he was then to quick to discard players rather than working with them. 
 

NP would give his eye teeth to have half of the funds available to LJ (68 players signed was it?). Instead he’s inherited a problem 5 years in the making, but is expected to sort it all out in 20 months. 

[Bar BS3]

2 hours ago, Engvall’s Splinter said:

Based on what though? I don’t mean the replacing of Pearson, I’m asking why Carrick? And why in a heartbeat? What has he done to replace Pearson in a heartbeat?

Purely on a hunch - as I said, it's a big risk appointment - but I think it's a shred one. 

High profile, but not glamorous. He's a switched on guy, who knows the game. 

It will be interesting to see how it pans out - but I have the feeling he's going to be a good appointment/have a good managerial career. 

[Midred]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

I’d take Pep in a heartbeat!!!

Why would Carrick come to us in our current situation?  It’s bonkers to throw names out like that.  We are unattractive currently.  No scope to develop the squad with external recruitment as it stands.  That might change next summer if we sell Semenyo, Scott or Conway.  But I don’t think anybody takes us on in Nov 22 for fear of not getting to next summer.

As has been said before, how good would the premier league managers be in an average club in the championship or below without access to some of the most expensive players in the world. 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

yep, he may well do that.  I’m just intrigued who SL thinks might want to join us as manager / head coach in our situation.

Me too.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Me too.

What type of manager with what background and experience would you want?

[italian dave]

1 hour ago, firstdivision said:

Careful, Dave. Admitting LJ wasn't all bad will get you some negative emojis on here. 

LJ could drive me mad as well - which manager wouldn't from time to time? - but I've always disliked the polarised nature of the LJ (bad) and NP (obviously good) debate among some. 

 

1 hour ago, The Coach said:

Given the resources available. Lee Johnson is our worst manager I’ve seen at AG.

If Pearson had the resources Johnson had. I’d be confident we would be playing in the Premier League or at least got a taste of it. 

100% @firstdivision. 

And I’ve often thought that one of the problems was that LJ didn’t have control of the resources. And the person who did was driven by money not football. 

It’s pure conjecture, but I’d have loved to have seen LJ minus Ashton and with a proper football person as a DoF, or something similar. I’d be equally confident that we’d be playing in the PL in that scenario. 

My sneaking feeling is that those things that went on that LJ once said he could write a book about were about players coming and going without his involvement.

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

What type of manager with what background and experience would you want?

I'm not Steve Lansdown- I've never appointed a manager. I can tell you what pies I think should be sold or what beer and cider should be served but even that is controversial as every bugger has their own personal preference. The average Championship Manager lasts between 2 and 3 seasons for one reason or another but usually due to a lack of results. Unless there's a secret club, I dont think any fan has ever had any input on managerial appointments.

Let's say, for arguments sake, I came up with a name - so what? You might agree and others might not but only one man makes the final decision of who is the target and then only one man decides if he wants the job. "We" dont  get an input- thankfully.

What is it about the right to criticise the performance of a Manager is invariably countered with the question of who you would appoint instead? I haven't a clue Dave- and despite my criticism, I have not once during the past Summer or this season  stated that I want Pearson out. I just want to see progress with what we have and from my point of view just don't see it as many others do. I pay my money and have my opinions at what I see. It is rarely the fans who make the decision to sack a Manager and never the fans who make the appointment.The only place you get 100% agreement is in a referendum  when putin is conducting it.

SL will make the decision about what he wants or who he wants but in the meantime , I'd just like to see Nige making progress and whilst that isnt happening, I'll continue to say it as I see it. In the meantime our back and forth is becoming a bit 'ground hog day'!

The good news is that if I'm wrong then it will be because City are on the up again which is the only thing I want to see

[italian dave]

2 hours ago, petehinton said:

Course, but I don’t see how multiple players missing multiple chances is down to Pearson. In the same way that Vyner’s multiple misplaced passes that gave Boro chances weren’t too. 
 

Pring 100% should’ve been involved earlier, big fan. Tanner, honestly I’m not so sure. Good player, but not sure he could’ve been much more involved up until now really. Sykes has been solid, and Wilson was naturally always gonna be ahead of him after coming in over the solid. 

No, I get that - just pointing out that there are two ways to look at it! 

Ultimately, yes it’s NPs fault of he keeps picking those players. But I’m not suggesting we’re at that point yet by any means. We’ve been top scorers in the league, and Vyner has been one of our best players for several weeks now.

I’m not as convinced by Sykes as you. And certainly not as an attacking force - and if yesterday was anything to go by that’s what the main purpose of our wing backs is! 

And, incidentally, if by “multiple” you mean more than one then maybe, but it wasn’t lots and it’s very unfair to lay that solely on Vyner yesterday. You can argue about his positional play, but in terms of misplaced passes he was no worse than Klose or James just for starters. 

[pillred]

9 hours ago, MC RISK77 said:

Christ what a different place this will be with two wins next week, before we can all have a month off watching a World Cup that no one seems to give a toss about right now.

Getting to 26 points if we beat stoke will cement mid table and allow all our injured players time to fully recuperate.

 

Aren't we playing Watford next Sat? 

[sticks 1969]

2 hours ago, Super said:

There will be once it starts.

Totally agree IF we get of to a good start the buzz soon comes back 

[IAmNick]

33 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

I'm not Steve Lansdown- I've never appointed a manager. I can tell you what pies I think should be sold or what beer and cider should be served but even that is controversial as every bugger has their own personal preference. The average Championship Manager lasts between 2 and 3 seasons for one reason or another but usually due to a lack of results. Unless there's a secret club, I dont think any fan has ever had any input on managerial appointments.

Let's say, for arguments sake, I came up with a name - so what? You might agree and others might not but only one man makes the final decision of who is the target and then only one man decides if he wants the job. "We" dont  get an input- thankfully.

What is it about the right to criticise the performance of a Manager is invariably countered with the question of who you would appoint instead? I haven't a clue Dave- and despite my criticism, I have not once during the past Summer or this season  stated that I want Pearson out. I just want to see progress with what we have and from my point of view just don't see it as many others do. I pay my money and have my opinions at what I see. It is rarely the fans who make the decision to sack a Manager and never the fans who make the appointment.The only place you get 100% agreement is in a referendum  when putin is conducting it.

SL will make the decision about what he wants or who he wants but in the meantime , I'd just like to see Nige making progress and whilst that isnt happening, I'll continue to say it as I see it. In the meantime our back and forth is becoming a bit 'ground hog day'!

The good news is that if I'm wrong then it will be because City are on the up again which is the only thing I want to see

I think the "so what" is to have a discussion about it, not that anyone expects you to be actually picking the new manager for the club. That's not a weird question to follow up with for me when someone thinks the manager isn't doing well enough.

I think in a few steps:

Are there managers out there who would do better than Pearson? Yes, definitely. He's not the greatest manager in the world, obviously.

Would they be interested by Bristol City? Some, probably.

Would they work under the intense financial constraints? A few, perhaps.

Would they also be capable of having the experience/input into the rest of the club as Pearson is? Mmmm, maybe a couple?

It's a big combination of factors that I think Pearson is about as good as it's going to be for now. Someone may just get the first team performing a bit better, but if that's at the expense of the other work that's a short term view for me. Each step in our chain above severely reduces the candidates.

Of course though I'm not saying nobody else could do the above, but I reckon we'd be taking a serious gamble and if it didn't pay off (and the odds would be pretty low) it'd be disaster, relegation, and god knows what - as it was the last couple of times we were in a similar situation.

I think that's partly why people want to know who you think would be a good replacement - we have a lot of boxes we need ticking, encompassing a really varied role compared to the manager/head coach at other clubs. It's a pretty small list imo.

Edited November 6, 2022 by IAmNick

[MC RISK77]

32 minutes ago, pillred said:

Aren't we playing Watford next Sat? 

Yeah we are I have had it as stoke in my head forever for some reason.

[Davefevs]

50 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

I'm not Steve Lansdown- I've never appointed a manager. I can tell you what pies I think should be sold or what beer and cider should be served but even that is controversial as every bugger has their own personal preference. The average Championship Manager lasts between 2 and 3 seasons for one reason or another but usually due to a lack of results.

I think it’s less than that!

Unless there's a secret club, I dont think any fan has ever had any input on managerial appointments.

Let's say, for arguments sake, I came up with a name - so what? You might agree and others might not but only one man makes the final decision of who is the target and then only one man decides if he wants the job. "We" dont  get an input- thankfully.

I’m not asking you for a name, I agree we’d all have varying opinions on each side of the fence, I’m asking you for a type…or a set of of characteristics, qualities, etc you would want.  If you give a name, give it in the context of a type.  E.g. “I’d like a Paul Warne type, promotions on his cv, works to a budget, brings on young players, gets on with it, doesn’t moan, etc”.  That’s what kind of reply I was looking for?

I wanted a Paul Cook-type when LJ was sacked.  Preferably Paul Cook himself!!

What is it about the right to criticise the performance of a Manager is invariably countered with the question of who you would appoint instead? I haven't a clue Dave- and despite my criticism, I have not once during the past Summer or this season  stated that I want Pearson out. I just want to see progress with what we have and from my point of view just don't see it as many others do. I pay my money and have my opinions at what I see. It is rarely the fans who make the decision to sack a Manager and never the fans who make the appointment.The only place you get 100% agreement is in a referendum  when putin is conducting it.

SL will make the decision about what he wants or who he wants but in the meantime , I'd just like to see Nige making progress and whilst that isnt happening, I'll continue to say it as I see it. In the meantime our back and forth is becoming a bit 'ground hog day'!

do you accept any of my points about “progress” in different areas of Nige’s remit or are you “results is pretty much the be-all and end-all”?

The good news is that if I'm wrong then it will be because City are on the up again which is the only thing I want to see

 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

29 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

do you accept any of my points about “progress” in different areas of Nige’s remit or are you “results is pretty much the be-all and end-all”?

Absolutely-he accepted a poison chalice. He has had to make some hard decisions and has made progress off the field. He is another Sean O'Driscoll and will probably go the same way due to results on the field .

[E.G.Red]

4 hours ago, Swede said:

World Cup?!? Played in a country with no football culture, with terrible human rights issues, that bribed its way to get selected. Having to be played at a time of the year when its less hot but still too hot and mid season for all competing nations. A total disregard for the athletes competing and the fans watching. It sums up all that is bad about football.

Unfortunately I suspect that if England (or Wales)do well, many of these issues will be forgotten about by the vast majority of fans. 

Edited November 6, 2022 by E.G.Red

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

1 hour ago, IAmNick said:

I think that's partly why people want to know who you think would be a good replacement - we have a lot of boxes we need ticking, encompassing a really varied role compared to the manager/head coach at other clubs. It's a pretty small list imo.

I think me personally putting forward a a new manager is above my pay grade. I don't tend to look at other Managers at other clubs unless they are high profile and in the media. I know a lot about what happens at BCFC but have no idea about the why, how and who of some of our competitors apart from maybe Mark Robins who I always liked and Joey Barton who I always haven't.

[Red_Alligator]

Guess what folks? It's not going well for us and we may well end up in a relegation battle. But then again, we might not. Mid-table finish would be good, anything more a bonus.

It's not going to be much better for a while yet. The club is severely restricted in what it can do (legitimately!) to develop the squad, and this is not going to go away.

The Championship is tough, and it seems to me becomes harder each year - certainly to get out of, if not also to stay in. 

As I've said many times before, the chance WAS there to get into the Premier League, in the early part of SL's ownership, but he chose not to follow the obvious route, which I believe will not be an option again, given the way of the world in general. 

 

[SouthS22]

Its been a very good thread this, with lots of reasoned discussion.  There was the inevitiable slinging of sh*t somewhere in the middle, a little bit of bullying and name calling, but its great to see that its settled into a genuinely interesting and informative debate.  Lots of very good input, on both sides of the discussion, OTIB at its finest!  

[bcfcnick]

I do think NP is doing an excellent job on two or three fronts:-

1) Integrating and developing several young players from the academy and making them prize assets both for the team and potentially stabilising the finances if one (Antoine) or two have to be sold.  Brian Tinnion and the academy staff get plaudits for that as well.

2) Reducing the wage bill and developing a more pleasing on-the-eye way of playing than was evident with quite turgid football under LJ and DH

3) Getting an improved culture and togetherness in all parts of the Club.

The weakness seems to be a lack of success in correcting defensive issues. He was a seasoned central defender, after all. Did he forget to tell Zak he wasn't playing in the centre of the 3  for this game?  The massive space on the right was so blatant, with Zak drifting into the middle, and it continued for a large part of the game and contributed to the equaliser.  Why didn't the coaching staff get a message out? I assume they didn't, or if they did, then it isn't very reassuring to see Zak failing to follow instructions with a step back after some decent performances. Perhaps he was even following instructions. 

He's identified the weakness (defence) and, no doubt, will strengthen it in January.  That must bring better defensive performances and if it doesn't and we become embroiled in a relegation battle then, I agree, it does raise question marks on NP and the coaching staff. 

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Absolutely-he accepted a poison chalice. He has had to make some hard decisions and has made progress off the field. He is another Sean O'Driscoll and will probably go the same way due to results on the field .

My long held view is that someone will ultimately come in and benefit from Nige’s foundation building, a bit like Cotts / LJ…and people will look back and forget what “started the ball rolling in the right direction”.

2 hours ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

I think me personally putting forward a a new manager is above my pay grade. I don't tend to look at other Managers at other clubs unless they are high profile and in the media. I know a lot about what happens at BCFC but have no idea about the why, how and who of some of our competitors apart from maybe Mark Robins who I always liked and Joey Barton who I always haven't.

So, a Mark Robins-type then

I don’t there’d be any complaints if he was to succeed Nige at some point.

[Rob k]

55 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

My long held view is that someone will ultimately come in and benefit from Nige’s foundation building, a bit like Cotts / LJ…and people will look back and forget what “started the ball rolling in the right direction”.

So, a Mark Robins-type then

I don’t there’d be any complaints if he was to succeed Nige at some point.

Robins is a good manager - He’s  been there 5 years, isn’t it amazing what can happen when a managers given some time